 Hello, there it is Monday, July 13th, 2020. My name is Ko Im. I'm the community editor and podcast co-host here at Adweek. And you're tuned in to another episode of Adweek Together, our weekly live series covering the future of something, right? So the future of culture is our topic today. But before we get to our special guests, we want to remind you to sign up for an Adweek subscription to get unlimited access to our essential content and resources. You can learn more at abweek.com slash offer. Today we have from team Epiphany, the managing partners, Coltrane Curtis and Lisa Chu. Hi, guys. Hi. I'm Coltrane. That's Lisa. We could end that. So we are going to first get into who you are and what you do. Wow, you want to start? Well, first we're married. And I started in agency 15 years ago, 16 years ago. But I work for her. So I'm allowed her to start first. So Coltrane started the agency 15, 16 years ago. And as most agencies are, they lie their way to winning the business. And then he doesn't want to do the work. So we were dating at the time. And he was like, hey, wouldn't you want to come to work here and do this work? I was like, I don't know about this. But yeah, that's kind of how we started the business with this guy, George Petita, who helped us out at the time. And they really looked out for us. We were small agencies, poor people sitting around the conference table, one phone, one ethernet cord making it work. And here we are. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a story of just good old American muscle, where you kind of like build something. You become good at it. And you hope that your skill set allows you to kind of earn new opportunities. I think what was really interesting, Lisa really talked about it, but it was like, we were able to barter offer space with bigger agencies, kind of like selling cultural currency to them and in bartering space. And so for the first seven, eight years of our business, literally that relationship happened. And so what we were able to do was really understand that the cost of business is what puts you out of business and being able to mitigate against kind of like those overhead costs and then also being able to give home to some of our creative friends in New York City, knowing the fact that they were either leaving a job or looking for a space to kind of like a creative space. So this is kind of like, we work, right? And we kind of created this kind of like oasis of creativity and safeness in New York City. And the business has grown to be about 30 million size, about 80 employees, New York, LA, and you're looking at the only two owners, right? And so we did it the old school way, right? Like we earned it, right? So yeah. And two people of color, right? Managing this company, like you said, you've grown and survived and hopefully thrived, right? Throughout the years, you have a very diverse makeup in your workforce. I wanna get a little bit deeper into that cultural currency that you're talking about. You had a specific kind of mission and outlook and perspective when you started. And it feels like now, you know, do you feel like you're more valued for the perspective that you bring and then what you do to try to enlighten people, disrupt how things are being done? Yeah, we'll go first real quick. So I'll go. So the first thing is my dad ran an agency for 25 years. We have two kids, Count and Ellington, they're two and eight. And I grew up on my dad's agency and I also knew that that was one of the things that helped create who I am. And so our kids are gonna grow up in our agency. And so I think when you build something, you know, whose goals are a little bit different than a P&L, we wanna create an environment that's not only, you know, influences everything that we do and the work that we do, but also an environment that our kids will actually grow up in. And being of, you know, multicultural descent, she and I both, it was just very important for us to put those different personalities and those different interests and those people who are driving culture in one space to kind of create work. And so for us, we've always been diverse. We don't know how not to be, you know, we're a reflection of our culture and our community. But it was just something that was very important to us from a early age. What do you think? Yeah, I feel like often, especially with big companies, they always make you feel a lot of questions there. When you first win the business, like, what do you do to incorporate diversity into your company? How diverse are you? Like, what are the percentages? What's the breakdown? And my answer is really simply, we don't need to try, we don't have a program. We are who we are, we've always been this way. We've always hired people because they do great work, but we've always hired people that we can relate to, that can relate to our work. It's hard to interact with people who don't get it. And we've tried that before, you know, trial and error a lot over the last 16 years. You know, you hire this person who's like a big wig at this agency and they come over and they totally don't get the work or the culture. We run our company like a family, you know? It's very personal, we take it very seriously, but we also really care about the people. They're not just like a number. We generally care about every baby that's born, every large that happens, every family situation that someone needs to step out for. Like you don't take it as like, oh, okay, we've got persons disposable just because they're not available. And diversity and thought is also just influences all of our pieces of business, right? Like so, you know, when you say bring your whole self to work, like I don't want somebody living like a lie during the middle of the week and living it up on the weekend. I want them to bring their whole self because what their interests are actually influences all of the work that we do. Like, you know, you think about running an agency for 15 years, like I started when I was 30, right? You know, like what I look like at 30, you know, is different, what I look like at 30 is a lot different, right? But like the reality is it's like, it keeps us youthful, it keeps us sharp, it keeps us on not what's happening now but what's happening next. And it's our job to give our clients, you know, a glimpse into the future, not something that they would necessarily read in the times, right? Like if we're reporting the news, then read the news, right? It's for us to kind of predict what the news is going to be writing about and then how can we kind of like take that and then create kind of like branded programs because of that insight. Right, it's okay, but Lisa and I still look, you know, 10 years younger than we are. That's just a joke. But I want to add a little bit of that. So, you know, like- A lot of hair. A lot of hair. You know, I think you now have a lot of case studies to show what having, you know, a culture of diversity and a commitment to diversity, it's just like an unspoken accepted rule or base. For example, I want to bring up recently, you know, you worked on with HBO for Insecure's season four, a block party. And I wouldn't think that unless, you know, you maybe were a super fan of the show and part of the community that you might've come up with idea and executed it in specific ways. How does this example, you know, show the strength of diversity and thought? Yeah, I mean, so the first thing is like, you know, when we launched that, so where we've been working with HBO for eight or nine years now, for a while. And I would just look at ourselves in the extension of their team, you know? We've grown with them, they've grown, you know, but when you really think about block party and community, you know, when we first started working on Insecure four or five years ago, four seasons ago, right? You know, it was, we've been doing block parties for them since inception, you know, it's now just become part of, you know, scripted, it's scripted, right? So season four is really about, you know, ESA and kind of like creating a block party, but year one, we did a block party in Brooklyn, year two, we did a block party in Inglewood, year three, we did a block party, you know, at LAFC for 4,500 people, right? And then we were planning on doing four block parties this year in four different markets. And then, you know, the world literally flipped and we had to pivot to virtual. And so we were one of the first agencies to kind of like take a crack at it. And it literally became kind of the blueprint to follow in terms of how to do it well. And little did we know at the end of the season, we closed the season with a virtual block party too. And so when you're really thinking about community, what is community? Community is not really thinking about self, it's about bringing everyone with you on a voyage by responsibility to your neighborhood, your block to, you know, to, you know, the future of your community. And I think that block party piece was, it's really weird when your strategy becomes kind of like your tagline for it, but when you really think about, you know, the success of Insecure, it's about a community in a village that's great to watch, but it's also behind the camera, the community that East is built, right? And so what we wanted to do was vibe off of that and then kind of create something, but I think the big challenge in a Testament to Lisa's team was the fact that they were able to pivot a traditional, right, I use that word loosely, a traditional production team, and then being able to switch gears quickly and then being able to kind of produce a polydiscipline virtual experience that had everything from performances to, you know, live chats on Twitter with Issa to seeding programs. So when you think about it, you know, you're only able to do that with a team who understands the importance of an Insecure and it's an incredibly diverse team too. Yeah, and Lisa, I wanna ask you about, you know, what other brands, companies can think about when, you know, shifting to virtual, how do you keep the aspect of community and culture in place? Any specific recommendations or, you know, is it really that holistic view from the top that guides strategy and execution? I think it is a holistic view, but I think the brands need to understand who their core audience is and stay true to that. Like Insecure has, in season four, especially such a big following that there's little touch points that you have to stay true to or nothing works. You know, I think a lot of people have pivoted to a virtual something, a party, a cocktail or whatever, tune in. And some of them are great and some of them are just falling a little flat because it doesn't mean anything to the people that they're targeting. And I think that also you have to understand that that audience has to shift with you and tune in virtually. So that is also another push. So I think, you know, the strategy has to stay true to the core of like what the brand is and who the target is. Yeah, let's talk about another example. You know, I think there's a shift in how everyone is really thinking about influencers too. You guys have an upcoming campaign where you're tapping into the new nostalgic cultural, new and nostalgic cultural trend of drive-ins but the influencers are different this time around. What's going on with that culture? Yeah, so top of this year, you know, we won, I would say the biggest piece we've ever won a business which was influencer marketing for Audi, you know? And, you know, we've been working behind the scenes on influencer strategy, not just the individual but the community that they belong to, you know? And, you know, we'd be remiss if we didn't get an opportunity to put an event in the world, right? But who do we know? How do we know that, you know, six months starting the business that, you know, we were producing our first event, you know, through quarantine, you know, through literally, you know, a race revolution that we're having in the country and we're actually producing a drive-in experience, not a movie theater, but a drive-in experience with our Audi client this week in LA where 60 influencers who are actually influential, right? Like, not like a professional influencer, but when you think about the influencers that we're really looking towards now, our frontline workers, and also supporting small black businesses. And so, you know, when you really think about how can we traverse this world that we live in if everybody does their little part. And for ours, it's a little, it's entertainment. It's a little bit of a distraction, right? And so, what we've decided to do is identify 30 small black business owners and 30 frontline workers in LA that we've been kind of like supporting throughout and give them something to look forward to. And so, we're seating them with a vehicle for a weekend, for a week actually, and then they are tasked with the day of the performance to actually go to an undisclosed location in their cars, having a safe socially distanced drive-in performance and Kalani's performance, right? And so, when you really think about it, it's something that is difficult to do under any circumstances. And now, what was easy before is difficult, and what was difficult is impossible, and of course, we think difficult. But for us, it's not impossible. We're really excited about it. But it's really about just the team digging deep, wanting to do something, understanding that the significance of the experience, yes, it's gonna be a great outie piece, but it's also something that helps our culture and our community. And we're, you know, at times I'm always, I struggle with like, who do I work for, right? Is it for the brand? Or is it for the community and culture? And the reality is it's for both. And sometimes we have to answer to community before we answer to brand, and that becomes a really successful, great experience. But that's great when it becomes win-win, right? And the brand see that the community feels that, and you have this overall great kind of ripple effect, which happens with influence and culture and community. You know, you talked about how we need entertainment and also how you've struggled with a variety of things. We all struggled with a variety of things. What are the kind of, you know, in the midst of all this new business and work that we're trying to get out and think about in new ways, what are the difficult conversations that you've been having, whether it's internally or with clients or even, you know, with your community? I mean, I think with our community, it's not a conversation that's new to anyone. I think everyone's been talking about most of their lives. I feel like for some of our clients, not all of our clients, they are asking us to help out, you know, what can they do differently? How can they change things? What can they do to participate? And some people, it's cutting a check. Other people, it's higher within others. It's like, do more, be more, like find something that really, you know, is gonna make a difference for you. And let's just be honest, some brands don't really want to do anything but cut a check. But that's okay too, because you need to cut a check because somebody needs that check, right? So I think it's just different tiers of health. I mean, I've got, and I feel like for our internal group, full training, and I struggled with that for a minute because we didn't know what to say. It was so heart-wrenching and we just didn't have the words and we really, for the first time, had nothing to say on our team meeting. And then we were like, we have to get back to you because there's really, like, we're stuck. Yeah, and I feel like that's okay, you know? Like, I think what we really look to help kind of direct our clients is how we kind of direct ourselves, right? Not knowing what to do is okay as long as you're having a conversation. And we continue to have that conversation, you know, and that conversation led us to, you know, hey, like a lot of our kids, I call them kids because I'm 45 and I work at the agencies around 27. So like, someone could be my kids, but, you know, the kids were protesting, you know, they were peacefully protesting and which we were happy to find out. But what we also realized was that 100% of them have never been arrested. While protesting and doing anything. And so what we really did is we looked deep and we looked at them and it's like, hey, what happens if one of our kids grow up and get, you know, arrested? What will we want to happen for them? And so what we did is we actually, you know, work with our legal counsel, gave everybody one, gave everybody the agency, our home number, our legal counsel cell number, we put money in escrow, and then if anybody was to be arrested, that they can reach out to us 24 hours a day. And you have to help them get out. And what that actually did was that it was very small. It was something that was very specific to us. But if you can help one person out, that's one more person that, you know, is that has the potential of making the world a better place. And so we give our clients the same feedback, right? You know, a lot of them try to move as big as they are. And what we explain to them is that if you move smaller and you roll your sleeves up, that can have greater impact than the big check that you can cut. And so a lot of times we really look inward to execute externally. But honestly, it really just came from counsel with my wife and she was, you know, well, everybody's like, what are you gonna make a statement? You know, I was like, well, you know, our existence is resistance. Our existence is protest. You know, when you think about our agency and what it means and how we're configured, you know, how we're comprised, the fact that we exist is protest, right? And so, you know, the kids were like, we wanna do something. I was like, all right, well, let's listen and figure out how we can support them. And so, you know, one thing led to another thing led to another thing, but everything that we did internally at the agency is now affecting external work that we're doing for fun. Yeah, and I think what you bring up is, you know, listening as leadership, compassionate conversations and also taking anything that's big, right? We learn about this in any project that we do, breaking it down into small steps. So I guess my last question for you guys is, you know, what other maybe advice or example do you want to share? I mean, you know, everybody, you know, like I pitch capabilities three times a day to brands, you know, and, you know, you can't pitch those things and you can't do anything unless you are comprised of really incredible talented people. And when you really look at, like, you know, you're rendered useless without the people that are on your team, you look at them a little bit different. You look at them as family, you look at them as it's, you know, they work with us, but it's our job to be responsible for everything that they work towards, right? Like people work to provide for others and it's not our job to just provide for opportunity for the people that work for us. It's our job to listen and understand why they work and be connected to that level. And, you know, I think that, I would just say that philosophy of running a business is challenging when you're big, right? And so for us, it's challenging now because we've never dreamed that we'd be 80 people, right? But the size isn't what represents or is indicative of a successful agency for us, right? And my wife always keeps me particularly on the right side of these things, right? Because you kind of like lose, I'm winning business. How are we gonna do it? How are we gonna execute it? But why are we doing it? Why do we wanna do it, right? We're doing it because like it galvanizes us. It brings us together. And I think that this time that we're in now, I think one of the hardest things for us is the fact that we just can't go to work. The fact that we are now like literally been living without the people that literally, she and I sit in every single job interview for the last 15 years. These are our friends, these are our family, these are our people. And so for us, not to be able to be connected with them has been really tough. But I would say the biggest thing is respect the people who work for you. And understand what drives them and what makes them good. Because when we have average 10 year team at Tiffany's almost like six years for employees and clients which is unheard of, right? And for us, we don't know any other way. I had to stop like letting people go because I would be the guy that'd be crying in those meetings because I don't wanna let anybody go. But the reality is, I'm connected to everyone. And it really just starts with my wife and making sure that we sit on the right side of things. Because the business can sometimes overshadow the person or piece. I mean, yeah, that's my one advice is the same advice I give to everyone about everything, just be on the right side of life. Like I feel like running a business, there's so many ways to be on the wrong side of life and do people dirty or look at people not as humans but as numbers. And I always tell people during, even when somebody messes up and you're ready to fire them, I'm like, listen, I get it, but we have to be on the right side of life. You can't just kick somebody out the door. Like you have to do right by them. They have a family, they have a life, they have things that they have. Like, and I'm big on karma. Like being Chinese, I'm huge out of karma. Like putting bad things out there will come back on us in so many different ways. So I always tell them like, even if clients are coming at us crazy or doing something crazy, like just try to be on the right side of life. And it will work out, I promise you. The yin and yang of life, of anything like it, right here. Yeah, and kind of like bringing integrity right in between, right? That yin and yang. But I wanna thank you guys, Coltrane Curtis and Lisa Chu from Team Epiphany for spending some time with us. I wish we had more time because this is an important conversation but I really appreciate it and good luck on the campaign this week. Thank you. We'll take that love. I wanna thank our audience for tuning in. I know Brenda was congratulating the team on winning that business and Chelsea said, I'm excited to listen, love the work the agency is producing. Make sure to tune in next week for our conversation about the future of audio with Julie Clark from Spotify. And in the meantime, we can unlock essential content and resources from Adweek with a pro subscription at adweek.com slash offer. For Adweek, I'm Co-M, have a great week.