 It's a given Thursday and this is Global Connections. I'm Jay Fidel and on the other end we have Carlos Juarez and he's in Mexico City today. Hi Carlos. Hello Jay, Aloha. It's great to connect with you and obviously try to make some sense of this rather remarkable global protest movement that is just unfolding. And so we're here to talk about that. How do we make sense of this pretty mass. So interesting when we were shaping the show, I wrote you and said Carlos, what would you like to talk about? And I didn't see your email to me and I suggested we talk about global protest. But then I didn't see your email to me, which exactly said the same thing. Jay, what do you think we should talk about global protest? Brainwaves. Yes, yes, yes. We're in sync and of course, yeah, I mean, it is just remarkable. Many continents everywhere from Lebanon to Chile to Barcelona, Algeria, obviously continued in Hong Kong now for months. And while each of these places has their own, maybe particular spark or issue in their own context, we want to maybe tease out and think about are there some commonality, some common issues. And here, let me suggest there are certainly a few things that we've through a lot of these various protest movements. We'll discuss them individually on one hand, but what are some common issues? Well, I would tell you a few, one of them is inequality, a growing frustration everywhere, more awareness of deepening inequality and it takes different forms in different places, maybe closely related to that. It's just the issue of corruption and awareness of a lot of, you know, public officials and more, you know, maybe openness to this and help facilitated by a lot of social media that helps to disseminate this. As well, we see in some cases the very critical issue of political freedoms that are being challenged, maybe either you can see it as steps back in terms of democracy or just concerns in a place like Hong Kong for months now, concerns over what role Beijing wants to maybe tighten the screws on them, sparked by an extradition issue, but now taking on a different level. And maybe lastly, although not connected to most of these, but in a few cases, we saw in the past month, the groundswell of protests related to climate change and environmental issues, again, driven mostly by very young, young protest movements. Of course, Greta Boenberg, the young Swedish girl who mobilized literally last month, millions of people to a global climate strike and in many ways demanding urgent action, not just protesting, but recalling on governments to do something. But back to the outset, and maybe I want to turn to you for maybe helping unravel some of the questions, but this question of inequality on one hand, it's as much a criticism of globalization, globalism, because while it has brought prosperity and benefits and interconnectedness, I think a growing sense that there's a small elite that seems to be garnering most of those benefits. And I'm looking, for example, at the case in Santiago, Chile, a quite dramatic set of protest, violent, destructive, some of the infrastructure there. And, you know, it was sparked by a rise in price of, let's say, the public transport, the metro, but it's a lot deeper than that. It really is a sense that here's a country that for decades has been the model in Latin America, very high growth rates, and maybe getting close to exiting the developing world status. But in fact, also an awareness that it's deeply, I think data showing it's got deep levels of inequality, income inequality, so those benefits are concentrated. And today here we are seeing in the streets of Santiago of visions of what we didn't see since the days of Augusto Pinochet in the 70s. Tanks in the street, tear gas, military, you know, and so we've got a picture here, that's a site there of Santiago, Chile, quite a dramatic set of issues in the government now, trying to step back and negotiate, but with the facing a crisis of legitimacy. Then we can turn to another picture, other side of the world in Barcelona, Spain, we've got a massive groundswell there. Now that's a particular situation. It's obviously a protest against the recent jailing of some of the separatist leaders of Catalonia, the Catalan Republic, that they're seeking. They were basically nudged out by the government. This is also a polarized environment there because deeply divided in Spain, whether they should provide autonomy or full independence. And of course, even in Barcelona, deep division there, but very emotional. Then we can turn to another one and we saw just in these past days, dramatic protest movement in Lebanon, in Beirut, a picture here in the downtown, it's where hundreds of thousands of people, basically again challenging the situation there, a revolt over the government taxation on something as simple as what's up, these social media that are so used everywhere in the world. And that was yet the spark because here again, Lebanon, a country that now has very complex social fabric, came out of a civil war decades ago. And today you have maybe awareness that the richest 3,000 people in this country earn 10% of the national income. So they're doing quite well. The political leaders, a lot of corruption benefiting themselves. And the public is finding economic scarcity, difficulty getting basic electricity and water. And yet here's a country that has wealth and has a very wealthy elite. But maybe through, again, more awareness through social media, a growing frustration about that. I think the final, we've got another picture I think of Lebanon. This is, I'm sorry, this next final picture here shows us in London, where of course we've had at different times, a rising protest and maybe both ways about the Brexit drama that continues to play out. That's a separate story. We'll maybe revisit here in a couple of weeks. But what I wanted to show this picture because it underscores the youth population that is really getting very angry and frustrated. And again, these protest movements, even we're not seeing them on the headlines today, but the recent developments in the last months in Paris, France and other parts of France, the so-called yellow vests, it takes on a different dimension. That is the whole system, the corruption, the inequality or maybe political freedom. So there you have it. It's a complex set of issues. Maybe as we move ahead, what are some common issues beyond that? And I wonder, maybe let me let you... Well, I don't have to add to your list, Carlos. I mean, we started a couple of months ago, a little more with the Monacaia protests. A lot of people for a small state like Hawaii, a lot of people were up there committing themselves, investing their time, their energy into protesting the telescope. Which is hard to justify in a progressive analysis, but there they are. And then we find right now today, I don't know if you follow all of this, but we have two wind turbine protests going on, two of them in Oahu. And people are out there, and if you had a look at the faces, you might find some of the same faces from the Monacaia protests. And they're trying to stop and they're doing a borderline of violence. A lot of people have been arrested. They're trying to stop the transportation of these turbines to be used in wind farms. That's right here. The little, tiny Hawaii has got three major protests and maybe more coming. I suspect there will be more coming. And then just a couple of days ago, you look at Congress. Congress already has a protest inside of Congress. That's got to be a first. That's never happened before. These guys are making a good, go ahead. Let me correct you. I think it's not a protest. I think it's a circus, a strange, you know, but indeed. Yeah, I mean, maybe a different form of protest and disobedience. We're speaking of the Republican protest, trying to hold off the impeachment inquiry. Three possibilities here, Carl. Let me throw a match and see how you react. Number one is, you know, it reminds me of a book called Smart Mob, a Smart Mobs, back in around 2000, 2001 or 2002. I got a name, Reinhold, as I remember. And he wrote about mobs that gathered in large squares in Europe and would protest something. And of course, he connected it with the internet. In those days, it was just email, not social media. But you couldn't have a mob descend on a city square, you know, which was empty a minute before. And now it has 100,000 people. You couldn't do that without some kind of electronic gathering mechanism. And of course, we're way beyond that now. And likewise, all the photographs you've shown of these large crowds, and I suppose I could go back to Tinaman, too, back when that was 1989 or 90. Thirty years. Yeah. You know, you can't have a big crowd come down in one place so quickly without communicating with them. So what we have is social media has got to be involved in every one of these things. And then of course, they're playing to the media. They're doing it so they can be reported on social media and conventional media both. They want to have some face. They want some attention and they get it. And finally, it seems to me that we live in a time where we have global culture points. This is a global culture point, is if you're unhappy about something, you know, get out in the street, make yourself known. And so, you know, it's kind of viral and it goes around the world. And you know, even though they're not all listening to our show together, Carlos, I know there'll be more of this. And if we regroup next week, there'll be another few of them. And after that, another few of them, it's almost like, you know, the virus is affecting the functionality of these countries. And they go dysfunctional because of the protests. I have other theories too, but I just want to throw that at you and see what you think. Well, I mean, you're touching on what is really, I think, a thread passing through all of these. And it is the use of social media, these new technologies. They are a double-edged sword. On one hand, they help us to create awareness, to describe and discuss, you know, things, hold, you know, officials accountable. And of course, mobilize logistically. Get people, like you said, into the square through social media. Yet, the other side is, we've also seen clearly again and again, the manipulation, the, you know, the ability of, gosh, anybody practically. It could be a kid in a garage at Cleveland who's got some capacity to infiltrate, get data. We're seeing, I mean, even today, I think Zuckerberg of Facebook is testifying in Congress and being challenged about, you know, what is the role of these media, you know, entities. So there's the social media aspect. And again, it's a mixed busing. And I can remember way back in the early days where we were, of the idea, this is going to democratize the world. It's going to help, you know, mobilize. Yes, there is that. And yet, there's the other darker side, the sinister use. I also think it reflects maybe the challenge and the frustration with democracy. Democracy is both, you know, require information and the participation and citizen engagement. But they can also, you know, majorities can sometimes be cruel or democracies can lead to outcomes often that are challenged and more and more we see that. And again, the use of media just to shape public opinion to distract public opinion to put so much out there that it just muddies the waters. And, you know, we also have more and more research showing us that people are more inclined to simply look at and read the things that reinforce their biases. They're not getting like, as you well know, a generation ago, we had several decent good sources of information and you could everybody was talking the same dialogue, reading the same information. Now, especially more and more with the polarization, you're just looking at one angle, one perspective, and quickly refusing to accept the other side. And so you've got different realities going on there and facts that are facts, but they can be seen very differently, very frustrating for those of us to, you know. But as you said, you know, the common denominator here is that people are dissatisfied with status quo. And that means they're dissatisfied with the government as it exists. They don't think the government is listening to them. They don't think a government is doing the right thing by them. And part of the problem I think is education and they don't understand the way governments can or should work. It is especially poignant in this country where government is representative and we're supposed to have all these checks and balances. And we are part of the government. The government is part of us. We're all together in this thing and in our republic and our democracy. It reminds me of Ben Franklin coming out of Liberty Hall after the Constitution was written and a woman was waiting for him. It was in secret. And a woman was waiting for him outside. And she said, Dr. Franklin, Dr. Franklin, what kind of a government are we going to have? And he said, and I quote, he said, a republic, madam, if you can keep it. So it requires education. It requires an effort in the part of everybody in the social compact. And I suggest to you, Carlos, that the social compact here and elsewhere is breaking down. People don't understand it's a compact and that they have obligations and continue and to improve and to participate, engage in government. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it underscores the idea of this notion of democracy. It's imperfect. It's problematic. But it's really one of the best options we have for addressing questions of fairness and equality and justice. And yet people are frustrated because democracy doesn't seem to be working. And it's also not the thing that you just get it and you put it on the shelf and there you have it and it keeps working. You have to continually be fighting for it, addressing grievances and issues. Moreover, leaders, I think, again and again, we see evidence that obviously power corrupts and leaders everywhere and even in democratic systems, find themselves abusing power, maybe distorting information and doing anything to stay in office. And that becomes embarrassing where at the end of the day politicians are only interested in their political survival, not not the public interest or values that interest maybe society. So that's a big challenge for all of us. So we're seeing it. It's under the radar. It's being exploded at local levels. And yet there's also this maybe growing awareness of when you see things happening in other places. And it probably provides added incentive. It mobilizes people. Either emulate, look at tactics, maybe, you know, harness the media attention. So here we are speaking about all these things happening simultaneously. And yes, they have their own story, but they're also. It's a common denominator. And don't forget the fun factor. When I say the fun factor, I mean, you know, a fellow turns to his girlfriend says, Hey, it's Saturday night. There's a protest downtown. Why don't we spend a little, let's not go to the movies tonight. And I remember back in the day I was with Hawaii Public Radio. And there was a protest. I don't if you remember, there's a protest at University of Hawaii around you are you are university affiliate research. It was for the benefit of military secret. Yes, yes, yes. So they occupied McLean's office. The kids went there and they sat there and they had their potato chips and left the wrappers all around. It was really a mess. And McLean left, you know, he wasn't there. But the newspapers. So I sent an intern up there to report back. And he went with a little tech recorder and he went he went down there and I don't ask one question. Ask everybody in the room one question. The question was, why are you here? And most of them had no answer to that. There's free pizza or something. Well, actually, I think the protest yesterday, I was reading a description of the Republicans in Congress where they brought in pizzas, eventually chicken. And eventually when the food ran out, okay, people got tired and moved on and after five hours they left. Well, you know, let me take us to one last picture that we have because of course the drama that's been unfolding in Hong Kong now for many, many, many weeks, literally months. Of course, it was sparked by concerns over the extradition, a law that would extradite criminals to mainland China. But now it's taken on other things. But I show you here a chart that came out recently in the social media, Hong Kong protest gear, summer 2019. A very sophisticated look at how basically, you know, you've got these heavy construction helmets to protect against bullets and tear gas, you've got heat resistant gloves to throw back the canisters. These are pretty well sophisticated, organized and interesting in Hong Kong today. It's almost like you've said, it's almost become ritualized where you've got very many layers of society. You know, the nurses and doctors are all engaged. They, you know, some of them sleep in the day and they work at night to deal with protesters that are injured. You've got, you know, taxi drivers mobilizing people. So it's almost a very sophisticated, logistical story. And again, just with Hong Kong, you can see these are not the protesters of, you know, past years or maybe China in the 1930s or 40s. Here they are now carrying out, you know, very specialized and, you know, probably people making business from this, the umbrella protesters. Yes, of course. That brings us to a very interesting question. You know, in the case of China, the PRC has been sort of waiting them out. They haven't done anything really violent or grotesque. There are complaints about what they've done with the police have done in Hong Kong, but, you know, it's not like Tiananmen. And you wonder, OK, that seemed like a good strategy, except it hasn't worked yet because the protesters are still out there with all this gear, those increasingly sophisticated, you know, methodologies. But what does the government do? You mentioned a number of places where we have, you know, pretty robust protests and in each place, you know, there's the possibility of giving in. That certainly exists in Manakea and in the other, you know, protests here in Hawaii, one of which I forgot to mention is the Sherwood Forest protests where they want a city wants to build a park. There's a protest against building a park. It's hard to believe. But it's a bad idea, yeah. Anyway, my point, though, is one possibility is to hear the protesters as if they were like testifying in your legislative proceeding and listen to them and act on them and somehow make it possible to, you know, exceed to their demands or find a way to soften the problem they describe. There are other possibilities, too. There's rubber bullets, there's truncheons, there's tear gas and there's real bullets. And I think we see different approaches in different cities where these protests are popping up. Do you have any thoughts about what the ideal response is? Is there one ideal response or is it to have to suit the situation or what? Yeah, no, no, I'd be reluctant to say there's a, you know, there's a one approach that's going to solve this because, again, based on the political culture and the content, I mean, look at after the Tiananmen Square 30 years ago, China wants to be very careful not to find itself, you know, cracking down on those protesters. And yet in other places, yeah, it may take on different forms. I think, in the end, it has to sit down and see a civil society that is, and the strategy of taking a draconian hard line, it carries a heavy risk of legitimacy for the leaders. Obviously, the scrutiny and the use of, you know, these cell phone technologies now that can put immediately onto the news, you know, any news or ordinary measures. It is, I think the real solution is you've got to confront them and come down and dialogue. There's no other way. What we're seeing in many places is, of course, a reversal of whatever sparked it, but that's not sufficient. And these protests go on. Maybe other things like, okay, they are moving on to looking at issues like complete universal suffrage and independent inquiry into the police brutality. And so like it takes on a life of its own different dimensions. It may have started with one initial thing, but and yet at the same time, there does come a point where, you know, and for the authorities, you wait it out. If you reach a point of exhaustion and get there, there's no easy answer to that. Ultimately, I think the legitimacy of the governments, they've got no option but to sit down and talk and open a dialogue and give a voice to these very powerful social movements coming from below. However, legitimate, maybe some of them very much, maybe others that are smart. Yeah. I think it becomes a real problem if you don't do the right thing, because, you know, the crowd can get worse. And while the crowd is in the streets, the economy of that city, that country, usually it's in a capital city, you know, is declining. And take Venezuela, for example. You know, there was a report recently about how Venezuela, you know, medicine is down, food is down, water is down, the economy is down, and he's not doing anything to deal with them. And the result is that the whole country is dysfunctional, and there will be long term problems come out of this, no matter what happens. There's no good answer at the end of the road. So he must deal with them if he wants to save the country. Yeah, no. And I think that's the challenge that we see. These are no simple, easy solutions. They're complex issues. There are root causes that can't be solved immediately. But obviously people demand, they want, you know, they want some heads to roll, they want some better, you know, governance. They want leaders that are going to be more responsive. And so I think, again, it will vary by different societies. I mean, some places have maybe a tradition of more open or even a place like France. I mean, or France protest is ingrained in their M.O. And so, and yet these most recent ones, those that we've mentioned, have taken on a different dimension, more driven by this economic imperative, the frustration of inequality that seems to be just so pervasive. And that anxiety, again, it festers, it lingers. And look at the young new generation today growing up in this world of uncertainty, of chaos, deeply interdependent. But also that same interdependence means that the anger, the protest, the frustration is also in some ways a global issue that permeates everybody. Let me return to something that we started out with, namely social media, because that evokes Facebook and Zuckerberg testifying right now. And it evokes Cambridge Analytica and it evokes what happened in the 2016 election. And what presumably, according to Mueller, is still happening and will happen in the 2020 election. And so we know that the Internet Research Agency, operated by Putin, has the ability with the help of Cambridge Analytica and Facebook to divide. In fact, Facebook was involved in the Brexit vote and they divided people. There was also some country in the Caribbean. You've got to look at this movie called The Great Hack, where some whistleblowers came out of Facebook and told you what they had done, rather Cambridge Analytica, and told you what they had done and how they had a party each time they messed up some country's election. So it's possible to divide people right to the point of messing up an election and creating this kind of device of this. And so it's an inevitable suspicion for me that somebody is doing this from far away. Carlos, could it be one great big coincidence that you can identify half a dozen cities that are all in flame? Or could it be that somebody is actually lighting the tinder here and creating the argument? Well, it is and it leads to, again, a lot of the concern and maybe, you know, in some circles, conspiracy theories that take it to a different level. Also, I think what it underscores is that for government officials in every place, all these places, they really have to be quite aggressive and try to be one step ahead, because if you're missing the vote, if you're not engaged, you can easily be manipulated, taken advantage of, and yet there's no easy way around doing that either. Governments, I guess what I'm saying there is they have to both be vigilant, try to address and look at this proliferation of fake news, bad news, polarizing news. How do you respond? I mean, I can only say, and I don't know this issue in great detail, that you really need to have people who understand how to get in there quickly and help shape that narrative. Unfortunately, that's one of the roles that the media has always been an important, maybe, I guess, tool that governments need. They needed to defend their policies to put out their information. Obviously, they could manipulate it as well, and that's the other concern. But failure to engage or be part of the process will, I think, leave governments more and more weakened, and the narrative will be shaped by others with different motives, different intentions. You know, you're talking before about what a government might do in order to soften a protest somehow, I mean, either bitcholade or try violence, all kinds of things that will cause a spectrum. But one possibility, I think, that very few governments have actually tried is to get on the circuit, on the social media circuit, and try to explain what is really happening here. Talk to the same people who are getting a device of messages and give them a different message, give them a message which will help them understand. For some reason, I don't think the U.S. government does that, but of course the U.S. government is in shambles right now, so we can't really count for that now, but other places, yeah. But let me maybe clarify that. I mean, the U.S. government does, and maybe I'm not speaking here about Donald Trump and his tweets, but the reality is, for example, around the world, our diplomatic posts, our embassies and consulates, they have people who are focused and dedicated to this public diplomacy, helping connect with, you know, the communities they're in and through social media shape the message, the narrative, to put out basically a perspective that, you know, maybe trying to clarify or what have you. And I'm, you know, many of my own former students who work in this foreign service, the diplomacy are engaged in that trying to, again, you have an option but to do that and it means being with the people it means meeting with, you know, student movements social movements, NGOs to put out a message of maybe clarifying things that are absolutely false or off the mark and maybe providing otherwise good information for everybody. So it's happening, it's happening at the micro level and again, across our diplomatic service. I know that for sure. Obviously, other countries maybe are also trying to deal with it in different ways. Some were successful than others. Most of what we see is not a lot of success. Instead, it seems to be driven by, I guess, you know, interests that are not clearly defined or the darker perspective, you know, that we have people manipulating it from this. What was the name you call it? Internet research agency. Research agency, of course, with ties there. Even here in Mexico this past year, they had quite a drama play out with a revelation that North Koreans were hacking into the banking system here in Mexico. North Korea again, you know, obviously, they're a bizarre country but they've got expertise enough to put people behind computers to find ways to, who knows, you know, carry out some sinister interventions there. So this is the challenge that we're in and unfortunately, again, for governments, they have to be addressing this issue of cybersecurity, cyber warfare, cyber, you know, even just the use of social media to help explain and promote, you know, the interest or the foreign policy of any country. You know, but the old Chinese phrase keeps coming to mind. We live in interesting times, Carlos. Yes. And you know, the thing about it is it's not just academic. It's not just at a distance. It's not just that we're watching the ballgame. We are in the ballgame. And sooner or later, it's going to affect everyone. This kind of global protest revolution, you and I have to keep watching, okay? And I hope we can do a show like this again along the same lines and sort of regroup and see what other cities have gotten into the same issue. Well, thank you, Carlos. This is not going to wait. Yes. It's not going to wait. Thank you, Jay. I hope to see you soon. Take care. Bye-bye, Mexico City. Aloha. Take care. Bye-bye. Candios.