 Thanks very much indeed Mike and thank you Vice Chancellor for reasons that you can all well understand I suppose I'm slightly don't normally get nervous when I'm speaking at all Don't mind who's in the audience tonight though. I think you're testing my limits a little bit with that Brian Could I also acknowledge the heads of mission in the room your Excellencies Also a professor Sally Wheeler and professor and a more it's it's great to be back on campus I must say for the second time this week in this lecture theater, but it was it was very good on Tuesday And I'm sure it'll be just as good tonight I too want to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which we're meeting and pay my respects to our oldest past and present And I think I'm sure this I can't I thought hard about it. I want to suggest that the Indigenous Indigenous Australians may well have the world's oldest continuing Cosmology and that of course is another reason for our deep respect Thank you to the United Nations Association of Australia ACT division and to a new centre for international and public law For giving me the opportunity this evening to speak about the international dimensions of Australia's growing interests in space as We mark the beginning of World Space Week an International celebration of science and technology First declared by the UN General Assembly in 1999 It is fitting that I make my first public remarks as DFAT secretary on space Here at an event organised by the UN Association of Australia Dedicated as it is to work on behalf of the United Nations to promote its aims and ideals Although I am by no means an expert on space in preparing this public lecture I found myself reaching back into my filing cabinet for an earlier speech I made on space much earlier in fact it was 1991 at the 47th session of the United Nations General Assembly in the special political committee And I was making a statement as the Australian representative under item 72 international cooperation in the peaceful uses of outer space Actually Pull the thing out. This is how we did it then I've still got it. I was a youngest diplomat Newly promoted to councillor and speaking for the first time in a multilateral setting on behalf of my country The setting the UN and the subject the peaceful uses of outer space made a deep impression on me So much so that I kept the hard copy and of course there were no soft copies then The Cold War was over That year speaker after speaker in the general debate Conveyed a sense of renewed confidence in the United Nations system and its ability to tackle issues of global and regional concern There was a focus on the role of preventive diplomacy in identifying and diffusing threats to our collective security It was international space here and on behalf of Australia I welcomed the conclusion after 13 years of Negotiations on a set of principles relevant to the use of nuclear power sources in outer space. I Made a rather obvious point about there being much still to do to develop international cooperation in the peaceful uses of outer space and About the need to ensure the benefits were shared by all countries and all peoples We needed to be alert to the costs as well as the benefits I said and we needed to engage in what I called preventive outer space diplomacy the diplomats among you will know that this was a Particular focus of that period Let me now fast forward though to 2018 and make another rather obvious point as the international agenda becomes more crowded more complex and more Contested the United Nations only becomes more important to Australia Australia's interests are strongly served by acting with others to support a rules-based international order This was a central point in the foreign policy white paper that the Australian government launched last December But international institutions with the United Nations at their centre carry an increasing load They must grapple with new technologies Engage more participants in international affairs Manage new dimensions for rivalry and cooperation and often they must cope with a renewed intensity in that rivalry The space agenda certainly bears that out as I will explain But of course space is also a domain the iconic domain of opportunity and scientific advance Space arouses or in some and for many Wonder at the sheer scale and beauty of the universe and our Temerity in venturing to understand as Brian Schmidt has done to such stunning effect and explore it Yet at the same time our use of space is becoming an essential part of our everyday business and Increasingly a key to the innovation that will keep Australian businesses internationally competitive Today nurturing and protecting our interests in space is core business for the Australian government. I Believe it is vital that a wide range of Australians from science industry Defense as well as government agencies Understand our interests in space and how they play into our wider international interests So I'm very glad to be here with you tonight. I will set out Australia's advantages and growing interests in space and touch on the contribution that Australia's space agency will make to Australia's international interests including through the power of innovation and inspiration I Will also discuss Australia's international interests in space in the context of the foreign policy agenda that we set out in the white paper When many Australians think of space, they'll think of the dish the Rob Sitch movie from the year 2000 The movie is worth remembering just for the title a great pun and for Sam Neal's acting excellent as always But it's also a good starting point for our discussion It tells the story of those Australians at honeysuckle Creek and parks who were the first to see Neil Armstrong Walk on the moon on the 20th of July 1969 They helped produce the vision and they helped bring the first moonwalk to the world Australians were on the front line then and we still are Geographically, we are exceptionally well placed to play a leading role in international collaboration on space and the only Continent in the southern hemisphere between the vast Indian and Pacific Oceans Our enormous interior desert is a gift to astronomy and it will keep on giving As the square kilometer array comes online Our crystal-clear skies are just as useful for near-range earth to space communications We also have the world-class science and advanced manufacturing capabilities We need to invent build and maintain infrastructure and programs The Australian government is making the most of these advantages over the next four years Geoscience Australia will invest $225 million to test and develop a satellite based Augmentation system with the aim of making reliable positioning data accurate to 10 centimeters Available in every corner of Australia Areas with mobile coverage will have access to positioning data accurate to three centimeters This precision has the benefit as the potential to benefit every industry and business that needs to move objects well Docking an ocean line or a landing a Royal flying doctor service plane Helping farmers reduce costs improving safety on construction and mining sites Practical people all over the country will use this technology to solve problems and improve the way they do things This is the lifeplug of innovation and economic growth Innovation is flourishing in Australia in the space sector itself We've had a history of grasping opportunities in space We launched our first satellite from Woomera in 1967 Using a redstone sparta rocket left over from a combined US-UK and Australia testing program With this event Australia became the third nation to launch a satellite from our own territory the tempo of our space activity is picking up again today in 2016 cube rider a member of Australia's Delta V space Alliance made history by sending the first-ever Australian payload to the International Space Station and Last year a consortium of Australian universities launched three Australian built research CubeSats into orbit These were Australian made spacecraft traveling into space the first since 2002 Importantly Australians are at the forefront of developing better more affordable ways to use satellites CSIRO's 200 million dollar venture Capital firm main sequence ventures has invested in a number of space-related startups one of these Myriota Founded by two researchers from the University of South Australia is commercializing satellite technology developed within the university's Institute for telecommunications research It's a great example of an Australian company turning clever technology into a successful business The company uses small low-cost transmitters on low-earth satellites to send small packets of data Across an internet of things network The satellites and sensors are then able to talk to one another without the need for expensive infrastructure Back here on the ground With its low cost and long battery life the company's satellite technology Could allow them to apply direct to orbit connectivity on a massive scale One real-world example being trialed would help farmers get up-to-date information on water tank levels You drop a sensor in a water tank the data flows from sensor to satellite and then with an app on a phone To a farmer anywhere in Australia who can monitor just how much water is in their tank without having to physically go and check The company is aiming to reduce the expensive fees of existing satellite technology bringing real-world benefits to working people Another application is in the field of defence Last year myriota and technology company. I measure you Received funding from the government's next generation technologies fund to develop a wearable black box type flight recorder for the Australian Army The flight recorders use myriota's technology for emergency beaconing to help locate and aid injured soldiers Fully developed it could also provide benefits for other physically demanding occupations such as emergency services or law enforcement Myriota will be launching their commercial direct-to-orbit internet of things connectivity So that list the solution related to that this year But as their journey so far from an idea at a university to a technology company that recently raised over 19 million dollars from Boeing shows The future is bright for Australians engaging in science and innovation in space Examples like these show why space is core business State governments are getting behind it the space innovation front in South Australia being just one example In addition to encouraging and nurturing all of this activity and potential the government is also setting in place the institutions and policies we need to coordinate and protect our interests in space The centerpiece of these efforts as many of you will know is the establishment of as an Australian space agency The agency will be responsible for whole of government coordination of civil space matters And will be the primary source of advice to government on civil space policy a number of our cities are interested in hosting the agency headquarters pointing to the Significant space resources and capability each of them possess The space agency will drive further innovation across the economy and will complement our defence export strategy One of its six objectives is to inspire Australians to embrace the potential of space as an astronomer Before he became a vice-chancellor Brian Schmidt identified that the expansion of the universe was accelerating and won a Nobel Prize Could there be a more inspiring example for our young scientists? The time is ripe for breakthroughs just as dramatic in our understanding of how we can use and protect our space environment Curiosity and the determination to test and advance our thinking is a great source of national strength The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is is absolutely committed to Contestability and innovation in all that we do Particle physicist Dr. Sarah Pearson leads the way as both our chief innovation officer and newly appointed chief scientist I'm delighted at the prospect of science and technology enterprise and innovation becoming a more prominent part of Australia's international profile a Push that is now behind at the rocket fuel of an Australian space agency led by Dr. Megan Clark For which international engagement is a high priority, of course as it was to for Megan When she was chief executive of Cyro In August the Minister for Industry Science and Technology Karen Andrews signed a memorandum of understanding with the French Space Agency and the government is in discussions with Canada the UK the United States and the European Space Agency Just last week the Australian Space Agency signed a memorandum of strategic intent with the European manufacturing giant Airbus and Yesterday it entered into memoranda of understanding with counterpart agencies in Canada and the United Kingdom DFAT will liaise closely with the Space Agency in our international engagement on civil space issues a core part of our wider foreign policy agenda All nations jealously guard their access to space and it should come as no surprise that the major powers are jostling for influence in setting the rules in the face of complexity and Uncertainty as the 2017 foreign policy white paper made clear We must seek opportunity while protecting our interests a great deal is at stake for Australia As you've already heard and it's vital that we protect our access to space We do this by continuing to strengthen our capabilities through our alliance with the United States and Also by strengthening international frameworks and rules for the use of space in the defence domain both Australia and the United States benefit from improved space Situational awareness by the relocation of significant US surveillance assets Seaband radar from Antigua and soon the space surveillance telescope from New Mexico to the Harold E. Holt communication station in Western Australia We will need to be more active internationally on space if we are to continue to reap the economic and strategic benefits as This audience well knows the outer space environment is changing and it's changing rapidly Space is democratizing and the barriers to accessing space are tumbling as the sector is disrupted by technology That is far cheaper to build launch and maintain There's been a large uptick in the number of states that have become space-faring nations Seeking the same societal and economic benefits the established space players have enjoyed almost exclusively There are approximately now 60 nations and government consortia that own and operate satellites There are many research and commercial activities developing and deploying Micro and small satellites in low-earth orbit Of course just like in terrestrial domains Increased activity poses considerable challenges to the finite resources of the spectrum and the available orbital slots and more activity unfortunately means more space debris something I described as a new issue in 1991 certainly no longer the case there are now somewhere in the order of 23,000 man-made objects larger than 10 centimeters in orbit and over 100 millions of pieces of debris less than 1 millimeter Even sub millimeter debris pose a realistic threat to space-based assets due to the high impact speeds in space More space debris means rising costs for commercial and severe civil activities in space Principally through more collision avoidance manoeuvres that in turn reduce the operating lifespan of satellites Space debris also makes managing orbital traffic more challenging Without doubt the most serious causes of space debris are anti-satellite missile tests and On-orbit collisions which can have strategic consequences All of this change is occurring under an international framework of treaties that was built in a very different technological and strategic environment The current legal regime for outer space is based on the five UN space treaties The most recent the moon agreement dates from the 1980s Australia is a state party to all five treaties The 1967 outer space treaty is the cornerstone of the legal regime It prohibits the placement of weapons of mass destruction in outer space or on celestial bodies But there are currently few limits on the deployment of conventional weapons in outer space or On ground-based anti-satellite weapons or on activities that directly or indirectly Create space debris It is estimated that China's 2007 test of an anti-satellite missile which collided with and destroyed a non-operational Chinese weather satellite Generated a cloud of more than three part three thousand pieces of debris This cloud is the largest ever tracked and much of it will stay in orbit for decades Posing a significant collision threat to artists to other space objects For a number of years efforts have been underway in the United Nations and other foro to build on the current treaty network and Enhance the security and stability of outer space The conference on disarmament has a standing agenda item on the prevention of an arms race in outer space And there is also work in the International Telecommunications Union Which oversees orbit registration and bandwidth and of course the world meteorological organization also But different countries have different and conflicting initiatives and approaches to space security issues Russia and China are promoting a draft treaty on the prevention of the placement of weapons in outer space in the proposal State parties would commit to refrain from placing objects carrying any type of weapon into orbit Installing weapons on celestial bodies and threatening to use force against objects in outer space Russia also promotes the no first placement initiative where countries pledged not to be the first to place weapons in space Both of these initiatives though would provide limited comfort and could have counterproductive consequences By allowing unfettered development of terrestrial and dual use counter space systems While Australia is in favor of the prevention of an arms race in outer space. We do not support either of these initiatives The draft treaty on banning weapons in outer space Appears to be at least as much about strategic maneuvering as meaningful arms control And there are two fundamental issues with both of these proposals First they fail to provide a workable definition of space weapon Second they also fail to provide a verification mechanism to determine whether weapons have been placed in space Any manoeuvrable space object is a potential weapon in crude terms. They become space battering rams Some of you may be aware of the US statement on space security at the conference on disarmament in August this year This statement was sharply critical of Russian space related activity and of Russia's no first placement Resolution and its proposed treaty on the prevention of the placement of weapons in outer space The US official assistant Secretary of State for arms control verification and compliance Ileem Poblete called attention to Russia's evolving anti-satellite weapons program Including its announcement of the development of a mobile attack anti-satellite system and deployment of a mobile laser system I recall driving on my way to work and listening to That element of her speech because it was it was run on Fran Kelly's breakfast program I mean it immediately attracted interest and a number of you may have heard it also but Assistant Secretary Poblete also referred to detection of unusual maneuvers by a Russian satellite in October 2017 The Russians claim this maneuvering was for inspection purposes of other satellites But Assistant Secretary Poblete claimed it exhibited very abnormal behavior for such a function and noted the challenges of verification Poblete did not directly refer to this as a possible test of an orbital anti-satellite weapon rather. She emphasized and I quote We don't know for certain what it is and there is no way to verify it end quote She said and I quote again Russian intentions with respect to this satellite were unclear and were obviously a very troubling development Particularly when considered in concert with statements by Russia's Space Force commander That assimilating new prototypes of weapons into Space Forces military units was a main task Facing the aerospace force forces space troops end quote Australia agrees that there is legitimate doubt and no way to verify the Russian satellites true purpose We share US concerns and recognize that we need to work with the US and others To maintain our access to space over the longer term It is these problems of verification and dual use capability that make credible arms control in outer space such a challenge Ostensibly civilian satellites can disguise malign purposes This raises an obvious question. Do we need a treaty? Well in addressing these and other issues the question is whether legally binding agreements or the approach Australia and others favor of developing non-binding norm building transparency and confidence building measures or TCBMs offer the best way to enhance space security Australia is long focused our international engagement on encouraging Responsible and peaceful uses of outer space particularly through the creation of such measures The value of TCBMs is clear They provide pragmatic voluntary actions through which governments can address challenges and share information With the aim of creating mutual understanding and reducing tensions Over time states develop habits patterns and norms of international behavior Transparency and confidence building measures do not limit any states use of outer space for people's for peaceful purposes As codified in the outer space treaty Nor do they impose requirements that might act as a barrier to the space activities of developing countries On the contrary transparency and information sharing help preserve the space environment in the interests of all countries This was recognized in the 2013 report of the UN group of governmental experts on space Which recommended states work together on TCBMs and build norms of responsible behavior in space The 2013 UN group of governmental experts report on TCBMs was agreed by consensus And provides a framework for space safety security and sustainability That can be used immediately on a voluntary basis This framework was the basis for our support of the European Union's initiative to develop an international code of conduct For outer space activities, which to our disappointment faltered in new york in july 2015 We know the EU remains optimistic there is a future for this initiative and we remain ready to resume the conversation The UN's report on TCBMs and the EU's code of conduct are both practical ways forward because they focus on positive behaviors In contrast the treaty that china and russia propose would seek to regulate specific assets actual objects in space And here we think lies a minefield of definitional scope and verification issues To give a practical example Last month a british satellite successfully deployed a net in orbit to demonstrate how to capture space junk The prosaically named remove debris satellite Launched its own rapidly spinning cube sat Around 20 seconds later the removed debris satellite fired a six-pointed star-shaped net to recapture the cube stat Researchers hope the satellite will also test a harpoon designed to spear space junk While these experiments are clearly aimed at tackling the space debris problem What is to stop this kind of technology being deployed offensively against other space objects? We have to consider these military and strategic implications But what would we want? But would we want to limit technology that can help us clean up the space environment? This is potentially what the draft treaty would do Our view is that it is better to limit bad behavior in space A first step is to clarify how international law applies in space There is general agreement among states that international law including the provisions of the un charter Applies to the activities of states in outer space The applicability of international law is clearly set out in the outer space treaty and has been reiterated consistently in key un general assembly resolutions Declarations of states and core treaties relating to outer space There is a need for further work in this area to facilitate agreement among states on how International law applies to state conduct in outer space Which will in turn build transparency and confidence in in how states behave in outer space This could eventually culminate certainly in a new legal instrument But there is much important TCM work and norm building work to pave the way Australia is participating actively in a group of governmental experts on further practical measures for the prevention of an arms race in outer space And in fact my colleague Robert McKillan who represents Australia in that body is Placency is sitting in the audience The group has been mandated to consider and make recommendations on substantial elements of an international Legally binding instrument on the prevention of an arms race in outer space Including inter alia on the prevention of the placement of weapons in outer space Assuming that consensus can be reached and I think Rob is Is optimistic on that score the group will develop deliver its report to the secretary general next year Australia is committed to a rules-based global order which extends to space We want to work with allies and key partners to coordinate positions on challenges And initiatives to ensure the long term sustainability safety and security of the outer space domain We have enhanced our defense cooperation on space with Canada New Zealand the United Kingdom and the United States By establishing a partnership through the combined space operations initiative This grouping allows for more effective and coordinated use of military space capabilities And better cooperation on For instance identifying and understanding what objects are in space and protecting our access to vital military space systems We believe this cooperation will make a significant contribution towards a safer and more secure space environment As the number of states with an interest in space grows We need the right rules of the road as it were This is the best form of preventive state diplomacy This that's what we used to call it. We will continue our collaborative work Examining the existing legal framework for outer space and working out how it can best function for current and future needs So let me conclude by saying that bringing order to the final frontier is an important part of our work To help bring about the kind of peace we want prosperous open inclusive And in which all major powers make a contribution to solving global challenges Our space research and enterprise is a great statement to the international community that we are a creative sophisticated adventurous people And it's a great boon for our economic growth and the jobs that creates for Australians Australia is at the forefront in civil uses of space and a champion of sound and strong international relations that protect it Australia remains flexible and open-minded as we contemplate how best we can contribute to international efforts To ensure the long-term sustainability stability safety and security of outer space It's an important aspect of our overall efforts to strengthen and advance international rules and partnerships that underpin our prosperity and security So I encourage you all Particularly the students amongst you to develop and integrate your knowledge of the many ways space matters for Australia It's exciting complex and important and we need many good minds on the job. Thank you Well, thank you secretary. That was a fantastic presentation and I guess I could use this opportunity to say that Not only will part of your speech you'll see reflected in some of our papers coming out, but As we most people in this room know that there's been a real I think diplomatic deficit over the last 20 years in Australia so you can expect the UNAA to now start Really pushing for more to be going into diplomacy rather than less and Obviously with the new frontier the final frontier We can't do it with just the resources we've got now adequately. So we need more resources rather than less So what we'll now do is invite our two discussants to each speak for five minutes each and then we'll open it for q and a So I'm not sure who wants to go first. I think we should start with you, Anna So I had three things to to reflect on that the first was a an experience about a year ago where I was a member of a team who Were answering a call by rvc for the grand challenges called grand challenges and um This was in asteroid mining and So it was led by someone who an astronomer put man strong low and he asked if I would be Part of this team and I thought well, it's it's grand and it's it's a challenge And so I think I took those two boxes off And so yeah, let's go for it in Australia with mining and management of remote assets and so it was very exciting And what I went into it I I really thought this was a technical challenge. I mean, it's it's the technical side of it You know, how do you You know, how do you go about this? I mean, which asteroids do you go for? How do you get there? Do you bring things back? Do you do you mine there? Do you build there all these questions? I thought really was was was the difficult stuff And a few months later we our team the team got bigger and bigger and we added people from from necessity from So people from the school of law and from finance on the economic side And we realized that actually the technical side of it was not that it was easy But that wasn't really what frightened us at all. It was more the uh, well who owns this Can you just bring it back? And these in you know, it was a scientist To work out but of course it is it's really really difficult questions Require international discussion substantial international discussion And so that was the first time about a year ago. It really opened my my eyes to the importance of the legal side of What we do in space and our ambitions now and 50 years into the future and more And uh We heard a lot today about implicate important implications on the the security the defense side of things And you know, I I designed satellites and so I could I do it for astronomy in Earth-based applications, but that's easily turned around and I got a very good understanding of how easy that would be But for my experience on the erg It was um the space erg We heard so much about just on the commercial side the difficulty of startups just Really getting to grip with the regulation side of it So even the defense side the security side Put on one side if we're trying to really grow a space industry here in Australia This kind of thing is really important. It's really important because there are major barriers to anyone trying to do things in space Even simple stuff and so just getting on top of that getting really clear pathways for anyone To achieve what they want to achieve. It's really important if we want to take seriously growing growing the industry um And in space has changed. It's all about accessibility The accessibility today is just unbelievable. I have nine long free launches Through amu right now through contacts. No issue whatsoever It's that was you could never imagine that 10 years ago even 10 years ago So the accessibility the the therefore the commercialization potential of that is um Is so enticing. So it's really important. We we we get this right and very and uh, just finally at amu We have our strategy for what we're going to be doing in space I can't say much about it today because I will get told off from my vc I have to wait until we launch officially in three weeks But it's very much a um a multidisciplinary approach and and really, um Motivated from that experience with the ground challenge and seeing the importance of what we can do together combining Many different colleges many different areas to do things that any one Group by itself would find very difficult to do. That's what we want to do Thank you Thank you, professor more professor willer. So It's really interesting to see law being welcomed into an arena as offering Something that is not just The technical, you know, so now now science is is the technical law law is about Technique So I suppose I wanted to reflect on on the journey that that space has come from from from the sort of Treaties which are all couched In in very much in the language of sovereignty very much in the language of the nation state Uh, and yet as the secretary has said space is democratizing Um, you know technology is is both advancing and and it's disruptive Anna spoke about uh about there being very few, uh barriers to what she had done Um And I suppose I would want to posit the question as to whether barriers are unnecessarily a Uh, a good thing or a bad thing because I think what we're trying to capture in in terms of a rules Based order is some idea of the values and norms, you know We've got competing perspectives here between a sense of sort of nation state competitiveness And of wanting australian businesses to be to be at the forefront of what's going on But we also need some idea of what responsible innovation is And obviously there there's a there's a disadvantage here to being the the first mover But if we can't get to a position where all states embrace some idea of responsible innovation And what is acceptable for space exploration and and what isn't we're going to be in a very difficult position And if you look at unsatral their resources in terms of in terms of time in terms of expertise They're not going to be in a position to produce anything in in terms of a of a An order that regulates what private interests may or may not do in space anytime soon the the treatise Certainly what we refer to as the outer space treaty Is couched in in the language of this idea of the being a common benefit to to humanity That treaty doesn't have that many signatures And it doesn't really settle that what is for me the core question between national sovereignty and appropriation of of of resources So we already have at least two states both the u.s. And and the look and luxembourg That are the u.s. Has it Luxembourg is preparing it the u.e. United Arab Emirates u.a. Is talking about legislation which Essentially allows businesses incorporated in their jurisdictions to keep What they mine from space as it as it being theirs Now I spent my first holiday weekend in australia last weekend in eden And I visited the killer whale museum. There were five In that bay there were there were five companies private companies that all pursued what they called shore based whaling So I had visions of five boats hurtling out there And actually that turned out to be right because the person who claimed the whale was the person who forgot the first harpoon on now In the absence of of any clear regulatory structure That's going to be exactly what happens to asteroid mining and to water resources on the moon for example We will be in the position that the first person who gets there keeps it With private entities then Using a rich state based national based systems of tort and contract to work out what happens in the event of collisions And possibly resorting to international law Uh as maybe in a way of avoiding liability so for me National state security and exploitation of space is important But actually in many ways the real game is around capturing Private entities and pulling private entities Into a responsible innovation space so that exploration and exploitation Takes place in some sort of ordered form Thank you very much. Um, well, there's a lot of food for thought. I think with uh with those two presentations And what we'll now do is open it for q and a we've got one traveling microphone here. I think And so we might take say three questions at a time And uh, if we can get an initial person to volunteer there's one right there in in the moment In the middle and if you could um Just say who you are and who you represent and could I just say that um What fills me with great optimism is the fact that we've got three females here tonight That gives me some hope for the future Please Hi Duncan Blake is my name. Um a number of different hats. I'm a phd law student at the University of Adelaide Managing editor of the Woomera manual Um The but my question I've got a ton of questions. I have to sort of choose which one But my first relates to points that professor selly will have made and that is um The the success that the relative boom in the space industry now is being undeniably driven by commercial impetus and in fact Megan Clarke has said that over in bremen at the international astronautical congress Said that this australian space agency will be perhaps the most commercially focused Agency of any of any agency worldwide Is their attention with broader national goals about being a good global citizen and to use space responsibly? Okay, it's good. Just one question. Do you want me to answer that one? Just take it on. We'll take three questions You have to remind me what it is though Yeah, that's all right. You've you're talented You're a mother Who? Another question the back there Hi, yarn maybe from the parliamentary library law section. Um Districted to all to the Secretary and professor wheeler predominantly no offense professor, but to what extent do you think? If any emerging international norms for example in relation to deep sea mining the regulation of that outside coastal waters exclusive economic zones may shape The exploitation of resources in outer space Mm-hmm Vice chancellor I hope you have time to hear the answer This is a university So I guess one of the things I want us to contemplate is technology is running away from us very very quickly And this is one of probably for all three of you And so annam you may want to think about exactly what technology is going to bring In the next five to ten years Which I think will involve Large numbers of small almost uncontrolled satellites. There are going to be problems We may well start exploiting Asteroids and things very quickly before any rules-based order Is in place. How are we going to deal with the runaway of technology getting way out in front of the law? Because you guys are trying to get in front of it. You've already lost the race So how's that going to emerge? Okay, three great questions. First one on commercial versus Global I suppose interests the next one on impact of on deep sea mining and on resources than the last one on technological advances perhaps Outstripping the rules based international order to cope with it. So Okay, I'm going to do those in reverse order then. Okay. So the first one Law always plays catch up Once you're beyond very broad general principles, you're you're always going to play catch up If you look at the the global financial crisis a lot of that was around regulation playing catch up with the development of algorithms exists So so even regulating railways and canals in the 1850s law played catch up. That's that's always going to happen And what you need is the mechanism that enables you to catch up rather than the actual detailed law Around deep sea mining outside territorial waters, I'm not sure how useful that is as an analogy for space In the sense that space is on a scale that is So much bigger There's also the I suspect that the problem of debris and environmental damage is more difficult than deep sea mining and I'm just a little reluctant to analogize from What is a big but confined space to a space that is so much bigger if you forgive the pun on on space In relation to the first question Yes, there I think there is a huge tension there And I I think there is also a huge tension vis-a-vis the position of developed nations versus developing nations as well I think it's very very difficult and The sooner we have these conversations around what responsible innovation in this Area looks like the better. I mean there are lots of other areas where Responsibility is difficult. I mean gene therapy being being one Nanotechnology being being another it's not impossible to have these conversations But it is interesting that this conversation has taken so long to happen Oh I didn't really have much to add to that at all. I mean the On the technical side of it the answer is of course, it's accelerating. I mean I mean that You know, it's not Straightforward to I mean there isn't there is a Infrastructure there right now instead of rules to do without it are an export and it's you know controlled Technology you can't just You can't just you know put an infrared array or It was something as innocuous as that on a satellite and then be able to launch it I mean there is a pretty regulated system right now Um Which which is in existence, but if if there is a technology or something developed within it within a nation that they can do whatever they ever They want with it. It's quite true But um, but you're right. I mean I I you know because I am someone who builds instruments and I mean, I'm just really I'm so excited about the possibility. So so yes, you're absolutely right that the the ideas and the Um, the possibilities now given what they were in the past are absolutely huge and they are just really are accelerating And I don't know how the legal side of it actually catches up But that's but knowing it's there. I suppose as a good start Day, let's think of law just as as as a sister a system of rules Let's think of it very much more about values and principles. I mean the eu has lots of Uh ideas policies Regulations around the principle of responsible innovation that it uses In in relation to Science development generally so so it is possible to think around how how we might govern these things I'm very keen that we don't see law just as a sister a binary system of you can do this but not do that If I could just perhaps add And the beauty of the panel arrangement is going to be that we we can sort of complement each other and pick and choose And I'm conscious that the sum total of the expertise on this subject does not reside on this side of the table I know because I recognize some familiar faces in the audience that there's a lot of expertise on that side of the table So we might actually Commit with your involvement some some comments as well as questions because I am conscious of that expertise But the broader point I wanted to make what really was in relation to You know the rules-based order and and you you've got a publication here That i'm sure like you'll be wanting people to perhaps take copies of the on the way out The un and the rules-based international order now There's a big broader debate going on including in foreign policy about even the existence if you like of You know a let alone the rules-based order and one of the reasons we Put quite a bit of Owners on it in the foreign policy white paper and it's there in the 2016 defense white paper Is for because for a country like Australia the world's 14th largest economy We can't create order through power. We simply don't have it. We need to rely on rules But whether rules are norms or or sort of patterns of good behavior or whether it's responsible Innovation or whether it is in fact through binding treaties, of course, there are many Many possibilities along that spectrum We are facing a number of challenges if you like in relation to order and that is The post-second world war order and its its fitness for even the current challenges as well as you know emerging actors Perhaps feel they weren't at the table when the rules were written and have different views about about water Kind of water that might suit them, but there are also, you know, ungoverned spaces And the two examples that spring to mind most quickly are cyber and and space And there's been quite a bit of quite a lot of work done in the cyber area Actually more rapidly if you look at the progress that has been made And I was just struck, you know, looking back at this 1991 speech how, you know How many years have elapsed and how in some respects how little progress has been made on this But but there's nothing like a sense of urgency to galvanize the international community and as a Diplomat as a practitioner Brian, I wouldn't be quite as pessimistic as as you are Necessarily, but I do think that sense of urgency needs to be beyond Meeting and negotiating rooms in UN settings. It's obviously got to be part of a broader conversation Not just a national conversation, but a but a global conversation and to have a global conversation You need people to lead that conversation. You need people who can help Distill the arguments and explain them and create a sense that people have got a stake in the outcomes And yeah, that requires leadership, political leadership, leadership, you know leadership on on your part and and the part of many others So, you know the fact that we're even having this conversation this evening now It's not not necessarily a typical random group of Australians at all, of course But I mean each everyone here has probably got a role to play in that broader conversation And only then will we be able to galvanize it and I I suspect that the creation of our own space agency We did back in the late 1980s till the mid 90s have a space in Australian space office, of course I'm very conscious of that, but I think that will encourage debate at least in Australia And we've always had the capacity as part of our diplomacy to to be consensus formers We won't necessarily be the ones who make it happen, but we can certainly be part of a coalition to make it happen Excellent, excellent points all there. Just before we take any more questions Does anybody want to make comments a comment to picking up on the secretary's Point comments in a way. Okay. There's one just in the middle one there first I'd like to comment on Professor Wheeler's session that law always plays catch up And I think outer space is one area where law was ahead My first involvement in outer space law was leading an Australian delegation On direct broadcast satellites a subcommittee of the Outer Space Committee And this was back in 1969 and 1971 And in those days the concept of a satellite able to broadcast directly into a person's home Was seen as a very very long way ahead Yet the Outer Space Committee was looking at whether and to what extent that should be regulated And of course there were different views on Regulation of the media some states including Australia Regulate media the United States wanted free and open access But one of my impressions of those negotiations thinking back Was how professionally they were conducted even though it was in the Cold War area There was very little political racker much less so than in many other later International negotiations that I was involved in so I'd be interested to hear from Secretary Francis Adamson whether in current developments Political racker plays a major part In out space Law negotiations or to what extent they are conducted on a professional basis You happy to take that now? Well, actually what I want to do is call on my negotiator Kenan who is certainly up until now told me that they are being actually conducted in a reasonably positive spirit But robber you happy to just jump in there because I think it's it's even more useful for to hear from someone who's actually Representing us at that intergovernmental group of experts. Sure. Well, yes, so Robert Kenan is my name from the Department of Foreign Affairs I Think At the places where this this is happening indeed. I do think it is It's it's it's both professional without rancor and indeed it's one where The you know meaning of the you know, that's the potential antagonists are actually taking a really Open-minded approach to to what might be achieved partly. I think due to the fact that In some of these issues, you know, if we look at that the Russian-Chinese treaty It's been around for 10 years. So there's a lot of this This ground has been has been rolled over often in that in that time frame, but I do think there is You know a level of goodwill and I do think we have some good benchmarks to to to work off. I mean if you think about the Alice basetree itself You know Before the area you were talking about, you know, that was achieved during a very visceral part of the era in the Cold War And yet some remarkable arguments were made. We look at the the examples of the Of the the conventional law of the sea again, you know The English community was able to achieve some against some remarkable agreements on on a whole host of pretty important pretty pretty sensitive and and Important sovereign sovereign issues. Now, obviously those things are under under lots of pressure in lots of ways, but You know, they provide good examples to us of what can be achieved almost In spite of the prevailing Geostrategic circumstances, but you can't Ignore the fact that those those issues exist and that there are a lot of you know, very important interests at play particularly when you look at space issues, you clearly there's there's a lot of Areas that are going to be problematic because Countries won't want to have In particular limitations on their freedom of movement in particular areas of technology development, especially as it relates to military related technologies So, I think the The bottom line is Yes, there is There is still a clear figure We were then interested in trying to find ways through Some of these some of these challenges, but we can't ignore the you know, some of the fundamental realities that it's not You know, it's not going to be easy But it's it's certainly not out of the question that we can't make progress And I think there was another comment in the middle Justin, is it? Yeah, just here Thank you for that Thank you very much. I wanted to agree essentially with with Comments that secretary Adams and had made there is often a level of disdain and cynicism about international law and normative frameworks and sometimes it's The the effect of the law is Is both overstated and understated over overstated in the sense that people sometimes seem to think that law is heaven sent that occurs magically Not that it's the product of compromise between states in diplomatic negotiations But understated in the sense that and this is where often the disdain and cynicism comes in That it's a very little effect ultimately and states will do what they do But but the truth is it matters it matters for getting un security council resolutions It matters for coalitions. It matters for basing rights It matters for domestic support and it matters for a short access to space as well and Again agreeing with with the point that you made about Australia's position Not only do we not have the power to to Push for a rules-based global order in ways that other states might be able to but we also don't have yet the means to Put space infrastructure up there and have space infrastructure of our own Therefore we rely on space infrastructure of other countries and therefore we rely on them playing nicely A short access to space in a rules-based global order is is actually very important to us The the normative framework is also very important people again, maybe cynical and disdain a rules-based global order, but even if some players don't comply In a military context, for example, one of the big problems in space is about attribution Do we know whether something that has occurred in space was due to accidental reason space weather, for example, or Something hostile if most players comply with the rules-based global order passing space Getting to know what is Normal behavior and what is not normal behavior becomes easier. So again, the the rules-based global order is is pretty important to us And uh over here Just a couple of quick observations. Um, I'd uh as a as a ex-deaf at law the sea lawyer, I'd Respectfully suggest as a professor wheeler that there are some reasonably Interesting developments in the deep sea mining space around common heritage mankind and also developed and undeveloped countries engagement in those fields to draw on in the in the space of Space Um, I'd also like to say to professor anamore. Thank you very much for your facility Down to my current role as a as a eu delegation science advisor To say thank you for the role of the advanced instrumentation center In space environment testing of cube sacks, which took place in a eu funded qb50 project, which was referenced earlier And also there have been earlier comments about the eu Initiatives in international negotiations all that to say that I'd of course welcome in the area of science and technology A thematic focus of the government To engage with the number of eu initiatives. There are a number of opportunities coming up In the next few months that would highlight that But what we'd love is a little more coordinated cross-government approach Where we get the host agency for the space agency also supporting space more broadly at the policy level And I just leave it at that. Thanks very much We might now do I think he's take just one last a few questions or comments and then I'll come back to the panelists to wrap it up Thanks Joel. I am an IT consultant and I work for a company called ASG group My question is for Francis and it relates to education and capacity building in space law High-tech industries like the space industry come with increased regulatory complexity and therefore It's not enough just to invest and know the technology You must also have the capacity to understand and shape the regulatory agendas around these technologies And considering this point the UN has has outlined that space nations must educate and train professionals and governmental officials On the laws relative to outer space And so my question is how DFAT currently does this Or whether it plans to enroll its staff into capacity building programs in order to upskill staff So, uh, they are proficient in the laws relative to outer space when it comes to diplomatic negotiations or sitting around standard settings tables Well, that sounded like a most questions of self-interested in some way or another, but look, I mean the answer the broad answer is At a very general level is yes I mean, let me first of all say, I mean, this is classically an area where we've got to think deeply as a government About capacity building over the next pot when thinking about capacity building It's always good to think about it in a longer frame than you normally would and that's one of the things that David 30s independent review of the Australian public services is actually focusing on at the moment And we a group of The secretary's board had a good session with him and his colleagues in Sydney on Friday just to talk about exactly this sort of thing Not specifically that but but I think your question was covered by our broader interests in relation to DFAT specifically You probably know we've established and this was a One of many good ideas that my predecessor Peter Varghese Sort of said in training that was the creation of a diplomatic academy To train not just DFAT colleagues, but from across the service in terms of Aspects of our international engagement We have within that academy and law faculty as you probably know headed by the by currently by James Larson Who's head of the international law division in DFAT Or the legal division in DFAT I will need to check with him whether we're specifically focusing on this. You might want to give me your card Afterwards because you've obviously got some expertise in the area I would say the answer is yes We should be because of course You can't then get to the negotiation table unless you've got the technical knowledge To bring to bear and we don't necessarily always do that ourselves as you know often these Negotiating delegations have a wide range of experts Involved in them. So there are various ways of coming at it, but your essential point is a correct one In a couple of minutes. So we've got left. I think I might invite Sally and Anna and then the secretary for any final comments I'm you know in in some ways the idea of a sort of common heritage of Of mankind I find quite endearing. Um, but I just don't think that Commercial companies are that are going to be exploiting space on that level of investment Raising the level of capital that they need are going to find it quite so endearing. So I do think that And that that that's where I struggle to see the the analogy I think because as states In an era of austerity retreat from financing this sort of stuff themselves Then then that's what happens. The consequence is that commercial providers Commercial operators are there and the risks to capital for them are very very high and it's it's that that we need to deal with Oh Really just a real pleasure to be here talking Something about something much harder than what I usually talk about Like going out and grabbing asteroids So, um, no, it's a real pleasure to be here supporting Sally and uh in francis and what uh what we have to do on the The more uh regulatory side Francis and I think um hard is a very much a relative concept when it comes to this I don't know that I've ever been on a panel before with someone who builds satellites So it's a bit of pleasure to sit next to you and and also Uh, to hear what Sally's had to say as well too I mean, I think you know, it's a pretty challenging time. I'd have to say I mean, I I won't leave you this evening Feeling that we've got this remotely covered I will leave here this evening with You know an even greater sense of urgency about the the challenges that we're facing I think you know, brian made a very good point You know technology is running away with us. Sally makes a good point about the You know the commercial aspects of it, which is just so tempting and already being taken advantage of and of course It's not just space. It's it's Antarctica as well. It's it's it's you know Areas that we we previous generations and thought were probably going to be okay and now suddenly dramatically You know, they're not and I think that puts an onus on all sorts of things You know domestic regulation certainly but but the sort of work that rob and others are doing and of course although we We do point bravely to examples where the international community have come together and and done some very good things in terms of of The commission on the law of the sea on class and you know other examples as well I mean in our business that is getting harder. There is no doubt about that There are more countries around the table more interested to be taken into account More at stake in a whole range of ways. So it puts a really big premium Not just on diplomacy but on I suppose you know The international community stopping and pausing and thinking before before it acts, but One can't be A hugely hugely optimistic about all of that. I am an optimist by by nature But I think We've got a double down actually on some of these things because That the the pace of them is is quite dramatic just a final word on attribution the question of attribution was raised It's interesting again to refer to cyber There's been a much greater willingness on the on the part of a number of countries. Australia included to Attribute malicious cyber activity in fact prime minister and the foreign minister issued another media release on that earlier today It may be further off in space But I think we're edging closer and that will need to become Part of the rules and norms and the way we try to achieve responsible Whether it's innovation or engagement with space And before I hand over to Jeremy, I'll just quickly say to me Yes, by nature. I'm an optimist, but I'm not all that optimistic at the moment Not only about space but more generally about the rules based international order and I see The alternative to a rules based international order as being the worst possible option for Australia's future. So we must Do more it doesn't mean the rules based order stays the same. It of course always continues But in that where I think we have a deficit at the moment Is and this will be interesting to see what comes out of defat soft power review But I since leaving the military I've spent most of my life in civil society organizations and I am always and constantly mesmerized by The deep passion understanding and knowledge that exists in that And so I really think we need to use Our civil society organizations and our commercial enterprises Far more than we have as a nation done in the past. We do it to some extent And we do it better than some nations, but we don't go near enough as some other countries do because By building civil society linkages Right around the globe. We can really have a very positive influence in my view and D that's not resource to do that at the moment And just two quick reminders United Nations day is the 24th of october not far away and there will be events all around the country and I think a really important date to remember is the 10th of december, which will be the 70th anniversary of the universal declaration of human rights Even probably more important this year given what's happening in the world and our Standing on the human rights council So with that said Jeremy Thank you, Mike So for those who don't know me i'm Jeremy Farrell and I wear a number of hats which bring together the organizations that Have made this event possible So I am an associate dean for research at the anew college of law where professor Wheeler is my boss I am also a member of the center for international and public law And my bosses are just over here Professor James Jelios and a social professor Sarah Heathgat. So it's terrific to have you here In the audience. I'm also a member of the act division of the united nations association of australia So i'm wearing that hat here and representing the President brian gleason who as mike mentioned has been in png And finally i'm also the academic convener or the convener of the academic network for the UN association of australia as well So it's a real pleasure to see these two organize Well these multiple entities come together to make this event possible And it's my privilege to give a vote of thanks to everyone who's been involved in making this event possible So I might start by thanking all of the people behind the scenes the communications and marketing team Or teams I should say both at the UN association of australia In of course the anew college of law and more broadly the strategic communications team at anew I'm Grateful to all of the participants I did want to sort of say two themes for me stuck out from the secretary's Speech And I interpreted So references to preventive diplomacy the recalling the house in days of preventive diplomacy in the early 1990s So I interpreted the secretary's comments to be something of a plea to us all to become You might want to call it preventive space diplomats Or perhaps Transparency and confidence building Diplomats in terms of space. So I think this event is obviously it's not the end It's the beginning of a really interesting period of reflecting on these very important issues that have been raised Both through the secretary's terrific lecture and also through the The contributions the the profound contributions that Discussions have made and also very much the participation from you in the audience as well So I'd like to thank you all And before I close I'd like to present The secretary with a small Token of our appreciation for your terrific distinguished lecture It's a bottle of wine that's been produced by an ANU College of Law alumnus