 International hybrid team and we'll tell you more about that happening in and with Ukrainians and others here on transitional justice, which is a function of project expedite justice, which is headquartered in Kona Hawaii but operates around the world and various continents. And one of its people is with us today. And she is in Cyprus, Greece. Cyprus is not in Greece, but it's near Greece, right? Cyprus, yeah. Okay. Okay. And she is Elisa Galoshapova. I think I got that right mostly. And she is a member of Project Expedite Justice and she is going to talk to us about hybrid teams. But first, Elisa, you know, what have you studied, what qualified you to get into Project Expedite Justice? How did that happen? What is your strong suit that makes you a worthy candidate? Well, I have quite wide experience in project coordination and managing projects in different types for the business and also the social civil society projects and I've been working as an executive director for the nonprofit for six years in Ukraine. So I'm quite familiar with the field. Not even one time about any type of legal projects. So, yeah, and I studied international relations. How did you settle on Cyprus? Why Cyprus? What is happening in Cyprus that we should know about? Well, I would start that I'm relocated here and I'm studying here 15 years ago and I have friends in some friendly environments here. So it was just it was a decision to relocate because of war happening in Ukraine because I'm broke here and I have a key. So we had to move since the war started. And yeah, it was just we were invited by our friends to come and so we relocated. But what is what is very difficult here is that it's also occupied territory. Now, the part of Cyprus is occupied and they've been through this many years ago that that kids are still living in Cyprus. They are not kids anymore. But they do remember this horrible, horrible, directs, yes, and occupation. And though the things are a bit slow down and, you know, but it's it's it's triggering them. Ukrainian situation is triggering them a lot. Well, let's let's talk about telling you before there's a very interesting documentary movie essentially about two sisters who left Syria and got across the Greek sea into Lesbos and then ultimately into Germany. They were qualified swimmers and one of them got into the Olympics and Rio. So this is the story of these two women. And what it teaches us is about the journey, if you will, from the Middle East. And for that matter, I suppose it'd be similar from Ukraine to find a place in Europe. Europeans, some of those countries, some of those people have very kind hearts, and they will help others not so much. And I wonder, you know, what the experience is like for you to be away from your home and to be in another place in Europe and to be subject to another culture where not everybody may like to have you there. And I wonder what your experience is with other Ukrainians who have made the same trip. I'm sure you know a lot of them. And are they going to go back? How committed are they to going back? And if they find a decent life in places west of Ukraine, will they ultimately prefer to stay there? Yeah, thank you. Well, so many things. But we definitely want to come back. We are dreaming to go back. And mostly, I don't know, the people I met, they are just waiting for kids or for some future reasons, they are staying with me. But we are just counting the days, you know. Of course, there won't be a part of those who left that will not go back, or will not go back as soon as possible. But I believe eventually they will go back. We are very grateful for the support from Europe, from all the countries that are hosting our people, that are helping. Yeah, mostly it's mothers and kids. Yeah, and I think it's been nine months, it's been changing the situation. First, you run and you think that you have to stay and help. You have to be able to help your people, to support the army, to volunteer, to do whatever you can on the ground. Because they need, we need, everyone needs, you know, everyone's support. And that's how, that's actually how Ukrainians united before this time. But then you also realize that you have to protect your people. And you have to, for the sake of, for the sake of future, let's say, for your family, you have to go. And then it's very, it was a key moment for me when I started to cooperate with projects with the justice, you know, to feel that, feel that accomplishment, that might be happening, that might be done. And you start to feel that here is my part. And that's what I can do in my country. That's where I will contribute, right? And this is, this is what makes it successful when we are talking about. So tell me about the teams, you know, the hybrid teams. I find it interesting because it's, it's something relatively new. It reflects a certain organizational mission of some kind. And I remember hearing more than once that the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian society is good at organization. It's good at organizing itself. They put a bunch of, you know, Ukrainian soldiers together, and they will figure out how to get organized. You're part of that. What is the hybrid team organized to do? What is it like? Describe it to us. I think the key point of the project was to unite the whole type of people. And first of all, to unite Ukrainian lawyers and international lawyers. And it's really a talented team that unites, you know, the expertise, education, and the years and years of experience in different international legal spheres like investigation, and just lawyers and prosecutors. So those different types of experience and culture backgrounds bring this hybrid view on things and on the project and how it will contribute. But also having Ukrainians among that team, it's very important because it's all about understanding of the background, right? And it's about making partnerships on the ground. And we have people from Ukraine, me and my colleagues, that they have a great network on the ground. And they are also experts in what they're doing and they're trusting. So it makes this process of building up the relationship with local organizations more smooth. And this is very important because Ukrainians, you know, they will not believe you just like that straight away. Like, even if you come with the open mind and heart, so they will still have a little patience, you know, because, yeah, because we have different situations and different experiences, especially with international organizations and even in this work. Can we talk about trust for a minute? You know, so you want to talk to somebody, you want to, you know, get some data, some information from somebody, you want to build a case, whatnot. But you have this barrier where they may not trust you. But you're Ukrainian and the people who are going to talk to them are Ukrainian and understand presumably, but somewhere along the line that trust has been undermined. What undermined it? What do people in Ukraine worry about in terms of trusting the investigator? Well, we have to start here from the point that, you know, I think the trust to the even more color sororities, like release, it started slightly to change since the Revolution of Independence. Yeah, so it's the reforming this sorority when they brought this really nice Kinyang cop strength. Yeah, so we felt like, you know, no, this situation is going to change and slightly really changed. But even though the last pools, they show that people are not addressing their, you know, they do not report the crimes, even more crimes to the police. First of all, because this is something that happened to us, right? And we don't know that those who are committed to crimes, they will have a accountability. There is no strong belief that their accountability will be there for those crimes. Was that a legitimate belief? Yeah, no. What I mean is that they suspect that this may all be for nothing, that at the end of the day, there will not be accountability. You know, I'm remembering Holodomor. Do you remember that term, Holodomor? Back in 1933, courtesy Mr. Stalin, how he wrecked Ukraine by starving people and then replacing his acolytes of Russian settlers and attempting to turn the whole country into another Russia. A lot of people died, at least five million people died in that time. And I wonder if the, you know, that historical experience has some connection with what you were talking about. That is, be careful about trusting people. Well, the whole, I think the whole USSR experience is that example. And also, I believe that historically you had more examples of international relations that are, you know, that where we were as a country we were betrayed, where we were played by others. You know, this brings all distrust in a way, if I may say. So, yeah, probably. But the important thing is that you still have to try. You still have to try to explain. And you have to be there, even though if today they are not sharing with you, you have to show your presence. You have to prove somehow that these are the steps we have taken. And this is what we are doing. And we still will be doing that. And when you feel like you will want to share. Yeah, I think that's very important and profound. So, you know, I was telling you there were two stories that I noticed in the New York Times today. One of them dealt with the efforts of the Ukraine army have expanded beyond the border beyond the Russian border. And they are sending drones into Russia in long distances into Russia and destroying targets inside of Russia, apparently on a regular basis, starting just a few days ago. And that that would enhance morale. If I was Ukrainian and PS my family is Ukrainian. If I was Ukrainian. I would be happy to see them do that. On the other hand, there's another story in about Kyrgyzstan. Kyrgyzstan is a kind of wrecked city. And there's nothing much left, but there are some Ukrainians who did stay or go back and they are there and they are worried about everything about the Russians coming back mostly. And about not, you know, getting enough, what do you want to call it, help or money or infrastructure to rebuild the city. Either way, I also saw an article about how Israel is finally helping that Israel engineers are working on what you need to do to rebuild, which is a very important issue. But what I'm getting at, Elisa is that morale has to be a big part of this formula that you're talking about morale has to go with trust. You want people to feel like ultimately there's a reason for all of this and that they can rebuild their country. So when they see the army firing drones into Russia, that's good. When they see people worried in Kyrgyzstan, that's not so good. When they see the Israeli engineers looking around and trying to figure out how to rebuild the country, that's great. The question is, it's dynamic, it changes. And so as the morale of people in the Ukraine changes because of these various events couldn't bad. So must their willingness to work with you, right, if they're optimistic, if they want to see justice done, they will work with you. If they're pessimistic, maybe not. Can you serve that? Do you know about that? Can you talk about that? Yeah, I can. And I will can say that the trend is positive, right? So when, as we started to talk about international justice, as we started about treatment help, as more and more news coming, that's the European partners as well. They're going to support those to be taken into accountability, yeah. So people started to believe and we are optimistic, yeah, nation. And that's what gives us a hope, that what gives us the power to resist and to balance ourselves. Because you have to be at this point where you still have to let yourself to suffer a bit, to have the emotions. And you don't have to focus on that because it leads you nowhere. You have to focus on the positive thing. So the small victories and bigger victories and eventually one big victory will be there. It gives the hope and gives power and it gives us that energy to work, to continue to support people, to continue to work for making change. And you know yesterday was actually today for you and yesterday for Ukraine, it was an international volunteer day. And I know that since their, since their soul was deliberated, so it's a lot of, when they let them go, a lot of volunteers, a lot of people to help. They went there to support their people bringing food and water and clothes and all the humanitarian aid products and supporting them as well. And bringing medicine, like everything to you to support and we go and our people and my friends, they go and do it to be different parts of Ukraine and Kharkiv and so on. And before Kyiv region as well. So I think this time, this time we are united and this small victories, they brings more hope. Okay, well let's talk about the hybrid, you know, early on back in, say March, we were introduced to the term hybrid war. Hybrid war is where you have multiple resources being applied in multiple ways. And it was Putin's, it was a Putin's trick. You know, he would, he would attack this and then attack that and then use hacking, you know, and he would use the press, he would lie. These hybrid things, lots and lots of different things. And it was a hybrid war, they called it. So we say it's a hybrid team. What do you mean by that what's hybrid about the team. I imagine you perform a number of different functions, a number of different specialties in a number of different places using a number of different strategies. But can you introduce us to what the hybrid part of that is. Yeah, so definitely it unites the number of countries, yeah, a number of cultural backgrounds. So from the perspective of design thinking, it brings you a new, a new strategy. And of course, different types of experience because in this project, for example, me, I didn't deal with the legal project before. So we have people who are bringing different perspective on the, on its activities. Yeah, as well as solutions. Right, but, and also the, the idea that we have Ukrainians and international experts. It takes a lot of years of experience. Yeah, you mentioned the staying, staying positive staying focused. But it seems to me that the focus you're talking about is investigating and prosecuting war crimes. That's the focus. That's the ultimate goal of the team. But of course there are, you know, there are issues about that. For example, my understanding is the criminal court in the Hague, the International Criminal Court has not issued any indictments yet. And it's been 1011 months now it'll be a year pretty soon. And it hasn't done that. And so you wonder about the United Nations and the International Court of Criminal Justice, what what's holding them up. In the same time there have been, there have been, you know, war crimes trials in Ukraine by the Ukraine government when the Ukraine government can catch a war criminal. They have on occasion tried that person and, and, you know, you know, found punishment for that person. There's also a concept in Western Europe called universal jurisdiction. Germany has done that with Syrian war criminals within their jurisdiction. You have to be within the jurisdiction. So for example, if I'm a Russian general and I'm, I somehow wind up in Germany. There's no question that if Germany knows Germany will arrest me, Germany will try me. Germany will bring me to justice. So in a number of Western European countries that universal jurisdiction exists. I don't know if there have been trials of war criminals in the Ukraine invasion, however, in those Western European countries. The only ones I know about, heard about, read about are the ones in Ukraine itself. And so tell me about your, your goals, your mission in terms of bringing these people to justice, because we all know around the world we know. Everyone in the world knows that the Russians are guilty of war crimes, atrocities, violations of human rights, and genocide. We all know that. So what's holding it up? And what can you do about it? Yeah, well, we are what we are doing is we are assisting victims of war crimes, crimes against humanity inside and to seek the justice. And now we are, we are blindly on different, all the, all the legal available mechanisms supported. So as you mentioned, universal jurisdiction. Yes. And the courts, yes, I believe they will be. And we know from our partners that some teams and some personalities, they work on that. So they went to, to the European courts, they submit their, their applications also, European right. I believe the, the, the most important thing it will be the tribunal, which I know that if you're bringing organization, like a working group is working really hard at the moment meeting all around the block. And meeting different countries are preparing the background for the treatment, preparing that little, you know, mechanism to, to, to bring the remedies for the victims. So, and I believe I'm from the signals we are getting from European Union and United States. I believe I truly believe that it will be done. Hopefully very soon. Yes, we also working as an, you know, as investigators. So we try to submit legal briefs, like section briefs. And to make perpetrators and, you know, or other who guilty, you know, particularly of wandering. Rain. Village of Ukrainian cultural products. To feel less comfortable. So, where do you find the best possibility. For these war crime trials. Are they going to be most effective, you know, what I'm saying is that if you found some senior Russian general, for example, and you tried him or Germany tried him on the universal jurisdiction, or the International Court of Criminal Justice decided to do something and died him. You know, it would be international front page. And everybody in the world would know there is accountability. And on the one side, Ukrainian people could take confidence in that. They can say yes, you can, you can do that you can do it. The other side is that everyone would see the judicial result of that case. And, and say, huh, you know, it's not just a rumor. It's true. They do do war crimes. And we have to stop them and it would, it would help, you know, consolidate the coalition. It would help get you aid. And it would help get you weapons and so forth to combat what is proven in court as war crimes. So to me that would be an important goal. Okay, of anyone working on this matter, whether they are Ukrainian or whether they are coming into Ukraine to help I'm sure there's a lot of people who do that. You know, outside Ukraine or you I mean you you could be in Cyprus you could be in Paris, you could be in Berlin, any number of places and do the same thing you do now right. Yeah. So do you agree with me would have a big effect on the world. If we could put a headline up there to say that some, you know, big name Russian general was found guilty of war crimes. It's not, it's not so easy to get them though. I think we will have those generals, you know, when we will be in battle. Because they are not going after they're not going from there. And I think there is a still or maybe they negotiate their future at the moment. We don't know. Which is assumed. They might negotiate their future at the moment some of them. Who's doing the negotiation the general is doing the general. I think that some people, you know, close to the Russian government. Yeah, they understand now that there is no way they're going to make this work. And they're going to be in trouble. So, I believe that some some people are leaving. Yeah, some people are from the close circles there leaving Russia they changed the citizenship. And yeah, I know that we have a lot of consultations like we hear, we hear from different sources that they have a lot of consultations with advisors abroad. And yeah, and some of them are moving. The most, those who are, you know, connected with the workers, they still there. And I think they understand that it's not, it's not so easy for them just to go and go anywhere, because they have to think what's going to happen next to them. And now, obviously, they can be rich study by the police of the country is very difficult. So when they tried to negotiate their way out of accountability. I'm just saying, look, you know, I, I, I feel bad. And I admit I was doing wrong and is there a deal we can make so that you don't prosecute me. And give me a safe passage to Western European country, for example, and I'll help you to the extent that I will I will give you information. And I will tell you who else was involved, you know, sort of like, you know, I'm making a guilty plea but an agreement for a very low sentence, that sort of thing. Is that is that what happens with these guys because that's good. If you can, if you can do that if you can get them to do that. I know exactly because I'm not so I don't have the power to, to state that this is what happened. But it's just an assumption. And that's an assumption, but we can hear it from many sources that those people are now trying to find the ways. Yeah, I wouldn't. I think it's good. I don't have any information either but we put it this way. I have less information than you would. That's amazing. So, the other thing is this, you know, so we know what crimes have been committed and we know about Bukka, you know, we, we, we all heard about Bukka and we've seen, you know, photographs that are undeniable, although Mr. Putin has, and some of his generals have denied what is obvious in the photograph, you know. But, but the word gets out. The word gets out to those young troops that have been maybe not well educated and pulled in from rural areas in Russia, and put on the front lines without equipment or even food. And certainly they aren't getting paid. Russia can't afford to pay them. The army, you know, gets weaker. But my question to you is, a few months ago, it was clear that Putin's army, including the Chechnyans, you know, the Wagner group, you remember about the Wagner group. We're doing war crimes left and right and center all over the place. They were liberated to do war crimes. That's the way that the Russian army worked. But now, I expect that a lot of those same people from, you know, the privates onto the generals, they know about this risk. They know that if they do war crimes, they may well be accountability, and that people are investigating them, and they may be at the wrong end of a trial someday soon, one way or the other. And my question to you, Elisa, does this mean that there are fewer war crimes going on now? Is it decreasing? Is it increasing? Is it staying the same? What's the dynamic on, you know, on the number of war crimes, the atrocity of the war crimes that you hear about now? Well, I don't think that it's any less than previously, because what you are saying that they are younger guys, and they brought them, they mobilized them, but we also have those Wagner groups and those like pure criminals. So what did you expect from those people? I don't expect much, just to commit the same criminal actions towards them. I don't think that the only occupied territory is especially because they were coming like her son. They were torturing the people, they were trying to get information, they were trying to make them talk, make them do many things. And in general sense, I don't think that there are less crimes happening. Maybe we just don't know about all of them. Yeah, it's not the main focus now, yeah. But still, it was from the first days of war, because I have friends serving, and I have also my friends volunteering a lot. So I heard about the crimes from the first days, even though it was not on use. So the first terrible pictures like the situation has started to get very early, like straight away. And as soon as they entered the region. So yeah, I don't think that things have changed. I'm profoundly sorry to hear you say that. But let me ask, you know, was this going on for 10, 11 months now? And, you know, Ukraine has taken some terrible blows. I mean, a lot of people have been killed. A lot of people are being killed either by the weapons of the war, but also by the cold and the lack of medical facilities. You know, life has been interrupted, and seniors die without the kind of life support that seniors need to have to stay alive, especially in the winter. And then you talk to somebody like you, Lisa, you talk to a Ukrainian soldier, you talk to an Ukrainian, Ukrainian public official or diplomat. And what you get is we are strong, glory to Ukraine. We are not weakening in any way. We have resolved. We are unified in our desire to get them out of our country. And yet, you don't see anger. I don't see anger in you. I don't see anger in the people from Ukraine who speak about this. I'll tell you now, if it was me, I would be furious. I would be so angry I could hardly control myself. Why don't you demonstrate anger? Are you not angry? Well, I think that there was one of the stages some time ago. But I think I prefer the constructive anger, you know, when you are trying to not be angry, just, you know, to be furious, just to be negative. It's when you're trying to convert it into action. And that brings me more hopeful and confidence and satisfaction. Because when you're more effective, and you know that you're doing the right thing, and this is your place, you know, to feel that this is the place you're making change. And yeah, it works better. And you remember already mentioned, we have to focus. We have to balance. We have to balance the anger and pain and all this terrible experience we are getting every day. Every time we look at the news or, you know, receiving a call from home. So we have to balance that with the hope and optimism and focus on the positive. And, yeah. And I'm small because of these things as well. Yeah. Well, thank you, Elisa. Elisa, go to, go to Shepova. Sure, I got that right. Thank you for joining us today and answering my questions and telling us how your work is and how project expedite justice serves, serves this mission and how things are going at a very fundamental level with you and others in Ukraine. Thank you so much. Glory to Ukraine. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.