 Welcome to the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Bernstein. Today we're going to go back and talk about one of those tried and true subjects of the American mafia and true crime in general, and something that I've made myself an expert on and I'm very honored and excited to bring on the expert on the subject matter. We're going to be talking Jimmy Hoffa. The state of the case were a week or two removed from the most recent machination in the investigation regarding a theory that his body was moved to Milwaukee. Dan and I will address it briefly. Dan Moldea, I call him the godfather of Hoffa research. He was here from day one at ground zero. I pay a debt to him because I wouldn't be able to do my reporting in research if it wasn't for his 35 plus years before I came on board. Thank you Dan for coming and joining us. Thank you Scott and you're fabulous. Let me tell you, you are the minutia expert on this case right now. I bow to you. Well, you know, I think Dan and I compliment each other. You know, Dan has this story, you know, I think he said it before. I'm going to throw it back to you Dan. But Dan, I love how you've analogized it to like a Shakespearean play with different acts because that's what it is. I sort of viewed as Ahab and his white whale. That's the kind of way. Well, Dan is Captain Ahab going after his white whale, but just in terms of the the narrative here, I think the story comes in different acts. And Dan is again, I'm not trying to belabor this, but Dan is when you're going to the you're going to the source. This is the source. This is the Dan was literally here from day one and wrote the first major book, The Hoffa Wars, and has had a acclaimed career since then, numerous New York Times bestsellers, big, big time book projects. But but Jimmy Hoffa is his baby. And I'd like to think that it's I've taken a little slice of the baby myself as something that I take a lot of personal pride. Right now your viewers are listening to the two top experts on the Jimmy Hoffa murder case right now. And I'm glad we're doing this. I'm glad we're sort of giving an update as to what's going on. So we're just going to touch on this right off the bat. I don't want to spend too much time on it. But because honestly, I don't give it a ton of credibility, if any. So the Milwaukee theory emerged this fall comes from a nonprofit independent cold case investigative unit called the case breakers. They've been on this for a couple they've been on this for a few years. Yeah, and Dan, I talked about this, you know, personally, off air, you know, over the years, we knew that there was something that was percolating with this group. Tom, I think it's we call him Tom Colbert. It could be Tom Colbert. Tom Colbert, he's he's again, you know, he I might not agree with this particular theory, but he is somebody that has a resume, has a career in investigative journalism that to some acclaim he had a series on the history channel. So what was he talking about? Was it about D.B. Cooper? The high was it salt? The New York Times say salt, D.B. Cooper salt? I don't think they ever did. Okay, well, okay, so it's still out there. Okay, right. So his theory, I'm just going to put it into a nutshell. And then I'm going to throw it to Dan to get his comments on it. Um, his theory is that a former Chicago corrupt police officer by the name of Harold Walters, who was had some form of relationship with Joey Ayupa, who was the Chicago mob Don of the 70s and 80s. Walters got kicked off the Chicago police force and then they got kicked off the Oak Brook police force ends up moving to Wisconsin at some point in the 70s. He claims that he was involved in the kidnapping. And then at some point 20 years later, in September of 1995, he helped move Hoffa's body from an undisclosed location to the former site of Milwaukee County Stadium where the Milwaukee Brewers played from the fifties, I think it about 2001, when that stadium was torn down, they now play it. I think it's called American Family Field, formerly Miller Park, which is in the same, you see the right next door right across the street. And while, when Walters died in the spring of 97, he wrote on a ace of spades playing card. I don't know if you call it a map, but trying to send people to underneath the third baseline at County Stadium, he names Hoffa, he names Joey Ayupa, he gives it to his niece who I guess was a member of law enforcement in Wisconsin. She sits on it for 20 plus years. When she retires, she hands it over to the case breakers. According to the case breakers, they've had three independent sources that confirm this and they did some type of GPR technology that signifies that there was some disturbance. And then there's some sort of a dog involved in this too, right? Yeah, a cadaver dog sniffs a body or what they think could be a body underneath. You know, the one thing that we've done and we've adhered to is that there is a certain timeline and there is a certain cast of characters who's involved in the Hoffa case. And that's tried and true through the whole system, whether it's FBI wiretaps or whether it's the Hoffa report or whether it's intelligence from the various law enforcement. This is completely offbeat. This is so far out in left field where the cast of characters doesn't even resemble what we have been dealing with over the past 48 years. And so what we have to do is we have to evaluate this on it. I mean, my position is at Colbert and his group have said, here is a spot. He's right here. The third baseline of this field in Milwaukee, this baseball field in Milwaukee. My position is, hey, let the pros come in and do a GPR there and if there's something there, dig it up. And even if the dog has detected a dead body there, well, we may be able to solve another crime, but it's not going to be Jimmy Hoffa. We know that. It's not going to be Jimmy Hoffa. I would like a little bit, if I had my perfect scenario here and I wanted to give this theory credibility, I would like to see, A, I would like to hear where they took the body from. I mean, so you have 20 years of an unaccounted body in this theory. Two, I'd like to know, tell us why they needed to move the body. Three, I would like to know how, just saying that Harold Walters says that he was involved in the kidnapping, there's got to be more meat on that bone. Well, as I recall, I've seen some of the documents that they've had. And as I recall, they were essentially claiming that the body was originally up in the Lake Huron region, in the upper peninsula or something like that. And I remember that, like about five or six days after Hoffa disappeared, I was with NBC News at the time. I had been working on Hoffa in the teens. It was about eight months before Hoffa disappeared. And then I had helped John Quittney with a series that he had done with the Wall Street Journal that came out July 22nd, 23rd, and 24th, 75. And then the following week, Hoffa disappears after John's three-part series on a teacher's pension phone comes out. And then John called me and he and I went searching for Hoffa, failing to do so. He went back with his tail between his legs to New York. I came to Detroit and hitchhiked up to the Red Fox and was hired and met Irving Arlabina, who was hired by NBC News. So I had a source on day one who told me that there was a guy named Roland McMaster, who had a goon squad. And they were running around shaking down trucking companies and that they were behind the local 299 violence off his local before he disappeared. And that these acts of violence, which preceded his disappearance right up until July 10th, 75 when Dick Fitzsimmons car was bombed outside of, what's the name of that bar? Nemo's. Nemo's, Nemo's, right by Tiger Stadium. And so they, and he also told me that McMaster was with some of his goons on Manitoulin Island up by Lake Huron. And so I said to my group, I told my bosses at NBC, I said, you know, I'm 25 years old at the time. And, and I'm saying, you know, send me up there, I would like to do this. And they said, no, no, we're going to, and then they sent up another reporter, a reporter with what with a wife and children. And he went up and just as my source told me, you know, there were people populating this particular area. And so, and he made a decision not to go into the area. So he never found what was in there. And he came back. But there's a bit, a lot of theories that something was going on up in the upper peninsula or Lake Huron, and that the body was moved from there to this location. And I thought originally it was in Indiana. And now it's Milwaukee. Again, I'll let these people explain this for themselves. But I think he had the guts to say, here is a specific spot. And I think out of respect for that, that that spot should be examined. I mean, it's like, it's not like Colbert is somebody who's claiming, you know, that, you know, that the body was built, was buried in a, in a, in a wall or something like that, you know, if there's enough evidence being very specific about it. And I said, out of respect for that, and out of respect for his credentials, it should be examined. I agree with you 100%. I guess there's two things here. First, a lot of things here, two things that are coming to my mind right now. First, I'd like to say that I'd like to tell the viewers and the audience just a little bit of history in case they've forgotten. Roll McMaster is a major character in the story of Jimmy Hoffa's rise and fall. And in the year as Dan, I just want to color up some of what Dan said. In the year leading up to Hoffa's disappearance, there was a kind of mini war within the Teamsters Union and within the mob going on between pro-Hoffa loyalists and anti-Hoffa goons. And, and Roll McMaster, who had once been Hoffa's number one muscle, his, the top Mr. Goon there ever was, had abandoned Jimmy Hoffa and had, and had become adversary with him, had aligned with the mafia who didn't want Hoffa back in the Union. And that was after, that was after Hoffa went to jail. Wait, after Hoffa went to jail. And what I'm saying is the year leading up to Hoffa's disappearance in July of 75, starting in 1974, there were, there was a series, a continuing series of intimidation attacks or intimidation tactics, attacks, physical attacks, car bombings, boat bombings. I guess local 299 officials like Otto Wendell, George Roxboro, Ralph Proctor, guys that were backing Hoffa started to be forcefully and began to get muscled and, and being told, if you stand with this guy, you, you can get hurt too. And, and there were, Roll McMaster was known to have created or had gotten the okay to create a Goon Squad that's in tire purpose on a daily, on a daily basis. At the 1971 teachers convention, there was, there was this innocuous member resolution that was passed by the General Assembly of the Union and creating this special commodities, steel hauling type outfit that was going to organize the unorganized and Roland McMaster was put in charge of it. And it was, it was a shakedown off. I did a story for the Detroit Free Press with Joe Thomas and Ralph Orr in, in June 1976 about this. And what I thought was after I left NBC, NBC offered me a job. When I was sent to New York and I said, you know, I think I'm on this Hoffa case and I'm gonna, I think that consultant was, this is in 19, this is in, like August 1975. And I said, and I spent, I focused on, and so I went back home, left NBC, went back home and I, I didn't have a source in the FBI. I had other sources, but not in the FBI. And so I wrote up a 15 page memo saying this is what I think happened to Jimmy Hoffa. And it was completely about Roland McMaster and his Goon Squad. I thought that they were the center of the universe at that point because I believe that whoever was behind the local 2.99 violence was going to be behind the murder as well. So there was 20 days after Jimmy's car was bought. Just so people understand, there was a day to day campaign of violence being launched by McMasters and his people. To try to dissuade Hoffa from running in the 76 election and from his loyalists to trying to get him, trying to get the loyalists to abandon Hoffa and in an isolated. McMaster was never, never targeted or he was never publicly accused of being behind the local 2.99 violence. I had, the FBI did three, when I sent my 15 page theory to the FBI, they came and visited me. They did three or four 302s on me. And they had suspected that two guys who worked for McMaster and Larry McHenry and Jim Shaw were behind the bombing at Dick Fitzsimmons car on July 10th, 1975, 20 days before Hoffa disappeared. And I was told that a guy named Jim Robinson was responsible, who was another McMaster goon was responsible for the bombing of Dick Fitzsimmons, excuse me, Dave Johnson's cabin cruiser. In Groseal. Excuse me. It was in Groseal. That's where he was bombed. Exactly, right. And that I was also interested in obviously the shooting of George Roxbury. I spent some time with George and talked to him and knocked his eye out. And he was lucky. He was still alive out of window. You know, the things that happened to him. I think his barn was burned down or something like that. There were, as you say, it was almost a daily grind of things that were going on. And people were blaming this individual who was a sort of a freelance Hoffa hater named Coulter. And that was a person they were blamed. They were not fingering McMaster until I made a big deal about it with my theory. And then they came and visited me and I really and I gave them the information about the goon squad. And I thought right up until December of 1975, that this whole thing was a McMaster operation. And I was at the free press at the time, doing a one project, the whole project on Hoffa and his excuse me McMaster and his goon squad. And on December 3rd, we got information that people were going five people are going to appear before the grand jury, the federal grand jury the following day on December 4th. And that these were the people who were involved in Hoffa's murder. And it came out on the third, the night before, that the four guys were Tommy, Andretta, Stevie, Andretta, Selber, Guglio and Gabriel. Tony pro guys from New Jersey, the Tony pro guys from New Jersey, Tony pro, of course, being one of the three people Hoffa was supposed to meet at the Red Fox on July 30th, along with Tony Giacalone and and your buddy Lenny Schultz. And so and so I was clinically depressed because I figured well McMaster is not even in this game. And I was sitting at my desk in the free press newsroom. And John Openall, who was city editor at the time came up and he said, take one guess who the fifth guy at the grand jury is. I was down the stairs like a shot, ran across the street, went up to the grand jury where the grand jury was and Roland McMaster was there. And I got in his face. And we had been to McMaster and I had been talking over the phone. This is the first time I met him. And then remember how it was it was a guy named Ralph Picardo who put these guys together. And Ralph Picardo said that Hoffa had been murdered in Detroit, stuffed into a 55 gallon drum, loaded onto a gateway transportation truck and shipped to New Jersey. And Ralph put just so people know Ralph Picardo was a driver for Tony pro Anthony Provenzano, who was a coppo in the Genovese crime family ran their New Jersey operations, all their labor union operations and Picardo was pro's driver. So Picardo was probably a first rival. No, he was with pro. He was with pro. No, I'm saying he was Tony pro's driver. Okay, so I thought she said rival. Okay, driver, his show for you should drive Tony pro around. And so what had happened was, I think it was like about five or six days after Hoffa disappeared. Picardo who had been convicted of manslaughter was doing 20 years at Trenton State Penitentiary in New Jersey, received a prison visitation from Steve Andretta, one of the four alleged conspirators co conspirators in the Hoffa case. And this is like five or six days after the murder. And allegedly Tommy Andretta had come along with him with with their accountant. They had some business deals they were doing together. And when Steve Andretta supposedly was alone with Picardo, he gave him the basic details of Hoffa's murder that Hoffa was killed in Detroit, stuffed into a 55 gallon drum loaded onto a gateway transportation truck and shipped to New Jersey. When the FBI when he flipped in November of 1975, Bob Garrity from the Detroit field office of the FBI questioned him. Well, he wasn't just from the field office. Bob Garrity was the the head of the Hoffa task force. It was his case for five years or six years before he transferred to Pittsburgh. And I know to this very day, this eats at him. Bob has trouble sleeping at night in the 2020s, because of the case that he investigated almost it. That's how personal that's how personal this is with some of these guys. I've got some emails from them and you're exactly right. Yeah. And so and so the FBI and Bob Garrity and the FBI said, do you know who killed him? He said, well, Steve didn't tell me that. But I know that San Bernardino had a contract given to him by Tony Provenzano. And I don't know exactly what happened with that. And they said, did he tell you where they took him in New Jersey? And he said, no. But when I was when I was with the Provenzano crew, we would bury people at Brother Moscato's dump, which was in Jersey City. So the FBI did a cursory search of Brother Moscato's stuff in Jersey City, this toxic waste stuff, which was filled with quicksand wild dogs and rats. And they, they didn't have a specific place to look in this 39, 40 acre area. And so what could they do? There was nothing they could do so they dropped it. And essentially Brother Moscato's dump was dormant. I interviewed the Brugulios and the Andretas in October of 1976. I asked them what they thought about Brother Moscato. They they slapped it away. Dan, let me let me just interrupt you for one second, because I'm fascinated by the fact that the Brugulios and the Andretas agreed to sit down with you for not just an interview, but for a tape interview, you taped it three and a half hours. So do you get a feeling for what their what what what what do they feel like they could gain from it? I mean, I guess getting their story out. What happened was is I was in New Jersey. Rolling Stone had asked me to do a pull together for the one year anniversary of the grand jury. And so it was the late summer early fall of 76. And I was putting my research together. And so I decided to call Sal Brugulio at 560 and local 560 in New Jersey. And so, you know, I got through to when we got on the phone and I said, who are you? And I said, I'm Daniel damper reporter. I was also working with Jack Anderson at the time, the syndicated columnist. And I put the Jack Anderson credit up first, because I didn't know how he was going to rack the Rolling Stone. And so I so with Jack Anderson, I said, and Jack Anderson was viewed as a civil right, civil rights, civil libertarian guy. And so I said, he says, what do you want to talk to me about? And I said, Well, Mr. Gil, I want to talk about the Huffa murder. He says, what do you think? Why do you think I have something to know? Why do you think I know something about that? And I said, because Mr. Brugulio, you've neither been arrested or indicted. And I think the government is violating your civil rights. Now, I've never met a mafia guy who's not against wiretapping. I've never met a mafia guy who's not in favor of strong personal privacy laws. And I've been bored for hours like you have, Scott, listening to what mafia guys whine about the alleged pinchments upon the rights and freedoms by the FBI and the IRS. And so so Brugulio said, come on up. So I went up to 50 life 50 life, 560 by myself. And I I was in the waiting room. And then Brugulio comes in with his lawyer, Bill Bufalino, who's from Detroit, who's from Detroit. Go ahead, who I want to just, Dan, I think you know this book. I guess it's possible. Maybe you don't. So I'd like to get your comment on it, whether you know it or not. Bill Bufalino, who was portrayed in the movie, The Irishman, which is we can go, we can go over to five hours on that, but we're not going to. But in the movie, the Irishman Ray Romano plays Bill Bufalino. And he did a great job. Yes, but he's portrayed as, as, as somewhat meek. Bill Bufalino was not a meek. And I want to say, not only was Bill Bufalino not meek, if you believe the FBI, Bill Bufalino wasn't just an attorney or an in-house counsel for the Detroit mafia. He was a made member of the Detroit mafia. I never knew that, but he told me that I was asking about Russell Bufalino. They during the interview, they kept on talking. Russell Bufalino was not on my radar screen when I interviewed the Brugulio's Indian Dreadas. And it was, it was Bill Bufalino who kept on bringing, it was, the interview itself was when Bufalino says, you want to join us for lunch. And I said, sure. So we went down to the, to the garage and we, and we got into Brugulio's car. Brugulio was driving, Bill was in the front seat and I was in the back seat. And I was, I was uncomfortable as to say the least, but we just drove across, we drove across the street to a restaurant, got out of the car, went to the back and there was Gabe Brugulio. There was Gabe Brugulio and Steve Andretta. It was Gabe Brugulio and Steve Andretta. And so I, I interviewed those guys not on tape during the lunch, but then Gabe had to peel off and then Bill Bufalino, Gabe Brugulio, Sal Brugulio, Steve Andretta. And I went up to Sammy Provenzato's office. That's Tony's brother. Tony's brother. And I forget whether he was, I think he was some sort of officer in the local at the time. And we were in the president's office, Tony Pro's one time office. And it was there that we did the three and a half hour interview. And then Steve put me on the phone with Tommy before the interview ended. And I was able to talk to Tommy as well. And so, yeah, that was a fun time. But all of that was kind of forgotten. And then in 2006, there was the FBI's search warrant. McMaster's dig. That was when I made my bones. It got into the Hoffa case. It was the first dig that I covered. That was, that was righteous. I mean, the FBI, as far as I'm concerned, has done nothing but righteous work on this case. I think they've been really excellent. I got a few complaints with the way they've handled my thing. But they've been righteous on this thing. And any, any problems there have been have had been problems of omission and certainly not commission. The FBI wants to solve this case badly. I'm sure this is a better recap. And I want to do everything. And I'm sure you want to do everything to help them do that. And so the, so McMaster's farm was targeted. And Don Wells was the, was the key guy. And he was the person who lived at the farm with McMaster. And I knew Don back in, in 1975. I interviewed Don, I spent, I spent some time with them back then. And then when I interviewed him in August of 2009, after three years after the, the search, he told me. And they spent, and just for people that don't remember it, that, that, that was probably their, the FBI, when they dug up what was known as the Hidden Dreams Ranch, right at the border of Commerce Township in Milford in Metro Detroit. Wix, Wix of Michigan, right? Yeah. Well, it's like three cities coming together, Milford, Wixlam and Commerce Township are all kind of in that, at the intersection. But it was probably the longest, most expensive dig that the feds have ever done. They were there for 10 days. Because they had to tear down the barn and millions of dollars were put into that dig. What happened was when, when, when I talked to Don Wells, I went, I was, I was there early in the morning. I think it was August 9 2009. And I said, and they had put together a, this, this, this composite, this collage of photographs of what the farm looked like in July 1975. And there are all these pictures of what it looked like. And I said, let's go. Let's go down there. So we grabbed the, I grabbed the, the poster board that they put together for me. We drove down to, what was it Hidden Dreams? It was called, called Hidden Dreams Ranch, which, which was like, it was right off of Pontiac Trail, right off Pontiac Trail. And I remember we went in and the farmhouse where they lived was almost, it was completely dilapidated and almost it looked like something out of Dresden. And then when you went the dirt road back, there was this big wall. So it had been perimetered and had been pieced off and parts of the property had been sold. So we went around to the front of the house on the other, because what, what, what I wanted to know was Don Well said that there was a, there was a, a hole that McMaster had dug 40, 40 yards to the, to the southeast of the intersection between a dirt road and railroad track. The bottom line is, without kidding it to the Musia, the bottom line is, is that the FBI, instead of going to the southeast, they went to the southwest. They dug in the wrong place. And it was based on a, this, this, this horrible map that the Don had drawn while he was in prison. What was crazy was, instead of taking him out of prison and down in Lexington, Kentucky and bringing him up to Milford Township to actually supervise and oversee the, the dig. So we could say, here's what's here. They went by this, this, this horrible map that he had drawn. And the conclusion was they dug in the wrong place. They didn't need to, I was there and I paced off the, the 40 yards and it was an empty pasture. The barn, the big barn was over here. And so, but the big news that Don had was that the night before the murder, the night before Hoffa was murdered, he was at, was at Carl's Shop House. Carl's Shop House, which was with Rola McMaster and Stan Barr. Go ahead, explain Carl's Shop House. Carl's Shop House was a favorite haunt of the Detroit mob. It is literally across the street from what is now the Motor City Casino in the old Wonder Bread building. But across from the Wonder Bread building was Carl's Shop House. And I know Tony Giacalone, who we haven't mentioned in the first half hour of this, that he was meeting with Hoffa. Go ahead. Sorry, you're right. So Tony Giacalone, who, you know, was probably the, one of the quarterbacks, if not the quarterback of this whole conspiracy can sit, you know, died in 2001 as a, you know, one of the top suspects, not the top suspect in the case. Carl's Shop House was his favorite restaurant. So on this night before, on the night before Hoffa's murder, Don is there with, he's having dinner with Rola McMaster and McMaster's brother-in-law, Stan Barr. And Stan Barr, and Stan Barr was the head of Gateway, Gateway Transportation. And so while they were having dinner, Tony Provenzano at Carl's Shop House in Detroit, the night before the murder comes up to them and says, it's going to be a great day tomorrow. It's going to be a great day. He says, Mack, you got a minute? You know, I want to see it privately at the bar. And so Mack gets up and walks away and Don says to Barr, he says, what's tomorrow? And he says, oh, you know, Provenzano and Hoffa are meeting and, you know, they're going to try to bury the hatchet. So McMaster comes back to the table with Provenzano and Provenzano points to Stan and to McMaster. And he says, you two guys know where you're going to be tomorrow, right? And McMaster says, yeah, we're off trade on that. And where they were that day was they were at a meeting with Gateway officials. And at least for part of the day, it's still unclear where McMaster was at exactly two, three, three o'clock that afternoon. And I believed that, I believe that that Hoffa had been had been, I believe the FBI was correct when they said that Hoffa's body was at McMaster's farm on that on that day. And they said the FBI, there was no evidence that it had ever been moved. And so as a consequence of that, that was something that I that I sort of felt that I would embrace. But the but the situation was one in which I was investigating a crooked judge down in Florida. And he was getting payoffs from Mafia guys. And the Mafia guy who was this principal payoff guy was a guy named Philip Moscato. And so I said to my partner, David corn, who I was writing the story with, who's a reporter here in Washington, a friend of mine. And I, and I said, I know who this guy is. He's from the Hoffa case. So he says, what do you want to do? I said, I'm a call. So I called Moscato up and I said, you know, I don't want to talk to I want to talk. He said, yeah, come on up, come on up. So I go up to his I drive up to his home at brick New Jersey. And nice fellow, he's a he's a he's a soldier. Yeah, as you pointed out, was a as a capital of the Genevies crime family. Moscato was a soldier. So he was in the provenzano sphere of influence there. And he was a huge loan shark. He controlled all the loan sharking in Bergen County, Hudson County. And he was the one who owned Moscato's dump and Jersey City that Ricardo had referred to, which is where Hoffa was. And so I was having my conversation with with Moscato about the on tape about the about the Crippen judge, which he admitted making payoffs to him. And then he and then I said, you know, the first time I heard about you was during the Hoffa case. And he said, you wrote that book about Hoffa, right? And I said, yeah, 1978. And he said, I said, so tell me what happened? And he told me that Hoffa's body was at his dump. Told me the body was at the dump. And I was stunned by that. And it was almost like he had what what what's what's the what's the phrase when you just said something you wish you hadn't said it, you had that look on his face. But I had this thing memorialized. And then when you guys were investigating, Joseph really, not Joseph really, but Tony's really claimed that that that Hoffa had been buried in that open township, open county. No, the toco is the old toco farm, the old toco farm, right? Yeah. And when that was going on, and I called Moscato, and I said, what do you think of what's going on in Detroit right now? And his response was, Dan, I think I already told you what happened. And so that was fascinating. And I kept I kept on where I stayed loyal to Moscato for seven years from 2007 to 2014, when he died in February of 2014. And he during that period of time, he gave me information with the frequency that a kosher butcher sells pork chops. But he did give me, he said that that Hoffa was picked up by Vito Giacalone. He didn't tell me where he was taken. But he said that Moscato that that Salva Guglia was the killer. And that Hoffa's body was stuffed into a 55 gallon drown taken to New Jersey. And he said that it was buried in his stuff. He said, Picardo basically had it right. That's what he told me. And so years later, I run into, I meet Frank Capola, whose father, Paul Capola, was the partner of film Moscato at the dump. And he tells me this story about how Moscato had given his father the assignment to bury Hoffa. And that and that Frank Capola on September 29 2019 2019 took me to that area, which I filmed with about two or three cameras on showing me this alcove under the Pulaski sky where he said Hoffa's body was. And that's where I've been lingering ever since. Let's unpack this a little bit more in terms of thank you for letting me get all that out. No, no, it's good. No, good. It's good context. McMaster and the Goon Squad attacked a couple of Hoffa loyalists that have an end and a demise similar to Hoffa. Well, I have five murders that I call Hoffa fallout murders that took place between 1976 and 1984. You have Ralph Proctor, you have Otto Wendell, which are two names that you mentioned. Right. Otto Wendell was shot December of 77. 77. Okay, 77. And then Proctor's killed in August of 84. Was that used as an accidental shoot? He had a gun in his... No, that was a murder. And I believe that both of these murders, like I said, they had tangential connections to Hoffa. I interviewed both of them, but I spent some time with Otto. Well, and this is what I'm getting at. I would like to interject a name into our conversation that gets glossed over. I think... Go ahead. I know what you're going to say. Go ahead. When we're talking about the Hoffa case, but I think he plays a big role in not just the Hoffa case, but then in some of these fallout murders. And that's Vince Maley. And little Vince Maley was the nephew of the longtime Detroit mob under boss, Angela Maley. And little Vince was a powerhouse. This is a guy that served in World War II, got numerous purple hearts, was in what is now considered the... Not the seals, but the Delta Force, like the elite of the elite. He was General MacArthur's driver. This is a guy that could have been anything in the world, but he came back to Detroit after the war and became a mob guy, a very successful businessman. But what did he control? A number of businesses, but one of the major industries he controlled was the steel hauling industry. Steel hauling business, right. Which brings him close to McMasters. And who did Roland McMaster have breakfast with the day after Hoffa's murder? Right, Vince Maley. And Vince Maley was someone that had helped him and his dad and his uncle had helped put Jimmy Hoffa into power. They were... Angela Maley, right. Angela Maley, who was little Vince's uncle and his dad, Frank Maley, who they called the Music Man, because Frank controlled all of the jukeboxes and entertainment wing, I guess, of the of the Detroit mafia. And Maley is accused, or I shouldn't say accused, is suspected of having a role in both Auto Wendell's murder and Anthony, or sorry, and Ralph Proctor's murder. Again, I call the... I've never heard that. Yeah. It would make sense. It would make sense. Yes. So Maley accused Wendell of testifying in a grand jury that sent Maley to prison. Right. He's killed, like you said, in late 77. It's made to look like a suicide, which is a staple of Detroit mob murders over the years. They... Don Wells told me that... And one of the reasons why Don Wells flipped was because he didn't want... He knew that McMaster was involved in Ralph Proctor's murder, which he just... And he did not want that to happen to him. Go ahead. So Wendell's murder is veiled as a suicide. Initially, the investigators claim it's a homicide. Maley was always a top suspect. Carla Lakata ends up dead on the anniversary of the Hoffa case, July 30th, 1981, at a residence that I suspect very likely could have been the place where they killed Hoffa. Carla Lakata was a mafia prince. His dad was the godfather of Los Angeles, and then he married into the Detroit family and was brother-in-laws with the Topo brothers, who Jack Topo was the acting boss of the Detroit mob at the time Hoffa disappeared. And his death is still officially ruled a suicide. There's a lot of FBI agents that believe that he was murdered. The gun that killed him was found about 20 feet away from him with no prints, and he allegedly shot himself in the chest. So these are kind of like following similar lines. And then Proctor is in 1984, Proctor ends up dead a couple of days after he has a altercation with Roland McMaster's. Proctor had left the Teamsters and had started his own union. He had loaned the Teamsters $100,000. He was trying to get that money back, was being unsuccessful, was unsuccessful in getting the money back and then started threatening McMaster's and Maley. And he ends up murdered in August of 1984. He's going to a meeting with Vince Maley's son-in-law, Anthony Lapiana, who if you are someone who's going to adhere to what the FBI believes is the underboss of the Detroit mafia right now, Jack Topo's protege and nephew via marriage. Proctor tells his wife, I'm going to meet Tony Lapiana at the Chinese restaurant up the street, and he's found dead in that parking lot. So, and then there was another, so that's three, there was another one of an attorney that ended up dead in 76 in New York. And then I'm blanking on another one, but what do you think, yeah. To me, the day I got hired by NBC in 75, August 3rd or 4th, 75, and Irving Irlevine and his crew said, why don't you come with us to do interviews. The first place we went was Lenny Schultz's house. So there, you brought, you just brought it across back to us. The one thing that I have totally embraced in this case is where Scott Bernstein has interviewed, and I'll let you tell the story in your own words, but interviews this guy who is very close to Lenny, who was very close to Lenny Schultz and tells him an amazing story which you shared with me and I have completely embraced as being true. Go ahead. So you brought, I'm glad you reeled me and this is where I was going. So from, from Vince Maley and Roland McMaster, who were, you know, I would call sleeper characters in this story. Everybody hears about Tony Pro and Tony Jack and the Bragulios, but there are, you know, sleeper characters, guys that are lesser known, but could be very well equally as important. Yeah. Lenny Schultz is the third guy Hoffa was supposed to be that. Yes. And he remember he on his pad, he had Tony Pro, Tony, Tony Jack. And in my book in the Hoffa Wars, which came out in 1978, I eliminated Lenny Schultz from the discussion because Lenny Schultz had made it very clear he was going to sue anybody. He sued everybody. He didn't sue, he didn't sue me because I, I left them out until we had better information. But after your story, to me, he is back in the game again. He was very, the information that you have, which I completely and totally embrace. Go ahead. Very litigious. So this brings us to Lenny Schultz. Okay. So Lenny Schultz is kind of the forgotten member of that would be lunch party. For people that don't know who Lenny Schultz was, was a old time Jewish racketeer in Detroit, very close to the Giacalone brothers was Tony Jack's liaison in the labor unions. He owned a labor consulting firm. He was tied into the old purple gang, which was the Jewish mafia. As a young boy, he was an Aaron Aaron boy for the original purple gang guys, and then gravitated towards the Italians. So I came upon a sort of Joshua door, never Joshua. So I'm going to get to that in a second. So I came upon a source. This must have been in 19 or 20 2019 or 2020, who was someone that I had gotten information before from and it had been accurate. Had never spoken about Hoffa. He approached me one day and wanted to talk to me. And he proceeds to tell me he he's a guy still alive. He I'm not going to get more specific than that other than he was a one time. He was he was one time muscle for Lenny. He was a guy that would sometimes drive Lenny around bodyguard Lenny and and disperse beatings in on union ran construction sites if they needed to be done. This guy told me that Lenny Schultz confided in him that Hoffa was killed at Lenny's house, which, you know, at first I subscribed to the Lakata theory. Lakata's house is about five minutes from the Red Fox restaurant where Hoffa was last seen. Lenny Schultz is about three or four minutes. Lenny Schultz's house is about three or four minutes in the opposite direction from that location. Schultz was supposed to be at that meeting. He helped arrange the sit down. He was very close to Jimmy Hoffa. Hoffa and Schultz went back all the way to the, you know, back to the 1940s together and had worked very closely together. And Dan mentioned it to me this is this is is kind of like a litmus test or a deciding factor in the opinion of someone that would give this credibility. Dan mentioned the Joshua door furniture chain and Joshua door was a very famous trendy furniture store in Detroit owned by a Jewish businessman named Harvey Leach, who had been introduced to the Jackalones by Lenny Schultz. And a year before Hoffa was murdered in 1974, Harvey Leach was murdered after a dispute with the Jackalones. And according to the FBI was murdered at Lenny Schultz's house. So if the theory that I would not have a problem getting behind would be if the Detroit mob felt comfortable killing someone in Lenny's house in 1974. It's not a huge jump to think that they would feel comfortable killing someone there in 1975, especially with the proximity to where Hoffa was kidnapped, the trust that he had towards Lenny Schultz. And then this story tells me that they turned the body over to Roland McMaster. And the and the trip from from Schultz's house to the Hidden Dreams Ranch would be pretty much a straight shot. You would Lenny Schultz was at 13 in Franklin, you'd have to divert about two miles to 15 mile road. But if you take 15 mile road to Pontiac Trail, you dead end it to Hidden Dreams. So it'd be a really easy, easy route to take. No, I had when I was doing the Moscatos dump thing in the Jersey Alcove, the I had been contacted by the FBI. And they wanted my cooperation. And I'm 73 years old. And so this is use it or lose it time. As far as I'm concerned, I wanted to cooperate fully. And so that was in September of 2020, when they first contact, I was 70 years old then. So then the FBI asked me to come to a meeting in Newark, New Jersey at the field office, the FBI field office. And the Detroit field office, a lot of guys and the US attorney, the temporary US attorney from from from Michigan came to the meeting along with the so it was a meeting of the Detroit field office and the Newark field office. And with a lot of superstars there in the room. And it was for the sole purpose of listening to me put this together. And so I put the whole thing together. And they said, where do you think he was killed? And I said, there's this great reporter who's the world's expert on the Detroit mafia, Dave Scott Bernstein. And they knew who you were all the Detroit people, of course, knew who you were. And I said, That's what I believe I believe that Hoffa was murdered at Lenny Schultz's house, that they turned the body over the role of McMaster, Roland McMaster, they took the body to hidden dreams, farm. That's where they that's where that's where the gateway truck was. They put them in a 55 gallon drum loaded onto the gateway transportation truck, and then shipped them to New Jersey. Now, when I wrote the Hoffa wars, I had a problem in that I believed what Ralph Ricardo was saying. Hoffa was murdered in Detroit, stuffed into a 55 gallon drum loaded onto a gateway transportation truck. But it made no sense to me, Scott, that they're going to transport this guy 600 miles away. It made no sense. You know, the stand bar was ahead of the steel division and gateway transportation, which was right next door to the Ford River Rouge plant, where they crush and smell tons of steel every day. And I met this mafia guy named Chuck Cremolde, who was in the Witsek program from Chicago. And Cremolde told me that specifically that Hoffa was crushed and smelted. And and so instead of going all the way in my book in 78, instead of going all the way with Picardo, I said that Hoffa was, I went with Picardo that he was killed in Detroit, stuffed into a 55 gallon drum loaded onto a gateway transportation truck, but then I have him going being disposed of, being crushed and smelted right there in Dearborn. And so, but it wasn't until Moscato said to me, it's at my dump. And then Frank tells me what his father said, it shows me the location. That's when I started to embrace the final part of Picardo's story. And once again, Moscato said he basically had it right, that Picardo had it right. So Dan, I want to ask you a question and also pontificate something that I I feel with both Lenny Schultz and Carl Lakata, you have two houses that if it's not one, it's the other to me. It's a no brainer. It's not one of the it's one of those two houses. Why hasn't the FBI gone to either unless they've done it without my knowledge, gone to either one of those houses who by the way, I can, I'm not going to give the names of the owners, but I can tell you that the owners of both of those houses would welcome with open arms an FBI crime scene unit or they're they're the type of people that embrace the potential history in their house. It comes down to what we were talking about the other day when we were talking about Milwaukee, and it's getting probable cause to get the search warrant to do this. I mean, they're going to have to. What I'm saying is you don't need to search warrant. That's the point I'm making. You could knock on the door at Lakata's house or knock up the door at Lenny Schultz house and they would let you in and do whatever they so and then added to this, I want to throw this out at you. My source on the Lenny Schultz thing, this is a lot more difficult to prove, but my source on the Lenny Schultz thing said not only was Hoffa's murdered at Lenny Schultz house, but that the murder weapon is in the backyard is today, currently is in the backyard and that Schultz's backyard in the 1970s was a murder weapon graveyard quote unquote. That effect when we interviewed Leslie Schultz, it was there in his backyard. And if you go to his property or the old property that well still it's an it's an existing residence. Schultz hasn't lived in it in 40, 50 years, but if you go to the property and you talk to the neighbors, which I have, and you go into the back for whatever reason and the speculation can go out in someone's head. He was pouring concrete back there on an almost like monthly basis. And it's this pretty big expansive acreage on the back of the house. And there are every 50 yards or so, there's like a random patch of concrete. And I just got to a GPR that the people are willing to a GPR. Well, I've been looking for someone to finance that privately. I've got a couple of people that are might be interested. I just don't understand why the feds wouldn't be jumping at the opportunity to at least try to lock down one aspect of it. They did it with the crazy Frank sharing theory. They went to the house on Beaverland in Northwest Detroit and did a DNA or actually that was I should say that wasn't the feds. That was actually I think that was an open county. But whoever it is, I would like to see them go to Schultz or Lakata's house and do some type of DNA scrub, get in the backyard. Look, if you find if you did find a weapon, since we don't have a body, you would have to somehow find off as DNA on the weapon, I guess. So I got to ask you this. Yeah, this we're talking about. Tell me about Tony Powell. So then that's another sleeper figure in this whole thing. And I've come to believe my theory is that the hit team consisted of Billy Giacalone, Sal Bregulio, and Tony Palazzolo. And I will respectfully disagree with Mr. The three people that I believe kidnapped and killed Jimmy Hoffa were Billy Giacalone, Vito Giacalone, which is the Scotto said he was driving the car. Sal Bregulio, who was Tony Pro's guy, and Tony Palazzolo. And I said, I'll respectfully disagree with Mr. and say that I believe pal was driving the car. Billy Jack was in the front passenger seat. Sal Bregulio was in the back passenger seat with Hoffa. And I believe now what the FBI has come to believe that Palazzolo was the killer. But I do believe Bregulio and Billy Giacalone were present as representatives for their respective capos, Tony Pro and Tony Jack. So Tony Powell was a, at that time he was a young soldier that according to the theories that have emerged over the last 10, 20 years used his participation in the Hoffa homicide as leverage to propel himself up the ladder in organized crime circles. He was rewarded for what my source is telling me. He was rewarded with being given control over Canada for his initial participation in the early 80s, late 70s. He was given control over Detroit's Canadian affairs. Was he even related to the tacos or the Zarellis? No, but he was very close. His family dated back to Sicily. A lot of wise guys in his family, his father, his brother. He came up under a guy named Pete Vitale. Pete Vitale, they called him Bozzi. Who was Jimmy Quasarano, who were the owners of Central Sanitation. Yeah, so Pete Vitale was the godfather of Greek town in Detroit, which to this day is still the main nightlife district. Bozzi Vitale was a downriver guy, which is a very specific part of Detroit, kind of southwest cluster of kind of factory towns. And Pal was a downriver guy and was mentored by Pete Vitale. He was also very close to the Jackalones and the Tokos. Eventually became a capo and then became a conciliary before he died in 2019. He was caught on a wire in the early 90s, bragging of participating in Hoffa's murder and killing Hoffa. I think what solidified with the federal government, his role in it, came from Tony Zarelli, who named him as the killer, even though they didn't find the body really told him to go. At my command performance in New Jersey at the FBI field office, which was the Detroit field office and the New Jersey field office, the Newark field office working together. After my lecture, I felt like a Vegas lounge act walking around the room explaining things. And after the lecture, we went down to Moscato stuff. We all got cars and went down to Moscato stuff. And while I was there, I talked to the head of the FBI investigation in Detroit, Mark Silsky, who was there. And I said to him, Mark, there's a rumor out here that you guys have a wiretap of Tony Powell confessing to the murder in no uncertain terms. And he looked at me, smiled knowingly. You said no comment. That's what he said. When I was, I was you might be honest, something here, because you said that Jack Loney's brother and Salvador Guglio. And who was the third guy? Powell, which to me, Tony Powell. And I just wonder what would Hoffa have gotten in the car with Tony Powell. Yeah, he's been dealing with with the Jack Loney's in order to set up the meeting. And they've been coming out to the to his home and out at the lake. But what would he have trusted to you, Salvador Guglio, I knew South, South told me that he knew Hoffa very well. And interestingly, on December 3 1975, when we were getting these names about these guys who were going to appear before the grand jury, I had been working, I'm a reporter who takes sides, as you know, and I aligned myself when I first got into this thing with the rank and file reform movement of the Teamsters Union, I was working with the Teamsters United rank and file, the teachers for a Democratic Union, I was working with the Professional Drivers Council on Safety Health, the rank and file reform organization trying to rid them of the union of the mafia. And what we were trying to do was in this in this effort to to to take sides, we were trying to figure out how we could do this without causing problems to the FBI's own investigation. And because we, you know, it was interesting back then, as a young reporter, like I was I said, I was 25 in 1975 when Hoffa disappeared and I was on this from day one, I said, FBI guys, they would, they weren't they weren't saying, here's what happened and tell me everything. But they would say, what do you know? And then I would say, this is what I know. And they would say, okay, we'll stay on that gateway track, but get off that a culture thing. Yeah, you know, they would make sure that I stayed on track. These days, it is always it is, they want to they want to juice you for information, but they don't want to give it to you. I was more than happy to give it to them. I had, I had created a webpage for them that I put online, where I, it was protected. It was photographs, film, little timelines, documents and everything. I wanted them to have I gave them everything I had. The one thing that I wanted was to be there when they did this damn search, when they got their search warrant, where the judge said, probably because it existed off with there in that alcove. And they did not invite me to that Daniel Moore, and they ended up not digging in the one place that they did it in the dark. They did it in the dark. It's the first dark Hoffa search they've ever done. I still don't completely understand what the method of the madness is behind that. I personally, I know Dan took it personally, I took it personally. I had been informed by some sources of mine within the investigation that we were going to be able to be present. Those sources told me that they were told by their superiors to lie to me. I know that some of my reporting when it comes to Hoffa has upset prosecutors, because they feel like there are leaks. And I know when the new prosecutor took over, there was some type of meeting basically saying nobody talked to Scott Bernstein. But you know, I'm just trying to push the needle and find some closure here. I feel like we've gotten so far, you know, people like Dan and I, the investigators themselves, historians, guys like Jack Goldsmith, I feel like we're literally on the goal line. We've had trouble punching it in for the touchdown. I'd like to see something before the 50 year anniversary, which is coming up in two years. My problem was this. I had found out about the, I knew when they had done their first search in October of 2021, I knew about that right away. And I knew what they had, what they had basically found with their scans and what they had not found. I had an eyewitness there. In fact, two, I had two eyewitnesses there when it happened. And June of 2022, when they did the big thing in the first week of June 2022, in fact, you just told me something. I did not know this was under the darkness. I was at this spot at 10, 11 o'clock at night and it is the one spooky area. Let me tell you. And so I, I found out a month later, I found out on July 1st. We all did. I found out. I almost got sued. The history channel wanted to sue me. They felt like I was in breach of a contract because I told them I was going to be able to be at the dig. Well, I called up my, there's, what happened was I always stayed loyal to this one FBI agent and do work. I never went over his head. I never went around him, but he was a mid-level guy who had no decision making power, but he was a guy who brought me to the prom. And so that's the guy I was going to go home with. He was a good guy, but he couldn't make final decisions. And, and I think that's where everything, in my case, what happened was I had a team of people. We were working together and we had a split on our team. And I was trying to, I was in the middle of the split. And this part of my team was working with the Newark office and my source at the Newark field office. My mid-level source with no decision making. The other part of my group was working with Detroit. And what happened was when I found out on July 1st, what had happened was there was a friend of mine from Boston who does a PBS show out there. And he was interviewing a guy who knows what he's talking about. And the guy, and my friend said, what do you think about Dan's theory about New Jersey? And he said, oh, that's over. The FBI searched and they found nothing. And my friend called me up and told me this. And so the alarm bells are obviously going off. So I called my, my source at Newark and I said, hey, what is this? And he said, yeah, you know, let's talk on Tuesday. I said, no, right now we talk now. What is going on? And because I felt foolish, I was turning in reports over the past month to the FBI about things and they already knew what had happened and they weren't telling me anything. Anyway, we had given them this one spot where our GPR companies had found barrels. And I said, did you go to that spot? And they said, yeah, yeah, we dug that up. And so I called one of my friends in New Jersey, in Jersey City. And I said, do me a favor, go down to the site, take a camera. I want to see what they did. And I want specifically the site that we gave them, the spot that we gave them, where that where our GPR people found the barrels. And so he went down there, you could see where they chewed up everything, where that all the digging was in the excavations. And then when he goes to the spot that we gave them on a silver platter, it was pristine, let alone an excavator. He didn't even stick a shovel in this area. And so I called him back and I said, hey, you guys didn't do anything there. It is completely pristine. I've got the film right here. He said, okay, let me turn this over to Detroit. So he turns it over to Detroit. And Detroit was kind enough to do a Zoom call with me, where I was allowed to ask questions. And they would give me whatever answers they could give me. It was the most open time we had during the entire thing. And they admitted that they did not have, that did not do that spot. And so I've been saying to them, you know, listen, you know, our GPR team, it's not like we got to fly them in from California. They're right there in New Jersey, they're 20 minutes away. You guys in the field office, you're 10 minutes away from Wisconsin. You guys could do this at lunchtime. Let's get this over with. And for whatever, I know the FBI, they're busy guys now and everything else. And like I said, I don't think anything, the fairies has happened. I think this was a miscommunication between the Detroit office and the Newark office. But I got to tell you, I believe that Ralph Picardo told the FBI the truth in 1975. I believe that Phil Moscato told me the truth when he said Picardo basically had it right, that the body was at his dump. And that Frank Capola's father told him the truth when he said he buried Hoffa at the instruction of Phil Moscato, and that Frank Capola told me the truth when he took me down to the site on September 29, 2019, and showed me on camera where Hoffa's body had been buried in that alcove. And there's a lot of stuff that goes on in between all of this, a lot of drama and everything else. But that's basically where we are right now. And I'm sort of sitting here, lost in space, because you know, what I had been, what I put my entire career on basically was that this was there. I'm sitting here and still waiting like Ahab for the white whale. Did they give a reason? They said, why we didn't dig there? We think, again, this is pure theory, because we're not getting anything out of these guys. But we think that there was a miscommunication between Detroit about what they had been told by part of my team, the GPR people, and what wound up with New Jersey. My guy in New Jersey, he may have been a mid-level guy without much power, but he was motivated and he wanted this to happen. And I know Mark Silsky in Detroit, the head of the Hoffa Investigation. He's an honest guy, and he was motivated and he wanted this to happen. And I knew that I was at the meeting in March of 2021 when I met with the joint Detroit FBI field offices. I sort of wanted to see who was kind of in charge. And I brought as a present my three and a half hours of interviews with Hoffa's alleged killers, the Brugulios and the Adrettas, because all the FBI ever got, or the US Attorney's Office, or the strike force ever got out of these guys was the fifth. So I gave the three and a half hours of tapes to my guy in New Jersey, and I watched him to see who he gave that tapes to. He gave them to Mark Silsky in Detroit. So I knew who was running this operation. And that was the same guy who said no comment when I asked him whether he had Tony Powell on tape. So you might be right on that. And if you're right on that, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong, because you said that you said that Salvador Guglio was in there. I believe it's Salvador Guglio and Billy Giacalone, just like Moscato said, we're a part of that hit team. I believe that the reason Hoffa got into the car was because he saw Billy Giacalone and Salvador Guglio. So the bottom line is for me is that Jimmy Hoffa gets into a car driven by Vito Giacalone. They go to Lenny Schultz's house where he's killed by Salvador Guglio. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Tony Powell is there. They then take Hoffa and they deliver him to Rolla McMaster at Hidden Dreams, where he's loaded on to a gateway transportation truck, shipped to New Jersey. He's already in New Jersey. It's not even known that Hoffa's missing by the times he's in Jersey. And I'll tell you two things. One, it was a Tony Provenzano from what I understand wanted the body in New Jersey. He wanted access to it. And number two, I was told that there was an attempt to plea bargain for Hoffa's body. And I was not told this by some mob guy. I was told this by an FBI agent that there was an attempt to plea bargain for Hoffa's body at the dump. Was that related to Provenzano's murder case? He didn't tell me exactly what it was related to. When I approached him, I said, listen, you know, Phil Muscato has told me that the body's at the dump. He said, Ricardo basically had it right. And so congratulations, FBI. You guys have been right all this time. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm willing to give the FBI all the credit on this thing because I'm piggybacking on the Ralph Ricardo story that the FBI developed back in 1975. All I want is a generous assist for everything I've done since, for me and my team. And so that's kind of what we're in the middle of right now. And so, you know, nonetheless, there have been other things and other players in this thing, Fox News. There's this whole thing between me and Fox News. I will say that there was good faith with the GPR thing that they had done. The GPR turned out to be nothing. But it was a good faith operation. Whether it's, you know, whether it's Eric spending 18 years embracing the Frank Sheeran story or three or four years embracing the Muscato dump story or whatever he's on through now. He's doing it in good faith and I respect him for that. Well, Dan, I can't thank you enough. Scott, thank you for your walk down memory lane. Straight to the source. Like I said, that's what we do here at the OG podcast. Dan is the source. It's been here since day one, ground zero. And again, I tip my hat to Dan because all my research, you're talking about piggybacking. I mean, I didn't know anything about Jimmy Hoffa until I consumed Dan's reporting. And he taught me about Jimmy Hoffa before I even met Dan himself. His reporting and his writing did. So, you know, I always want to pay it forward. And I consider Dan a mentor of mine and a close friend. And I have nothing but the largest amount of respect when it comes to this profession. Dan is the cold standard. He really is. Because I like to tout my versatility. That's something that I'm proud of. And Dan's versatility inspired my versatility. But Dan is someone who can write about football. You probably read my book on football. Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that in a second. But Dan, thank you so much. We're going to do this again. I'm sure probably sooner than later. I know you're not done. I'm not. Well, thank you, Dan. So this is for OGPOD, for Ben behind the glass. We will see you next week. Out.