 So I'm going to move back and forth. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for the Radical of the Revolutionary, a conversation between Stacy Klein and Braco Sudei. My name is Kyle Klein. I'm the co-producer of the LHC. Before we begin, we would like to acknowledge the past, present, and future existence of indigenous peoples, ones who have been here long before us and will be here long after we are gone. We would specifically like to acknowledge you to the NITBAK, Pocotuck, and Mopikin peoples, as well as the Wabanaki Confederacy. And as this landing acknowledgement is an invitation for you to join us in one of some active practice. You can learn more about what you can do to support local indigenous communities on our website or on our partner, Oki-Tail Cultural Center website. Some context to this conversation. Stacy and Braco met in 2018 on a panel at Monk Lake State University called Anger, Appetite, Ambition, Art, which was curated by Braco and occurred after the performances of Leonora, Lamago, and Namaesra at Monk Lake State. This was during my first year working for Double Edge. And I remember that the panel was finishing up and Stacy and I were standing there talking to people as we do as producers and directors. And we were about to leave, and she turned to me and said, I need you to wait. I have to go talk to Braco. So I wasn't here for the next part. But Braco tells it this way. That Stacy came up to her and told her, very frankly, you must come to the farm. Braco was originally in disbelief at Stacy's saying that and had no intention really of coming, but magic happens. Somehow magic happens. And eventually she found herself off the way here from the seed in that original conversation and invitation of professional and personal relationship has blossomed. And they've been sisters ever since in both vision and practice. And we didn't have to tell her to say that. It's hard to say that. So when we're listening to this conversation, I like to think about this when I was thinking about what to say to introduce this. I like to describe my favorite comic, one that I think about all the time, it's sort of how I live my life. Imagine two stick figures sitting across from each other at a table. One of them is titled Comfort and the other is titled Growth. Growth says to Comfort, I just don't think this is working out. And these two women are interested in comfort. They aren't interested in making the world comfortable. I think that they are in the business, I think and I know, they are the business of transformation. And as I consider them both by mentors, I think that the words radical and revolutionary are an interesting choice in this panel. There's an implication that there's this standard that these people are deviating from what the standard is with their work. I would urge you to consider, as we listen to this conversation, that maybe the world that they envision and expect is the reality that the action should be in. That our norm, which is based in comfort, is keeping us from our growth. And the key to change is to radical and revolutionary action. Now, how will today go? You will be handed shortly some pens and papers by Martha. We encourage you during this conversation, which will be for the next hour and a half, to write down your questions as part of this. Please come in. We can take a seat. Do you have a friend to take any seat? We encourage you to write down your questions during this. Right before the end, we will have a section for Q&A, and Samantha will come around again to collect whatever questions you have. And as we will have time, I will ask them of Brock and Stacey. The Q&A will be another 30 minutes, and then we'll head out to our kitchen to share a meal with you all. Please note that we have inward and outward seating available for you at your comfort level. So, just to go announcements, we do ask that you turn off your cell phones. We're frank in taking any photos and videos. And after this is over, we do ask that while you give us love, you refrain from hugging to prevent this reticule day. And with that, Stacey, thank you. That might have been the best introduction at least I've ever had. Thank you, Carielle. While we're passing out cards, I just want to thank Stacey Klein, my sister, the double-edged ensemble, the double-edged staff, and all who support double-edged, including everyone here today, and all who have participated in the anniversary celebrations so far this year, including the double-edged board and community. And one of the things that often happens in African communities is that we acknowledge our elders. And so I would like to do that before we get started. Is there anyone in the room? All you have to do is just... I won't ask you to stand, but if you'll at least raise your hand. Anyone over 80? Could we actually applaud them? Thank you. Anyone over 70? Anyone over 60? Now, I'm well aware that in some communities, elders are considered 50 and above. But as I get older, I would consider the 50-year-olds to be the babies. So if you're 50, just know you're getting there. I would also like to acknowledge my sister as an elder and a leader and a visionary as well. And I think what's really critical, Carielle already said it, but if you're not aware, in this program, we're here during the period of Double Edge's 40-year anniversary. And I would like to give an applause for that. So I read this statement back in December. Stacey wrote a letter in the Double Edge newsletter. It was called Friends of Double Edge Theater. And I've actually renamed it as the D-E-Double Edge Creation Story. In other words, their genesis. So I'd actually like to read a little bit of it to start us off if you don't mind. Wait a minute. I actually have three confessions to make before we start. Number one, I forgot my glasses in Montclair, New Jersey. So if I'm looking down like that, please forgive me. No, but thank you. Oh, are they drugstore? Oh. I'll actually... Thank you. I'll actually take drugstore glasses. Oh, yes, they do. Okay. Yeah? Okay. So a confession, all right. So now we have glasses. Maybe you'll be able to... And then one other confession, and Stacey may beat me up afterwards for saying this, but we both speak publicly a lot. I've spoken to 4,000 people all over the world, intimate settings, large settings, and for some reason we are both nervous, and we don't know why. So we talked about this yesterday. So if there's a bit of nervousness that happens today, just indulge and be patient with us. The third thing that you also may be able to help us with is there's a pesky fly who keeps settling around us, and so if I roll up this piece of paper, you know I am getting ready to kill this damn fly. So that's the third confession. And if he's swarming around you, snatcher, yes. Okay. All right. So, okay. I think I'm good so far with this type for the glasses, and I need them for this smaller type. Unbelievable and astonishing are the two words that occur to me when I take a moment to reflect upon our upcoming 40th anniversary and all the roads that we have traveled to get here. In this spirit, I think with gratitude of the people who helped create Double Edge from the first performance of Rights in Boston through the women's cycle, song trilogy, and the collaborations we encounter throughout our exchanges in Central Europe. The garden cycle and the move to the farm in Ashefield and our visits to Argentina. The beginning of the outdoor spectacles and the Chagall cycle and the flourishing life in this rural village. The farm is now three properties, 15 buildings, three indoor performances, four now? Jesus. This was just written in December. The farm is now four properties, 15 buildings, three indoor performance venues, and seven outdoor performance sites and still counting. Fires, stone mosaics, labyrinth, temple by the stream, design house, studio space, generative land, pastures, chickens, goats, gardens, a high tunnel, water, fields, archives. Today, we see the future. In July and August, a response to the Bacchae since 1982, when the first Double Edge Ensemble did Rights, a modern adaptation of Euripides Bacchae, I have said that actually directing the Bacchae would be the last performance of my career. Little did I anticipate that Double Edge would be 40 years old and what that would look like. So, my first question to Stacey is one of the things that we've talked about is knowing the significance of a moment and is this really your directing of your last performance and what has brought you to this moment? Okay, well that sums up while I'm nervous. You hit that nail on that. Well, when I was 25, which is when I think I directed Rights, saying I'm going to do something as my last performance and I remember saying but I didn't write this down that five years before I decided I was going to die. I was going to direct the Bacchae again. So, then I think of it, I thought of it more as a moment when we came back to it. First, I was called to come back to that material. I think the times in the last five or ten years have called me back to investigating women and women's work and women's identity and what that means to me today. And then it seemed also as if we should make a circle in our 40th year to that first period and see or maybe a spiral is a better word and see where where we've landed but also where we're looking to go to. So, I think maybe it's definitely signifying a transition so I think as I grow as I continue to grow I'm looking at what transitions and transformations are rather than making statements that I might have made when I was 25 or 30 or 35. Yeah, so I I don't foresee I'm still going with my work but I think my work is definitely transitioning and there are things that are ending about my work. You said something called you back and I have to pause there even though this was not my next question because this is going to maybe scare some people here but you and I actually do hear voices and not afraid to admit that we hear voices and that when you say you were called back can you in any way and maybe not if you cannot it's okay too can you speak about what you felt called you back? Yes I mean first I think the outside reality which is increasingly identifying itself as awful has called me back and then at a certain point I had to really investigate how I was going to call myself inward and look again inside to what I needed to explore and my spirit and my refuge and my groups refuge and our partners so I think that that transformed from an external which I guess is almost the same as when I was 25 angry young woman going from the outside and all of that this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong to what is right and what is growth and what is meaning and what's my spirit and making sure that those things are the alive things and not the things that I can't do that much about except the work on myself and so I'm just going to take a poll how many of you because I think what's really important about what Stacy is talking about is listening to some people call it the still small voice some people call it an internal voice how many of you feel like you actually hear that voice on a regular basis oh good already hands out oh good good good good I know you do and second part of that question how many of you feel like you actually respond to it in an authentic and meaningful way sometimes alright this is great good good good okay so then the question that I was actually going next question I was actually going to ask is you recently did completed an international festival which was both fabulous as well as tore your hair out which is a good thing that's kind of what directors do to tear their hair out I would just like to read a statement and then I'm going to ask you to respond to it from a friend of mine in Toronto Canada she says all journeys in art no matter the discipline or genre are formed inspired developed created from its environmental landscape geographical location traditions and histories that shape not only art but the very core of our human existence connecting on a global scale allows for informing and being informed of each other's perspectives and assist in the development and partnership of synergy that brings reciprocal understanding so I again want to ask you would you talk about your international journey and you did just a moment ago talk about how that also has transformed and those encounters has transformed your thinking and your way of working okay I'm going to start with my teacher Renna Moretzka now most recently among my ancestors and I started working with her in 1976 in Poland I got there on a kind of whim with a competition at my college so I didn't really know who she was or anything about her but ended up working with her for the last 45 years so she was part of Grotowski's lab theater and she was a major part of the work that they developed although this fact was has not been so acknowledged in the history books even the history of the lab theater she's acknowledged as a the only actress who was in all of their performances but not as one of the leading motivators of the work recently because she died her books and other people's books journals have been read and one of the people that led her work when I was working with her said that another actor in the theater named her as one of the leaders of the work and the person motivating the work among the actors this was really ignored so that's a long story to say a lot of different things that from the beginning I was working with her and two of her colleagues and but she and I had a special bond right away and under I understood her training and what she was offering as an ultimate dialogue that wasn't based on words but was based on visual, visceral, spiritual emotional physical practice yeah I had never encountered that I'd always been told I should just talk or memorize scripts or and they could be really interesting scripts but theater was about talking that was in the 70s and if you wanted to do something else you should do dance theater so this was astonishing to me and I kept going back to Poland and trying to work with her every place else sometimes successfully and sometimes I have in my journal one journal says no no no you can't come now I think that resistance is something that can be really really important so that was a beginning and also at the same time being in Poland where my family was from and where most of my family was murdered was also a really shocking place to be from all different perspectives and at that time I wrote something when I first went to Auschwitz and it was basically in all the work I did well maybe forever but through practically speaking through our garden cycle so that's the international part had many different complex moments because here was a land that had really rejected my people and at the same time here was a person that I could identify with more than I'd identified with anybody in my lifetime so it went from there we kept in relation when I started Double Edge I started working on training in my way and developing it Rena kicked me out for a while of working with her for about five years I wasn't allowed to work with her and okay you know I have to stop you and say why? Well then the five years were up and I went to visit her in her house in Wroclaw and she said when I walked in the door she was standing on her head and I stood on my head because I didn't know what else to do and I'd never been to her house and then after we finished that she said so you understand and I just said yes I mean sure so things don't always go in a straight line including this conversation sorry it's okay so do you know now if you're standing on your head or you've never figured it out yeah I know that one thing was that she knew I needed to find my own work and I was just beginning my directing career and that was in 1985 and she had been to Double Edge and she had been in the new space that we got and she saw that I was finding my way and I think I was definitely independently finding my way in her work when I went to Sardania and worked with her and I was doing my thing and she was like this is my thing you go find your thing and then we'll get back together good for her yeah that taught me a lot because it's not always the time you might love somebody and they might be your person but it might not be the time and that's been relearned over and over and I think that's even true of as we talked about in terms of being elders mentoring others literally knowing when to hold on to folks and when they're not ready as you said as well as kicking them out of the nest and saying it's time for you to go and spread wings and fly and so that's a really smart person who knows when that time is right and not only smart but also courageous because I was an important person for her it took a lot for her to do that and I really admire that and wish sometimes that I had that much strength in that way in that particular way and I mean I may not know you as well as you knew her but I think you do have that strength you said something that I didn't I mean I've only known you for years but we talk a lot and so there's I think I know a lot about you but certainly not everything over the course of your life but I did not know that your family was from Poland and that they had you know suffered the horrors of the Holocaust and this is actually I don't know why I'm hearing this but it's yeah exactly you know how well do you know someone and so actually that's a perfect segue if you don't mind into what was actually my next thought or question some of the things that you and I talked about you know there's a lot of talk now I'm sure you've all heard it about critical race theory I know everybody grown at the same time and and what I don't understand is why we're not talking about critical race history which seems just like how hard is it to make it to that transition from no this is not theory this is history and you and I have talked about the fact and I'll actually read some of the notes that we made the fact that dates times people's places are most often considered the defining circumstances of an event but what we want to acknowledge what Stacy and I want to acknowledge is the relevance of oral histories storytelling and our memories and that memory is also history memory is like you just said experiencing and messaging presence and process legend and mythology so would you again you even said how your mentor led you to an experiential practice not just some kind of rigid formal structure so would you talk about also how you think of memory as history yeah I think in our culture of the United States is fact telling and facts can only be told from I mean are mostly told from the victors of those facts victors, colonizers, counters yes so even if something's mentioned it's mentioned as between this state and this state this happened and we don't embody that history with what actually happened what the the trauma the feelings the the identities of people the the spirit the loss of spirit the loss of culture the loss of the loss of identity so it's a practice generally history is a practice of assimilation yes it's like everybody is the same and these are the facts we share and memory is are all the different colors of that and that includes a lot of different things not just the things I listed so the story the process of things that happen I think is ultimately what's important and what's really missing and I was talking about Passover with Carlos the other day about how each year on Passover we have to talk about what happened thousands of years five thousands years ago to my people and it reminds me to really feel that understand that understand what happened understand where I even am today but we don't have a practice of that in our in our world so so nobody really feels that history what's called history in fact doesn't mean anything to anybody yeah it could be maybe a tool to mean something but it's not going to make people go out and feel each other or have a dialogue with each other and that's to me what's so odd about this conversation about critical, supposedly critical race theory is one of the arguments against it I'm sure you've all heard this well we don't want the white children in schools to feel bad learning about slavery or other issues about race and I'm like but that is what the, I mean you and I talked about it and you just iterated it again it is the trauma it is the pain it is the disappointment and the disillusionment it is the horror of Holocaust mindless horror of the middle passage it is the trail of tears that is history and for people to be able to talk about that is not only to embrace our history but also to be able to embrace our identity which you and I have talked about right which I also don't understand why that's a theory I mean it's actually an actuality that's why I said critical race history not critical race theory I don't get it either but we have a we don't really practice or work on memory like in school we're not talking from a memory perspective we could learn a bunch of things the facts, the dates, the times the presidents yeah do we have do people come and talk and share storytelling that is I think left out of yeah and not even do people come and talk do children themselves are they allowed to realize just like we said about recognize the moment that you are in children don't get a chance to recognize the moment that they're in I'm like if we can't talk about critical history if we can't talk about what's happened you know good, bad or indifferent in people's histories how do children in school identify the moment they're in how do they identify that we're in the middle of political crisis of democracy crisis that we're in the middle of and if you don't want to teach that to children at least be able to have them talk about and write their own stories about what's happening in their families perhaps because that is also history and that rarely happens not only I mean, I don't know well, that's a later question as Carriel said we're a comfort society and we like to sweep things under the rug yeah, absolutely I have more questions but I'd also like to ask if you have any questions of me oh, wow uh oh wait let me take some let me get some water okay here so you came upon this um frame which I put in a heart here it says responsibility colon memory, work, spirit, love oh I thought I said memory, work, spirit, history but all those things equal love in my yes, well I wrote love in my books now talk about hearing what she wants to hear she is hearing voices because I wrote down as we were talking and I wrote down memory, work, spirit, history okay, okay so she's hearing voices again this is my question though oh what did you mean um in framing that, like that yes, well it goes back to even what we were just talking about in terms of specifically African American, what I call black history because I believe that there's a community of black people worldwide for those people who don't know it black people don't just come from Africa, there are black people in many countries in India, in the Middle East, et cetera we don't see them on our television sets we don't see them in magazines and newspapers um but you know the earliest black people on the planet were the Dravidians which were the black people of India and still are the black and unfortunately in India they're called untouchables so but yes so I sang all that to say many years ago during my work at New Jersey Performing Arts Center I created an international festival called NJPAC World Festival and it was about doing the research, the work not just performance about cultures from around the world especially diasporic cultures whether it was Jewish diaspora and African diaspora Latinx diaspora and I named that second festival memory, work and spirit because I feel like for me just as you're saying the facts on the piece of paper it's not necessarily even the books in the library that capture the significance of our journey the trajectory of our journey whether that's like we said holocaust or a middle passage but it's really the memory, work and spirit that comes out of the work that we do, the lives that we live the even the trauma that we face, the pain that we face and so for me those three words capture it but then when you and I were talking about responsibility yesterday then I was like but history and now love is a key part of that but would you share with our audience what you were that conversation that we were having about responsibility and because that to me is so I'll lead into my next question for you, do you kind of recall what we were I think we were talking about personal responsibility that what is our personal responsibility maybe the starting point of of what our responsibility to the society is and that the interior work that you're doing on yourself and taking responsibility actually for actualizing yourself identifying yourself not allowing yourself to be erased is an important part of responsibility that we can then move outward with and I think this is important for me because I'm hearing a lot of people say even not watching the news this morning why isn't the government doing something why isn't the government doing something why isn't the government doing something well I have to say last year I was honored to be the recipient of the 2020 national freedom Harriet Tubman freedom award and one of the things I said to Stacy yesterday was she did not wait on you know Abraham Lincoln she did not wait on the emancipation proclamation she said no I am going to free myself and so you know I just of course we need to hold our governments and our elected officials responsible but it really disturbs me about just what you're saying that we often don't take responsibility for the things that we can do now we're going to get in trouble for this so let me think about how I should say this as a consultant I work with many clients and I shared this with you know I have a client that lives in a community I won't say where that's you know has surrounding it a park that has homeless people drug addicts etc and to talk about it for fear that people will then not be attracted to their arts organization and you know then the first thing that I said to them especially when they talked about the trash and the litter and said but why don't you organize a group to go and pick up the trash and the litter so you know they are indeed working on that but when I mentioned it to their board I'd have to say there's a good ending to this and that is one of the board members said that she took her two daughters young daughters like eight nine years old through the park and allowed them to ask questions and so they ask questions about homelessness why are these people sleeping in the park mommy or what are these needles on the ground mommy or why is there all this trash on the ground and she said the reason why I'm sending you to this organization to this school is because these folks did not have the opportunity to go to a kind of school that you're going to and they might not be sleeping on this park bench if they had the opportunity that you had talk about a lesson in cultural consciousness a lesson in humility a lesson in personal responsibility so the daughters themselves suggested that they, them and mommy go get some garbage bags and clean up the park themselves not call up city hall not call up the mayor but clean up the parks themselves I think the daughters are seven, eight, nine years old that's what I mean certainly by personal responsibility we wait on other folks and especially our government leaders to figure out what we can figure out on our own anything else do I get another question? yes so you've talked about action as something that can be silent yeah and I think you have a quote about that yes you know kind of along the same vein as taking personal responsibility is again this idea of listening to your own still small voice and what it's telling you to do and one of my favorite quotes in life that I've shared with Stacy is a quote from Malcolm X said and I'm paraphrasing so if you look it up and it's not exactly what I'm saying forgive me but it was something like if you were really a revolutionary you wouldn't be talking about it you would be off quietly planning I see you nodding your head you've heard this too you were really a revolutionary you wouldn't be talking about it you'd be off quietly planning somewhere and I think as much as I appreciate those of us who have indeed you know called ourselves revolutionaries or radicals and marched in streets or protested, prayed laid our, you know as one of those folks who laid my body on airways you know when we were protesting South African airways flying in and out of Houston, Texas at the time but that saying by Malcolm really struck me and so that's been a great deal of my work not the people not the rule haha but off quietly planning somewhere which I find to be both as you've said internal work and also I find that that internal work almost inevitably manifest in the outer world and so that's been gratifying for me and the work that I do and I think the same is true for you as well that that that seed that you called double edge 40 years ago then actually off quietly planning somewhere you know in the wilderness no less manifested into reality. Yes and it's complex I think this whole discussion because I don't think this is about not screaming and shouting about things when it's necessary or about making the government accountable or anything so I don't want that to be misunderstood absolutely but I think there is this grew out of our continual discussion about the propensity in our world for people to talk about things instead of act upon things yes so I that could be acting upon things with your voice or it could be acting upon things internally I mean as your own responsibility to yourself and your work your refuge but I think that I got the fly now yes okay fly I've got my getting ready to roll up here well oh go ahead so I think especially for women it's important to understand the difference between the work that we're doing which may be interior work yeah and it may be shared interior work with other people etc but we're talking about action rather than just saying you're doing something but you're really and I do want to be clear I'm not saying it's either or I'm saying it's both and that there are those who need to march and pray and like I said lay their bodies down on whatever they need to lay them down on but there's also a space for if you need if you're a person who works in this particular interior kind of way that let that be okay because one of the issues I have you know and I was one of those people I must confess that during the you know Malcolm X you know this has happened generation after generation among black people you know it was pitting Malcolm X against Martin Luther King Martin Luther King was the pacifist and supposedly Malcolm X was the revolutionary Malcolm was the real brother down brother and Martin Luther King was the assimilationist and the integrationist and you know and then before that it was even DuBose against Douglas Booker T and so I'm like people it's not either or it's both and whatever strategy the issue is strategy what strategy works for you is what you should be doing absolutely no question but it does lead to again actually my next thought for actually both of us when I was actually looking up radical it's an advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party a person who advocates thorough or complete political or social reform but going back to our conversation and some of the things we've already said I believe that radical and revolutionary is also intimate and a deeply personal experience and so one of the things that I'd like us both to talk about is I don't believe you just become radical because you join a political party or you're interested in a political issue I think we also become radical even sometimes from childhood and would you talk about any experiences in your childhood that radicalized or revolutionized you I believe that I became radical and finally said that just because I didn't even know that exactly what I marched out and was like I'm radical now in fact when I worked with before I went to Poland I started working with Maxine Klein no relation she was the director of little flags theater which was a political theater in Boston and she had been a Broadway director and then decided the world was needed to do something so she she was doing that and I couldn't I had to go do my own thing after three years of working with her even though I really admired what she was doing especially when we were working in the coal mine strikes in Kentucky that was really important for me but the whole communist ideology that was then really prevalent was I needed something more or less didactic but so that's what I thought was radical so I was like I must not be radical and it's actually other people who taught me that I was radical because everything that Double Edge did people would be like that's extreme your like the women's cycle was extreme because we were dealing with women not just women as women in all of women's greatness but women as in all of our complexity and that was really not allowed that was caused a lot of fights in the women's community and then it went on like that everything that Double Edge was doing even training was considered extreme why are you getting tired in training or why are you even doing physical work or why are you focused on visual visceral work aren't you go for it and that's why we do training so why everything let's put it down to one sentence to believe in your dreams and to fight for your dreams is extreme in our world so I learned that I was radical that wasn't something I called myself but lately I think maybe when Baraka and I started and Baraka insisted that we write our bios not facts but with memory yeah and and the word radical kept being in there when we cut everything else so I was like yes okay now I can claim that wow God I love her so I was radicalized at a very very early age I was born in Detroit but I and I was adopted by two black parents African American parents but they left Detroit even as I was an infant and moved to rural Michigan now I know people say all the rural Michigan I was like oh yes that we are not all car factories and car dealers and what was very odd and I still don't know why I wish I had asked my parents before they passed away what were they looking for because they moved to an all white community and when I say all white I mean all white there was now that I recall one other black family but they lived about 10-12 miles away so I was raised on a 28 acre farm and my revolution came when Dickie Palmer when I was 8-9 years old first called me a nigga and I did not know what that was so my brother and I were at the same elementary school again all white children and I told my brother and for whatever reason I figured out this was not a good thing to be called because my brother kicked Dickie Palmer's ass but that wasn't the end of it my mother and father got divorced we left a farm we moved even though we were closer in town it was still very rural as a matter of fact the name of our road was called farm road so that gives you an idea still all white community and my mother was actually threatened when she was getting ready to move and we actually had to have a white attorney purchase our home and two and a half acres of land and we got threatened by the neighborhood but I think because it was a black woman and children and no male no grown-up male at that time in the household so we were left alone until I was 18 at 18 Detroit had two riots for those of you do not know 1967 riots that we all hear about but also 1968 when Martin Luther King was killed we went through it again and on the night that Martin Luther King was murdered our white neighbors set fire to our home and poisoned our family dog I became radical and revolutionary for many years I literally hated white people I'm going to say that again she has heard this and she knows this I literally hated white people you cannot imagine the work that I've had to do on myself to overcome that hatred and it was intense and it was long I still have to even this past weekend dealing with the hotel where I'm staying whenever I feel like somebody is doing something that doesn't feel exactly right or they're treating me different than other people that instinct comes right back up is this because I'm black one of the things that Ebony knows is for many years I became officially revolutionary in at age 23 1973 I was at Eastern Michigan University I saw a sign on the school bulletin board that said come to a revolutionary black church service and that revolutionary black church service was who Shrines of the black Madonna founded in Detroit Michigan by Reverend Albert Clegg and he taught us everything I had never even until I was in college I had only read two books by black people so all through elementary school all through high school I had read two books by black no not even by black people they were about black people Booker T. Washington and who was the other one George Washington Carter those were the only two books in my elementary and high school library it was in college and so I went to this revolutionary black church service and it scared me because they were going to teach nothing is more sacred than the liberation of African people I sat there in the church service and they started inviting people to join and I sat there thinking what is my mother going to say if I join this church and the and the minister said don't sit there and think about what your mother is going to say if you and I said if that's not a sign if that's not hearing a voice I don't know what is and so I have been a member ever since Shrines of the black Madonna the Pan-African Orthodox Christian church and they taught me everything and I mean it was like the African mystery temples that no longer exist I learned everything from yoga to martial arts to military strategy to African history and everybody else's history I had to study religion I had to study politics I had to study sociology and psychology it was an education like no other education I have paid for so yes I became radical and revolutionary officially through the shrine of the black Madonna but it began as a child unfortunately or fortunately so we're getting close to that time and I actually want to go back to something that you said which was a perfect segue it's the last thing on my outline dreams and declarations of hidden territories and dimensions and that for you was the Bacchai and one of the things that you said or we said in the mission vision values case statement is Stacy Klein visualizes in dreams and dimensions of hidden territories so would you talk about how you've created your own worlds and you have made your dreams come true which is in my opinion the most revolutionary act that you can do yeah I mean I've got some a bunch of different segues so I'm going to try to put this together okay I think it's outrageous that you didn't read anything by black people in your first 20 some years and erasure is outrageous and that is your story what you described that's many stories as I found out from our partners that's our society I think talking about that before that's a lack of memory and work on memory and or even a lack of acknowledgement it's also a a false reality that's being created and that is connected to my present day outrage that to believe in your dreams is also erased denied in our world and that people say things like you're a dreamer or you're revolutionary or you're political you're just negative you talk too much about this but I've been thinking lately about this word reality because it I don't think I create my own world I think that I allow worlds that exist to surface and that is my artistic the center of my artistic being but it also has to do with other things because our partner Okiteo for instance is a reality it's not a world that we're creating it's not a world that they're creating it's a reality but that reality has been erased and instead we're told that such as a reality whatever that is is the news a reality well it's not my reality and it's not my people's reality all my people so this constant harping on you're not doing things that have reality over 40 years or since 66 years that's how old I am is it's a way to have to imprison everybody and make sure because once you start working on your culture your existence, your dreams your spirit and they surface stop that so as soon as you are dismissed and you keep being dismissed and you don't want to work on that anymore because everyone is against you about that that's a loss so we have to really help each other and work on each other's responsibility this reminds me of the conversation also that we had yesterday when we were talking about responsibility and again the work that you and others have done regarding Okiteo you know one of the things that really is irritating me and there's a lot of them these days is this in my humble opinion overused and now cliched in that social justice social justice and one more person says social justice to me I think I will scream because now it's just everybody does social justice how many times as I said I work as a consultant everybody's grand everybody's press release we are a social justice organization I say no you're not no you're not first of all social justice should not be a now and it should not be an adjective social justice should be a verb and the one thing I love about Stacy Klein and double edge theater is they do the damn work just like I say to them just do the work just do the work so I don't allow any of my clients I ask them to take social justice out of their vocabulary and I ask them to talk about what it is they actually do what it is to serve people whether it is to foster their dreams whether it is a revolutionary idea whether it's to take people out of their comfort zone whether it's to live their dreams all the things that we just talked about real social justice and even recently in a grand proposal that double edge wrote what was really inspiring for me is for them to talk about the work they actually do rather than slinging around some words that have become cliches and I really again can we applaud double edge as much as I appreciate even the statement that Carriel read in the beginning I'm also sick and tired of people reading land acknowledgement statements only because again it has become cliche what are you doing now unless you're Stacy Klein and working with Larry Spotted Crow and others who are building this community around Okitao, shut up and Rhonda Anderson who's right there Rhonda just shut up tell me what you're doing don't read a proclamation to me that I mean as much as I appreciate acknowledgement as much as I appreciate solidarity as much as I appreciate reinforcement of other people's struggles come on if it's only going to be some words on a piece of paper that's not it so Stacy has been kind enough this is where I may need your glasses thank you has been kind enough to say that I could actually read a poem if that's okay and actually I could see the did that say 15 or 5 oh, yay okay we're doing good she's said that I could read a poem and this is along the lines of what I shared with you about my childhood about growing up and how I became radicalized it's called colored country girl I was born in Detroit orphan adopted raised a colored country girl on a chicken farm among fields and forest Michigan is not all assembly plants and car dealerships it is apple orchards and cow pastures I am so sorry I have to start over are there any people here from Michigan oh, yay what is the one of the nicknames of Michigan there's several I know but I haven't been there in a long time oh, okay, alright so I'll just tell you who said that who said that the wolverine state now they call it all other kinds of things the great late state as you can imagine and all that but when I was growing up we were called and was on our license plates the wolverine state and University of Michigan football team basketball team are called what the wolverines so it's important for you to know that before and thank you for the glasses okay, yay I was born in Detroit orphan adopted raised a colored country girl on a chicken farm among fields and forests Michigan is not all assembly plants and car dealerships it is apple orchards and cow pastures hay rides and slaughterhouses log cabins and lone wolves the stink of skunks and the pierce of porcupine quills Michigan is survival pheasant and quail, rabbit and venison dandelion greens stewed tomatoes canned pickles and peach preserves hickory nuts and wild raspberries there was a time when I could out ride out hunt out shoot any man I knew but I have also been naive and afraid I will tell you this if you fuck with me I will surely turn on you like a Detroit alley girl or a cornered Wolverine that's my radicalization story okay what else you want to just riff? I think we can get to some questions I like that idea okay you want to collect or have we already collected? okay so let's take a few minutes to collect questions and thank you for well as long as it's had a connection I'm speaking in my question because I have a question and because it's for officers it actually has to do with the poem the ultimate version very very good but it's a poem by the woman in Canada and it says I stand on the sacrifice of a woman in the army what can I do to make the mountain taller so the woman after me is called legacy and both of you are sitting here as radical revolutionaries legacy makers what are you thinking of as you are as also two incredible mentors to many people what are you thinking of what would be the one gift that you would give to all women your first well two things one is the thing that Stacy said in the very beginning of what her mentor gave to her I'm done here you know go and do your work and you're going to make mistakes and you're going to fall flat on your face but the one thing I say is there's no such thing as failure there's only lessons learned and lessons learned lead to best practice there's no such thing as failure there's only lessons learned and lessons learned lead to best practice the second thing I would say is something Gloria Stein I heard Gloria Steinem say that was when someone asked her the same kind of question you know what legacy do you are you leaving and are you worried or concerned that young people young women these days don't know your name or don't know who you are and she wisely said I don't care if they don't know who I am I just want them to know who they are oh yeah I was like and that's the right answer Gloria yeah I want them to know who they are your turn I said that too oh okay I think I want to say something to the women that I'm mentoring which is make sure that your silence is something that you desire rather than something that has been thrust upon you and keep working on that for the rest of your life and then the other thing is something that's come up lately at Double Edge which is this idea when you find your people um make sure you work things out with them because that's not as easy as it sounds yeah yeah the only other thing I would add to that is you know this whole thing of mentoring um I want to be clear that mentoring is indeed a two way street I mean I've had an opportunity to work with Ebony I've had a chance to work with Cariel maybe there's others in the room I'm not sure but that I learned so much from you I learned so much from Cariel I know you don't always think that but that is absolutely true that just because you may be the elder doesn't necessarily mean that you're not simultaneously learning especially from the from the men women and men just lately when I say lately like in the past maybe four or five years um I've really been focusing on young black men because most of my career and life I've been mentoring women and a young man at a conference he said where are the people mentoring black men and he actually wanted a woman mentor not a male mentor he wanted a woman mentor and there's I thought it was incredibly powerful for a man to be able to say I need feminine wisdom as much as I need masculine wisdom so if you're a mentor or a teacher please make sure you are taking young men under your wing I have a lot of questions I just want to find it through that's right I'm going to start with how do we create memory visual you get to go first this time okay I like that I think that um we've talked about ritual hold on I'm sorry did everybody hear the question no some people didn't hear the question how do we create memory visual yeah I think we've talked about ritual as storytelling not necessarily word storytelling but visual or physical emotional storytelling rather than a script and I think that memory is the research that ritual which is the action memory is the research and ritual is the action I'd like to also respond to that and that is if you don't already I have a sense that in some cases they're kind of preaching to the choir here and that's a good thing because I always feel like if you are like me grew up in a church or a black church there are always the people that gets things done so I believe in preaching to the choir but I kind of think this might be preaching to the choir but we don't talk about it enough we need to have spiritual practice in our daily lives and part of my spiritual practice is daily in my prayers and meditation remembering my ancestors and speaking their names and so I'm just going to share with you my mother's name was Claudia May and my father who both his mother and father were ministers was named Sabbath Emmanuel I have never ever again heard a person who was named Sabbath but I talk to them every day and I say this I won't give you the hook because I have a 30 minute ritual but when I talk to my mother I say mother teach me to be kind compassionate thoughtful considerate humble unconceited caring patient kind loving forgiving in thought word and deed that's what I say to my mother every single day so make sure that memory and ritual is also part of your spiritual practice I think you can answer that read it again and a little louder what personal practices of care do you come to call on to hold close to yourself well as I said probably I have been doing meditation and prayer I can't even say how many decades now daily meditation and prayer for many decades and recently my sister in Houston asked me well the first question she asked me years ago and she said why do you do daily prayer and meditation and I said at that time because I want God to know my voice and I said part of the problem is we call on the angels the ancestors and orishas only when there's a storm coming when the wind is raging when the debt collectors at the door Lord help me now that's not the time to call because he's like where you you know like the old blue song look for you yesterday here you come today I want God to know my voice and let me tell you I am not saying this my mother as my witness to brag of both God has answered all of my prayers I cannot think of anything that I have not asked the angels the ancestors the orishas and they have not delivered I didn't even know I was looking for her and they sent her so that to me is really that is really important then recently my sister like okay you know I know you've been doing prayer meditation all these years but why do you still continue to do it and I said submission submission you know I don't want to get preachy here but I will say this right quick there's something to be said for not my will to be done thy will be done I actually created for myself as part of oh ebony knows this because she has received it I actually created a covenant for myself God and I have a covenant and part of that covenant is I will be whoever it is you want me to be I will do whatever it is you want me to do I will go wherever it is you want me to go I will serve whoever it is you want or need me to serve I only ask that you guide my foot steps on the path you want me to take now I'm not suggesting that you do that I'm suggesting that is what has worked for me but that is real in my life that I make a covenant and I submit to it on a daily basis okay does freedom need a plan and how long do you stick to the plan until you get it that's a good question that's a good question that's a good question I think everything needs a plan I don't think that we are random or we can accomplish in a random way things of value so I love planning and I have a handwritten calendar which is very full and I don't do the Google cow at double edge but I in a more serious way I think that to take action in our world is an act of well extreme revolution probably so that requires a plan otherwise you'll get killed or you will give up and hide so the plan though is not necessarily one kind of plan or another I think the plan needs to start with yourself what you're doing inside yourself and what you're doing with your people and if you're an artist how you're conceiving that art practicing that art or actually whoever you are starting with yourself and then and then you have to account for everything else it's it's dangerous it's dangerous if you if you go into a room alone well I can give you an example at double edge we don't allow somebody to fly by themselves by fly in the air here bungees whatever it is because it's dangerous because when you're taking a risk that's physically dangerous but if you're training emotionally dangerous so there needs to be partnership and a plan for how you're going to be safe and secure and have a refuge and if you're coming to this community there needs to be a plan because there might be danger in the community you might think it's a lovely beautiful community but there's still things that are happening so there's always got to be a plan and can I just add I'm very I don't know how many of you have seen this it's a publication Stacy and I wrote together it's double edges case statement and the mission vision values of it is actually in your programs but the only thing I want to add is if you're having a hard time figuring out a plan this is it, it's called who, what, when where, how and most important why when you're making your plan that Stacy talked about those are the questions that you need to ask yourself I mean I think Baraka said what I think justice is an action and it's an action it's a daily action it's not a like we're going to go do justice action and it's part of the plan I mean it's your every day really thinking about that's part of that's part of the dream you can't have dreams without having justice so I think justice is an action I mean like I said I think we've said it and I think what's really important and it's also as I said talked about in this document as well as even in your programs what I really liked when I first started working with Stephanie I mean with Stephanie with Stacy is she's over there she's the nice one is what double edge refers to art justice and what I really like that is it seemed very um organization specific you know it wasn't just like I said the cliched things that I was hearing from so many the adjective the noun rather than no we're not just doing social justice we're doing and what really resonated with me about that is I have been telling people you know this is another one of those cliches stop using equity diversity inclusion if I hear that again I think I'll scream no it's not equity diversity inclusion what I named those things was cultural democracy cultural equity cultural justice so when I heard her say art justice because really to be honest justice in art and culture is actually something different than social justice now that's another whole conversation that I'm not going to get into but justice in art and culture is actually different you are working on very different things so yes justice has to be specific and whether that's you call it art justice whether you call it personal justice whether you call it environmental justice justice applies should apply to a specific thing and a specific focus of work that you are doing so returning to the case statement Baraka you came in to try and I said the inter-mindful task of trying to encapsulate double edged in words and I'm wondering if you can both speak a little bit to the process of working on the case statement and how I'm sure it's still destroyed okay the joy was overwhelming um and then do you want to say something Baraka yelled at me a lot the joy was overwhelming and then it wasn't and then it was it was hard and not comfortable work because articulating in words something that actually I feel like I was at the point of giving up in terms of like I'm just going to speak like a grant um so at that point it was like you know whatever they want me to say yeah and it wasn't even right because I wasn't saying what they wanted me to say because I don't know what they want me to say I still don't um so I think um for me there was a hard lesson there which I won't give up about um actually articulating the truth um and I think this has to do with what I said about being silent um and not trusting that I could say the truth about what I was doing um and that people would accept that um at that time now um I learned um I'm not that's not really relevant to me anymore yeah but that was 35 years of thinking it was relevant that's a long time these 14 pages took a year for us to do 14 pages and it took us a year um it was conversations not only with Stacey but it was conversations with Cariel it was conversations with Carlos it was conversations with Jennifer it was conversations with Travis I mean conversations with everyone and sometimes you know Adam I don't think people realized what I was listening to and listening for but I'm always listening even though I talk a lot I'm always listening and what they didn't realize is that I wasn't really writing this they were writing this I was just listening and so it was then that I was able to capture the internal it was things that you know like as she said you know when radical kept coming up in the conversation I'm like well that's gotta be in here radical has to be in here but nobody ever says in a in a um in a uh grant proposal I'm a radical if any of you have ever read a what arts organizations that you know say we're radical and it's drives me absolutely crazy that these as much as I appreciate all the foundations that I've worked with all the foundations that have given me literally millions of dollars what I cannot tolerate what I will not tolerate is that we cannot we've all been saying tell the truth of our stories now do you really want to know who I am or do you just want me to do grant speak because that's what I call it grant speak and so then they wonder they sit there and wonder because I've now retired from grand panels and then they sit there and wonder why do all the grant applications sound the same they all say diversity equity inclusion they all say social justice they all say now but well no before that let me I'm not finished before that which I make every client take out of their vocabulary before that it was well we work with the underserved underprivileged we work with the non-white we work with the you know and it drove me crazy so I was actually on a panel and I said they had all the criteria by which they were judging these grant applications and this is how I came to the philosophy of who, what, when, where, how and why the funder was there the what do you call that when you redistribute money the the regranting organization was there and I said I'm not using your criteria or the foundation's criteria my criteria is who, what, when, where, how and why and every time I don't see it in the grant application I'm taking off 10 points because if you're so called if you are so called serving the underserved who is that that doesn't tell me anything are you working with youth are you working with and tell me who they are and some person said well at risk youth that's an identity I said no it isn't I said that's a condition and a condition is not an identity people yeah so let's start listening to the words we're using let's just stop applying the rhetoric and the grant speak that people hand to us and let's tell our truth who, what, when, where, how and especially why, why are you doing this work that's what I want to know if you're so called working with underserved because most of the time the why is I just want to get a grant and that's what you're funding right now you're funding underserved people so let me write a grant about underserved people no not acceptable so, sorry I kind of got I get off on my knees well that's what you did say to me and all those words are no longer yes but the difference is between you and so many other folks that I work with is you got it so then we started really talk about digging down into double edge reality and it, I mean that's where the real joy came from I was like look and a mighty people came up out of Ashfield and whoa okay sorry Kyrie so I'm going to ask one last question okay it better be good there are a lot of questions I just want to say I'm trying to keep them to questions that will affect both of you because I think that there will be time for me over to those specific questions even one of you but what do you want to bring into the future I'm going to thank the partners that I and double edge work with Rhonda is thank you for coming today Rhonda is the co-director of Okiteo cultural center which I've had the honor of working with in the last three years that's a big I feel like crying right now hold on a minute that's a big dream to go from something which I was told didn't exist to something which has moved all of Ashfield and way beyond that in its growth never seen something grow like that and and then I want to thank Ebony and our Jupiter performance studio another major partner of double edge and the work that we're doing together which we're starting one of our projects together today after this in its second year and but there's many projects that have come from our partnership and residency over the years and really helped greatly to transform double edge into the place that we want it to be in many ways also as a board member and and then there's two other partners who do residencies and one is fledgling partner but I'll say it anyway the Anishinaabe theater exchange and the theater offensive in Boston which is an LGBTQ people of color theater that does residencies here so this is what I'm dreaming into the future alongside of the work of the double edge ensemble which at this point I have the privilege of sharing leadership with the ensemble and also sharing directing responsibilities with the ensemble so this is a really beginning of my next part of my life which I'm very excited about and so those are the things that I am honored to dream into the future as well as the village that I'm trying to create in this town which is basically all of those partners and double edge and anybody else who needs refuge and safe places to create yes so I don't dream into the future a whole lot I usually dream in the here and now and along with what Stacy said I usually dream in gratitude I'm so appreciative of all of you who came all of you who have participated all of you who are engaged in this moment you know a lot of times when I'm sitting here I've been saying to myself even just listening to Stacy thank you God thank you when I tell often to people that I work with or mentor you've heard this you've heard this replace fear with gratitude replace fear with gratitude so most of the time I'm meditating to myself thank you God thank you so I'm very grateful for this moment and so I just want to one of the last in my last meeting with some of the members of the ensemble I my words of wisdom is practice radical love radical love you want to talk about what's really revolutionary and radical is love if you don't mind when you get home read the poem that Stacy and Cariella allowed me to share with you in the program radical love so I'm just going to say this is my dream it's called evolution when we are closest to death having failed to establish the real meaning of life when we must abandon the mystery of who we are will you remember sleeping inside the still black earth and the sun calling us to light a life not yet dreamed of perhaps you awakened as a salmon or flew up into the darkness like a moon some of us became lovers practice radical love that would be my dream