 So if all board members could turn on their videos, it's a 430 will get going here, I think. Alrighty, then. So I'd like to welcome everybody to the January 20th regular meeting of the design review board of the city of Santa Rosa. I just wanted to remind everybody why we're here in a public in sorry in a zoom call yet again, pursuant to government code section 54953 E, and the recommendation of the health officer the county of Sonoma designer will be participating in this meeting via zoom webinar members of the public may participate virtually at www.zoom.us slash join or by calling in toll free 1-877-853-5257. And the meeting ID for design view board is 81611761047 public access to the meeting is through the zoom platform and the public can provide comments. During public comment periods that are listed in the agenda. Additional information about the design review board and the meeting and participation is available at the city's website at srcity.org slash design review board. And the meeting will be live streamed on the city's website. Santa Rosa dash Santa dash Rosa dot legis star dot com slash calendar. And you can click on the in progress link to view. It's also viewed on the city's YouTube channel and Comcast channel 29. So without further ado, I'd like to turn it over to our lovely recording secretary for a roll call. I'd like to call the meeting to say that you're calling the meeting to order. Oh, I'd like to call the meeting to order. Thanks, Michelle. I appreciate that. I thought I did that. I apologize. Thank you so much. All right, with the record reflect that all board members are present with the exception of board member birch, board member Sharon, and vice chair. Thanks so much recording secretary. We have 13 minutes to approve it looks like this evening so we'll just keep moving down the agenda. Item three public comment this is the time when any person may address the designer be bored on matters not listed on the agenda but are within the purview and subject matter of the designer be bored. I'm going to turn it over to public comment now and I'm going to turn it back over to the recording secretary to see if anybody has raised their hand in the zoom platform for public comments. Thank you so much. And I am not seeing any hands at this time. All right, so we will close public comment and we'll go to a board business. I apologize as I've been talking on the phone a lot for work I think and I'm struggling here. One second. Sorry. Okay, sorry I had to pull something up on my iPad here. So this is where we read the statement of purpose which is for the design review board zoning code chapter 20 dash 52 dot 030 f project review. The new authority shall consider the location design site plan configuration and the overall effect of the proposed project upon surrounding properties and the city in general review shall be conducted by comparing the proposed project to the general plan, any specific plan applicable zoning code standards and requirements, consistency of the project within the city's design guidelines, architectural criteria criteria for special areas and other applicable city requirements, e.g. city policy statements and development plans. And then I would like to, we have board member reports and actually, I have one, we have a brand new board member that I'd like to welcome to the board as everyone knows Henry. Wix had his last board meeting a couple of weeks ago and his replacement is a board member, I think, Mark, Mark step I get that right. And so Mark, if you could just introduce yourself to everybody. Hello everyone, it's it's great to be here. And I'm great. I'm grateful to a council member john Sawyer for the chance to participate. And for me, I'm I am director of development at Sonoma State. I am transferring over from the major committee. And again, I'm just glad to be here and be part of these conversations. Thank you very much. Thanks Mark and we're happy to have you and again, we want to thank Henry for his couple of years of service to the board, and we're excited about your hopefully couple of years of service to the board. So other item 4.3 there's no other other than new member introductions is that the board member will see a board member to you do you guys have any board business tonight. And then to report on my part. Cool, thanks john. So at this time I'll turn it over to board liaison senior planner Amy Nicholson for department report. Thank you chair Weigel and members of the board. I just wanted to welcome board member stop. We're very happy to have you join the board. And I have no department reports today. Thank you. Thanks Amy appreciate you. So item number six is statements of abstention, and I believe there is one for one of the items tonight. So, so it turns out the very first item that potentially be reviewing I need to abstain from. I am having some conversations went to professional opportunities with with the organization chain and companions so you do abstain from that item. Cool. Thank you board members that for telling us that you have to abstain from the very first item as a board member keeps it interesting always right. So we'll we have no consent items this evening item seven and so item eight would be the scheduled items. And so we'll move to item 8.1 which would be a public hearing for canine companions early development center, conditional use permit 2965 dot item 8.1 to a date certain so that we can have the quorum for that. And so we will be continuing that to a date certain of February 3, I believe is that correct Amy? Yes, that is correct. Excellent. And so I think that's the only action required on that is to continue it to a date certain correct. Yes. All right, so that being said, we will move on from item 8.1, and we will move to item 8.2, which is a concept design review for the Pullman phase two. Oh, okay. Oh, because you're presenting it Andrew, there you go. I said a comment. All right, so item 8.2 concept designer view Pullman phase two building see design review 701 Wilson street dr 21 dash 070. At which point I will turn it over to the project planner Andrew triple for a staff presentation. Thank you chair waggle good afternoon and good afternoon. Number stuff that design review board happy new year. I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. And if you could just let me know if you can see the opening slide, which is Pullman phase two building see. Excellent. Thank you. So this review is a concept design review of the proposed Pullman phase two building see a pre application required activity. The project is located at 701 Wilson street. Here we've got our slide with how the project contributes to the Rena allocation requirements from 2015 through 2023. The project would contribute a total of 40 units, which would be market rate units. However, two of the units would be reserved for a very low to low income households. And that two unit reservation does meet the requirements of the inclusionary housing ordinance. So therefore the project would comply with the inclusionary housing ordinance subject of course to an affordability agreement with the city of Santa Rosa. And here's the project location. We've been on the design review board for several years you may recall prior review of the Pullman loss project which is buildings a and B on this rather long parcel located at 701 Wilson it stands from 8th street on the south side to 9th street on the north side, which is founded by the smart rail on the west side. The site is currently being developed and you'll see some some slides from the applicant's presentation with the original project buildings a and B. And then building C would be located here at the southern portion of the site, where you can see an existing building. And this two proposes a five story 40 unit market rate multifamily residential building with 5% of the units reserved for affordable households. The amenities for building C, including a dog run dog wash station pool area Jim bike storage office conference room and community lounge. I would be shared from Pullman phase one which be located immediately adjacent to it, and is currently under construction. An existing structure located on the site of the proposed building C is subject to a notice in order to demolish due to dangerous conditions that was issued by the chief building official on December 21 of 2021. And so the project is located within the downtown station area priority development area, and the site is owned and you which is neighborhood mixed years. The site zoning and the corresponding neighborhood mixed use general plan land use designation, our new land use designations and zoning district resulting from the adoption of the downtown station area specific plan, which was adopted in the fall of 2020 and then codified through amendments to the design guidelines and to the zoning code in 2021. The project's proposed multifamily residential land uses a permitted use in the neighborhood mixed use zoning district and in accordance with the resilience city measures modifications to the design review process. The design review approval for the new residential development is delegated to the zoning administrator through the minor design review process. However, as part of that delegation then a neighborhood meeting is required and concept design review a pre application is required as well. As you all know, then your comments from today's concept design review will be forwarded on to the zoning administrator and will be reviewed for compliance and responsiveness as part of the minor design review entitlement. The project is located on the east side of the West End preservation district on the far side of the smart train railway. However, it's not within the preservation district and therefore cultural heritage board review is not required for this project. Additionally, the project would seek a modification of development standards to reduce a required corner side yard setback in exchange for providing onsite inclusionary units. This is allowed by the inclusionary housing ordinance. The director is able to approve modifications of development standards that incentives for for development of residential projects. In the NMU zoning district, the building form is regulated through FAR, which also then establishes the maximum density indirectly I should say. The maximum FAR for this site is 4.0 and the proposed residential development currently has an FAR of 3.23. So it does exceed that midpoint development requirements of 2.0 for FAR coming in at 3.23. The project would propose a zero foot setback at the building frontage along 8th Street, which is a permitted setback does comply with required setbacks and a four foot six inch setback along Wilson Street, where a minimum required setback is five feet. And it's this this proposed setback along Wilson Street that would require a modification of development standards. The applicant will be going into the site plan the layout and show those setbacks in greater detail. I did just want to let you know that there is a pathway to allow those setbacks. So the other pre application activity that's required was the neighborhood meeting that was held on January 12, 2022 was attended by approximately 20 participants. And in addition to comments provided at the neighborhood meeting staff received about five public comments in response to noticing for the neighborhood meeting. Those comments are provided to you in I believe it's attachment six of the meeting item as a summary of neighborhood meeting comments. And in general, those comments were really about land use and density about parking and about the project design. With regard to land use and density there's overwhelming support for the multifamily land use, as well as for the proposed density of the project at 40 units. The participant at the neighborhood meeting just did ask why the project didn't propose additional density, and the applicant explained that there was a function of the pro forma, the cost of construction to go higher, which would be allowed under FAR but then then of course revenue versus cost as long term characteristics of the project. So there's a fair number of concerns expressed about the limited amount of parking. The project does propose five parking spaces for this 40 unit development. At present, the minimum parking requirement for downtown projects is no parking required. It does fully comply with the with the minimum parking requirement and that it does does propose some parking. However, residents were concerned about parking demand associated with the projects 40 units and where those people might park. Would they be parking on public streets and how might that impact other residents in the neighborhood who are also using on street parking. I think that's all I'll say about that concern because I do feel that the applicant does a thorough analysis of parking demand in their presentation and he'll be sharing that with you shortly. And then finally with regard to project design. Again, general support for the design of the project. There was a comment that one of the applicants asked if the project could green it up a bit. Through more landscaping the project does not currently propose a rooftop garden area, but it was suggested that perhaps they could have that just add more green to the project overall. And then finally another comment was related to public art. While this is a residential project and therefore public art contribution is not required. The participants of the main neighborhood meeting did encourage the applicant to consider some sort of public art to draw attention to the project. And then I think also to celebrate the sense of community that shared and inspired by the West End and its residents. Sorry. And so with that I'd like to conclude my remarks for this evening's concept review again my name is Andrew triple. Here's my contact information you can reach me by email at a TRI PPL at srcity.org. My phone is 707-543-3223. And I'm happy to answer any questions also the the applicant team, including the design team and civil engineer are available for presentation comments and questions as well. Thanks Andrew for your presentation. So, typically with concept design review just so, so Mark knows, because he's new and just for everybody else. So typically for concept we do the applicant, the staff presentation and the applicant presentation. And then we ask for a public comment from the members of the public that are attending the meeting. And it's a courtesy that we extend to the public although not required as this isn't an official public hearing. But we do like to hear from the public so that is why we extend that during concept review. And people will get three minutes to speak once we get to that point. And then also, after that's complete then we'll do questions from the board of the staff of staff and applicant and I think generally on concept items and specifically. The questions tend to be a little bit better after we've heard from the public because it tends to, you know, fire some neurons in our brains while we're looking at the project and whatnot and listening to the presentation. So, I just wanted to run through that real quick for Mark, and also the members of the public that are here. And also, it looks like Michelle there's a hand raised but I want to make sure that that's a maybe a member of the design team. And so Andrew it looks like that person's name is Adrian covert. Are they a member of the design team. No, they that is a member of the public who I have corresponded with the email. Okay, so Adrian covert if you could please lower your hand right now, we're going to go to the applicant presentation and then we'll open up public comment there and you can feel free to raise your hand and the recording secretary will recognize you at that time. So, it looks like we've got applicant Butler and applicant Bergamon and so we will turn it over. And maybe applicant flood couple of applicants are showing up there it looks like so we're just going to turn it over to them and Andrew I think you probably have to share your screen with their presentation and we'll go from there. Yeah, good afternoon. Good evening. Design review board. My name is Lauren Brigham and I'm the president and owner of Phoenix Development Company of Minneapolis LLC. The developer of the phase buildings a and B Pullman lots. We Phoenix in in conjunction with its partner partner nonprofit partner integrity housing just completed and occupied gotten flats on third and done. And previously we built Ortiz Plaza developed and still own Ortiz Plaza, which is the farm worker housing unit project over on Old Redwood highway. Yeah. So, this project, as you can see, you can see, building B to the right of the proposed building C building B is coming out of the ground quickly building a we're about to begin sheet rock. So that that proper project is moving along quickly on the call with me today I have Ken Nakagaki, who is with the KV project for this project. Ron Butler also from BKB I believe Ron is actually speaking Ron is the designer on this project. Justin Heacock who is our landscape designer is on the call and along Holly flood who is our project manager for Pullman lofts is on this call and at the same time we have Ron sanzo who is our civil engineer for building C. So, as we move along and as questions arrive from you all the board and from the public. We can respond. I'll just kind of run through this presentation quickly so I don't drag this all out I'll probably let Ron Butler talk about the aesthetics, and I will talk about the idea of the design. Next slide. The Phoenix development has been around we since 1997. We have the principles have over 40 years of experience in straight multi family rental housing that's all we do. We are very good with multi source financing and resources. That's how we're able to build this and how we're able to get that and flats constructed. We've developed over 2500 rental units we work from Mississippi to the West Coast. We currently own and manage 750 units and have another 74 under construction. We work as much as possible in urban renewal areas. We love that type of work. Next slide. Here's our team architect is BKB group I'm tripping on my tongue BKB and Phoenix have done many multi family projects together. We speak the same language and we have a just a great working relationship. The H landscape architects is providing did the did the landscape on that and flats and they are doing the landscape for our stony point flats, soon to go on the ground. Innovative structural engineering is the structural engineer on buildings a and B is currently under construction and sand is our civil engineer is our first time working with him but sand is has an amazing reputation and we're really pleased with the work so far. Next slide. The, this building we're proposing is five stories 40 dwelling units, they are smaller in size because we're going after what we call the missing middle. The marble projects such as our Dutton flats are 60% and less of a MI what happens is you'll find that most service workers earn too much money to rent an apartment at Dutton flats. So here these units are designed to hit that missing middle. They are going to share the amenities with a and B. They are being immediately adjacent, and that's where most of the community functions are the completion for this is spring at 2023, the completions for a and B are late June early July of this year. Next slide. There's our lovely building on the corner. We're under order to be demolished. The October 24th rainstorm probably was the last blow for that fire affected wall on the north end of the building. We saw cracking enormous cracking after water penetrated that wall we had our structural engineer come and review it. He came back with his recommendations and finally we have shored the wall up so that the tenant who is in occupying the building can safely remove their equipment and move out. Next slide. Here is the ground floor you can see the five parking spaces, they're covered. And there are four at grade units, which will have at grade patios. There is a lobby off a street the the address for this particular building will be an a street address. Next slide. Here are the units. This is the interesting part of this you can see the four units on the which will be the east side which face Wilson Street. You can see that they all have an office. So there are 20 units that are one bedroom plus office. And that has a lot to do with what's happening in the marketplace not only. Nationally, but we're starting to see quite a bit right here in Santa Rosa, as people have become working virtually as working working virtually has become the situation, especially among millennials. So, that was our design idea there. Next slide. There here. This was the missing drawing on the neighborhood meeting but you can see we have we're landscaping every possible inch that we can. The west side of this property is a continuation of the fire truck EVA from building a and B. So that's basically puts that into a paved situation. So, welcome to urbanism we are. We are green as we can possibly get. Next slide. This is a great artist rendering of the buildings a and B that are currently under construction and the view of building see as it, which you can see the colors are complimentary, and we're using building see as kind of the cornerstone to really set off this new development. Next slide. This is a street view. This is looking at the west side of the proposed building and the west side of the buildings under construction. And you can see that we are Jason to the bike path and the light rail. Next slide. This is looking from the east side of the building and you can see the historic old town furniture warehouse across the street. Next slide. I'm going to turn over to run Butler now and I'm going to let him walk you through his, his design ideas. Go ahead run. Okay, sure. Can, can you hear me okay. Okay, you can. Yeah, thanks. Okay good. I was worried. Last time I had a little technical difficulty so I gotta like remember to hit my unmute button and all that good stuff too so you're all there. That's, that's a common occurrence. So, yeah. So design aesthetic on this was a blend here. You know why it's a very tight site where point to acres on it so you know really we're in the neighborhood makes use district. It made a lot of sense to really, you know address and celebrate the urbanism of the site. So, you know, from a exterior standpoint we wanted to create a harmonious palette of materials that complimented the Pullman flats are the first phase the buildings a and b with with bringing in some of their color and a little bit of motif on their design they have some sloped roof so we sloped a roof here as well on the corner, which, you know ties in nicely with the activating that corner and calling attention to what's a pretty prominent corner. We're at Wilson and 8th Street. So, you know, some material selections here. We have a at the base of the building we're going to have lap fiber board on the on the brown area there at the base. And then that also has some accents of ribbed metal panels, and then moving up from there at the above the ground level, which creates a nicer richer texture to it at the base and creates a nice public pedestrian zone there at the base. There's also some balconies and patios. As you saw in the landscape plan, there was a series of patios and landscape patios along the east elevation here facing Wilson Street, which again you know is intended to really, you know, be a pedestrian friendly experience as you're walking by the building. Moving up though, we move into what is a stucco material above there into a series of of colors that we wanted to be a little bit playful with the building here and pick up, you know, that around the area in the context here there's a lot of movement there's a lot of traffic with with the smart rail with all the connectivity. So, you know, I think some of that movement shows in the building with a little bit of shifting pattern nothing to, you know, out of the or over the top but just kind of a subtle element to kind of keep the eye moving. At the same time we wanted a little bit formal palette as well. So, you know, as far as the blocking of the building. It is an urban block form which I think kind of lends itself from the local context of of the industrial kind of neighborhood that it sets in the previous building kind of hug that Wilson and eight streets so we're keeping in line with that. The building does, you know, moving up it has a series of stucco and then a metal panel at the corner as well. That also kind of relates to the material coming down tying down at Wilson and an eight street at the top of the building as I mentioned kind of create a unique corner condition. So we're at the Wilson and eight. You know, we did try and break up the massing here as well and the Wilson street side by having a series of balconies, which they're hung balconies very nice metal with metal mesh railing very like nicely detailed balconies that are hung. Those helped also from a street level for break up some of the facade and create both vertical and some horizontal shifts in the plane as well. Again, you know, we are a very tight site. There is a small kind of undulation on the on this facade and this elevation with those balconies. We couldn't do too much more just it was eating into the balcony into the units too much that it would be impactful, but but we are trying to be mindful of it, kind of moving around the north elevation. We carry the design elements around all four sides of the building but the north elevation ties in nicely and looks back to the first phase and be buildings. So this is going to have great connectivity to those internal to the to the development. Maybe moving around next slide. Yes. I'm kind of moving around to go to the right side here around the west elevation this is facing the smart line. Again, you know this at the base of the building you'll notice there's a couple pockets there those are garage that's where the five garage spaces are going to be located at those garage spaces there is a an accessible space and a electric charging vehicle space as well. So the service on the left hand side open to some of the mel room and entryway along the right hand side. Again, you can see the shifting of planes here. You know, it's just to kind of pick up a little bit of movement that I think is kind of inherent of the district. It's kind of harmonious pallet something kind of clean simple organized yet not too static and on the south elevation along 8th Street. Here we have great connectivity of the entryway at the lower left hand corner which as you enter into the space there's a small lobby space in a mel room. That's there to the window to the left of that. This location made a lot of sense to come in from eighth it's our frontage road. The, it also has great connectivity with the smart line so I think you know as Lauren and mentioned probably you know a number of tenants will be we kind of feel like there's going to be a lot of connectivity and use from the smart rel you know whether it be for transit or just for pleasure you know I think that it's a great trial system that connects the local community so it gets a great amenity to the to the tenants of the building honestly. So as I briefly explained there we have kind of a mixture here on the on the board you'll actually notice that we've got a EFAS called out we we originally were looking at using EFAS, but ran into a little bit of push back and and some problems with it. We've changed that over to stucco system so a little bit more straightforward on that. So yeah, a series of different color variations in the stucco colors one through four. And then item number five is that lap siding lap fiber cementitious board siding that's there at the base of the building and a mixture of that with the metal or a metal panel, which is on the Wilson side there at the units and seven is a metal panel that you see there at the corner of Wilson and eight street at the ground level. And again that was really to enhance the the material palette at the base at the at the ground level where really the experience of the building is felt by the community as they're passing by series or series of balcony windows, vinyl windows. And then 10 is our our metal railing system which is that the graphics there is is not as is not as good as what's shown on the rendering that's there in the building that the balconies will actually look with like what's on on the rendering image there to the right and 11 is some metal trim and and some metal canopies that will wrap around the building various locations. You want me to pick up here run. Sure go for it. Yeah, so the unit mix you can see, you can see that we have 20 smaller units ranging. They're all one bed one bath. They have 20 units that have one bath plus an office. And the idea being that the rents that one, since this is a market rate project the rents that we develop we obviously have to be able to absorb the cost of new construction which is a lot. And so what we are able to do by with smaller units is to create rents. That'll be attractive to that middle market that I was referring to earlier next slide. You can see these are enlargements of the units. To a the bedroom is to the left, it is not to the right. Okay, next. Again, more of the units. There's quite a variety of different unit sizes and mix next. And I think this is it. So we can then address questions on that later on, the units are going to be high level finishes. They're the finishes are going to be similar to the units we're in and be the difference basically is in size. Next slide. And here, just so people understand what we're trying to do with the middle income market. You can see that on this chart that a single person to rent from say us at that and flats. So they, well, a single person isn't so difficult that's at 43, 380 but a two person, which is most of our occupants are two person households that threshold at 49, 560. Service workers bartenders, etc. They just there. They're they earn too much money, so they can't be in this so we had to create an opportunity for these millennials to rent units and to still be able to afford it as a, as a reasonable percentage of their take home income. Next slide. Here. We demonstrated basically the salaries for both a server average salary for a server average salary for bartender. And you can see that even even a single bartender earns more money than would allow him to rent or a server earns more money with chips than would allow them to rent from us saying an affordable housing project. Next slide. This just kind of demonstrates that millennials aren't saving much money because there's overspending on on their housing cost. Next slide. And so I think this is just showing a percentage of rent paid over an eight year period. Millennials versus baby boomers versus gen X and you can see that even though they're earning more money, their cost of housing has as a percentage of their take home has grown significantly next. Yeah. And Phoenix. Michelle and I, we go looking for urban development. That's what my wife and I have done for our career. We like urban we like walk scores of 90. We like bike scores of 81 we like to know that there's transit immediately available. And so that's how we picked this site. Next slide. This is just kind of a slide this is probably more for marketing than it is for you but you can see that within walking distance is our demographics. You know, this I think I've said this to the DRB before but our tenants have a tendency to keep a six pack of high end beer a bottle of saw a block and a, and a quarter of cheese and that's what's in the refrigerator. They millennials, they put put their money into experiences they don't put their money into stuff. Next slide. Again, there's even more you know I'm half a mile away you cross under a 101 and again just way more way more of the things that are demographic like next slide. This is to show that we do have really good transit we have the smart line we have the city bus. We have the bike trail over is there. Some of these things Holly knows I don't know what they mean, but she knows what those rideshare. We are looking. One of the things that will probably try to do is we're going to look into a zip car type situation for the project, and that is another thing that we're hoping to incorporate. Next slide. This is how connected we are with transportation. How well located this is the interesting thing here because I know people push back on parking and that. You'll see later on in slides but there's numerous studies that show that for to D sites to be successful. You can't overpark them, because the more parking you may available the less usage of all these transit investments that the communities are making. Don't get the ridership. So, you know you restrict parking and restrict availability of vehicle usage you're going to build up your usage of these better urban transportation systems. And another fact is the price of cars have skyrocketed so as I said earlier millennials put their money into experiences and not into acquisitions. So as the price of a car becomes more and more difficult to be offset with what your take home income is the more public transit will become a better option. Next slide. Again, this kind of shows connectivity. One thing I think that's interesting about this slide that Holly put in is that we know just from interest that's being shown that we are going to get people that actually work and live in San Francisco will like to be up in the bay for the weekend could become, you know they would it be permanent renters at Coleman. But they're just going to take the light rail and go up there and spend their weekend, you know, restock their wine and then ride their bicycle and then on Sunday night go home for the work week. We'll also probably since there is quite a few of San Franciscans now working virtually I believe that I read the other day that they don't believe more than 85% of the office workforce will go back to working in an office. So 15% of that workforce is going to be working virtually and I think we've seen a lot of that coming to the North Bay. Next slide. This just kind of gives the bus schedules. Next slide. All right. Yeah, this this was an interesting study that we've been tracking but the price of a used car has jumped 40%. So when you think about the cost of owning a vehicle. And I think there's more information on the next slide. Is that correct. Well, now this is parking as me. This is a major cause bourbon sprawl. I was looking for some numbers I guess I don't have those here. But you can as you can see home prices have skyrocketed new car prices have gone up quite a bit but use car prices have gone over the top. Next slide. This is a study that shows that projects with more on site parking induce more auto ownership builders buildings with at least one parking space for you to have more than twice the car ownership rate of buildings that have no parking. So, Santa Rosa, the council is trying to move in this direction and we give them accolades. Next slide. This, we are at the average we're getting, you know, studies are we're showing and our own experiences we get about 0.75 vehicles per unit in an urban setting. We are setting aside right now 0.74 vehicles per unit. We have included in those 84 spaces we have five motorcycle spaces which are getting to be extremely popular. Next slide. And this is our basis for our resources. Next slide. And that's it. Thank you. Go ahead and ask questions and comments. We're all ears. I'm going to turn it over to a public comment now. And we'll have members of the public be recognized by the recording secretary. I'm just going to turn it over to Michelle to handle that and we'll do three minutes per person. And so please raise your hand. If you would like to speak about this project and don't hesitate to raise your hand if somebody else has raised their hand if that makes sense, because the zoom platform will track who raised it in what order. So, I'm going to turn it over to the recording secretary now for public comment. Great. Great. Thank you so much. First off, we have Adrian. Adrian, if you could please start by stating your name for the record. Hi everyone, my name is Adrian Covert. Thank you for providing this opportunity to make some comments on this project. I'm a homeowner. My house is about 200 feet from this project. My house is actually depicted in that aerial photo at the start of the staff report. I talk by this parcel every day with my toddler, and I could not be more excited about it. I think this is a huge improvement over the current use, obviously, I think our local small businesses need this project, both for the customers that it would bring and for the workforce housing that it would bring. And I think what's really appealing to me about this project is the maximization of the space for actual housing units with only a small number of parking spaces. I really appreciate how the developers put this together. This is a very walkable area to stones throw from downtown and the smart train. You can bike around it great. And currently, about 25% of the entire service area of railroad square and courthouse square is already covered in parking lots garages or curb parking. This city's 2019 Walker consulting report shows that the downtown specific area has an enormous surplus of parking that isn't being used. So, I just think the last thing that we need in the west end railroad square is more space for parking that comes at the end of the road. So I think this is a huge improvement over the current use of new homes and services, which is not what we see here, which is why I like it so much. So, thank you for taking my comment and just great job on the developers for putting together a really good project. Thanks. Thank you so much for doing. We appreciate your comments. And I am not seeing any other hands. It's this time, I did want to remind our all in participants, if you would like to submit for public comment you can press star nine to raise your hand. Cool. Thanks Michelle, I'm not seeing any additional hands being raised. So we'll just let it go here for another little bit, just to see. Just because you know technical difficulties. It looks like to me that we maybe don't have any more public comment. So, we'll go ahead and close public comment and bring it back to the board. And so, we're going to. Let's just do questions of both applicant and staff right now. And then we'll circle back for comments. Does that sound good to everybody. Just so we can kind of try to isolate it. The two. Because I know I have a couple of comments that may impact my quick mic or a couple of questions that may impact my comments. So, Sheila, do you want to go ahead and go first with the questions of applicant and staff. If I don't have any questions I thought it was very thorough staff and applicant presentation so I will reserve my comments. All right john do you have any questions of staff and or the applicant. I have the applicant to to speak to us about their palate selections, particularly with the with the stucco. The, the, I realize that that this is a conceptual thing, and that we are looking at a pal. I'm going to particularly talk to me about, about why you chose stucco I think stucco in some ways is kind of boring I'd like to see maybe a different kind of facade, maybe doesn't pencil out right I don't know. But, and the color palette just seems to me to be a little bit boring it just isn't as as vibrant as projects one and two. Just like to hear some some comments from the applicant around that. Also, one other thing. One of the things you talked about was vinyl doors and vinyl windows. And my understanding is vinyl doesn't really hold up really well so we're building this and you're going to get it built in 2023 but what where those windows going to look like 2030 or 2040. And it's got a little age on it, and I'd like you to speak to those two, if you would please, as a Lauren and your team does that make sense what john's asking, because I might be able to clarify it if I'm hearing him right if I if I need to regurgitate. I want them to tell me I don't want you to tell me true. No, no, no, I meant make make you just help with your questions be a little more complex because I because I think I heard two questions. One question was, you want to know about the durability of the windows, long term, right, yeah, because, as we know vinyl is not the creme de la creme of window materials, right. Right. So that's I think question one question to is just a little bit more explanation for the color palette but also the materiality selection of the stucco in particular. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. So, Lauren and, and maybe the architects address those. Sorry, I was muted. I think it was an auto mute. I think it was automatic. Yeah, Lauren, go ahead. Yeah, I'm going to let you address the colors I'm going to address the vinyl windows, etc. The reality. I mean, the cost of construction has skyrocketed lumber went from $400 per thousand board feet to last fall $1700 per thousand board feet. It did roll back and it leveled off at $900 per thousand board feet. It is becoming more and more difficult to build these things and be able to lease them at a rate that people can afford. You know, I, if I could go and do Pella windows through a project. Yes, boy would I love to do that. Can I do that and build this thing. No, you know, and vinyl windows, they've got a good track record, you know, I have them in my in my wife's of my home we have I have no issues with vinyl windows we've been using them for the last 20 years in our multifamily rentals, you know, I have not had to replace them. Not, I mean, it product wise, it's a good product. So, I think there's reliability and I, and again, we have to start thinking about what can we really afford to build, because the cost of construction is. Way out of control. So, Ron, I'll let you address the colors. Okay. All right, so as far as the colors go we wanted to have this be a little bit different from the A and B buildings because it is a different building. We were appealing to the millennials to people that are, you know, we're going to be renting a little bit smaller unit. We felt the color palette, you know, address that and, while at the same time, still taking some of those colors and largely using the, in many cases the color palette is the same color as on A and B. It's just not as dominant. It's not the, we chose the softer color of the lighter color to be a little bit more dominant. That's just kind of what we're seeing trend right now. As far as, you know, a little bit younger, fresher take on on a material palette. But again, you know, tying in back with the Pullman A and B buildings with that with that flash of color. So, that was really the decision there. John, does that answer your two questions? It does. Thank you. Okay, cool. So I guess a board member staff mark your next questions of the applicant and staff. Oh, just one question for me. What an exciting project, the beautiful project. Well done. Along Wilson Street, I noticed that first floor has a lot of glass, and it's pretty open. And from a privacy and security, what's the thinking in terms of privacy and security along that, along that first floor Wilson Street side. I can answer that so the the, you know, we, we did want to have a little bit more glass there it is a unit that we feel is going to be a popular unit it's got a patio space that's tied to it. So, along with the patio, you're going to have, you know, the larger opening there for that patio door and side light for that. And, you know, they are private patios, and then we felt like the windows next next to them, they still deserve to have, you know, some some nicer views out felt like the landscaping that we're going to be providing would provide some screening in there as well. So it's really good to make those units feel inferior in any way to some of the units at the higher level. Understood. Thank you. Okay, I guess that's all your questions mark yes. Okay, so I've got a number of questions. On the, I guess it's the one of the aerial views. You can kind of see some fencing around the, the, I guess it would be the west side against the railroad tracks. And I guess that's around the parking kind of the parking area and I'm curious what kind of fencing that is. I mean, this is an automatic gate. I mean it looks like it's low fencing so I'm not not really maybe it's chain link I mean I don't, I don't know. So I'd like some clarification on that. That's one several. Yes, it's a, it's a gate. It's a metal fence gate that will be metal fence that wraps around that side, you know, just making a private community and then secure community and the gate as well across the drive. It's really a continuation of the fencing on building a and B. So the whole back area is fenced in. And as, as Ron said to create a sense of security. Yeah, and pardon me, Lauren, but it's been a while since we reviewed the other parts of Pullman. What kind, what kind of fence is that is it a chain link fence. Is it wrought iron is it, you know, it's not clear. If we had a lot more money, it could be wrought iron, but it's black chain link fence. I actually that quite a bit of it is installed already along the west side of a and B. Well, thanks. Black chain link. Let me just write that down. What final. All right. On the west elevation, Andrew, if you could bring up the, the applicant presentation and find a west elevation for me. I've got a question there. While he's doing that. I think is this the one that you were looking for. Yeah, so yeah, everybody can see that kind of like, it looks like it's low like 36 ish, or maybe 42 inches. So that's a black vinyl chain, like I guess is what they're saying. So it's just it's not, you know, and normally we would if this was a, I guess why I'm bringing it up is if this was not a concept item and we were seeing it as an actionable element, it would be required to have the detailing of all that fencing. And so I want clarification, not only for us as the board but also for staff, when they see this on the back end, if that makes sense. So, yeah, it would help staff if, if you were able to indicate if, if you're comfortable with a black chain link or if, and a height, give us a bit of guidance on materials that you might want to see as well as height. Absolutely. I was going to hold that to the comment. Yeah, I just wanted to get the question out there to see if they what they were planning and then that way we can address it during comments. Great. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. So, Andrew, it looks like I think on. It's going to be maybe page 16 of the applicant presentation is where my question lies on the West elevation. Maybe not page 16, I guess in the packet it was page 16. But it's there, they're extra. Oh, here we go. Hey, there we go. There we go. Perfect. Right there. So, can everybody see the gray boxes that are in the garages. Okay, I would like to know what those are. And I would like the applicant to tell me. Those are some of the mechanical. What we normally have on a rooftop, but because of the length of the span, it was more affordable and more appropriate to provide some of them in the garage. So, those are are the mechanical units that normally they're like suitcase package units for like a split system or something. Yes, probably the ground floor units, I'm guessing. Yes, yeah, you can do it. All right. So that answered my question. On that. So that's beyond the parking that's outside of the parking zone. Yeah, I get that. Okay. So I have a question on the, the, the leases, this product from Lauren. So with the inclusion of the offices, those kind of office spaces, I know, in terms of the definition of what a bedroom is, they, they don't meet that definition because they don't have a closet. It's not actually a bedroom, but how are you going to prevent. I don't know. Two people from running a unit that really shouldn't be running a unit kind of thing and potentially occupying that office as a, as a bedroom. And then, you know, obviously that that alters kind of all sorts of things related to, you know, parking, not necessarily provided on site, but, but, you know, around the area. So that's my question makes sense one. Yeah. Honestly, under fair housing. If, you know, as HUD would claim would express it there an unfamiliar couple can rent a one bedroom unit, meaning somebody that's not married or boyfriend girlfriend or boyfriend boyfriend. They can run to one bedroom unit. I, we have nothing. We, there is nothing we can do about that if, if they determine that they're going to put a bed in the office area. I would think that, you know, I know that there's murphy beds that can be placed in an office that people don't, you know, basically work and. During at night they sleep there so that that is something we can't control the idea we are putting together. We're, you know, we're marketing this as one bedroom plus office. The rents again are focused so that, you know, it meets a single or a couple's, you know, gross income. A reasonable percentage of their take home income to for housing. So I would I like to see everybody use that as an office. Yes. Can I do anything about it. No. But I guess that's that's being in the apartment business. Yeah, that's, no, that's a great answer. And I just, it's, it's more curiosity about, you know, if it's, you know, can be least restricted or something like that. I just, you know, I just my head goes to how people may take advantage of an amenity that you provided to, you know, which may disrupt kind of the overall plan and idea you have for the project so that's Well, it's it's a look at it and you thought about it a lot, but it's hard to control something like that. Exactly. And it is a great question you ask and you know we actually in the community area of the building that we actually have offices available for the use of the community. Also, so I mean, you know, they'll be reserved, you know, and obviously management will control how they use them, but we know that there is going to be in quite a few people within this project who are going to be working virtually, and and how they use their space really is pretty well up to them, but there will be other amenities so if the couple decide that they're going to put a bed in that extra room or because of whatever their situation is, I guess they will do that but they would still have an office that they could go if they reserved it in the B building to for privacy. There's also actually going to be a conference room for the community in the B building so if somebody had a business meeting per se and they didn't want them to come to their unit they will be able to just, you know, reserve that conference area and then be able to utilize it. The other thing, those condensing units that are in the garage, they're there because we needed to figure out how to get line sets, you know, and not have so much pressure drop, you know, then trying to get them all to go to the roof. So all right. I'll mute myself. Thanks, I appreciate that. I have one more question for the architect. So you mentioned that you were having issues with the ecosystem. And this is probably, I don't know, it's maybe straddles a building apartment question. So, you know, we have new code requirements here in California and probably you will experience a new code requirement for this project depending on when you get it in for plan check that may, you know, I've heard some rumblings about some changes to the California energy code and we've already had it in the last code cycle here and so I know our firm we've moved to EFIS and a number of situations because you know, Ford's a continuous insulation, which is one of the ways to get to our energy envelope requirements. And so Stucco has some inherent problems with that in terms of continuous insulation and other things like that. So I guess I'm wondering why EFIS became problematic and you went back to kind of a more traditional system considering that EFIS is now the more technologically advanced system in terms of meeting the energy code, if that makes sense. Maybe that tax on the John's question a little bit. Let me answer that, chair. We reached our general contractor has to they would have to take the building envelope out of their contract because their liability carrier will not provide coverage for EFIS installed product. We have the same, our insurer, our builders risk carrier and liability carrier is Lloyd's and they have the same issue. So I we were seriously on the track to using EFIS and then we got kind of told by those powers that be that no you will not use this so that's how the decision was made. Sure. Yeah, and I'm aware I used to live in the southeast and there was a lot of problems with EFIS related to water intrusion and stuff like that. So that has scared a number of insurance companies in terms of with that particular building envelope installation methodology. I've been doing this for several years, so everybody could learn about that. There's some huge lawsuits probably like 20 years ago in Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and stuff. Anyway, yeah, the insurance company, you know, I'm guessing as more people are allowed to use it, you know, you may see some role changes and you'll see maybe see some coverage changes but right now it's it's a bridge too far for if you want to get coverage. Sure. And then you may not know the answer to this at all but I when you were talking about the numbers, projects that have no parking have reduced car ownership and projects that provide parking have increased car ownership I just I got to thinking it's kind of almost a cart before the horse chicken for the egg scenario right if you don't provide parking more often than not the people that do not own cars are probably going to move into that type of development as opposed to the other way and so I mean I guess do you see that as an advantage for this particular project in that you're going to attract people that don't have cars that just have bikes that want to ride or people who potentially want to sell their cars and get away from having their car you know those types of things is that kind of my classic example of that you know as a few years back in Minneapolis my sister and brother-in-law sold their big house out on the lake and moved to downtown Minneapolis. The first thing they did was they had two vehicles that they got rid of one and I know the comment from my brother-in-law was I was the biggest raise they've gotten in a long time you know a car is grossly expensive I know that you know in a holly I don't know if you can chime in but because you probably have the numbers but we ran some you know I think the average cost of a used car is somewhere in the mid 30,000s now and when you ran it over five years you know that you know when you figure gas you know insurance repairs and maintenance you're looking at somewhere between 15 and 20,000 a year you know and if you're earning you know if you're if you're that single occupant and you're earning 56,000 a year server and 20,000 is going into a vehicle you're pretty quickly going to say wait a minute I don't really need this because I can walk to work and if I do need a car I can get a zip car and if I do you know I mean grocery delivery is huge it grew exponentially through COVID I if you want you know Amazon will run over from Whole Foods and drop your groceries and they'll all be sitting there and you don't even have to you can go to the grocery store and an Uber if you want but you know there's just a big wholesale change in how things are happening and so you know when you when you you know we looked at a bunch of studies you know that the probably one of the overwhelming things because we're actually trying to where we're just getting into working in the urban Phoenix market. 36% of the ground area of the city of Phoenix is dedicated to parking. So, so when you start looking thinking about numbers like that, there is eight parking spaces in the United States for every vehicle. So, so as an urban developer I think about things like that and I think about trying to be green and trying to, you know, fight global warming and to be a good contributor, you just you look at those things and sooner or later we have to really start thinking about how we deal with this. And we just think that the propensity of the urban worker is going to be, you know, I don't maybe need a car, or maybe I just want one car because I really like this car that I've owned for a while but I just think that you're going to see where this transition and and we're really hoping that this becomes a transition and small urban centers like Santa Rosa like it is becoming in the larger urban centers. Cool, and then I just I had one final question I'm sorry I have so many questions. So this project we just saw a project last week that are two weeks ago sorry that also has units on the ground floor apartment units on the ground floor, but unlike that project this project does not provide street access from those units. So that that project was set up kind of as a stoop scenario where you walk down and there was individual units with stoop and that was actually how you access the unit that on the ground floor. And that has taken the opposite approach in that you access the unit from the interior double loaded corridor and you can't access the unit from the patio. So I guess I'm just questioning the activation of the street in terms of those units and that private patio space and kind of just what you were thinking there. Well, you know, this is something we struggle with all the time chair. We actually on Dutton did what you were saying, and now we're getting kind of pushback from the tenants will probably end up, you know, putting rails there to secure their patios. Okay, we're right up to the sidewalk here and, you know, we're also in a, in a transition neighborhood I mean we're going to be, you know, we're going to gentrify this neighborhood, obviously, you know, and that, and we're going to, there's going to be a change in the character of the neighborhood but there's not going to be an immediate change in the character of the neighborhood it's going to take some time as these units fill up and as people are utilizing our, what happened there. You can stop sharing the screen if you want. Sorry about that. Yeah, so I mean, so it's, it's a conundrum we go through I know my wife and I have chatted about it. There are times over glass of wine about, you know, what do we do with these ground floor units and, and Michelle runs the side of our company that asset manages and, you know, it's, it's, it's probably more at this point, you know, it also kind of goes into the one marks question about the windows long there you know he says damned if you do damned if you don't argument you know we want people to engage on the other hand we want them to be able to have their privacy so it's, it's, it's a tough situation and as we work in the governor and as we work on more and more of this urban stuff, especially in northern California here where urbanism is unless you're in the bay is is is a newer as a newer commodity. We have to kind of, we're walking down a tightrope where we're playing off, you know, how do we, you know, the, the, the best part, you know, in, in owning these things. The best thing we can do is have a controlled access point. And, you know, which makes everybody come through an entrance and they can, you know, that with all the virtual stuff now they can beat themselves to get the self in. So, so that was the reason the other thing that you know, the physical reality is, is that we have a grade differential there. And, you know, if we put doors there we would have to have a da at those entry doors off of Wilson, where we are a da through this whole building, because of the elevator but, you know, it would be a quite a ramp getting in from the sidewalk into that unit. So. Well, thank you. Yeah, the, the, the, I, the elevation changes an apparent on the documents right it appear, you know, looking at the renderings and all kinds of it. It feels like it's very flat between the those porches patios and to the street so understanding that there is a great differential I think answers the question for me in terms of why you would make that decision because then you don't have to build stairs ramps or otherwise to meet any sort of the chapter 11 b requirements and building from there. Okay, so I think we're done and behind the other questions of the project, now that I hogged all the time with my questions. Okay, so we'll go to comments now. So basically, since this is a concept item, staff is going to take notes. I'm going to take notes to. And what we try to do is you kind of try to figure out what, what would be like actual conditions of the project potentially. And at the end we'll run those by the applicant see if they see anything that's, you know, kind of undoable for budgetary reasons or design rate, you know, their own personal design intent of the project. So we will do that and I'm going to start taking notes and Sheila, are you cool with being in the hot seat today again. And we'll go to you for comments on the project notes over three pages so try to try to find out about the location. I think it's fantastic. I, you know, we kind of discussed maybe the lack of parking none is required. I know the smart train has had some difficulties getting the commuter riders that they were looking for. And I think this could definitely help with that people have a difficult time with that last mile in between the station and wherever they work and this is just right there so I think I think this will get a good market for people actually using the train as well. So let's see. I do like, I think in the materials you called it the broken roof at that one elevation and you can actually see a little peak of it from another elevation I thought that was pretty interesting I like that design. I like the idea the applicant mentioned a zip car. And I think that would be a really good amenity for the site. I like the options. I like them I think it's while there's not too much difference between them all I like the idea of an office. I've mostly been working from home and trying to create office space has been very difficult. That's why I always have a background on. One of the comments was to look for opportunities to green it up a bit. I do agree with that I don't, you know, get creative. And then with your landscape plan really explained how you've taken advantage of the space you have. Maybe put some verticals and taller trees something like that. Just a five. The north elevation was a little bearer and had a lot of blank walls for me so if you could do anything to add some visual interest there. I would appreciate that. I'm hoping that this project because we've seen a few projects here in this general area will attract this is not for you but will attract some more. We've talked about the markets we talked about bodegas and things like that for people who honestly don't have a car where they can pick things up easily. I was curious if there was an option to add garage doors to that tuck under parking for additional security. And for me, the ground floor elevation, while I'm not opposed to the materials. It has a, it's a little taller than the other floors and for me the, the colors that were chosen make it same a little heavier and a little more squat. So, that's, that's it for my comments, but thank you for the project and the presentation. Okay, we'll go to a board members staff now. For his comments on the project. My comments are really just that I wish that it developed I wish that more developments like this had been available when my wife and I moved up from San Francisco. We were residents of places like this and it's we enjoyed that style of life so thank you for helping to create them here in Santa Rosa. The only substantive comment I have is somewhat self interested as a member of the community. And that that the one EV space is tucked over in a corner, like almost every group facility tucks tucks their EVs, EV spaces into. I, I would probably probably I don't know the zoning codes off the top of my head but I assume it would be a no cost solution to potentially move that space or move that charging option into the middle. I think that cars can have access to it. Otherwise, what what inevitably happens is that one car squats in that spot or having forbid a gas car parks in that spot and then people aren't able to use the charging stations. It's a common complaint among the community. So if there's a way just to keep that accessible to more of the cars in that spot you'll have you'll have happier EV EV drivers in your building. And that's it for me. Thank you. I believe that I think that I think it's a zoning code requirement that like a certain percentage of your parking has to be EV now. And they also, you guys may want to look at this, because I was just looking at it for another project of mine. But I think the EV also has to be accessible, ADA accessible so you guys might want to take another look at that in the zoning code. I don't think it's a, it might not be a Santa Rosa zoning code. I think it's a state law requirement. I can't remember. I look at so many zoning codes for work. I can't remember what everything is, but your point I think Mark is well taken in terms of the EV spot. John comments on the project. My comments are very much supported with the project. I mean, I really like the, the ideas, the concept, the background, the research you've done. And how you clearly understand the market you're aiming at and, and where you want to go with the project so I'm very much excited about that. I believe that this is an ideal project for the for where it is. I am, maybe just a little bit, you know, the color palette just seems to me to just be a little bit boring. I mean, I'm sorry, I would just like to see it more in line with, with, you know, one and two. I don't know anything about that there's nothing really, you know, I don't really have any hard bias against that but I just seems. It just seems to me to be just a little dull. I'd like, you know, to, for you to, to think about something other than stucco. I understand that this has got a pencil out, but it just. What I think is, is something that I think is important in terms of being able to, to, to, to lease a space it's got to, I think it's got to be something that, that fits in well with the surrounding community. And I'm not sure that that the color palette you've chosen really does that. And the North side also looks a little, I mean, aside from, you know, the, the, it just do some if you could do something with that. I know I'm being vague. I know I'm not being very specific, but those are just some of my comments that I have and and. But, but I am delighted that you're doing this. I'm excited about it. This is the kind of housing that we need in this city, not only here but, but all around the downtown so really, really want to support you and encourage you to go for it. Thanks, John. So I guess it's my turn. I would actually disagree with Sheila and john and I am the sole architects here tonight. There's actually a couple of things going on on the north elevation that I think are are unique and they don't read in the elevation they read more in the 3D kind of axon from the corner there. So they actually have this kind of really interesting kind of s shape that's happening on kind of the left hand side of that, which is actually an element of the roof that's kind of coming down and over. And then the blue area next to that is actually pushed back. And then is, and then has those yellow kind of areas kind of popping out there. And then it's got this really nice kind of gray band that then separates which then it looks. And then it has that. So I think it's actually, it's doing more three dimensionally than I, than I think at it then I think you guys might be reading it. And I think what's causing part of the flatness to happen is the probably the lack of windows on that elevation, which to me is a byproduct of the elevator core and the stair core on that side of the building. But there's like the little tiny office on one side of the stairs, and that's what has a window but then the stairs do not. And then obviously the elevator doesn't have windows but then the end of the hallway, the double loaded corridor does have windows so you're getting windows in the center there. But but not kind of in the middle where that those core functional elements are of the stairs and the elevator, and then on, I guess it would be the south side. And then the south, southwest. It looks like there's a bedroom so the window is out to the street facing side, whereas it's got a little sliver window which would probably be adjacent to a bedroom bed. So I think that's what's causing that that elevation for you guys to maybe not read as well. So there's some functional elements that kind of can't move but what they have done is they have provided a nice kind of sort of push pull depth to that elevation that that I was reading quite well I would actually say that the, the front facing side that has the Pullman sign is actually the side that needs some love, because that entire elevation is flat. It's all flat, all together and other than the the recess for the entry to the, I guess it's the mail room. Yeah, the lobby in the mail room. And so I would actually encourage the applicant to take the big yellow area that has the Pullman sign and actually pull that out. If they can, to create some depth along that elevation. Or, you know, introduce a kind of that s element again perhaps on this elevation where the gray stucco is to create some depth on this elevation because this, I guess the side would be the south elevation with the Pullman sign on the entry is really lacking depth in that regard. I think, I think some type of because the other three elevations are dynamic in that sense that they are, they are kind of having a push pull, or at least the north and the the east kind of have a push pull element associated to them. The west elevation which is adjacent to the railway is also very flat, but because it has the balconies and it has the canopies at the top, and it actually has a very nice rhythm of the color change reads as having some depth, even though it is very flat. So I would say that the, if that makes that makes sense to the applicant. And on the east elevation because there is kind of that push pull happening. It feels like it kind of dies in the middle, where there's kind of these double windows with the yellow in between. And Andrew that may, if you could bring up just the, the 3D views this actually might be helpful. If you get a chance. Those windows need to like recess a little bit, as opposed to being flat within the wall. Because they're, yeah, exactly that so where the four kind of bands of yellow are, and then they've got those two pairs of windows on either side. I feel like that maybe could be pushed back a little bit, probably not the same depth as the balconies but it is reading very flat in that area to me. So that could, could live to be pushed and you guys can see here that that shape that I was talking about on the right side of the building and kind of the push pull that's going on. You see in that Sheila. Okay, cool. And then I would agree with Sheila I, I actually liked the grounding of the, the kind of the bottom, which you're kind of creating a podium, but I think this is the wrong color, and it's also the wrong material. And I think that's what's causing it to feel more horizontal than vertical. So I, well I appreciate kind of the idea that you've created kind of like an eyebrow underneath because it does have some additional height from the other floors. The horizontality of the material is creating the kind of the squat feel and then also the color, kind of the green that's reading in this rendering doesn't really play into some of the other stuff that's going on. Lost you. Yeah, it's because I had to tell my children to stop talking. Because they're in the background babbling. So I think anyway so that horizontality of the ground floor I think the color change and the material changes nice. I just don't know if it's the right material to go along with a kind of what Sheila said. I kind of disagree and agree with Sheila on the garage doors and the reason I asked the question about those HVAC units was kind of because what about garage doors what about those types of things. And I, they can't do garage doors if they have those HVAC units right there. They, that's just, I don't think it's an option, they have to have free flowing air through all that park cars all that good stuff. So I mean, I think it's a great idea but maybe the applicant can speak to that a little bit. And then I agree with John in that. I think the colors could use a little like I like the blue, because I think it's talking to the adjacent building but the yellow feels like it could be a little bit more vibrant to me. And it looks like there might be two colors of yellow based on the rendering, but it's probably one. And then I think the introduction of the metal material. I think it's just kind of an extra material. In terms of the, I guess, Andrew, could you, I think it's the aerial view that shows the adjacent building. That one. Yeah, there we go. So the metal, the metal panels are kind of on that bottom left hand corner, and it's not really reading as metal panels to me. I'm guessing it's some type of maybe all Pollock or kind of composite aluminum panel. It doesn't actually read to me that it is metal it reads just like it's an extension of the gray stucco above it. And so I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to put there, even though you're trying to emphasize that corner. I think I'd much rather have just that stucco finish come all the way down and be consistent. And then I think tied back into John's comments about kind of not being a fan of the stucco I think that you can play with the stucco in terms of, are you hard trawling it are you sand finishing it do you have a different course this level of the aggregate that you're putting into it which can create some level of depth between the different stucco finishes and colors that you have with really not adding any cost. And I think that may be the kind of the dynamic change that that john might be talking to in terms of some of the colors feeling a little flat or not interesting and that if they were kind of all a homogenous stucco color or stucco finish and then you just change the colors it just kind of feels like you, you know, you colored a coloring book, as opposed to introducing different textures within that stucco product and additional colors, and I think that might help a little bit as well. So I think those are those are all my comments on the design I think I think it's a really interesting and unique design. I think we'll see what happens with the lack of parking and as you rent it out and I know we've had other projects where parking has been a huge concern for members of the public and I think members of the board as well and kind of how that operates and it does offer up the options in the real world, but I think in terms of where this particular site is this building is located and what it's near. It does offer up the option to not have parking and to maximize the lot. I agree, but that may be a challenge and it may have to be something vertical on the building, which issues potentially depending on what you're doing. So, so I think at this point we'll, we'll circle back to the board and see if they have any additional thoughts or comments about anything I said, or that anybody else said. I'll say you have any add-ons. Does anybody have any add-ons and additional thoughts? No. Okay, so not hearing any of those. I'm going to go to Andrew and ask Andrew if he, if he heard everything well and he's comfortable with everything and there's anything he didn't hear well, we can maybe reiterate it. Thank you, Chair Weigle. I appreciate all of the details that everybody provided. I think this is really helpful. There's, I did want to follow up on the fencing materials along the rear of the building and the height. If we could get some guidance on what the Design Review Board would like to see there. And I would like to make sure that keeping in mind that if I'm not mistaken, the smart rail line does run a six foot small opening chain link along that west side of the project as well. So, maybe by some direction there on fencing would be great. The second item that I was noticing is it appears that with the sort of the ski slope roof. It comes down to its lower part. It doesn't fully screen mechanical equipment that might be on the roof top. And so I think that the design guidelines would require screening of mechanical equipment. And so just maybe a bit of feedback on what you might like to see there to ensure that mechanical equipment is screened. But then keep with that design detail of the ski slope roof would be appreciated. Andrew. Yeah, thanks for reminding me about the fencing. I really appreciate that. I personally don't have a preference for the fence along the smart rail because that kind of is what it is. Right. I mean it's a security fence to keep people from egressing into a very dangerous space. I think the applicant does have control over would be the gates on I, I guess it would be on on the 8th street and then on, you know, potentially whatever may, maybe on the side that access is the first phase of Pullman, the Pullman lost So I would just be concerned about the gate between like the corner of the mail room and the corner of the smart rail there and my my thinking is that that needs to be not chain link. In terms of, but it just needs to be somewhat more elevated. You know just a nice metal gate and over time durability wise I think if they power it and do those sorts of things. The gate that's like that is going to serve them better over time. You know, I've replaced, I don't even know how many powered chain link gates in my career with something else because they just they break very easily they're very flimsy. They just don't last. So I would encourage the applicant to go after a more robust gate but keeping in mind that that budget is a concern. And I would say just on that side, I probably, you know, 42 inches, because it is an active street, because I think any taller than that's going to start to feel, you know, it's kind of kind of have that imposing feel as a pedestrian walks by. That's just my opinion I know Sheila, john mark what do you guys think. Do you agree with it with your comment. I agree, I agree, especially, you know, look at the materials chain link isn't the best. But as Chair Weigel mentioned, you know, leaving your budget look for something maybe a little better and then I absolutely agree with the height. I know it's like to be next to six foot solid board fence when you're trying to walk and that fence wasn't permitted and it just feels like you've got nowhere to go. So yes, 42 inches. Thanks. You know, I'm a and B, it is a 42 inch chain link fence and we did that for two reasons one is. Again, we're in a transitional neighborhood here we have a lot of homeless meandering down that bike trail we felt that having that as open as possible but a barrier per se I mean if somebody's going to climb that fence they're going to climb that fence I mean there's nothing to do about we'd have to have eight foot with, you know, concertina on the top, you know, which I think would be not the urban environment we're trying to create. So, that's the product we picked. Honestly, we'll look at the gates. I'm a little concerned about the. The building densers are no more than three foot tall. And the top of that building is, you know, somewhere in 53 four feet I, I know right now that there's one building in downtown that's a little taller than that, but not. There's not many more than that. I know that in flats is is we call it our Santa Rosa skyscraper because that's five stories. And, you know, I think the ability to see those condensers is that I don't know you'd have to be in an airplane I guess, or a helicopter. Just to comment. Yeah, and I mean I, I should have noted it, because normally I probably would have caught it. But on the parapets I mean we need to hide the mechanical systems and actually on the north elevation there's a gap where you can see the mechanical systems where the blue, the blue area. So Andrew I think we just maybe require screening to cover the mechanical systems. And if they need to, I would just say if you have to take that parapet up six inches, like, no big deal, just the whole thing just take the whole raise it up six inches. Or, you know, maybe the other thing that might be going on is, you know, maybe it's just a rabbit thing, and you just kind of plucked a standard condensing unit out of the rabbit library and threw it in there and that's not actually the size of the unit. Yeah, just a little detail. Yeah, chair I think you're probably on to it I think the drawing really doesn't represent the actuality of what we had. We can look at that but you know I if there's a break in the parapet and you actually, you know, now I'm thinking about it because for design purposes they did do that dip on the, on the north elevation. And maybe at that point what we do is we, you know, put a screen wall in. So again you can't see it. Again, somebody walking down the street is going to have to be pretty far. It's a tall building, you know, so. Yeah, but I mean I think the design I think Andrew points out a good point if you can see them accounting units from, you know, far away you can still see them and that is counter to the design guidelines so I just, I would say take a look at it make sure it's correct. You go before the zoning administrator and that you can't see them and they're at the right height and I think we'll probably be okay and whatever that means if you have to raise the parapet up a little bit. If you have to add an additional screen to kind of hide it. I think those are some options to you. But I would just make sure that they're not visible. We can look at it and we'll study it a lot closer and that we're good there. Understood. Yeah. So I would thank Andrew for pointing that out. I think I was so focused on the kind of the six ones that are in the, in the garage that I didn't, my brain didn't connect to the ones on the roof there a little bit. Okay, anything else Andrew, are you good. Well chair I think a lot of great feedback and certainly we really appreciate it going forward and look forward to the minor design review application before a sport review. So thank cool. And then I would, I would just take it back to the applicant here did did you guys hear anything from the board that was insurmountable undoable. Is it a disaster or is in general conflict with kind of your overall vision for the project. No, I didn't hear anything. I think the things were good I think we talked our way through a lot of the pieces. We're anxious to get rolling here and we want to get the thing in front of the. I think it goes from here to Z is that what it is. Andrew, so we'll, we'll take in consideration and we'll work with you all and I'm sure we can get make it work. So, one thing in regards to I think somebody, there are a couple of things we are what somebody from the neighborhood reached out to us about a neighborhood parking plan and so the our internal team at Phoenix is going to start working with the neighborhood and the city to create a. I think you call it a neighborhood parking zone or something but so we're going to work on that it'll be beneficial for us also. The other thing is is our project manager Holly when we started excavating the site found 600 lineal feet of rails so we will be utilizing that in the project and so there will be some interesting art aspects and you know maybe we can tie it in try to get some I'm not sure there's not a lot of place to put green here but we hear you and we'll try to figure something out. So thanks everybody for taking your time tonight and then you probably want to get home to dinner or at least walk to your kitchen to have dinner. I think for many of us it's walk walk the five feet from where we're sitting to our dinner table or what have you. Cool. I think I think that's about it. I know that well actually I should wrap this up. I know I drove I drove by Dutton. I don't know forever long ago when it was raining and there were some issues with that and in terms of drainage and color changing. And that may just be a product of the colors on that building I would just maybe. We had we had some initial efflorescence issues on the darker stucco and we think we've cured it. Remember you're working with a cementitious project product it's it's it's always a the proverbial crapshoot so but where we think we think we resolved it we we I can't remember Holly worked on that one too but I think there was also something with the roof coping or something was letting water in and and then we're getting efflorescence so. Well that's that's never good you don't want water in there. Oh never. You don't want that in your extra enclosure. Construction. Yeah, it is the growing pains sometimes okay. So I think we are done with item 8.2 doesn't look like there's any additional public comment since it is a concept design review you kind of leave that open a little bit sometimes. So we'll end item 8.2, which takes us to item nine, which is our adjournment at 625pm so we'll see you guys in a couple of weeks here February 3rd. Have a good night. We are now adjourned. Good night.