 I got a really interesting question by one of the students in the selling service design with confidence course, which you can find over here. And that question was, how do you start a conversation with a client about measuring success in a traditional way? Because a lot of the things we do in service design we know are intangible but do contribute to success. So for instance, increased employee engagement in our projects is an indicator of success. But also things related to anything related to customer experience, customer satisfaction. For instance, our KPIs could be things like how many smiles do we see on the faces of a project team when they walk into a project room in our service design project. That's really often the word project. But the number of smiles, you're not going to measure that of course. Or are you? Because that could be a really good indicator that you're on the right track in your project. These things we know are important. There are many, many intangible things. And our clients are usually not used to valuing those softer KPIs. They are used to working with stuff like they prefer things like, for instance, the MPS score where you just get a number. So how do you start a conversation about that? Because putting new KPIs into place is really challenging. Well, I think it's challenging to talk to your client about the number of smiles in a room. We might not want to be counting that. But you could always be talking about KPIs related to process. So things that you could more easily measure is how many projects have we started this year that are related to employee experience? How many service prototypes have we created that have failed? Because that could be a sign that we're experimenting. So my tip would be if you have to start a conversation with a client about KPIs and service design, talk about the outcome KPIs that those are really important, but also talk about things related to the service design process. So can you measure the process? Can you put indicators into place that show you that you're actually doing the right things in your project? I think you can and usually that conversation is much easier. I hope the screen isn't too dark because the clouds look awesome. Anyway, KPIs, really important conversation in service design. I think we all should be having that conversation more with our clients. What is your conversation about KPIs with your clients? Leave a comment down below. And if you want to know more about service design, don't forget to check out the selling service design with confidence course over here. Because there are many more people interested in this topic and where every day we're learning from each other. So hope you enjoyed this. Hope this was helpful and I'll see you in the next video.