 Welcome to DEI Matters, Conversations with Margaret Credo-Thomas, and I'm excited to talk with Dr. Henry Turner and a principal at Newton North, and Kathy Lopes, the Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Newton Public Schools. Henry and Kathy, welcome to the channel today. I'm so happy to be here with you, so excited. And we are here today because we're going to talk about their new book that they have written, which is called Change the Narrative, How to Foster Anti-Racist Culture in Your School. And so, like I said, I'm so excited to dive in today with them in regards to their book. And so, before we get started, can you just share a little bit with the audience who you are, how we got here, how did we get to writing a book? I'll just start. So I'm Kathy Lopes, Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Newton Public Schools. I'm entering my third year in the district, and by way of social work, I've been a social worker connected to education for most of my career over 20 years, and met Henry in this role in Newton while he was a principal, while he still is a principal at Newton North. Yeah, and so I've been an educator in the greater Boston area for over 20 years at this point, and have been principal at Newton North for seven years, and through my passion in education has been to help all students achieve at a high level, and particularly helping those most marginalized groups who feel like school is not for them to help them feel more connected in school. And so when I arrived at Newton North, my second week of school, we instantly hit a hate incident where a group of students drove around waving the Confederate flag, and it was a moment where we heard from our Black students, particularly, who said that they did not feel like the school cared about them. And so it's been a seven-year journey there of trying to really dive into this work and help to create change in our culture to help create those improvements. And so when the pandemic hit in George Floyd, and Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Aubrey, those events happened. There were a lot of educators looking for, you know, looking at systemic racism and racism in their own schools and calling for help and reaching out for help. And so I started doing some writing. I had connected with a publisher, and they gave me the support to try to, you know, thought that we had a good story there to help principals. And in terms of co-authoring is that, you know, I realized that this was a journey that I couldn't go alone. And as Kathy and I got to know each other, you know, we were talking a lot about writing this book. We were talking about it as I was going to be a support. Exactly. So you weren't looking at it as my name should be on this book at all? No. But I would say that, you know, I got some great advice of the idea of just that a second person can, you know, can really add to the story. And I have to say that as the book finished, is that there's no other person I'd want to write this book with. You know, Kathy's lens as a social worker, my lens as a leader is really interested in the change process. I think that that, you know, that human side and that change process side really helped to really strengthen the book. And so, you know, I think it was a perfect partnership for us in writing it. Yeah. It reminds me of that you always, you know, we talk about having thought partners, right? So you all were a thought partner, but we get to hear, right, what those conversations were. That's the way I look at it as you co-authored the book. One of my questions to you is that, like, how did you arrive at this title? You know, change the narrative, and I understand that piece, but it's like you're saying how to foster an anti-racist culture in your school, right? So how did you all come to this title? So, you know, there's actually a quick story to this and that, a teacher who had been thinking about the history curriculum that he teaches and how when it was taught in a western, from a western perspective, it had a very tight narrative. And as he heard from students of color feeling like they were not being seen, their history is not being seen in the curriculum, you know, his first pushback was that, well, this disrupts the narrative, right? And the reality is that history is not a tight-knit story, right? There are many different stories. And so at one point he said to a group, he said, I realize that we have to change the narrative, you know, and I think it's symbolic of, it's a great metaphor of so many other things that we're doing in our schools, right? The stories that students of color are underperformers in school, that students of color are the kids who get in trouble at school. The narrative that students of color don't belong in honors and AP classes, the narrative that parents don't come to black and brown parents, don't come to school, don't care about their kids, right? Like, there are so many falsehoods to that, and I think that those are the narrows that we need to change, and I think from the anti-racist perspective, you know, there's been a long time where that blame has been put on those people, right? Those parents don't come to school and therefore they don't care about those kids. Those kids, you know, get in trouble, they don't care about school. And I think from, you know, even from Kendi's work, which I think was really, was really poignant in this idea that we can either look at the system and blame those who it affects or we can blame the system, right? And so asking these questions, why do we see racial disparities when it comes to grade distribution or discipline rates, right? And what can we do to change that story? I think also to add to that, and so Henry had presented this to me and he already had the title, but immediately I was like, that makes sense. And one thing about us is we're both, we have a lot in common about our journey through education and into leadership, and one of the kind of parallels is we've both been like students of color and predominantly white educational institutions throughout most of our lives and even find ourselves now working in a predominantly white community. And knowing what that feels like, that there's this narrative about what standards and norms and success should look like and what behavior should be accepted and what shouldn't. And I think throughout this book, a lot that came up for me was my experiences as a student of always feeling like, because I wasn't always adhering to what the standard was, which was kind of like the standard of whiteness, that somehow it was my responsibility or I didn't fit in. And I think when I think about this book from a broad perspective, it's like, let's change the narrative as to what a standard is and how can we accept diversity? How can we celebrate difference and identity and open it up so we're actually appreciating and working with it all and not just holding folks to this one standard and if you don't make it, then you're excluded from the community, you're excluded from your learning. So it's really about how do we shift that narrative to be more open? I think one final part is that it's a book for leaders in education. So whether you're in a position like a superintendent or a principal or a D.I. director or you're a teacher who has a leadership role. And it's about the change process. So we really structure the book about how do you foster change? How do you build culture? And so I think the idea of change being one of the prominent components of the title. Yeah, going through the book, I saw that the chapters, they build on one another. You all have really started with a good foundation. So like I said, as I read the book, I continually visit chapters, good leadership, anti-racist leadership and a cycle of learning for anti-racist leaders. It says, an anti-racist leaders lens reflects, acts, assess, and I think you, did I miss one? Learn. Learn. I thought was a great kind of like, I'm like, this is for anything that you do, right, that you should really be reflecting, assessing, right, acting on it because I wanted to get you all an opinion on, as we talk about D.I., anti-racism and I saw the chart. Do you think that that's happening? Do you think people are really like, reflecting, assessing, acting on it? You know, like, is that happening or are we really being performative when we start talking about this? Well, I can share just in my role as a D.I. director and hearing communities say, help us do this, right, but they kind of come with their own ideas. They already come with their own set, agenda of what they believe should happen and what it should look like. And that reflection piece does often, like, it's missed as to what could you be doing? How are you perpetuating this process? And sometimes unwittingly, right? So I think the thing about this book is we really wanted to create a way for folks to pause and really think about how to do this differently because here we are in 2022. We're still dealing with a lot of the same disparities and issues and racism within our education system. And so this was a way to have us just like stop and say, what's the self-reflection that needs to happen? The first half of the book really is on your own work. How do you pause? How do you reflect? How do you try things and say, this works, this doesn't work? And then step into a leadership role where you can build and move people in that direction. And I think what happens with some of the performative work and particularly what we've seen in the last two years is this urgency to make it better, fix it, and not realizing that we are still participating in a system that is really harmful until we pause and think about, you know, what about this system needs to shift and what role do I have in helping the system shift, then we're just going to keep, you know, it is going to be performative, it is going to be short-lived, it's going to be superficial and not have the deep level of impact that we want. So this cycle was created for us to try to do something different. I also think that we're, as educators, we are incredible learners. And what we know from research is that 80 percent of teachers nationwide believe that anti-racism is something that should be discussed in schools. And so what we see is that, you know, as educators, we read a book and then hopefully it's this book, but we read a book and we tomorrow want to implement something. We want to do it. And you know, there's been so many experiences. You know, I have one that is, as a principal, I remember our, you know, we gave training on the software for teachers. And the next day, students were just dazed and confused and because the software I've been using, every single class that they had been using, right? And so that just shows what the educator mindset is, right? And so in this work, we have to be mindful of what are our intentions, where are our biases, you know, why are we implementing this? And I think, you know, some of the failed policies that we see nationwide that are DEI-driven sometimes are because they're so quick, right? Like this idea of grading policy, I think that some districts have just said, you know, we're going to mandate that we're going to do, we're going to, you know, require that there are no more zeros. And they haven't explained to anyone in the community why they're doing that, right? And so therefore it ends up getting this major backlash and it ends up failing at a, you know, with all likelihood it fails. And so I think we need to be mindful in how we implement it. I think we need to be strategic, you know, and that's what effective change is, is building a learning organization, bringing other people on, not criticizing everyone on their own journey and their own understanding, right? Like sometimes those who are really quick to talk about DEI issues, you know, end up judging those who are a little bit slower or a little more hesitant, right? And therefore we create divisions within our faculty. So how do we, you know, recognize that we're on this journey together, we're on different paces, and as leaders we need to be strategic in thinking about what is the, what are the issues that we really want to implement and think about a long-term plan to implement them. Yeah, you said something that really resonates with me and I use that word, you said journey, and I use that word with a PD that I did on Wednesday with someone where, you know, I was like, this is not a destination. You're not going to arrive somewhere, we're on a journey. And I said, you know, we might make some stops along the way. There's, how would you have a leader? How would you have, so let's, you know, we have superintendents, we have assistant superintendents, we have principals, and we have teachers. So we have teachers at the, in the classroom, right? We have principals who oversee a building, right? We have your assistant superintendents who are either curriculum and instruction or finance and operation, right? And then you have your superintendent that has to see the whole arc of everything. And so here's this new book, right? And which I'm like, this is really great. And like you said, I was like, oh, wait, Margaret, let's pause. I did, I paused and I'm like, huh, how can I start to introduce this book? So being a DEI director and really looking at some of what you all have written and some of the things that I also believe in, where would you tell me? Or where would you tell a superintendent or assistant superintendent or a friend, where would you tell them to start? Like, OK, now I have this book in my hand and I read it. And now I'm like, OK, Kathy and Henry, I'm not sure where. Yeah, I would say you start in the first part of the book, right? I think the first part is your own is your own journey as a as an understanding racism and understanding the change process. And I think that it helps to then think about how do you foster others? So the second part of the book talks about policy. How do you build relationships with students, curriculum and instruction, building relationships with families in the community? There you can bounce around to different chapters. But I think to start, and I think what we've seen with other with districts who are who are implementing this book with their with their staff is that they're using this to focus on the learn part first, right? And then and that's what the first part really is. And then reflecting and that could take that could take a year to go through that process. I think that to what you were saying earlier is that I've worked with districts that have said, you know, we put equity as our on our school improvement plan this year. And I asked, well, how did it go? They said, well, we're exhausted, right? Like, we're not going to solve racism tomorrow, you know? And so we need to think about this as long term planning. And that's why I think that your question is, you know, dive into sort of where are we as individuals? Where are we as a group, you know, as an administrative team? And then think about what are the topics we want to take on? Yeah, there's actually one of the chapters begins with, you know, the question I get, right? When I also do some consulting when schools call me school leaders. It's always like, what do we do? Tell us what to do. And it's also like, take a step back and have some vision. Who do you want to become, right? What kind of school community do you want to become? So I think that once you've done the self-reflection and you've really kind of like thought about who you are in this work and what you bring to this work. It's also take a step back and do an assessment of your community. And what's getting in the way? What do you know about your community? Who is succeeding? Who is not? Who what are the experiences of your community members and start to take that information and then you can kind of break down, let's do this or this is a goal for us. So I think that it's also really important that there's a process that you're responding to what you now have understood exists. And how do you get take inventory and get feedback and identify, you know, the voices of those who've been historically marginalized to say, these are issues and I know they're issues because right. I have this information and we want to do better. So how do we start to tackle it? So I think what like what Henry says, when you have this overarching vision of like, oh, it will be anti-racist and will be equitable without understanding what's getting in the way of that. Then then it gets overwhelming. You get burnt out and you're not actually like hitting the pieces that are that are that are the barriers to getting there. So I would say have leaders step back and do an assessment of your community and what do you know about your community and where can you start building? Yeah, what what are the outcomes? Right. What are the benchmarks you're trying to reach? You know what I really appreciate that you said, because, you know, somebody can read this book, right? Back to cover and like, OK, let's go. Like you said, let's go. And you said something, you said the reflection part might take a year. And I was like, hmm, oh, that is really like just saying that, right? Stops people and it makes people pause and be like, wait, a year. And and I think as we are doing leadership, PD, that's where I'm at. I'm like, OK, so this introspection and identity is going to might take it might take us a year to do that. So I really appreciate that you all are saying that. How do you slow down, though? The leader that has the school improvement plan, right? This is they've done their set for now our strategic goals. Like you said, we've put equity in there. How do you talk to me as a leader to say, OK, Margaret, like your vision sounds really great. Your mission even sounds really great. How would you get me to slow down so that we can do the work? And I don't want to say slow to go fast, because I really don't like that. So how would you get me to to be as though that to say to me, it's not that, you know, if I want this to go the way I needed to go, I need to go with others. So so how would you how would you have this consultation meeting with me where I'm like, I have your book, I'm ready. I've bought two hundred. I'm ready to disseminate, which probably has happened right in some places. Now what now what do I do? I think there's so much in the book about kind of recognizing the barrier piece, right? Or understanding what could be challenging about this, right? What would be challenging about changing a grading policy and just pausing and saying, you know, we could have that idea. But what would that actually look like if we just decided tomorrow we're going to change a grading policy and what would we need to do? We need to build an understanding in the community. We need to build coalition around making it happen. We need to be prepared when resistance arrives. And when we do this work, it's always going to it's always going to present itself. So it's it's helping someone say, I get that you want to get there. Let's really think about the what does it look like to get there because we can announce it and then what right? What can we anticipate is going to happen? You're going to have educators that say, I don't want to do this. I don't want to have uncomfortable conversations in my P.D. Parents that are going to say, you know, that's great. You have this mission. But as long as, you know, I want my child to continue to have the benefits and resources and access that I have created, right? There's this ownership about creating these resources for students. And so I would say for a leader, they really have to be prepared for what's going to be hard about this work. Clearly, this work is easy. We're still talking about this work. We haven't solved this issue. Our educational system is still functioning in like, you know, really old ways and harmful ways. So someone wanting to jump into this. My pause would be what is it going to look like to get there? And what can we expect are going to be some roadblocks to get there? And let's really break it down and think through who do we need to bring in? Who are school leaders that we know children are drawn to or have been really successful? Who would thrive taking on a leadership role? What are the parents that we can utilize them to support? How do we communicate this? Whether it's through our newsletters or community forums and how we're learning about the experiences of those we want to support? One of the things that's really important in this work is that we are working in alignment in alignment with those who we're trying to advocate on behalf of and to make decisions without the voices of those who are experiencing the harm really isn't then about the community that you're trying to serve. So the other pause is who in this community that we're trying to support is a part of our leadership has a voice at the table that is guiding us in thinking about some of the structural implementations we want to make. I think if we really want to turn off our faculty as a principal is walk into a faculty meeting and say, I read a book. Because now we know where that's going, right? Here comes the I role. We've got another initiative going, right? Exactly, right. And so this is the problem with all of our planning is that we want to try to do something immediately. We do a one-off meeting and then ask people to do it. And then they feel like ill-equipped or they just have been around enough to know, you know, I'm going to listen and then I'm going to do whatever I want to do in my own classroom. And so, you know, one of the things that I thought was an effective strategy around a reflection was was our math department. They for a year sat with this data that even though we were promoting the idea that students could move up or down a level is that we saw as that actually very few students did. And so, in fact, when we said we weren't tracking, there were many there was a lot of data that was reinforcing that we actually were tracking. And we saw that Black and Latinx students were in college prep and advanced and advanced college prep classes, math classes and that white Asian students were in honors and accelerated levels. And so, you know, before they just said, well, let's, you know, just blow up our whole level system, right? Like that would not work, right? So they sat with that data for a year to think about what are some strategic ways that we can address the fact that, you know, in many ways we are we're tracking. And so then it took to thinking about what are some of the actions they can take and then let's pilot some of those actions. And so a small group did and, you know, it led to some of the improvements like some of our multi-level work, for example, some of our work we're doing around grading that has led to progress. What we're seeing that we now have more Black and Hispanic students in honors and AP courses and in excelling in those courses. And I think it's because they were mindful in their process of change. I really appreciate what both of you all said. I think what I'm getting as we're talking is that and this is the thing that we don't say. It's OK to slow down. It's OK to pause. It's OK to reflect. It's OK to assess because that's what I heard you say in regards to the math, right? And I'm thinking we don't really say that a lot. I think you have to say it multiple times in order for people to be like, oh, wait, I can slow this down or I can pause for a minute. Oh, we're just right here. Well, it's OK that we're right here because this might end up back in my step again next year, right? Might end up back in my school improvement plan next year, because this was phase one, right? And this has to be phase two. That's what I'm hearing you all say in regards to even how to like really kind of like utilize your book and really dive in. I'm hearing you say like this is not like I'm saying this is a really good book to read everybody and just read it in a day. You're really saying like really dive in, Margaret. And it might mean that I'm on like one chapter for the next six months. And that's where we're at. That's where I hear you say. Right. And this is this is lifelong work, right? The personal reflection is lifelong work. It is a journey and having this be a transformational change is going to take time. I think what you're talking about, too, is the societal pressure to prove it works, right? If we're going to invest in this, if we're going to give our PD time, we're going to give you resources, then you have to demonstrate that it's working. And I think one of the things, too, is for us to really identify ways to demonstrate success that are not our traditional methods, right? That might not be in percentages or numbers or certain data that it could be stories or we have this community now is excelling in math and in ways that they haven't. And how do we capture that? Because for two reasons, right? We have to kind of demonstrate that this is important and it's necessary. But also, when you want people to invest in change, they have to be able to recognize or feel the movement of change. So it's also finding like those those high points to say, this has happened. We've had some students now who never would have done this do this. We have faculty showing up in droves to participate. And those are signs of success that are not always traditionally measured. But it is undoing some of that thinking about what what classifies a success and us being able to articulate that and and use our voices and use our stories and use different measurements to say this is important. And here's how we're showing that it's working. And I think that the change happens in a lot of ways because of perseverance. And so there's many years of activities and workshops that you can do with your faculty. We have something in there for how to work with the athletic department in terms of workshop. How do you work with the counseling department? How do you give instructional feedback to teachers? Right. So it's something that you should continue to a book that you should continue to come back to. And and and you can put it away as you're, you know, focusing on some parts of your of your work and then come back to it years later. And so we hope it's a, you know, it's a timeless book and that you can continue to come back to it. Yeah, I think it will be a timeless book if we're still talking about racism and systematic racism. So I don't think this book is going to be going away. I think people, like you said, are going to be taking it off the shelf on several times. I know it's sitting on my desk and I'm thinking about different ways to to really utilize the book and, you know, and just to really figure out how to phase this in. I thank you all so much for being here. But before we end out in Kathy knows this, I always like to ask, like, what is that inspirational quote? Or what is that song you get in your car? It's been that day. And, you know, one of the things I started doing as, you know, everybody likes to do icebreakers. So one of the icebreakers I've been starting to do is is find a picture on your phone that brings you joy. And I've just been staying with that because it's like sometimes the days are so hard and this work is hard. So what is an inspirational quote or what is that song? Gosh, it's hard for me to pinpoint a specific quote right now, but I do tend to really find like some of my thinking about perseverance really in Audrey, Audrey Lord quotes. And sometimes when I just need to feel kind of like the compassion within myself, I revert to bell hooks. So depending on what I need, because I think Audrey Lord and her push for radical self care and being able to do this in non-negotiable ways and unapologetic ways really resonates with me. But sometimes it is also about being like it's okay and finding that compassion in some of the soft ways that bell hooks talks about this are places that I return to. I can't think, there's so many quotes, I can't think of anything specific right now in the spot, but those are two authors that I constantly used it to keep moving in this work. I'm gonna go slide on the family stone. I'm everyday people. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a way of just thinking about that, we've got to find joy in this work, right? And we've got to be able to laugh and we've got to be able to celebrate. And I think that as we're seeing a lot of hate in our society and tension in our society is that we got to get in our car and we got to turn the music up and smile, right? Yeah, still got to stay committed to it, right? Thank you all for being with me today. If you all are interested in purchasing Kathy and Henry's book, you can find it on Amazon. I know that they were up there at the top. You all will like number one for a while. The first month, yes. Yeah, so. You wanna get back up there. Yeah, so if you're a school district, if you're interested, if you're a community, go on Amazon and you can find it. Kathy, Henry, thank you so, so much for being on our channel. Again, thank you for being here again with Margaret Cuddle Thomas, where we have more conversations that are coming up in the future. Take care.