 And I've been asked to moderate this forum. It's a community forum to gather ideas for the future of the Elks Club property. It's not a night for making decisions. It's not a night for legal votes. It's not even a night to debate. Instead, it's a gathering night to brainstorm. My background is as a professional is in public facilitation. And I'm dedicated to public engagement and public process in service to each and all of you. And so I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone and gathering as many different ideas from as many voices as possible so that this is a meaningful start to a deep public process around a historic opportunity for the future of Montpelier. I'm just going to take a second before I introduce Mayor Watson to walk through the agenda. So we have a sense of the sequence and structure of tonight's meeting. We're in the welcome section. We're going to go into some city information where we're the mayor overviews where we are with the project in in general and welcomes everyone to come together. And then Bill Frazier, the city manager and his staff will overview the process to date around the property. Potential processes moving forward information around rec services and the other features of that could be part of the planning for the process, some basic financial information. We'll then hear from folks from the hub, who have a plan for a recreational facility that potentially could be part of this process there. And hopefully Ethan Atkin is with us or someone else from that board will share their overview, and then we'll stop for a minute and have time for questions and answers and sometimes a question is more an observation than an answer. We want to spend the whole night just hearing from the city. We don't want to spend the whole night just thinking about the what what's already known. Instead we want to take time to think forward around what are some of the key features what are the key values key opportunities and have those come from from all of us as citizens of Montpelier. So we'll have some brainstorming that gets into a discussion of the housing and the housing opportunities and some of what people would like to see in that regard, the recreational opportunities and potential provisions. The open space and what what should that balance be and how do we preserve and protect things that are particularly important in the open space. And then an open time about 15 minutes to hear your ideas and to gather perspectives that aren't on the table yet beyond those three areas. Then we'd like to take just a few minutes to say what are some points of vision and also process and ask people to lay a sentence on the table that could be part of a vision statement for the future of that property. And there's no right or wrong answers to any of this discussion tonight. We want to hear from everyone on all sides of the issues and we but we would love to gather some key points. Much of this will be brought back to you will be taking close notes the meetings also being recorded for anyone who missed tonight and wants to watch it at another time. We'll have a journey 830 sharp unless we get done early and we run out of things to say, but I'll be looking to each of you to think forward and put, put your card on the table for what could happen in regard to the space. I want to just now introduce Mayor Watson. Congratulations on your reelection in and we'd love to hear from you. I want to thank all of you for being here for taking time out of your day to share your thoughts with us. And that really is the point of this evening of the Council had this wonderful opportunity to potentially purchase this land and since that bond has passed. We'll be pursuing that. And with that, we are just at the very beginning of what could possibly happen at this site this is the Council has recognized priorities like housing, recreation, open space, potentially even childcare at this facility. But we didn't get into too much more detail than that because we want to hear from you we want to hear how you all would prioritize these things not to be fair tonight is is as Paul said it really is about just getting a lot of ideas out on the table and hearing about what you all would like to see there. This really is, like I said just the very beginning of the process, and there will be more opportunities moving on into the future for you for the public to share the continue to share their thoughts with us and the Council, especially as we learn more. And just for that I also I want to thank Paul for facilitating this evening we're so grateful to have you here with us running this meeting and I'm looking forward to just stepping back for a change. Normally with Council meetings I'm facilitating those meetings but I get to just listen, which I'm really excited about and I'm excited to hear your thoughts it's an opportunity to dream. And it is always wonderfully fun. So, I think that is that's it for me and next I think I'm going to turn it over I think to Bill for a some further details. Thank you Mayor appreciate it. I would also say before I go into I have a very quick presentation, like super quick. Hi everyone for turning out here I know the zoom format is troubling for some people but you know my computer says that are 124 participants. So that's pretty great. You know we don't always get that many in a room so perhaps there's there's pros and cons to this. Mary can I share my screen. You should be able to yes. Okay, now if I can just figure out how to do it. Maybe the next best thing right. What am I looking for how do I find her. I click share. I don't want that. I'm sorry folks I will get this. You are screen sharing. I just need to find my file. Here we go. All right I think I'm getting there. Okay. I think this is it yes. Thank you for bearing with me. So tonight is our first public forum of hopefully many discussing the 203 country club lane the location of the former elks club and golf course. All right, the project that we're going to be talking about the city is going to purchase 138 acres of land and the existing buildings at the 203 country club property. The city government along with you the public will pursue housing rec open space and other as you've heard described so that's basically what we're here to talk about. We all have asked a lot about the price we had the property appraised by O'Brien and Kaffenberger an independent fee appraiser. They appraised the property at $2.93 million. We had our both our present, our new assessor Marty Lager stat and our outgoing assessor Steve Twombly, both experienced and licensed fee appraisers we had them review the appraisal. And then we also have the methodology data and conclusion. So the negotiated purchase price had been 3 million with 2 million coming from the recently approved bond and 1 million from the recreation reserve, and that is pretty much on point with the appraisal. So how did we get here. We have a really fast version of how we got here but the group the hub who you will hear from presented their concept to the city about using this property for us or recreation and our club and some other things. We agreed, given the city's needs for recreation we agree that it made sense to partner and not duplicate facilities or be in competition but in fact, we're compliment in a complimentary manner. So the council we decided together the group, all of us decided that the property really had more uses than just rec although that was what maybe drove us here that housing open space and others childcare as the mayor mentioned, were possible and that was something that we need to process. So ultimately the bond was proposed to the voters and passed a couple weeks ago. So we're going forward. This forum is really kicking this off to as Paul mentioned to get ideas on the table from people what they'd like to see what you'd like to see. We will be presenting we staff led by the our planning director when presenting a formal process to the city council on April 13 so not next week but the meeting after that. That would be a lot like I think the things that we're talking about tonight, we so there will be a follow up to this forum. We're going to capture the ideas we're also going to put out, and we don't have the exact details of this yet but very soon this week. Some sort of online feedback system where people can weigh in on not only what was said tonight but add to the list of things we can get a sense of priority, and then we will report out somehow. We can go back to the public either with a follow up meeting, or, you know, reporting out, so that people know, not only all the ideas that were shared but what people had indicated as priorities. Obviously there's technical work that has to happen, geological you know where the wetlands where the ledge those kinds of things. Analysis of there is. There is a public water and sewer at the site, but we do need to analyze its its capacity for various things obviously a market for housing and those sorts of things. We need to identify partners, we certainly don't expect the city to do all of this on our own, particularly the housing component that's not something we're strong at so we would be looking for housing partners. Obviously the hub is a potential partner, and then we would be thinking who else we need to work with for various aspects of the project. And all of this will have regular public check ins to make sure that people know what's going on and can make sure that to hear from you all as to are we on the right track. So, talking quickly about recreation just as we think of this conversation and you're not limited to this but we thought it might be helpful. In 2019 not that long ago we did do a survey about recreation needs and desires, in part because we were trying to decide whether we should be pursuing a new facility or renovating the old rec center on Barry Street so the top five items that people indicated were a gem for basketball and pickleball. You can see group cycling and spinning studio a weight and cardio area group exercise and dance room and multi purpose rooms. And then other items that got interest were sports lectures health and wellness education music arts crafts special interest classes after school and childcare summer camp and dance. Obviously we're interested in seeing do those still resonate with people that are there different things that people would like to say. Finally, we've been asked a little bit about our relationship with the hub. The hub is a private not for profit organization and they're looking to provide recreation opportunities for the community as well and plan to invest capital private and privately raised in the property and programs. The city certainly supports the potential for collaboration public private collaboration at this site and the hub. Hub representatives will speak next so I don't want to speak for them but people have asked us about them. That's it. So in summary, I think you can think of it is sort of large to small and this is we're starting today at first we want to create a vision for what would go there. So what's the big picture where all the things we'd like to see, then develop using professionals develop a plan that shows how that could happen. You know where housing might go where certain things might be what an open space might look like and again all of this with public feedback. Then we would have to engage partners to make certain parts of it happen so the housing group might be one the rec group might be another. And then implement it by its components we don't have to bite this whole thing off at once. And I think recognizing that this is going to be a multiple year effort this is not you know we're not going to have this all built out next summer. This is going to go on for a while as we as we plan this thing so this is a long term long term planning and developing effort. So that's the short version of what I have to say of how we got here where we see ourselves going. And without I will turn it back to Paul. Stop my share. So much bill. It is Ethan here from the hub or is someone else going to be representing the hub tonight. I am Paul Nat Winthrop. Oh hey, good to good to have you with us. You have the floor now. Okay. My name is Nat Winthrop. I'm vice chair of the hub board and a 40 year Montpelier residents with kids and grandkids who also live in Montpelier. The hub is a 501 C seven nonprofit organization. Our mission is to provide vibrant equitable and inclusive space for leisure activities and recreational programs to enhance and promote the social and physical well being of the community. Our volunteer board of directors is made up of residents of Montpelier and surrounding communities. So this is where we are going to be. So this is where Vermont lacks a central family oriented recreational and social facility. There's a need for a facility that will offer recreational and social gathering opportunities that families and individuals of all ages can enjoy in an accessible convenient safe setting. This is a very round membership based social and recreational center, servicing central Vermont communities. As a community space we aim to serve individuals families seniors school groups and kids of all ages. This is a facility that is set at zero aesthetically pleasing and sustainable facility that will include a social center with space for a restaurant and bar after school educational and skills programs. We will also offer a spectrum of four season indoor and outdoor recreational activities including racquets courts, virtual and practice golf, mountain biking, bouldering and hiking. Bouldering and rock climbing, disc golf, botchy ball, horseshoes and other facilities developed by the hubs members and the community. The hub has been in discussions with the present owners of the former Elks Club for the past year and a half about building our facility on their property. Over the past six months, we've been in discussions about a partnership with the city of Montpelier to collaborate on finding ways to both individually and jointly offer as many social and recreational opportunities as possible in response to community identified needs. We're excited about the opportunity to partner with the city to create a complimentary cluster of recreational programs. The hub will invest substantial funds through donations loans and grants in developing our facilities over the next few years. As suggested by our name, we plan to be a vibrant focal point for community life in all its variety, the kind of asset that can attract businesses and families to the area, enhance our quality of life and be a lasting legacy in Montpelier. I and other board members who are on this Zoom are happy to answer your questions. Thank you so much, Nat. Great to have you with us and really appreciate the intent that you have there to enrich the life of folks in Montpelier. I'm going to ask folks to raise questions. We have a good period of time to do this. Both presentations were shorter than they might have been. And I'm going to ask you to folks know how to use the raise hand function. You go to the bottom of your Zoom screen to reactions, click that and it will give you the opportunity to hit the raise hand and I will then see you up top in line and I will call on people in line. I'm going to ask folks to be brief in your question so that we can get as much information on the table as we can to share if you have an observation rather than a question. Oftentimes people ask a question when they really want to tell you something. That's okay too. But again, be brief. We'd love to have it comment stay under two minutes. Remember everything is being recorded that all ideas are also being captured by a scribe so that this meeting is really a foundation stone to the future thinking with the community and it will be iterated back to you. You will hear back the ideas that hit the table in this meeting and we're not judging those ideas tonight in terms of what's in or out of the package of things that might happen. We're simply listening and gathering together. The other thing I would say is let's do this in the best spirit of civic democracy and and let's not have a mindset where we already know the answer to a question. So that we're not fully listening to something that maybe put in a way that we disagree with when it started but try to learn from each other about the key in the idea that might be useful in the long run to the larger project. That said, please raise hands if you will and we'll take some questions and begin to think this through a little bit as a team. I see Nancy Bruce has her hand raised. I'll ask you also to make yourself visible when you speak so that everyone gets a feeling for you and you have the floor Nancy. Thank you. Thank you and thank you for facilitating. Thank you for the hub and all the beautiful amazing what you're offering to the community. I just, my question is when the the rec survey in 2019 happened. I would I would be really curious if there was a cross section of city members that participated in that. I worried that perhaps that survey reflects one portion or of our community. And I think that there are many, many who want to participate and have opinions, but don't have an entry point. So thank you. Thank you, Nancy. So make like me. Go ahead, Bill. Yeah, Nancy, I don't have the the data right here in front of me, but we had 513 respondents to that and it was done in a random survey type. It wasn't a volunteer survey, but I can get more of the specifics on that. And there were a whole series of questions including how much are you willing to spend and those kind of things. Having said that, I think the reason I put them out there was we're not wedded to those outcomes. That was just what people said three years ago we're top priorities. Part of this process is to hear what people think are the priorities now. Yeah. And I. Yeah, thank you, Bill. And 500 people. I don't feel represents the entire socio economic level of our community and their and their needs. So, I guess I would just offer and ask, is there a way to capture that beyond that, this survey, thank you. Yeah, we'll certainly try. And, you know, and I know we don't want to belabor this but it's a point that I think other people share you know 500 people in a community of our sizes actually considered pretty significantly statistically significant when you think about national polls they pulled about 1000 people. So that was a pretty good turnout obviously we don't know who all the, the respondents were, but we are always trying to reach out so we'll keep working on that. And I think the point on being inclusive in the future of the outreach is one that we'll ask the scribe to know. John's now you're muted John. Thank you Paul and, and Mayor and Bill for pulling this together it's very important. What's true about the hub is short and sweet. I didn't hear mention of a swimming pool, and that has been rumored around. What's true about a pool at the hub. That is under discussion. However, due to the substantial costs of including and what's been discussed as an outdoor pool but even an outdoor pool is adds a lot of costs to our project, both in terms of capital costs and availability insurance lifeguards, etc. It is something many in our group would like to see in the long term. But it's not anything that we anticipate building in the next three years or so it would be longer term than that. Thank you. Thanks john. You have a question. You on muting Esther. There you go. It's, it's hard for me to say anything about it. And I wondered if at some time you would have a walk through the property because I don't know what's level what's on a hill and that would be really helpful to me. If we could have a walk through sometime. Yeah, that's a great idea. I'll ask the scribe to put that in the idea bucket as well. But Bill, do you want to comment on that? Yeah, it's a great idea. I mean obviously if the weather was better we'd be doing that now and this meeting was set up. We've actually thought of doing a follow up meeting if we can figure out the way to do it at that site. I also say that there are trails there now across country skiing I think so people can go up there and look around I don't know how, you know just trudging in the snow how inviting it is but certainly encourage people to take a look and we will try to do that. Well, it's just hard to see what belongs to the Elk property and what belongs to someone else who. So that would be you know I'd really like to do that. Thank you, Esther. I'm going to ask Diane Sherman to raise her question I know some people have been raising their hands sort of in the background if you could go to the bottom of your screen to reactions and hit that it will let you electronically raise your hand so you'll be in a line with people. Diane go ahead. My question is, I, my memory is that there was a I don't know if there was a parks committee or commission or the whole city but there I thought there was a recreational survey done in the last year. And I was wondering if the results of that, do we have the results from that and will that be taken into account. In this process. The most recent rec survey that we have is from 2019. That's the one I was giving the data from a little bit at the beginning. We'll make that whole thing available for people parks may have done an updated one. I'm not you and I'm not on top of that one so we'd have to check on that but certainly any data that we have is important as well as what comes out of this process. And I would recommend checking that out because it was fairly extensive from my memory. Thanks so much Diane. Didi brush. You with us did he did you want to hit your video and unmute yourself in the far left hand corner. And start video. Right. My apologies, excuse me. Thank you all. I have three questions which I think are pretty quick so if they are not cut me off. One sort of is similar to what Esther was suggesting which is, I'm not sure where the actual property lines are for the property. I've certainly skied their walk there. But I don't know what the 138 acres and tails so that's one question. It'd be nice to see a map. And the other question is about the maintenance relationship between the hub and the city. If the city is the owner of the property. What will that look like who who's responsible for what as, as regards to maintenance of facilities and or property. What I wanted to ask is, will, given all the uses that are being suggested for this property, will the cross country skiing still be allowed and or accommodated. Thank you very much for those great and concise questions bill you want to take them. So the relationship with the hub is still being determined. So there will be some sort of lease agreement or, you know, some agreement that will determine who does what so obviously maintenance and responsibilities is is high on that list. So the third question, the third question is cross country skiing, I think the intention would be that it would remain. Again, if that's something that people want if it turns out that that's not a popular thing which I suspect it would be, but the intent is to keep a lot of open space trails, and those kind of things. And there was a third one in there. The other one is, do you have a map of the property bill that will will will get a map posted. Okay, thank you. Callie. Yes, I'm here we go. Where am I, am I on. Yeah, okay. Yeah, good. So I just have a I'm trying to wrap my head around. Probably playing catch up in terms of how this is somewhat structured has the has it been determined that the hub is in charge of the recreation section of this property, or this project I should say. No, the hub has the hub has presented an idea that they would like to do a private. You know, what you heard, you heard that describe what they did. And so the idea is that is still being discussed is that if the city we're going to build expanded facilities that we don't step on each other's toes. So for example, you know, say they build a tennis court, indoor tennis. City wouldn't build an indoor tennis court would work on arrangement where we could lease time, or, you know, have time for the public so that they would be, it would be a public city, recreation facility, and hub facilities and the idea was that we figure out ways to work so we are maximizing the investment and making sure that it would all all work so you know city, people that go to use the city facilities could go to the restaurant at the hub for instance or whatever so that those details aren't final but the idea is that they would control the entire wreck thing they would control their property but that would be done in partnership with the city to make sure we have complimentary uses. Okay, so if if I have a moment for a follow up. So, so the hub owns a part of this property already. No, no, the hub doesn't own anything the hub. The hub had approached the prior owner about possibly doing this. And in the course of conversation made sense for the city to speak with them because we were, we also have a need for recreation facilities and it seemed like a good way. And then as this got talking that as those conversations pursued. It became obvious as this site could be used for a lot of things including housing and other open space so it said alright maybe it probably makes the most sense for the city to purchase this, and then do just what we're doing and plan. What's forward so, so there's no commitment with the hobby that they don't own anything yet, but they have been but I don't say that to cut them out either they've been they kind of initiated this. And so we see the opportunity to to have a partner but right now they are the major voice of the recreation. Well, for some it would be a city portion as well. I want to keep moving and obviously we're having this meeting because there may be ideas that aren't part of the hub that the community wants to see happen. And so there's opportunities. This is the beginning of the conversation of opportunities so I'm going to ask folks to go quickly we've got several people who want to speak and we're, we only have a few minutes so I'm going to go to Rob really briefly. Rob Goodwin. Yes, I'm here I didn't think I was beyond so quickly. Thank you. So yeah, my name is Rob Goodwin speaking here on behalf of myself, I will say that I am the chair of the Montpellier Development Review Board but you're speaking as myself this evening. And, you know, I just wanted to sort of make the comment on here that I really implore everyone in this call to participate in this process, take every up public opportunity and realize that now is the time where you can really have an impact on what gets done with this property and, you know, have a real real say in real vision about what sort of development we see in the city. But now is the time not to, you know, if you ask questions about what's been decided and what's there now is the time where your ideas can become a reality. And I think this is an exciting opportunity for the city. And I want to thank everyone for, you know, pulling this together and just implore continued involvement in the public process here. And also the public process around the planning and all development projects in the city, which is very important and integral to the success of these projects so thank you very much. Okay, Gretchen, your question. Hi, I have a question that's a follow up from when I watched the November presentations at the city council meeting. And I saw this presentation and I saw also saw the rec department's presentation. And I'm not expecting the city to answer this now but I would really appreciate more information about more granular information about the pros and cons of citing some of this at the pool the current whole place. There's a bid out right now to renovate that building and I've often wondered why that building which we already own and is already a structure is unused for three quarters of the year. And so I'm thinking about the relative value of citing these places in different parts of the city and that's an important part of the decision from my perspective. So, again, I don't expect it to be answered here I just like to have more access to that information. Thank you Gretchen. Any comment built before we keep going. Make sense. Yeah, good question. Yeah. Okay, Jody Peter Pedersen. Hi, thank you. My question is, would the hub be paying taxes to the city of Montpelier. I appreciate everyone going into a lot of detail on the relationship with the hub I would say again it's very new so probably if they did not own the property they would not be paying taxes but they would probably be paying lease. Because if we're the property owner we would be their landlord. We would be paying some relation unless they were providing public services in lieu of that so if they give us free tennis court time, you know, so there would be public value exchanged for their use of public land. Then we'll go to Sarah Hoffmeyer for the last question. I was wondering if, when we're in these early stages of planning, if there has been an economic impact study that's been done with Montpelier. I know I'm all about residents getting the benefits but also thinking about our tourism and what sports what activities are going to draw in the most amount of dollars for our businesses. I know Dan Berry Lake had a trail users study that was done not long ago. Vermont trail and greenways also had an economic impact study. So one, one similar to that. And just real quick Diane to your question, Montpelier alive did do a recreational survey just this past year. So Dan Groberg I know there were like 1500 people that responded to that. So you weren't wrong. Okay, thank you. And specifically to answer that question. We actually are doing an economic development strategic plan update this year in partly in conjunction with that. We've also done a little bit of research on the impact of outdoor recreation and one of the council strategic goals this year in fact I meant to talk about the strategic plan but I won't, but was to sort of position Montpelier to be an outdoor recreation destination. And so we do think that you know creating opportunities for outdoor recreation here would add to that along with the Hubbard Park and the mountain bike trails and all those kinds of things. We want more amenity to draw people. Thank you. A great set of questions. It looks like Kathy wants to ask a question I'm going to let you have the last shot Kathy before we go on to people sharing their ideas but go ahead. Thanks I really appreciate that because I'm really curious. The two names I've heard associated with the hub are that who we just met Nat Winthrop and Ethan Atkins and when I go to the hub. Or the website there's just like three or four paragraphs on there and there's no names listed. And in one of the articles I read about donating to the hub, the donation went through the Montpelier Foundation so I'm curious if the board of directors that we heard about is William Cody Ed Flanagan Karen Freeman J Pog Giuliani. Tom Galonka, Tim Heaney, John Haller, Sarah Robinson Jarvis, Koya Mosher and Jean Olson are those the 10 people who are on the hubs board of directors. Thank you. No, those those aren't. That's not our board. Nathan Atkin is the chair. I am the vice chair, Lynn Cease who is on this zoom is the secretary. And I could mention the others. So thank you guys for the skeletal nature of our website, which is by the way, the hub, vt.org. Within the next week we will list all of our directors on that website. And we will have answers to frequently asked questions. We'll also post some articles that have appeared. And two or three other things so we were waiting for a meeting we had just. When was that. Last week last Friday with Bill and other department heads at City Hall. And we were waiting to make sure we were on track with them which it appears that we are to, you know, roll out more information on our website. I'd anticipate that within a week there'll be a lot more information on our website. I see there's still people who would like to ask questions and we really want to move on to gathering input not just having information but I'd entertain a couple more if you can be brief and we can have short responses from people. Susan, are you all set or did you speak I'm sorry. Hi. Quick question. Kathy asked the first question that I had, but in terms of going forward. It would be important to me to have those doing the planning exhibit some expertise in the areas of, I don't know whether it's community planning facilities planning. But that sort of thing. And that was, well, that was one of the questions I had about the people who belong to the hub, whether they have that, whether the city has that, whether we plan to engage that sort of thing. Let's stop. Let's stop there. Bill, do you have an answer for that one. Yeah, we absolutely intended engage people with technical expertise in addition to the city's planning and our staff. Okay. Thank you. Thanks, Norman. Yes, a quick question. I was wondering if there's consideration for affordable housing on the property. There's interest and we're going to actually talk about that right next and we're going to gather people's thoughts on what the best sorts of housing should be that should be on the property. So we'll get right back to that normal. Okay. Andrea really quickly. Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it. I have a concern that I'd like to flag for the city as they go forward with the project, which is this is historically a golf, a golf club, a golf course. And if things like recreation and childcare and other kinds of activities are on the table. I think we need to look very seriously at the condition of the soil and the past history use of pesticides in that area. To be sure that we're and housing certainly that we're not getting involved in something that could be incredibly toxic for the who live and play there. And one other quick thing that I just want to note for everybody is that a 501 C seven organization as designated by the IRS is a social organization that is a membership group. And in order to achieve tax exempt status with the feds, they have to be limiting their membership. Thank you. I think a lot of this, a lot of further information will come into us being able to say what we think underneath we have really an hour in our agenda around brainstorming around property uses. So, you know, Andrea's comment that you need to make sure that the land is ecologically sound before you start having children play area on it and so forth. You know, we can really lay out some of those think those thoughts in a way that the scribe gathers as points of public interest in moving things forward. I'm going to turn now to the in our agenda where a few minutes late for it, beginning to brainstorm property uses and the first one is around housing so we've what we've got is 15 minutes to talk about housing, 15 minutes to talk about housing, 15 minutes to talk about open space, and then to, and then a 15 minutes to talk in an open way about any other ideas that you have for the future of the property that you want to kind of lock into the thinking at the very beginning of the process and if you, if you wanted to ask a question. I have another question to an affirmative statement of what you think should happen, and that will drop into the notes for the meeting okay. Margaret do you want to speak to the housing question. Well that was a quote that I that was what the topic I wanted to bring up affordable housing and in light of the governors and others wanting more to attract more young families to that this area. Affordable housing should be a priority. Great, thank you so much Margaret Catherine. You're still muted Catherine. My particular interest of course is in the natural resources and the climate resilience and environmental planning process. And I'm wondering what how this will be an organization where all these many aspects of planning will be coordinated and who how might that happen. So the planning for all these different features. Deborah messing you're not there you go thank you. These things need to be coordinated together. Thanks for that point Esther. You're still muted Esther. Esther you're on mute. Would it be rental housing, or would it be ownership housing. Tonight, in this part of the meeting, we no one has that answer what would you propose Esther. You're muted again. Okay, I think a mix would be would be. I would propose that. Okay. Okay thank you so much. I see Rick day Angeles is on the phone. Yeah hi, hi Paul and hello fellow citizens good to be here great discussion. I just want to underscore the importance of affordable housing. And you know I've worked in housing my whole career and an opportunity like this does not come along every day it's really a generational opportunity to build the diversity and vitality and fairness of our city. So I'm all for putting, you know, recreation is great but I'd love to have some affordable housing there. And I have a very specific idea I'd like to put in the idea box. And you know I work for the Good Samaritan Haven and we've got a real problem with homelessness in our town and in our region. And I suggest that whatever housing that we do there, that we have a target that at least 25% of that housing be targeted to people who are experiencing homelessness. And now we're at a moment in time that the resources are there to help make that happen to to provide the services and the support and good quality housing that can help those people get a new second chance so I'll leave it at that and thank you everybody for all your energy and great ideas. Thank you Rick and thanks for all that you're doing. Yes, as a formerly in my other life as a housing expert, particularly with energy I would love to see these buildings that are constructed be energy neutral net net zero, and a mix of housing types, so that we have not only rental and purchased, but multi unit as well as single and duplex type housing. Terrific thank you john Zachariah Watson. Hey Paul. Yeah, Zachariah Watson and joining me here is Peter and I, I just want to make a plug for what actually what john just said is a mix of housing, and specifically creating opportunities for affordable home ownership as well. These are my recommendation, affordable home ownership as well. Thank you so much Zachariah. Vicki in there. I'm concerned about the term affordable housing because I've seen a lot of numbers tossed around as to what affordable housing really is, and I'd like to explore that that the housing be really affordable and not someone who's a well housed version of affordable. Because some of the numbers that I've seen, you know bandied about as, as affordable housing seem like they're totally off the wall and out of the out of the site out of site for the majority of people. That's my concern. If we're going to have affordable housing let's have real affordable housing. Great, thank you for sharing that Vicki. Carolyn goes, good in ski. Hi Carolyn. I have dogs barking right now. I just wanted to say, with all the issues with congestion in town, I would suggest at the same time that any project goes forward with housing, or the rec center that were looking at public transportation, connecting with cross room on trail and the bike path and everything to get a lot of single family cars. Great. Thank you so much Carolyn. That should be a systems issue in the whole design here. Nancy Bruce. Hi Nancy yours. Yeah, Paul. Thank you. You're doing a great job with a hard night, but a good night. So housing, we're talking about housing right. Yes. And Carolyn you're still. Thank you. Go ahead Nancy. So we want to create all these beautiful recreation facilities where we don't have people to come and live here. So I, I, I'm going to go back to my previous statement about we are not getting the needs. We have a small population of people involved in government right now, and talking about these things. And so with housing, I think that, you know, an indoor pool, all these things we have to, we have to house the people that want to be here for monitors that want to stay here. Thank you so much, Nancy. Sean Sheehan. Sean. Hey Paul, everyone. Yeah, great. Great event. I on the housing I just want to echo I think what's been said on the diversity of housing. I think in terms of both rental and and ownership. So I think in terms of multifamily homes and density of homes, which I think feeds into what's been said I think in Vermont. You know, we were so heavily single family homes. And I think as Bill and others pointed out usually when things go to a developer, I think I saw last year 80% of across the country or more single family homes so I think as others have said this is a great opportunity to do multifamily housing also and I think we're talking about the trails and fast company in New York Times about intergenerational housing. I guess we get older and also want to attract young people. There's some great initiatives being done across the world. Be happy to share those articles to add to the record for the for the night of really where there can be a development and I think it feeds off of the trails, the recreation I think what we're talking about really can add to that add to the grand list. So affordable housing in the sense of at least being relative, you know, having a small home, it's going to be affordable relative to a large home. I'm going to, I'm going to cut you off because you're a friend of mine I can do it publicly. But, but, but if you want to send articles or thoughts you can send to msmith at Montpelier dash vt.org. We're going to be gathering materials to make as much of this input as we possibly can, and we'll repeat that at the end of the night so I'm going to ask folks to go quickly there's a lot of people who are lined up Amanda Carlson. Amanda. Good evening. Thanks for hosting this wonderful community event. It's great to see an evolution of all the conversation that was happening on from porch forum. Quick comment about transportation, totally second Carolyn's suggestion to really think about public transportation and maybe even a devoted transit route going up there frequently. And then also if the city is taking out a large bond to invest in housing maybe consider buying a fleet of shared vehicles, if we're installing a big housing development, and that's my idea. Thanks. Thank you. Very creative. Brian Evans. Hello everyone I want to be just another voice in the chorus here. I'm looking for affordable housing, looking for housing for the homeless and I would also like to throw a note in there for senior housing as well. Would also like to see if we could possibly codify a percentage of any new housing projects on the facility on the property to be affordable housing if we could put that into code so that's part of any negotiation with future developers. Okay, we'll capture that idea Brian thank you Carolyn, and then Catherine. I want to play off of Brian's comment about the housing for the elderly. I think in addition to that, it should be handicapped accessible that I see very few listings for available housing that's on one floor, and seniors have trouble with stairs as to handicapped people. Thank you so much for making sure that's in the record. Catherine, and then Susan. Thanks for hosting this meeting tonight. I'd like to reiterate all of the interest in both affordable housing and a diversity of housing types, and also to reiterate the comment earlier around a new development of the scale being a great opportunity for low impact development or net zero development and that'd be really in with, you know, broader city policies at this time too so it's a real opportunity to do. Yes, a really fantastic work that other communities can learn from. Terrific. There's a lot of points here that should enter maybe a vision statement that we throw together some ideas around that at the end so I hope people will stick around. Susan you have the floor briefly. You're muted. I'm working on it. I'm just going to go. I just, I would just reiterate what people were saying about public transit. I think it's going to be important to start that conversation soon. So, yeah. Okay, because if you're going to house people, and you want to say if you want it to be net zero. That's a big factor. Okay, we're going to turn. Thank you so much we're going to turn to recreation a minute but first we're going to have Jodi DD and then Amanda. So Jodi you have the floor. I just want to agree with everyone who's been talking about housing this is my number one priority for this land. And I really would like to see a lot of effort go into figuring out how how we can plan a really great community up there. Thank you. Thank you so much, DD. Okay, thank you again. I, I had transportation is one of my questions but people have already addressed that. It's very clear that if housing is is a major component there, as well as the idea of getting kids to recreation or daycare. So transportation has to be a huge component. The other thing I wanted to say was that I wondered whether it is already considered that the residents of all of the housing would have affordable access to all the recreation facilities. Good comment to have in the record. Thank you so much DD. Amanda. Thank you. Thank you. Amanda. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Amanda. Are you waiting to speak? We can't see you or hear you, Amanda. Yeah, I'm going to call on Kathy until Amanda's clicked in. Kathy briefly. Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to invite us to really break out of old paradigms and try to think about new paradigms when we think about affordable housing and in particular, one of the ideas to explore is that housing that's intended upfront, not to be like flipped and made a profit off of. If you're not giving the way land away or selling it, it gets leased for people to, for some amount to build homes on and the people that live there can own the home, but a restricted amount of increase that they can gain as sort of profit over time. And so in that way, assure that the homes remain affordable, like in perpetuity. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Lisa Moody. And then Vicki, and then we're going to turn a corner. Lisa. Where's me? Right there. Lisa. Okay, there. Sorry. Talking about transportation. My one thought is that there's one entrance into the property now. There'll be thoughts about other ways to get in and out of the property. Or it's going to be rather congested. Great point. Thank you. Vicki and are you Sometimes I can't hear your you talking. Yeah, like right now. But anyway, my question is, how we're talking about housing. I'd like us also to remember that, um, that land up there is home to wildlife. And let's try to preserve that. Thank you so much. Amanda, you get the last word you were waiting, weren't you. But you're muted. Yes, I'm new to this whole zoom thing. I've done it only a handful of times. I wanted to reiterate what Rick D'Angelo said, and that I think we need to really focus on affordable housing and not just affordable housing, but our homeless problem. Somewhere that all needs to come together. I'm also concerned about rating the reserves of the rec center because there is not going to be a new rec center immediately. And I would like to see budgets and balance sheets for the rec center. And I don't know how to get to that. Well, that's great point to make Amanda and we're going to shift with that statement into the discussion on recreation where we have about 10 to 15 minutes to then we'll go to open space and other ideas. So let's zero in on recreation and add to Amanda's concern. Do people have particular features that they would like to see and again, we're not making decisions for what the hub does. We're making, we're making, we're putting thoughts on the table for what we'd love to see and the hub could be part of it the city could be part of it as well. So, today's not the day to censor it's to put put our best thoughts forward on the table and I see several people have raised their hands. I want people to go quickly. And I'm going to start with Lucinda cloud. Go ahead. Hi. If it's going to be a multi generational facility. I'd like to put in a strong word, even though it's expensive for it for an indoor pool because I think that's something that's really important for all ages. I'm older and I think it's great when you can't do a lot of other things because of the low impact of water. It's good for little children to have lessons is good for auto aerobics. So that is my priority, but I also wanted to put in a plug for my grandson, his mother may be here but he wants a skateboard park. So, I am advocating for that for a 13 year old. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you so much Lucinda. I see Giovanna peoples. Hey, good evening, everyone. As part of the recreation visioning. I really want to emphasize public transportation we've set it for the housing. I think everything we talk about has to be underpinned by public transportation. Specifically, electric vehicles, electric little minivans, big buses, we have to go electric with our public transportation and absolutely need to put that front and center as we go forward in our planning and our vision. And thanks again, Paul. Thank you. Thank you, Giovanna. And then I see Susan. I also think that we should be considering several people mentioned the possibility of using the bike path to get to this facility. I think that if that is something people wish to consider we need to think about how that path is maintained in the winter and how that path functions at night. So, just kind of contemplate if that's going to be a major way for people to get back and forth, upgrading it, thinking about how it works for people so that it is safe and functional all season. Great, great points to have on the table. Thank you. Carolyn Gudinski. I'm not talking about the wrong group, but I just wanted to be noted, because I was a former parks commissioner, and there's a whole green print that connects all the open spaces that every community has access to open space. It needs to be coordinated with the parks commission green print. Great. What a rich opportunity. Is it diary Darian. I'm sorry. Darian McElwain, and I just want to just say tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis and tennis. I help coach my daughter's team at you 32 and we have lots of friends at Montpelier High School, and there's also kids at Spalding High School. And now that first and fitness has switched. These teams are no longer viable during the winter time. And, you know, before when they had that available it really brought those kids together and really helped the sports. So I'm just, just want to give my plug for tennis. Okay, thank you so much, Darian. Nancy Bruce, you're still muted. There you go. Thank you. Friends is so great to see everyone. So I just around recreation, which growing up, it was easily available but I want to point out that and say that we have a climate change crisis, and that what our children need is not a skate park or a pool, because we have rivers and streams and ponds and lakes. We need to make this land productive so that they can live there safely and comfortable. A particular thought about gardens or something else Nancy that should be in the in that land or in the planning of the process. Yeah, there should be lots of housing, lots of housing and. Okay. Okay. John Snell. Thank you, John. Yes, thanks. One thing that's gone unspoken thus far and I think it's important to step back and say it is that this land is unceded land to us, even though we're buying it from somebody who bought it before and so on and so forth. There were people who lived on this land hundreds of years ago, and still have, we need to honor that. Thank you so much, John. But any last thing burning thought around recreation that hasn't been said, knowing that again that we're at the open mouth of the funnel and that a lot of these ideas have been batted around and could conceivably come together around this project. Anything we might be missing Catherine. Hi there. I'm an idea that I'd like to have on the record is, you know, obviously the recreational planning will be a part of, you know, citywide master planning and consideration of the location of other facilities. Knowing that the downtown rec center is likely those I'd hope the master planning would consider, you know, which activities are really best suited to downtown. You know, if there's a new center on this site, you know, does have all types of recreational activities that you know for the much of the stuff that happens indoors. Think about whether there's a suitable site downtown for some of that smaller scale indoor stuff that doesn't need to be on a bigger site like the one we're talking about. I'm going to ask you Catherine, think of the system and where the different functions belong and that's terrific. I see Vicki and indeedy again I'm hesitant to give you guys another chance before we've heard from everybody but I will. But I'll ask folks that haven't spoken around open space to be thinking about that because we're going to turn to that in about one minute. Vicki in. I want to make sure that whatever recreation is up there that it is affordable to people with very limited means. Terrific. Thank you. I see Brad is here. Brad. Yes, Brad Watson. I've lived here since 1997 been involved in a lot of the rec programs and mom player, a lot of the youth programs and I think what I've seen in this community is antiquated facilities. When I first moved here, we participated in fundraising and built the center Vermont Memorial Civic Center, but I really can only point my finger at that facility is something new that we built for the for recreation for the kids of center Vermont. And I think we have a real opportunity, recreation wise to build facilities that are going to be all inclusive that we have to be mindful of what what the demographics of our community is and what what people like to do, whether it's a frisbee golf course, a tennis court, a golf course, a roller skate or skateboarding track, but I really want to see us be thoughtful about recreation. Thank you. Thank you so much. Elizabeth are you muted. Hi. Hi. Good. Thank you to Paul and thanks to the city for arranging this meeting that is a bit like being at the at the fire hydrant full blast. And what's occurring to me is that we have a lot, a lot, a lot of good ideas. We, I sort of think about placing those good ideas on the property, and suddenly realize that, well, we don't know much about the property. We don't know what it's carrying capacity is. We don't know where it is, but we don't know what it is. And I think that it would be helpful to conduct a site analysis and in depth site analysis and find out more about where the bedrock is, what the soil can carry. And so on and how we can assess this site's build ability and convenience for people against the build ability and convenience of property that we have closer to the downtown. So a site analysis and a, and a, an analysis of the pros and cons of other properties that could be in play. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much Elizabeth. I want to turn to Peter cone. I just kind of wanted to riff off of what Brad just said, and just turn the attention to the fact that recreation is absolutely an attractor to an area so housing. Definitely necessary and we need to have places for people to live but having adequate recreation facilities will also draw in more people, particularly people with younger children and families that will kind of put roots down here and then continue to grow and be a part of the community. So I'd hope to see maybe some outdoor fields and bigger space in addition to any indoor stuff but definitely look at it as a way as to attract people that we want in our community as well. Great. Hey, thank you Peter. Let's turn a corner again. And all these things interrelate obviously where housing goes connects to recreation, both of these connect to the open space that's there and we've heard people say it's really important to preserve the wildlife corridor. And we've, we've heard people say, Where is it? Where's the boundaries of this space? How does it connect neighborhood? How does it connect to transportation? How does it connect to the bike path? So, as we think about it as an open space for the future, are there particular values or particular things we would want to preserve, protect or enhance around the open space that's available there for the future of the community? Maybe this one's a little more abstract, but we'd love to hear anyone's thoughts about this. We'll start with Callie. Hi, I was going to talk in the next section, but in terms of open space, I am steward of a forest that abuts this property. And so when I think about open space, I think about what the impact of that will have on my forest. And I also think about landscaping. I mean, my forest, a good portion of my forest has already been decimated by invasive species. And my forester and the county forester, we've been scratching our heads for years about what to do. So in terms of open space, I would love to see it while dead. Wilded. Wilded. Let it go. Yeah, great. Thank you. Oh, can I say one more thing? Quickly. Quickly, okay. Since my property is wild and kept wild, I think the opportunities for people to be a part of a wilded land is important. Thank you so much. Elizabeth Robichek, you're muted. Not as soon as it's been very often. My background is in landscape architecture. I'm now retired, but this is a, the kind of project I often had chances to. And so what I'm hearing tonight is the vestiges of what we call a big idea and at some point, a big idea will get formulated. One of the things I'm excited about what I'm hearing is the level of equity and diversity that could be brought there, including the wild. In my work, I always listen for the story of the land as well as the story of the people. So one of the things I want to point out and this maybe isn't the next section is the difficulty of getting the opinions of some parts of the population. They actually have to be sought out rather than expecting them to show up on surveys. And so this could become a model living exercising project that's a model for how we deal with climate change and diversity and equity and wildness and transportation. It's the big idea I see forming as a model to other places that may have a harder time pulling it together. That's great. That's a great vision point. So come back to that one. Susan, and then Fran Dodd. I would like to find out what the Montpelier Tree Board has to say about what might happen on that property and also think about food. I think that there's a lot going on at Two Rivers Center. So I, you know, I know there's, I don't know what the ground is like. I mean, I think we have to find out what it's, whether it's safe, but permaculture comes to mind. Yes, thank you, Susan. And how does that connect with what's going on across the street there at the former Two Rivers. Yeah. Thank you. Fran Dodd and then Elizabeth Fran, are you with us? Hi, let's see. Sorry, I have to turn those both on. Thinking about the attractiveness for tourists as well as for a wide variety of housing. I think it's would be ideal if in placing the housing, if it's done in such a way that there's some of the aesthetics of the property that is preserved. There will be a tractor both for those who live there and for those in the rest of the community as well as for the broader public that we might want to attract to the area. I'll leave it at that for the moment. Elizabeth Parker and then Charlie Dickinson will be next. Dickerson. Elizabeth. Oops, getting there. Hi. So I just wanted to talk about the intersectionality of having public transit and car shares for the residential members who might live in this year in this on this property to reduce the amount of parking lots that would be there. Hopefully the parking lots would be permeable and that there's a lot of focus now on on as Susan was saying earlier on permaculture and on citing the buildings in such a way that there are, you know, edible gardens around the around those areas and could very well also be around any recreational facilities that are there. So an emphasis on gardens and community gardens, there's not enough you're in Montpelier so it'd be great resource. Thank you. Thank you so much. Charlie. I need to make one quick pitch. Since we're on the topic of open space. Can we consider having a dog free zone. I have quit using Hubbard Park, North Branch Park, Blanchard Park, the riding trails, walking paths, because they're all full of dogs. It's one thing to have a dog park. It's another thing to have every park a dog park. So if we keep open spaces up there at the Oaks Club, and we don't turn it into a golf course actually make a pretty good golf course. Please make it a dog free zone so some of us can enjoy it. Thank you for putting that on the table Charlie. I see a W Watson. Hi, I would like to put a plug in for the city to put in an awesome sliding tubing hill for the children. I think it could really bring the community together. It's very affordable fun. It's a great space going up the hill. That's safe. So I think that would be a great attractor for the community. Nice feature with everything else we're talking about. Thank you so much, Wendy, Vicki and Lane, and then Mariah. I would just like to remind everybody about the wildlife and. Yes, the dog, the non dog thing. Although I don't know how you're going to do that with with residences because I mean obviously people want pets but especially since recently, we've all heard about the dog that killed a deer. And that's unacceptable. So we need to really, really pay attention to the wildlife and preserve that because as soon as we, you know, every time bulldozers come on land and remove trees and whatever habitat. There's a lot more wildlife killed on the roads. So we're squeezing them more and more. So we just need to learn how to respect their homes as well as create places for us. Thank you so much, Vicki and Mariah and then Amanda. I just agree that that the dogs have a lot of places to go. A lot of the places in Montpelier for walkers and there's always been a contention about, you know, where the dogs. Yeah, we're not really trying to debate. Well, I'm just saying, I wonder if we couldn't have a dog in closed dog place for there because otherwise you would leave and there's a lot of dogs in Montpelier owners. And I just, what are you going to do say you can't buy a house because we want to have our deer protected and so you can't have a dog. You can't really discriminate like that. There must be a solution to maybe have an enclosed dog park, which we've been talking about for years, something like that. Mariah, so some finding that balance point solution. Amanda. And then Catherine. Oh, you're on. Okay. You know, I just want to reiterate with some people have said that we really, I think a lot of this is premature. It's great. Great brainstorming. But I would like to see an actual survey of the property. An actual map of the property where the property boundaries are, perhaps some sort of study on what, what lives on that property so that we can make sure to protect it. That's it. Well, that's all, that's all great. Thank you so much, Amanda. Catherine. And then Nancy Bruce. Hi there, my daughter was interested on this topic. You want to share. She's a little nervous, but she could hear this and wanted to be sure that on the record that it'd be great to have a playground on the site. And Catherine, that's really important. Catherine, what would you like to see in that playground? What do you what would you like to see in the playground swings and slides. Those would be some really cool ideas and I could also picture, you know, there are a decent number of playgrounds in the area so thinking what's unique about this site and making it a unique playground for this site. So maybe it's an adventure playground or more seesaw. Yeah, yeah, it could be more nature inspired if it's up against the kind of recreational landscape. So, you know, this could be fun for real engagement event with kids, like drawing their ideas and stuff. So, Catherine and your daughter, your daughter is very important to all of us and we appreciate her sharing her thoughts. Thank you for coming right before bedtime so thank you. Yeah. Oh and her animals got something to say to Nancy Bruce. Paul is there. So I don't feel that we captured all the needs of our beautiful little city or town. I feel like we have a small set beautiful segment of thoughts about many amazing things. What I'm concerned about is that we haven't heard about the needs beyond this collective right here and how we might like Rick D. DeAngelis how we might get input from those on the ground for serving the home. That's a great point and we're really turning into other ideas we have 15 minutes Nancy to talk about ideas that aren't part of housing per se or recreation or open space per se. You know what else do we need to be thinking about and it sounds like you're saying we need to think about an inclusive process that reaches out to people who might not come to a public meeting like this but might but whose voice and ideas need to be gathered and more to it than that. Yeah no well yes I mean no thank you you're doing an amazing job and thank you so much. I think I think that 20 or 30 people with ideas of plague you know all the beautiful ideas but I think that there's other ideas so can we pull in thank you can we pull in our local nonprofits our state agency that we pay our tax dollars to and that works so hard can we get their information about what this community needs other than just this small group. Yeah thank you so much Nancy I know this is that the planning commission is going to be as as as Bill said building up a framework for future planning that will engage a lot of those folks but it's a good point to put on the table right now that that that larger inputs important I just want to go to Sally who's next and then other rock and and we've got to think about things that haven't been said yet that really ought to be part of this picture before we start putting out points of vision that we would like to see in the site in the future and we'll talk about that in just a minute but Sally go ahead and then Linda. I'm concerned about a couple of things. One is and I had to be the cynic about this but if the Elks Club couldn't keep sort of country club going. I'm not sure how or why the hub thinks it can but I think that the possibilities and the opportunities are huge. I'm concerned that if we create a whole new housing neighborhood of mixed and affordable rental and purchase housing that it's very distant from the schools and to create a family oriented housing area that is quite distant from the schools is going to put some pressure on on on those very families that would like to live there. So I'm concerned so the creation of a childcare center that is a model for the rest of the state which the capital city ought to have in some form is a possibility or the the and I'm also concerned about the duplication of existing services you have an outdoor pool now. It needs some work and it does have a building that could use some work and the rec center I've always thought is is an opportunity waiting to happen and it's accessible is walkable from the majority of people in town. So I'm concerned that there are a lot of I'm concerned that that we need to be careful that we don't spend a lot of money creating another city outside our city and there we are. Yeah well put Sally thank you very much for sharing those perspectives. Linda your thoughts on issues that aren't that I really aren't under the other topics but that are important to think about as we as we brainstorm future uses of the property. Hi. One of the things that I found lacking in Montpelier is a good theater or musical venue. I don't know if that would fit into a building site like this, but I would love to see that I think it would allow for the space to be used on evenings and would draw tourists into the area. So just my thought. Great. Thank you. Kelly. And then John snow. Yes, thank you. The depth of what we're talking about here is extraordinary. And one of the things that I've been making notes about is how many different deep topics we have that looks like we have seven. And so I would like to put forth the idea that I don't know who's I guess city council create either committees or task forces that would look at each one of these issues I could listen for you if you want in depth so that the environmental piece would be looked at in depth with all of its concerns, transportation, recreation, housing, infrastructure, because that it just is, it's too big. And that's my idea. Great. Thank you so much for sharing that that thought on how things could proceed. John snow. Thank you. I think Sally does strike an interesting chord in that we could potentially be creating a city within a city if you will a large, very viable neighborhood. We've done that in other places around the city as well. And I think that we've lost in the process, our neighborhood groceries and services that that can provide to a neighborhood, and I would love to see as part of this process for the else club that we look at the zoning down on on root to, and make sure that there's the possibility of growing those kinds of support services that are needed. Didi. Um, thank you. Um, I really, really appreciate that last point of john snails about the additional resources, particularly if we're talking about a lot of housing in that area. A couple of things. The activity at the current rec field versus the new X Elks Club. There must be some ability to integrate some of those things that are being envisioned for the Elks Club at the current rec field. There are spaces, not not for everything, but for some of the activities that are being envisioned so I'd like to throw that out. Um, and I also wonder if I don't know what the city is envisioning for the rec center on Berry Street, whether that's usable for anything or nothing. And I'd like to think it's usable for something that might take some space requirements off of the Elks Club. And finally, many people have talked about the natural resources. Well, for the natural for the Elks Club and I, I would like to suggest that the more uses that we add to the Elks Club, the fewer natural resources and wildlife will survive. And I don't think it's realistic to think that we can do all of those uses and also protect all of that natural resource and resources and wildlife. Thank you. Thank you so much and clearly you're pointing to that need of having a comprehensive look at those different resources and how they work together and make that point well made. Thank you. Giovanna and then Susan. We haven't mentioned the educational opportunities of this property. And I do want to put it in the bucket list that I want to make sure we include educators in planning our projects. There's force out there. There's wildlife. There's potential historic resources, archaeological resources. I want to include the North Branch Nature Center as a strong potential partner because they have fewer acres than this property is. And there might be some great synergy. I hate that word, but collaboration between them. So that's all. Thank you. Thank you, Giovanna. Susan and then Lucinda. I also, I kind of got into this conversation before the vote with a concern about property taxes. And I think that we need to look at a balance of how this property, you know, what does this property generate? Does it generate more expenses or does it generate any revenues to the city and how does that work? I think we're going to have to be cognizant of some of us hitting a point where we don't have as much income to spend on property taxes. So I think looking at it in terms of revenue neutrality, maybe. I don't know. I just think it's something we need to really consider. Yeah, thank you. Not just net zero, but revenue neutral or better. Lucinda Lucinda McLeod. And then Sean. I really appreciate the comments about us looking at all our recreational facilities and deciding what should go where. I mean, I too would love to see something happen at the rec center and it would be a perfect spot for an indoor pool. We got the outside and put the pool right there. And, and when I mentioned the skate park, we have sort of a pretty crappy one over off the rec field that isn't maintained well. And it's nothing compared to other communities, but you know, that would be fine. You know, it's just we need to look at everything together. At the same time, we really need to be better about what we do because it's pretty sad. Thank you. Thank you so much. Sean Sheehan. I'll be quicker this time from. Yeah, no, I think, thinking about all the parks linking together. I know this is kind of a way down the road. Visiting probably master plan because of all the private property between but thinking about the way Hubbard Park and North Branch and everything linked together. And think about how you have the roads and the bike path town hill to the, to the north and route to and the bike path to the south, kind of that north quarter across. You know, having the potential. I think it's something I think about and I think on top of that would just be thinking about the impact of wildlife, you know, across the, across the county. When we don't build in Montpelier, you know, the impact that has when people can't move into Montpelier and impact wildlife and surrounding. Yeah, very cool thought. Let's come back to it Sean and share it as a point of vision in a second if you would. Jake go and then we're going to turn a corner again and we got one more piece of work to do before we go. Jake. Thanks. My question is, it's about the role of the hub. And I'm wondering if the city post any documents that they have that describe relationship. And I asked because I noticed at the beginning of the meeting that bill courted about five interests that city people had from a survey from a couple of years ago. And then the hubs. And what their interests were five different things. And so I'm thinking about like, you know, ultimately, who's going to shape, you know, what happens on the property in terms of reputation. So, yeah, to summarize, basically, if the city has any descriptions about the relationship with the hub and any agreements that have been signed. So I'm going to turn that up to have publicly available. Yeah, those should be publicly available. Okay, good. Good point. Thank you. So let's let's turn a corner now. And Mayor Watson will have a minute to share some closing reflections at the end but we have about 15 minutes and what we'd like to do is this exercise where many of the things that you had to say about ideas. What is the vision for what this land was 20 years from now or what could be accomplished. And you could put it in one sentence. And we're not writing a final vision tonight for the future of this parcel, but we could make a bunch of these sentences and actually kind of use them as points of a poll to see if other people agreed with them. But our idea is to reach out more broadly as people have said in a much more inclusive way to other people in the community around the thoughts that could be prioritized tonight. But also, maybe there's some pure sentences that we could put together in just a few minutes for something that we would like to see as essential to the future of this property and Sean was sort of linking towards one. So who would like to raise their hand and be courageous and be the first person to say my vision for the future of this property includes blank or I see a future for this land where blank. And I'm going to start with you, Kelly. Okay, taking a risk. I guess my vision would be this project overall becomes a model. Integrating the human and non human or natural environment. Thank you. Other points of vision for this project. Nancy, you're still muted Nancy. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Process. The future. I hope that our future generations are grateful for what we did with this resource. Thank you. No, regardless of what the current needs for individuals were to meet the needs of climate change and everything coming before us. Thank you. Other other one sentence descriptions of a part of the vision for this. I see a future where Audrey, Audrey Femette. Raise your hand. There you go. Yes, I hope we can go forward with an affordable for the future for recreation and housing and anything we see for the future. It must be affordable for this really small town. It's not a city, we're a small town, you know, with a median income of $45,000. Okay, thank you. Amanda, one sentence point for vision. And then Elizabeth will be next. You're muted Amanda. All that brilliant articulation you're muted through. We still can't hear you. There you are. No, Amanda, you're on the, in the far left hand corner when you scroll down you'll see a microphone that you click on. I'm going to go to Elizabeth Parker until I see you clicked on it. Elizabeth. Is this done. There we go. Go ahead. I vision that we have, I really assessed the capabilities and potential of the property itself and cited housing and other uses for the property property as is appropriate to its capacity. Thank you. Other points of vision. Amanda, you're off you. Oh, yeah. It's not in my left hand corner. Doesn't matter. I just envision a place where it is affordable for people to live here. Okay, it is very unaffordable. The rec center is great. You know, tourism is great. I think we should be focusing on the people that live here and what they need. Okay. Thank you so much. Anyone else have a vision for the future of this site. And it can be. It can be anything from how we work together as a community to get there to how it fits with everything else we want to see for the future. Kathy, do you have a point of vision. And then Susan. And this unseated land that was stewarded by Abadak for generations upon generation becomes a source of inspiration, strong community, homegrown food, accessible and affordable homes, recreation, and deeply respectful interactions between the people who live in go there, the land and all living beings. Thank you, Kathy, not right off the top of your head. That was well done. Susan, your vision. I envision a livable neighborhood of people of varying backgrounds surrounded by land well stewarded and a place where people can lead healthy and happy lives. Thank you so much, Susan Gretchen. I envision ending up somewhere that we got to through an inclusive process where we build a common vision. And so we, we all as a community share that vision and work together to get there. Thank you so much. Fran Dodd. I envision a place where that, which is built for recreation and housing is done in such a way that it will not be dilapidated and become unaffordable in the future. Thank you. I see a future where people who want to live in central Vermont can find a place to live within the city limits, if they so wish, and can have walkable access to community recreation and nature. Thank you so much. Anyone else have a point of vision that they would want to have included? Often done this where we built it like a scorecard and we actually have people review the scorecard and see which points they agree with in the future as part of a process like this and then ultimately add them together as something of a consensus statement. Is there anything else that we're missing that ought to be part of such a vision? I'm not seeing anything. And so I think we've got, you know, I listened to this and this is probably the 500th community meeting I've managed in the last 20 years. It's been rich. I hear a lot of depth and of passion around different aspects of this place, a tremendous opportunity. We all know that there are people who won't afford the facilities, won't afford housing, won't be able to access or be included in this unless we work diligently to ensure that and that that's part of our, the agenda of our times. And we also know that this is going to be an exercise in democracy and that democracy in the world is being tested and that we're all online as members of a community to stand up and participate to the best ability we have to make the best community possible for the future. So in that, I'm very grateful to each of you for participating for putting the power of your own ideas into this mix. And we encourage everyone to be engaged to be participant to work with the city and and help to push things forward that are essential to doing this right. So it's been great to be part of this process. I'm going to turn it to Mayor Watson to share her reflections to conclude the evening. Mayor. Thank you all. And I, again, I want to thank all of you for being here for sticking it out to the end. I really appreciate all of your thoughts and I can speak myself here and say that I heard some ideas that I had not considered and that I think are really valuable and I'm really grateful that people took the time to share those thoughts. And this is also possibly the largest meeting I we've had I mean at our highest point I think I saw we had 155 participants and that is just remarkable. And I would again also encourage everybody to stay engaged and participating in this process and I'm looking forward to the next steps where we can have more information and start to prioritize the things that we've heard and make some decisions. Thank you again to everybody and I think that is it so unless there's anything further you want to say Paul. I guess I'll say the night everybody. If we just say we'll be in touch will be sharing information on the meeting through front porch forum and elsewhere and and there'll be opportunities to reflect and respond to the information on the table. If you do have an idea that comes to you at two in the morning and you want to make sure it's not forgotten. You can email M Smith at Montpelier dash vt.org. That's M Smith at Montpelier dash vt.org. But I think everyone pointed to the need for surveying and there'll be opportunities to lay your ideas in there and. Meanwhile, thanks to the city folks that put this together and to the scribe who's going to have to pull it all together on paper the next day or so. Enjoy the evening everyone. Take care. Thank you. Thank you Paul. Thank you. Thank you for doing this.