 Welcome. And Aloha. Thanks for joining us at Think Tech Hawaii, one of our last episodes of the 2022 year. Hope everybody is moving into what turns out to be a happy and fulfilling holiday season. And we're nearing the end of the Think Tech donation and fundraising period. For all of you who are willing to please click Think Tech Hawaii, go to the donate button and whatever you're willing to help support with would be most welcome. Today we have with us Professor Vernalia Randall, Professor Emerita of the University of Dayton School of Law and the creator and generator of probably the most comprehensive compilation online of articles on race, racism and the law called racism.org commend that lots of really worthwhile reading material on that site and Jeff Courtney, one of our leading First Amendment lawyers, civil litigators, partner at Cades, one of the largest and strongest supporters of nonprofits among the law firms in Hawaii, and that's certainly something to be proud of. And as we hear in Hawaii, you know, Jeff's also been a noteworthy commentator on University of Hawaii sports among his many attributes and a board member and longtime supporter of the Manoa Valley Theater, one of the leading exponents of local theater here in Hawaii. So thank you, folks, for joining us in the thought of maybe ending this year on a little bit higher note than some of the occasions we've had to deal with. What for you folks have been some of the highlights that give us a little bit of light and hope for the coming year and years? Professor Randall? The most pessimistic first. I actually, I tend not to be a best case scenario person. I tend to want to look at the worst case scenario and be pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen. But I have to admit, I've been thinking a lot about Judge Jackson, Supreme Court Judge Jackson, who just, you know, she was just seated this summer, and she's done some stuff to surprise me. And I'm looking forward to her jurisprudence with hope that she will take the same surprise on quality immunity. But a couple of the things that she's done that surprised me, that is outside the normal mode for justices, is her questioning and oral arguments has been, as far as racial issues concerned, to the point on several, in pushing people to think about the impact of a rule that they want to impose, how it would impact minorities. And she's asked questions about, she just recently asked questions about the election law that is going before the Supreme Court, and that tends to want, if the Supreme Court accepts Texas argument, it would allow them to overlook the plain meeting of their Constitution on the idea that legislators have the power to pass laws, and consequently could have passed election laws that are inconsistent with the state's Constitution. Okay. And she asked them, well, then what would prevent them from passing, is it that, well, that I'm thinking of mixing up another instance. She asked them, she said, if the Constitution is supposed to be the Supreme Law of a state, of a country, and the Constitution is what puts in force the legislature, how can the legislature then pass the law that would override the Constitution, state Constitution. On another occasion, she asked them about whether or not the, in a different case, and I'm going blank right now, about how the, whether or not race would be covered, whether or not it was in the case where the people were wanting to discriminate, it was wanting to discriminate against LBGTQ on state law. And she was asking whether that interpretation would allow them to discriminate based on race, which historically the Christian race, the Christians have used race discrimination historically, and it's only been in the last 50 years that Christianity in America overtly steered away from racial discrimination. It was seen as justified by the Bible and taught that way. And then the third thing that she's doing, and this is not particularly overtly related to race, but it's important, and I hope the other liberal justices adopt her, what she's doing. On, on a couple of emergency orders where they deny, deny to stay on an execution, a lot of times the justices just agree or disagree, but she actually wrote out an order. She wrote out a, not an order, an opinion. It was in a minority opinion, but it was an opinion on why she disagreed. That's essential for legal arguments to be, you can argue that the justices disagree with the outcome, but if they don't write an opinion as to why they disagree, then it becomes hard, more difficult to argue the basis of their disagreement. And so I, I'm hoping that she does more of that and that other justices, particularly the progressive branch, the so-called liberal branch, they're not liberals. I just have to put that in. The so-called liberal branch, I hope they would write more opinions. So I'm pleasantly surprised by her. So yes, those are great insights, and we noticed that Judge Shaxson right in her very first week came out strong and took the time in trouble to correct Justice Alito and some of his teammates on the real meaning and intent of the 14th and 15th amendments. Yeah, the original argument that the, that the conservatives like to go to accept when it doesn't support their view of the world. No, that's right. She did do that. So she's been a great surprise for me. Right. And over on the other side of the fence, we've still seen Justice Alito go back to, yeah, but what was happening back 250 years ago in the late 18th century, and that's where we're going to get our meaning, were people really worried about gerrymandering? Well, probably there have been no elections. So it'd be a little hard for that to be a primary concern. And Jeff, some of your thoughts? Well, I think the results of the November elections were more promising than many expected and completed by what happened this week in Georgia. I think the Democrats no longer are beholden to mansion and have enough votes now to do what they need to do without selling out to him. I think the demise of Trump clearly now being acknowledged publicly, and I'm sure privately by the Republican Party. Even though, of course, he was still command 30% of the Republican primary vote. I think his legal troubles have expanded. Dig lead now with the tax conviction of his organization and the finding of additional documents in other locations. So I think there's some reason for optimism. You guys were talking about the court. I think if you're looking for something there, I think it's becoming a little more evident that Barrett and Cavanaugh are in crazies. They may be conservatives, but they're nowhere near where the other two loonies are, and that holds some hope, particularly now in the last argument yesterday on election law, where I think it's pretty clear that those two conservatives are not going to go anywhere near where their two colleagues are willing to go. I think they'll still side probably with a five, four, six, three majority, but I don't think it's going to be what North Carolina legislature in Texas thought, and I think on religious issues, Barrett and Cavanaugh are not going to be helpful, but they're at least willing to listen, and I think holds some hope that maybe some five, four majorities can be cobbled together by John Roberts. You're looking for potential optimism. I'm not saying it's going to happen. But when you look at the other two on the court, there's no hope. So, you know, I think there's some reason for a little optimism. I heard last night that I'm sure this will make the professor very happy that Biden, right after the holidays, is going to announce his attempt to run again. So I mean, that will deflate any possible primary battles, I'm sure, in the Democratic Party. So, you know, are things good? No, but I do think there's a beginning. Emergence, if I can put those two words together, maybe not. Of a kind of willingness on the part of the majority of the public. The fine common ground. That the extremes, both on the right and the left, have lost their luster. There's still, I think, you know, 30 percent on each side, but that 40 percent in the middle is beginning to exercise its will. I think George is a perfect example. So we'll see. I mean, I know you want another part of your two or three, but yeah. But Jeff, I was stuck with two. Jeff, you said that the last time, and I thought about it the whole last two weeks, because I think that's a wrong statement. The fact is, is people are not given a progressive voice in the in the elections and the primaries are controlled by the by the parties in such a way that they can direct, that they can affect the ability of non-typical candidates to be even able to run. And I mean, so I don't think, and if you use Georgia as an example, 70 percent of white people voted for four of white men and 68 percent of white women voted for Warren. What's his name? I can't walk. Walker. And and to me, on in various levels, that is the issue. When progressive, that the majority, even in in so-called liberal states, the liberal white people, the white people who vote for a conservative candidate is a significant portion. And if it wasn't for and this is probably what scares me, but wasn't for the the percentage of non-white people in those states, then it would be even worse. I don't think this is a sign people, the middle, not wanting progressive ideas. It's just a sign of people not giving progressive choices. So how can they want it if they if the only choices they have is a far right wing conservative and a moderate Democrat? Yeah, they're choosing the moderate Democrat when they can when when they consistently have a choice. Look at Seattle. Would look at of a real progressive. They they hear the ideas that progressive put forth and they want those ideas. They are not wanting the middle. They're just given no other choice. Yeah, I think, you know, you and I don't agree on that. And I appreciate your your thoughts. I think the so-called progressive movement is relatively small. And I think it has shown that it does not engender a significant even minority of votes. And I did a lot of traveling this year in the Midwest, and I've also been to San Francisco, L.A., Portland, Seattle. Those cities are a disaster. And I can understand from spending time in those cities and talking to people why people are upset with certain progressive views, which have, in large part, decimated those cities. They are decimated. I was important last week. It's a war zone downtown Portland. The homeless are everywhere. L.A. has eight blocks of continual homeless. San Francisco, if you've been, you can't go to Union Square. Anymore. And then you go to the Midwest and you see what's happening in in smaller cities. Well, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. I just think. You know, I hear what you're saying, but progressives have run in primaries. And some of them don't run that off them. And they don't. I agree. And they don't. They don't. They get set up to move. And having lived in a Midwest civility for 30 years, I tell you how we control homelessness. We criminalize it. We put the people in jail. We did. We say you can't do this. You can't be here. You can't sit here. We we make the sitting things where they can't even sit down outdoors. We make it illegal to give food to people who are hungry. We we we we send the camps as far out from the view of any person's whose eyes would get upset. It's not that all these Midwest cities don't have problems with homelessness. They just have choose to criminalize it and and put people in jail. I mean, it's a choice. No, I was only for me. For me, I would I would I would like to see them be able to do something with homelessness. And I think our part of the problem with homelessness is our views about helping people. They are not high. I want people to get off of drugs. We want people to stop drinking alcohol. We want people to do all these things to prove they deserve help. Instead of saying we want the people in home. We don't care if you drink. We don't care if you do all this other stuff. We want to take you off the street and put you in a home. And then we will provide whatever services you need. But. The Midwest haven't dealt with homelessness in a way that and when we talk about criminalizing homeless, that means it's going to disproportionately affect Black and brown people. Yeah, and I was only using that as a single example of why people may not share. I hate to use the word progressive because it's a large spectrum. You know, of views. But, you know, look, it's not like the country hasn't had. Historically. So called progressive candidate, Henry Wallace ran for president. How did he do? I mean, he was he was about as progressive, quote unquote, he was a socialist. And and, you know, I mean, all I'm saying and I know your view, you have two parties and one tries to get more electoral votes than the other. So you have to pander. And I use that word advisedly to the middle. I don't disagree with that. And I think, you know, you have a shot in some congressional districts for more extreme candidates on both sides. But that's the system. And I don't see it changing. I mean, we've seen a bunch of third party candidates fall on their face over the last 50, 60 years. But maybe you do. I mean, maybe you see an opportunity for. You know, I mean, Trump could run. He's not going to get the Republican nomination. We may have three choices. But I, you know, I don't see the system changing anytime soon, but I do know how to get as the best we can have. And then encouraging people not to think critically of how come the system acts so poorly. I mean, the thing is, is the middle. Who is that? Who is that? People who don't want to be people, people who don't want to educate people. People who don't want to house people. Does the middle really say that's who they are? People who are only concerned about how much taxes they pay. Maybe that is the middle, but. It's a wrong-headed view of how our country should go. I guess it depends where you live of who's in the middle, because I think the middle in Idaho is not the same as the middle in Massachusetts. So I hear you, we've had an engaging conversation throughout the year, which I've really appreciated. And, you know, I listen. If Donald Trump gets in, we won't have a constitution. So there you go. You won't have to worry about the Constitution anymore. And what the meaning of the 14th and 15th Amendments are. And maybe, and I'm saying this, not telling you to Donald Trump, but maybe if there was a direct overt thing, we would have more people who would turn out in the streets violently and say, this is unacceptable. You can't do away with our Constitution. You can't do away with our rights. This. The system. The way the system is set up, the political system is set up. Now it is been moving everybody to the right. So, yeah, when you talk about the middle, the middle has been moved to the right because the Democrats have moved to the right and the Republicans have moved to the right. And there's been no counterbalancing here. I would like to have us. I would put out a suggestion for anybody. I would say one suggestion to to help kind of equalize thing in this system is to have everyone participate in an elect in a excuse me, everyone participate in debates. Publicized national debates. If you want to be a candidate, you can you will be able to participate and you can't be ruled out until the debates happen. And how and and and then how people kind of I don't think you can get an honest opinion of what people want. If people never hear the voices and maybe the voices of people who are really different, people like me, people who say we can have a country that when we were passing people at 90 percent. The the excess tax at 90 percent in the eight seventies and eighties. The we sixty seventies. The economy was better. Maybe we've got to tax people. Maybe the problem we have and this is the. This is the the the left problem is they don't want to tax either. They they and and I I such it's probably as you say is about getting elected and they think nobody. Everybody thinks they're going to be a millionaire or a billionaire. And so when you start talking about taxing even high rich people, they don't keep people don't want that. I I understand that. But it's doable. The and then in our last minute. Oh, it happened really quick. Thanks for bringing up Justice Jackson, Jeff. Any heroes or unsung heroes of twenty twenty two that. Oh, I'm sure there's lots of them, but they're not in the political arena. I mean, there's there's lots of people who have done absolutely incredible things. You know, we could spend hours on all of the people who have involved in issues that are important, I think, to me and to many others. I can't think of any political heroes on either side this year. But, you know, there's lots of heroes out there that are doing great things every single day. And most don't even get recognized. So yeah, there's lots of heroes. And, you know, I mean, if you're looking for one political quote on quote hero. Just look at the Ukraine and Times Man of the Year. That's certainly the singular hero politically. But there are thousands of real heroes that you never hear of that are not in politics. Now, and that's a great point to end on. Certainly first responders in health care. Professor Randall, you've spent years in nursing and you know what it is to go through that first responders in education are teachers dealing with the conditions of the pandemic. All of those first responders to the incredible disconnections and marginalization of people from each other. And all of the people who I mean, you are the first responders. But all of the people who were not considered. People who worked in service industry, but not at that kind of level, you know, people who collect at our garbage and all of those people people who continue to work in restaurants and stuff. And you still do. Yeah. On health people. And that's a great way to wind it up to all of those who helped enable us to get through our daily lives as intact as possible. Our thanks for twenty twenty two blessings. Thank you from think tech Hawaii. Thanks, Professor Randall Jeff. Thank you. Insights and aloha. It's been fun. Aloha. Yes. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and donate to us at think tech Hawaii.com Mahalo.