 For more videos on people's struggles, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Hello and welcome to People's Dispatch. Today, we're joined by software developer and privacy activist Ola Binni, who was released last week, after nearly 70 days in an Ecuadorian prison. He was released after his habeas corpus RIT was accepted. Thank you for joining us, Ola. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Right. So, first, a brief question on your procedure. So, you were arrested detained on the 11th of April. And as journalists covering the case, we have been startled by the kind of procedural gaps that we've seen. So, like you talked before, there were no clear charges. And I believe the last time your bail application came, you were not granted bail because the judge said that there is no estimate of what so-called damage has been caused. Right, because the prosecution had not provided any information about who the victims are. Exactly, right. So, I mean, after 70 days in prison in very difficult circumstances, do you still have any idea exactly why you are being charged? No, absolutely none. This is 78 days afterwards and we have consistently asked from the beginning what I've done, what they think I've done, when I've done it, how I've done it, where I've done it. And they still to this point has not actually said anything about it. I'm still being investigated just under a statute. We've been making this analogy. It's like they're investigating a robbery, but they haven't told anyone what was robbed, who it was robbed from, where the robbery happened and when the robbery happened. So, we want to demonstrate my innocence, but it's very hard when they don't tell me what I've done, of course. And I believe recently there have been, the last week, the Ecuadorian president and the interior minister's testimonies, or two weeks ago, they were also provided. So, could you just tell us what they said exactly and how they contradict what has been going around in the media? Absolutely. So, the president in media, in Ecuador media, has several times gone out and he has talked about me as being a person that broke into computer systems, into phones. He also claimed that there was no training equipment with me in my luggage when I was arrested at the airport. Of course, the latter was completely false because, and we could show that they were easily because the prosecution's documents themselves actually contains a list of all the training equipment I had to go on my training trip. Now, when the president was asked to give his version, give his testimony, he actually said he didn't know anything about the case except for what the minister of the interior had said to him. The minister of the interior has said many different things in the TV and in public announcements. All of these things were completely different from each other. And when she gave her testimony, she also contradicted herself. So, in the public statement, she has also said that I've broken into systems that I was working as part of a conspiracy that had committed crimes to destabilize the government of Ecuador. But in her actual official testimony, she claims that they have no evidence that I have committed any crimes of what so can't what any crimes of any kind. And she also claimed that the reason why I was detained was because they were worried that I might commit crimes in the future. Right. And I believe that recently a government, the secretary to the president was supposed to testify and he has not appeared either. Yes, that's correct. Yesterday, the secretary of the president, Roldan, he was called to give his testimony and he simply did not show up. In fact, something which is completely illegal according to the laws of Ecuador. After the fact that when the Roldan did not show up, the prosecutor issued a new call for Roldan's testimony saying that it was okay if Roldan actually submitted it in a written form. So, this is of course not legal either. But the prosecution was trying very carefully to make it so that Roldan wouldn't be accused of a crime. Right. And the timing of your arrest was also, your arrest happened on June 11th, just a few hours after Julian Assange was also seized from the April 11th, sorry, after he was seized from the Ecuadorian embassy. So, the media was obviously full of reports saying that this was part of a larger campaign. So, could you also talk about, address this claim that your arrest was also part of this larger crackdown against WikiLeaks? Yeah, I mean, that's what they've been saying in media, but officially in terms of evidence, in terms of what the prosecution has actually said, there is no link whatsoever. So, they haven't presented anything officially that we can actually, from a legal standpoint, talk about. This has only been from a political standpoint. And there was also a reference to Russian hackers, so to speak, I think, the minister at some point had made a claim. So, we have not heard anything about that after either. I know absolutely nothing about any hackers in Ecuador. I don't know any Russians, and honestly, I have no idea what they're talking about. In fact, these so-called Russian hackers have disappeared from the public statements as well, and they've never been mentioned in my prosecution either. And there was also references to the fact that the U.S. authorities might seek to question you. So, has there been any development on that? Yes, absolutely. So, I received a notification last Tuesday that the U.S. authorities wanted to interview me. They wanted to send FBI agents and a special prosecutor to talk to me. This request to talk to the American agencies came from the Ecuadorian authorities, and following Ecuador law, I accepted, and I was planning on presenting myself for this interview yesterday, together with my lawyer, of course. However, earlier this week, we were notified that the Americans have actually withdrawn their request to interview me. We don't know if it's going to be rescheduled or if they have lost interest completely in this. But there was no reference to why they wanted to question you either. There was no mention. No reference whatsoever. Right. And it kind of matches the fact that, like, I think you mentioned this before, that in all your 76 days, you're not really been asked a single question also, by the Ecuador authorities. That's completely true. The only question that the prosecution has ever asked me is to provide the passwords for my devices. Except for that, I have never been interrogated. I've never been asked any single questions whatsoever. No interview whatsoever. In fact, I mean, I'm kind of glad to actually answer these questions now that I'm talking to all interviewers and all the reporters, because the reporters are actually asking questions, something that the prosecution is not doing. Right, right, right. Also, to take a step back. So one of, I believe, in the first hearing, one of the bits of evidence, so-called evidence, the prosecution presented was a photo of all your devices. And that sparked a global campaign in which activists across the world also treated what you call photos of their devices, so to speak. So what exactly has been the trajectory of your work over the past couple of years, especially since 2013, when you've been in Ecuador? So for the last 10 years or so, I've dedicated myself to security and privacy. I believe personally that privacy is a human right that is absolutely necessary for democracy to be possible. So my work has been completely dedicated to protect the rights to privacy, protect people's security. I've worked as a, and I work as a security software developer, which means that I basically develop programs that protect people's security. And that's what I did before coming to Ecuador, and that's what I've been doing in Ecuador as well. So do you at some level also see that the sort of, shall we say, mystery around privacy and cryptography is also being used to victimize you in some senses, because the general understanding of the concept is in some senses so low. So would you talk to me? I don't know. I don't know if it's a mystery, but I do think that there are governments in the world that go after people that work for human rights. Some governments do not think that I find this very strange, but sometimes it feels like governments don't actually believe that their citizens have human rights. And to me, since working on security and privacy is working on human rights, you could make an argument that maybe a reason why I'm being persecuted is because I'm working for the rights of citizens. But we have no indications of this. We just know that this is what happens in many places around the world. Exactly. And for instance, how would you also define the need for privacy and for that matter in the larger sense also, as far as residents are concerned? People not common people are concerned. In the larger sense, like I just mentioned, privacy to me is fundamental for democracy. If you don't have privacy, then you don't really have the possibility to make up your mind. We know that when people are being surveilled, they actually change their opinions based on what they think the surveyor wants them to think. So that means that when people are on the surveillance, they are not actually free to choose. And freedom to choose is exactly what is necessary for democracy to function. If you don't have freedom to choose, that means that you're actually living in an authoritarian regime. So to me, freedom, freedom to choose is necessary. Privacy is necessary. Security and safety is necessary. And protecting these values are necessary for modern democracies. And you also, while you were in prison, you've written a couple of letters. One of them, of course, was to the president. But you also wrote a letter about the conditions in prison in Ecuador, talking about how it was something that people need to think about. So could you also talk a bit about that? Absolutely. I'm very disturbed and very sad about the state of prisons. My own stay was in El Inca, which currently had around 2,400 inmates. In a prison, actually, that was created and built for less than 1,000 inmates. In my specific cell block, there were 95 inmates when we had the most inmates. And there were 17 cells, 17 beds for 95 people. In my own cell, we were staying about eight people. I was sleeping on the floor for about a month because we didn't have any space. There is very little sanitation. There is no clean water. There is no hot water. There is no water at all most of the days. People were sick all the time. There was a lot of violence, of course, in this environment. You couldn't go out and see the sunlight for more than a few hours per week. Visitation and communication was very, very restricted. As far as I know, this is completely inhumane. And a modern country like Ecuador should not treat its citizens this way, no matter what crimes they have committed. So also, I have one more question on surveillance and our privacy for that matter. So we are also seeing a global, in some senses, a global war against whistleblowers, against people who release information that the public has the right to know. So how do you see the path forward for people working in this area, especially in the area of secure communications, in the area of people who would like fewer secrets, so to speak? Yeah, I mean, for me, people doing journalistic work are absolutely necessary. They are necessary for everything we do. Another fundamental right of democracy is that if you are not informed about what's going on, of course, you cannot make clear choices. So journalists are crucial to this. And to me, what we are seeing is a crackdown of journalism. We're seeing that the only journalism that is allowed to exist are the ones where they report what the governments tell them to report. But investigative journalism, more journalism that is differing in some ways, are being more and more cracked down on and persecuted in different ways. I think that this is really worrisome, and it infringes on the rights of the citizens of the world to actually know what is happening. And we need to protect against that and fight back against that, of course. Exactly. And the final question, so what is the legal strategy ahead for your team in terms of what would be the next couple of months? Well, as I've said before, it's very hard for us to demonstrate my innocence, because they haven't told us what they've done. But we'll continue to do that. My 90 days, the first 90 days of what's called the Instruction Fiscal, the investigation, is going to be up in two weeks. And after that, the prosecutor has to present something. We sadly expect that they will plant evidence on my devices, and we are preparing for this eventuality. And of course, we're going to be able to technically prove that they've planted it. But sadly, they might try to do that anyway. Our hope is that the prosecution will realize that there is no case. They have absolutely nothing, and that they will shut down the investigation without going to trial. But sadly, it's possible that we will go to trial, and we will of course continue to prove my innocence at every single step of the way. And outside of that, we're focusing on the current aspects of the legal strategy, which is to continue proving my innocence and defend against planting of evidence. Right. And you also received, there's been a global movement of support in your favor from activists across the world, especially from the free software and privacy sectors also. Yes, it's been a fantastic support. The support I've received from inside of Ecuador, the support I've received internationally and from Sweden, has been absolutely outstanding and very heartwarming. There's been so many organizations, organizations like the UN, the European Union, and of course the working groups inside of the UN for against arbitrary detention, the special rapporteurs against torture for freedom of expression, the special rapporteurs for against arbitrary detention, APC, Article 19, SWETSA, EFF, and many, many, many more organizations. And I am so grateful to all of them. And I know that without all the support, I would probably still be in prison. Right. Thank you so much, Ola. We hope your struggle for justice continues and reaches a successful end. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. That's all we have time for today. Keep watching People's Dispatch.