 Thank you everyone. Thank you for being part of Entrepreneur India's Resilience series. Today's topic of discussion will be the coming of age of our friendly neighborhood grosses. I am Saurav Kumar, editor special projects entrepreneur India, the moderator for the session. Let me start by laying down the ground rules for our attendees. The discussion will go on for 45 minutes and that will be followed by a 15 minute Q&A session. If you have any questions during the course of the discussion, you can post it through the Q&A option at the bottom of your screen. Or if you're live on Facebook, you can post your questions in the comment section. In your question, mention if it is directed towards any specific panelists. We'll take up the questions for the discussion. So let me introduce our panelists for the day. Mr. Anand Kumar Bajat, MD and CO, Pehnya Bai. Mr. Karthik Venkateshwaran, CO and co-founder Jambotail. Mr. Bhairav Domkondwar, CO and founder, Better Capital. Welcome everyone. So let me put out some numbers here. We were mentioning about Nielsen. According to Nielsen, there are around 12 million piranhas stores in India, around 1 million wholesalers. And the retail industry size is around $650 billion. These are big numbers. But for some reason, they get lost or overshadowed by the online grocery numbers or the limelight that we see. But during these current pandemics, these neighborhood friendly grocers really turned out to be our lifelines. So I'll first start with your initial thoughts on what was your experience during this period. And then maybe if we can go ahead. So Anand, if I can start with you please. Thank you so much for hosting this session. It's a great opportunity to talk about the retailing in India. We believe that 8% of India, we come from FinTech background. I am a banker, ex-banker, 17 years, owning five patents in my world. But we realize that banking to be taken to the common man, it is best through a trusted nearby retailer. It should be done. Five years ago when we started this journey at Paynearby, we realized that retail is evolving. Retailers are not. And I need not explain but for punctuating, I would say that the online pride of the e-commerce had come. The dark store-based deliveries had come where consumers are getting their products what they want. But leaving behind in the bargain the mom and pop stores, what has happened already in US, UK, Europe, the mom pop stores have vanished. And hence it was imperative for us to look at how do we ensure that the retailers survive in their business so that we can survive in ours. Because our business is about assisted digital financial service. Clearly there is 8% of India which is super digitized on payments. And they are self-serviced digital savvy greedy segment who have debit credit card, net banking and have the PNW and the A of the world on using the digital payments. But the remaining 92% of India goes to the retailer Kirana once or twice or twice a month. And which is where we thought that we will augment the existence of the retailer. And harness his credibility. He is already a trusted corner shop. The COVID what it has been able to do is highlight his existence there. The sleepy quiet neighborhood store who would say no for most of the things most of the time. Today commands. Premium man is able to help us all survive. Fact that what we say that what in the soldiers working on the war front doctors in hospital don't miss these Kirana store partners working on the store front to help us all survive with our basic grocery essentials. A great amount of work being done by jumbo tails and other people who are doing the supply chain assessment assistance to these Kirana. Otherwise the Kiranas could not have been getting all the supplies so easily. Our endeavor has shown good results about a million retailers who are registered with us four and a half lack active monthly. They assist the citizen to do 2 kilo aloo 1 kilo page or 500 rupees cash. You have been able to merge compact the banking exposure to a ATM also at a Kirana store and you don't need to know venture out into two exposures in the COVID sensitive environment. And you can go to the same Kirana store. The fact that government gave out direct benefit transfers it reached the bank accounts of the Miss Bank India because these accounts had a card. The cards were not working. These cards and bank accounts were with a bank branch but the bank branch for 20 kilometer away. But who was closest to them is the retailer nearby. And hence they were able to go to the Kirana store and tell him. The prime minister spoke about it. The finance minister madam spoke and the governor is a bank spoke about the business correspondent model. Now we have seen a tremendous search and with few partners like jumbo tail or all of them have come and collaborated with us. Trying to make all their stores augment this with additional service feature that we have built as a stack. So as a platform now with a compact risk engine around payments and with API stacks open to bring in more partners on one side and the railroads in 17000 pin codes of India with five lakh active retail touch points. We have a network so a platform and a network is very very difficult to build but it took us four years of 700 members at 10 year by and now it is available as a partnership handshake. Anyone could come and just collaborate on this platform and then railroads are available in the hinterlands of the country. So Kirana will evolve and we work very closely with Mr. B. S. Nagesh of train the trust for retailers and retailers associates with retail association of India Kumar Raj Gopalan. They are all mentors a very well meaning people for the industry. And I'm sure many of you I would like to hear whether when Karthik also talk about their work. Yes. So you know we'll talk about collaborations definitely because that is something that we are seeing across what it was especially in this situation. So we'll come to that later but you know I'll come to Karthik first and you know the same question that I started with you know what has been your like obviously you know there was a traction before even when COVID hit you know in the details space but definitely things would have seen so what was your observation what has been your observation. I'll keep the introductions about jumbo tail rather short and focus on the real topic here which is the local grocer right. So number tail is a India's leading new retail platform. We aggregate Kirana stores on our platform. We provide a full stack of services across end to end starting from initially we started from you know providing them a marketplace access to all of their suppliers across all brands across you know all the top FMCG brands market staples even market producers and we have our own full stack supply chain. We do thousands of storefront deliveries every day. And with our J24 stores. We not only modernize their supply chain and whatever we offer. We also brand the Karana stores with our J24 branding. It's a co branding model. And you you get in store technology point of sale. It's a it's it's suit of services software for augmenting the demand side of the Karana stores. So jumbo tail platform takes care of the supply side. The demand side of the Karana stores how they connect with their end consumers. These stores are integrated with swiggy dunzo flip card technology integrations on the local model. These stores are financial integrations with you know some lending providers and also we solve for aspects like home delivery for the Karana stores. So now still a healthy percentage of stores orders come via phone calls and we help them solve for it through our software stack we through our trading and it's a full suit of transformation of the Karana store. Our fundamental hypothesis has always been that India's 98% of the market flows through the mom and pop stores. Mom and pops are essential so much so that our company tagline is J Jawan J Kisan J Dukan. We have taken one step forward and recognized the importance of a Dukanda in the whole ecosystem. He is the economic engine. Right. And we want to transform this country's retail in a massive manner inclusive manner by transforming these millions of mom and pop stores in ways that was not possible a few years ago using technology using internet mobile phone adoption 4G infrastructure and infused big box tools. Whether it's AI driven merchandising plan or whether it is like simple insights like you know if you put white lights. Our data says that stores with white light sell much more than stores with yellow lights or no lights. Right. So even these simple insights transform an income of the Kirana stores much better. So our goal is to put the Kirana store and the store owner in the center and be an increasing part of their journey. Helping them with the demand side finance side. So we have a fintech platform that connects all the lenders and get them working capital asset credit and then we are also branding them. So it's a it's it's it's our we are the friend of the Kirana stores. We help them transform and we help them, you know, serve the people and through these people. We are aggregating consumer demand. We have never lost focus of that because for us getting to Kirana store is the fastest way of aggregating consumer demand and helping them getting the fastest way of aggregating consumers to the Kirana stores and therefore being able to understand what the consumers want. And because ultimately the consumer has to consume everybody is a channel right if you don't help the Kirana store sell more to the consumers, you're not going to be able to help him. There is only so much you can do to increase this, you know, it decreases cost. You have to increase his demand fundamental. You have to make him competitive in this ever competing world you have to make him ready to face the consumer needs as per aspirations we found that most of the, you know, the J24 program is a result of our deep research ethnographic research on the end consumers. We asked a simple question. Why did the Kirana store not die. Everybody took it for granted right we didn't take it for granted we said what are the underlying conditions in which why you didn't die. And one of the key reasons that emerged and we saw that in some of the behaviors that we saw on the ground is that most Kirana stores had a personal relationships with the people around them and the people around them stayed for 10 years 15 years in the same locality. And therefore, more than the Manjunatha stores Manjunath was more important. Right. But we saw a very, very interesting behavior the Kirana stores no longer wanted to give credit to their consumers. This is again something that we took for granted right when we went to the J24 program and we went to the lending solution. The store said sir we're not wanting to give credit anymore. So what we grew up with is no longer the case and we asked them why is it consumer mobility. They said these people stay for one year, two years suddenly they vanish. I don't know where they go and I can't absorb. So he's a guy who will not have to absorb. Then we went to the millennials they asked so they are ultra mobile population. They want to go from one place to another place. And then they want to retain relationships with brands not individuals. This is very important point right what allowed the Kirana to survive the onslaught of the biggies so far may not be the case. If we don't encapsulate what a Kirana stands for under a brand and make it ubiquitous. And that's why the J24 program. Right. So the demand is changing not the demand patterns are changing the people who are interacting with them are no longer connecting with the owner. They're connecting with some brands some identity and that is how they identify themselves and they are ultra mobile. They want to when they move from one locality to other locality the biggest consideration is the things that I love and I feel is it available. That is how they even choose the residential as they go into next. Right. So if this is ever changing this is the trend that we see then we saw that there's an important tool that we need to weaponize these woman pops. We need to give them what they don't like today what they don't have today. So the local grocer continues and will continue to be an important part of the entire economic world of this country. No questions asked. But he requires help in ways more than bits and pieces. It's a full stack. And you need to create it. You need to create a minimum viable ecosystem. And that's what we are doing at jambotec. I will elaborate more questions. Yeah, of course. And, you know, I'll come back to you. Definitely. You know, we talked about that we need to empower them. So I'll come to you. So, you know, you have investments in the kind of, you know, people who are empowering, you know, Kirana stores and from very young. I mean, ever since I mentioned that, like, in my, in my area, Mundo was more important than Kirana store was. Secondly, you know, we know Mundo that, you know, we go there for everything we wanted. And so that was the relation that we had, but somehow that was getting lost somewhere. And I think you found you found value in it. And that's why you bet on it. So what's your observation about, you know, the emergence of Kirana right now? Yeah. So, you know, let me take a zoomed out view of it, right? So essentially, you know, I run better capital, which is pre seed and seed stage one. As an investor, as an early stage investor, you know, my job really is to identify a segment that I feel there can be innovation in. But I also have to sort of go five years ahead, five, 10 years ahead, kind of see what my evaluation of a trend is. Imagine the future and then come back and say, you know, how do we solve for that future, right? So I think the fundamental thing for me, and I've lived in the West for a very long time and grown up in India. So you can see the differences and you sort of, I was probably the first customer of Amazon from the 1996 days. Let's say so very, very early books, only days, right? And I think if you look at, you know, where Amazon has come, I think that convenience has become ubiquitous. You know, when they said next day delivery, we were already happy, but we didn't know as customers that we could be happier. But with the few hours sort of a delivery, they've made us even happier and made our experience even stickier and things like that. And we said, wow, this is amazing. Well, you know, if you look at India, we always had the two hour experience to our neighbor of shops. And we've always had it, right? So when I looked at it as an investor, and I think when you use, when you have the Amazon slip cards and everything's of the world, and what they are, you know, you know, we are 1.3 billion people, US is 350 million people, right? Very, very sparse, we are extremely dense, so just completely different demographic. We already had, let's say, our two hour, for example, 20 minute thing as well for one item. It just that, you know, it wasn't complete, it wasn't, it was broken a little bit or whatever, right? And so that's why we had this other view which said, oh, I'm just going to create a new experience for my users, right? And when I looked at it, I felt like, wow, you know, this is going to take hundreds of millions of dollars of investment to reinvent something that is already working to a certain extent, right? I have the barber shop, I have the grocery store, I have the real estate agent around the corner, I have everything around me, right? Now, and this is, you know, serving 1.3 billion people, right? We have this happening at every nook and corner of India. So do I, as an investor, believe in the future that oh, some completely new company is going to blanket all over India with a billion dollars of investment and solve for that experience, right? Do I do that or do I just say, hey, you know, I think the infrastructure is already there? I just want to enable it. I want to enable payments. I want to enable supply chain. I want to enable marketing. I want to enable customer service. I want to enable them to run their business better, right? So, you know, at better capital for across segments, including this, we basically said we are going to bet on the enablement of India that is actually working. The Kirana store guy is extremely sharp. You know, you cannot throw technology at him if his business does not benefit, he will throw technology away, right? So we are building for that person and you will get your PMF like that, right? Because he is the hardest buyer you can get to, right? So I think that's where our investments have been, right? So I think Karthik mentioned about supply chain. I think that's a very important part. We've invested in a company called Shop Kirana that is solving the supply chain problem better than anybody else in the markets that they operate. Going super deep and solving the problem. I think we were talking earlier about choice, right? Do the Kirana stores constantly have to say, yeah, brand name, how do I solve for that? How do I introduce new brand? Why do I get my customer to have to drag down to a nature's basket or something like that to get that new brand? Why can't that be stopped in my thing? So I think that's the supply chain that let's say a Shop Kirana is waiting, you know? If you look at a Kata book, you know, he's actually saying that you are actually stretched and you're not able to scale. Let me just solve it for you through technology. And I think the adoption they're getting is because they are actually solving the problem. The cash flow is improving. They can see it happening, correct? So I think that's one big trend of enabling. I think we have to enable. We have to enable. We cannot reinvent what is already working, right? That's one. And now I think if we talk about what has happened in the last four months, right? Across sectors, but I think specifically about grocery and produce and things like that. I think we have hit, you know, I don't know if you guys have seen the U.S. e-commerce growth during the pandemic. They basically grew in these four months. The growth, right? The percentage growth was what they had in the last 10 years. Right? It is unbelievable. And I am sure I'm sure we just don't have that kind of granular data. I am sure if we look at how Indians, 1.3 billion Indians have bought foods, vegetables and atta around all of India in the last four months, we'll see the exact same thing, right? And I think that's a clear inflection point that I'm going to learn from. Karthik is going to learn from. Anand is going to learn from, right? And it's incredible because, you know, in my world where I'm investing pre-product market fit, I'm investing in an idea, right? And what do I really need? I need my users to just try, right? These four months, believe me, we have made people try everything. I mean, how many people use Zoom four months before? I mean, 90% of India didn't even know what the heck Zoom was, correct? So I think there's just incredible learning that is happening. And it is a period of incredible experimentation because my user is telling me every single day more than what I would have learned in the last two years, right? And now what is happening is that, you know, as an investor, I'm like, hey, you know, we always talked about the supply chain, the farmer supply chain, right? Like I was telling you earlier, I have gotten the best capsicum, red and yellow capsicum downstairs, delivered downstairs that I've ever bought from anybody online. No brand, no brand, right? So what is a brand, let's say, right? The brand is, you know, what delivers the experience of quality and everything. The thing is this came directly in a brown bag from the farmer, right? So now if, but I agree with Karthik's point about long-term brand association. Now my question is, is there a D2C brand which says, hey, you know, I'm going to give that capsicum. I'm just going to package it better, put my brand and make sure this lasts beyond the pandemic, right? So I think we have an incredible opportunity around the buying behavior change that we have enforced or the pandemic has enforced. And I think a lot of us, I mean, there's a lot that a lot of challenging times for everybody. But I think we have all experienced what we probably didn't give a chance to, right? So I think we are all, I think, established companies like Jumbo, Tail Shop, Kirana and Peer in Urbaya are going to innovate. I think Anand gave a great example of cashback. You know, I did that all, you know, growing up. I mean, all my professional career was in the San Francisco Bay Area and we'd always get 20 bucks at Safeway. Always, right? Now imagine if that happens and I think then what happens to ADM, right? So I think this is incredible, right? I think you're all learning and I think, you know, we'll touch upon more details as well. But that's the view I have as an early stage investor, right? I think it's an incredible time for experimentation and learning. Absolutely. So, you know, Viva, you talked about, you know, capsicum. Now, capsicum is something, you know, I think the example that you gave, does it really hold true for, you know, other items as well? Like, you know, Karthik was saying that a brand association is necessary. Now that maybe is necessary for other things. You know, maybe an atta, maybe oil, especially that oil that we use, you know. So a capsicum is a different thing, but when it comes to oil or dal maybe, you know, because we know that. So do you think that holds true for across or it's like different for different SKUs? And also the thing that I won't want to know is that, you know, about the SKU keeping for retailers, how do we solve that issue? Like, at least I have observed that that though the local Kirana stores were able to supply to whatever my need was, but they were able to supply atta. But they were not able to supply Ashirvada atta, maybe or the XYZ atta. So that was the change that I have made because out of compulsion and not because of my choice because that was available to me at that point in time. So if you can, you know, talk about that maybe. So I think there are there are three questions in there. I quickly talk about all three and I love to get the answer as well. But I think look, I think when we talk about the capsicum right now, going back to what Karthik was saying earlier, I think it is about my experience. My experience was great. My experience was great. The product was great. Right. Now it didn't happen earlier when the capsicum was probably around Pune where I live. Right. So how do I solve for that problem for that to be long lasting? Because to be honest, I benefited and the farmer benefited as well. Right. So if if if all parties benefited, we really want a solution to long last longer. Right. So I think there are new generation companies who are coming up who are understanding this in specific segments. You're absolutely right that every segment of product can, you know, we'll have different solutions. Right. But, you know, this is a, in fact, there is an investment we just announced in a company called V grow, which is targeting the exotic fruits and vegetables market, which actually has a lot of demand supply disconnect. Right. And they will, they will solve my problem, but they will also solve the problems of every others who are who are consuming the exotic foods and vegetables. So I think we will have these, you know, can I expect the farmer to from tomorrow start to say, boss, this is my new supply chain. No, I don't think so. I think that's a little far fetched. I think we'll get there. But, you know, there will be companies like we grow who will basically say, look, I can do it for you. Right. So I think we'll see a lot of that happening. Now, coming back to the next question, which is that well, art is not the same. I mean, capsicum is not the same as art or oil. Right. Which is where I think the brand association does come in. It will be very important and it will continue to stay. Now, the question you had was, you know, but he does not carry it. So I'll just go back to big basket or wherever I was doing it from right now. I think that's a question we all have to answer because now the consumer has said that if I actually buy, if you actually have it, I'll continue to buy it because, you know, I actually really like it. Right. Because even that little conversation I have with you, it's a much more human experience where we are actually enjoying even that. Like one of my friends in New York said, you know, my experience, my, my connection with the outside world is the Amazon delivery guy. So I think we have come to appreciate all the little things in life. Right. So what I'm saying is if jump hotels in shop Kiranovs of the world say that, look, I'm going to solve that problem now. You want Azure, right? Your customers by Azure, let me figure that out. Now that becomes a data and supply chain problem. Correct. And I think while it is not a trivial problem, it is a solvable problem. It is also not something that we can just blanket a solution and solve it in a day. I think it will, it will have its cycle. It will be region. There will be regional players. Somebody might work at scale in South India. Somebody might work in Madhya Pradesh or something like that. Right. But I think it's a supply chain problem. They're already company solving it. And, um, and, and coming back to my equation, I think, um, can, can, can 200 million users buy our Sherwa data online? Or can I solve the supply chain problem to have, you know, 500 million people buy it from a local. So I think the second is an easier problem to solve, less expensive and much more efficient also. So I think that's my view. Okay. Yeah, I want to represent the point of view of the brands. Uh, you know, there is, uh, brands are able to reach the consumers. There is, there is one of, I'm having a quality product and I may be able to efficiently get it to the consumers. Why are these Kenana stores? Right. Most of the brands had a distribution system that relied on very physical infrastructure, even though it is very low cost infrastructure, but it was like a physical distributor taking up, uh, no digital. They are the salesman will go and take an order every, every week once. Uh, COVID and then they deliver it two days later. Right. COVID undermined any such system that relies on a manual way of actually building a business. Uh, actually undermined every business where even technology companies who have raised hundreds of millions of dollars of funding, they have even scaled using manual manpower to increase their GMV. Right. Even they got screwed. Right. So they're basically everybody who was relying on a man visit physically visiting a shop or a, or a, and then creating the demand is, is God is thrown out of the window right now, at least temporarily. So now in the absence of which now the Kenana store is having a problem, right? And, uh, you know, since you go to go ITC, ITC at one of the best distribution systems in the country, and if their salesman are not able to reach the mom and pops. Now there are alternative platforms like Jumbotail, maybe shop Kirana and, you know, every other procurement platform in the world. Uh, that, that has this ability for the Kirana store to open the app and place the order becomes a viable channel. Right. So the, at least the demand information is getting transmitted to an entity which has deep relationships with the brand. Now we are able to open the pipes for any brand, but then this pipe is democratic pipe. It is not an exclusive pipe. It is not owned by a particular brand. So now the beauty of this pipe says that the pipe is democratized. Now let's fight on quality. Right. So if you have the same quality product at a cheaper price. Now remember of all the people, the only person who is capable of pushing a brand is the Kirana store. He has the personal relationship of saying, ma'am, sir, yeah. Now he has got the debility. Now when you make that margin profiles available to you no longer spend on your, there's a high quality product that is giving him higher margins. And especially in this pandemic, he is looking for higher margins because if the stop line has fallen. He has to look for higher margins on a slower top line to cover his cost. Right. So therefore he's looking for higher margins and there is a brand saying I'm having high quality product. I'm not spending on random TV advertisements about the line and all that stuff. So I'm giving you all of my channel margins to you. Now you sell. Now it's a double whammy for an established brand. The brand we have seen in our experience that there are brands that still stand the ground in this. People don't buy. Even if we have seen it from our consumer shopping experiences in our J24 stores, we know how the shelf gets empty, what kind of action. There are still some brands, but then there are many brands that have come across as pretty replaceable. Purely today based on availability. So a Mari biscuit is people are okay. A Bourbon biscuit. People are okay. But then if you look at, they say Maggie, people will still have a choice, but we have still seen even number three, number four player, like a very, very four player. Maggie noodles, noodles, instant noodles have started selling. That's because people are looking for instant noodles, right? Consumer preferences are changing in places where consumers are really, really like, let's say one of the biggest trends that we are observing is something called a cooking fatigue. So we are observing that consumers are now getting tired of cooking, right? And even it becomes a chore. They just don't want to do it. And therefore they are choosing any and every ready to eat product that can fly off the shelf. We are actually seeing it on the ground, right? So in that case, in all of your instant noodles, even a number four player, so long as he's able to just push it through the democratic pie and put it in the shelf, he's winning. Even we have seen personal care, personal care, like people don't want to go out and shop today. Most of our J24 stores are located very close to the customers and some of them are located inside the apartment complexes, right? The communities are preventing any apartment movement outside inside of the apartment complexes. In those places, we are seeing even personal care choices being changed. Like I'm using a lifelong soap and I'm willing to try a new soap just because it is available. So what it has created a temporary condition in which a lot of trials will happen purely based on availability. Right? Somebody is not able to supply and somebody is able to, is having a surplus stock and he's able to push, right? And that demand information is with us platforms. I know that X demand is there for like say 100,000 packets of instant noodles. I'll transmit this information to everybody who's over is actually filling up my warehouses or even willing to supply the demand. They get a preferential shelf access because just purely because it's available. I don't want the shelf to go empty. So in this case, they're getting a good environment for trial. But I also think that brands will come back. The greatest example, again, going back to Maggie, right? They were off the market for nearly like one year because of some, you know, this thing, right? Still, within three months, they were back up to the same market share. We saw it. So therefore, if you really have a great brand, if you really have invested your last 20, 30, 50 years in building that brand. I think you can really, you know, win. But if you have introduced brands into the pipe, purely because of your power distribution, not because of the power of quality. So I have a great auto brand and retailer. You say, if you don't take my biscuits, I won't give you my auto. And if you built your brand using those kind of arm-twisting techniques with your retailer. Now the retailer is going to come back like that, you know, mad elephant and say, boss, I'm going to kick you off. Right? And then you are augmenting the retailer, enabling the retailer with these platforms. So now I think the consumer is benefiting. The consumer is now getting access to product number one. Number two, he's getting access to quality products. He's not like something is not there in the shelf, not because, you know, he's not able to reach him. That that reach has been democratized. This is what my point is, right? So six months from now, would we see all the top branches get wiped out and purely availability guy will win? No. The consumer is very, very clever, right? He will come back to the noodles that he loved. He will come back to the biscuits that he loved. But today he's playing on availability and you have a fair chance. The life has given all of the challenger brands a fair chance. Before I go to Anand, I'll request my attendees again, you know, keep your questions coming. We'll take it later. And so what's your observation in this thing we are discussing? You know, people will go back to brands or this is just a chance for newer brands to make a space for them. So it may be a smaller pie that they will gain or what has been your experience with your with your piranha stores. See, I agree with Karthik. The retailer has a great liver to promote what he wants to. And it is a trade off very clearly between the trust that he has and the margin that he can earn extra on unbranded or a branded lesser known product. And of course, Maggie is Maggie. No one can compensate. I would not delve down anything other than Maggie. Likewise for Coke, I wouldn't take the other black drink down my throat. I would go thirsty, but if Coke is not available, I would walk out. Likewise, I hear from Srinivas Fatak of Unilever that certain cosmetic products people would not want to experiment on their face if it is coming on a cheaper price. But let's talk about essentials. And that's where I agree with both what we have said and Karthik said that ultimately, the essentials are important. Suddenly, the world is realizing that just because you are not buying non-essentials, there is global crisis. Because people have come back to buying normal stuff and surviving on the basics, there seems to be a crisis world over. Dal, atta, chawal, khana kaafi nahi aap ke liye, aapko kyu jada drama chahiye. Simple cheeja saamne aare hain, important also, greed and fear, two things drive. I was telling at the Global FinTech Forum yesterday, greed has done its round, the cashback scenarios. Now the fear is driving opportunities for new things, new entrants to attempt. The things that I can take from a nearby store versus a delivery boy coming, I don't know where he is coming from. At least my area, my nearby, my neighborhood is hygienic and I rely. I trust, but I don't know the biker who is coming, where he is coming from, whom all has he visited. Whereas I can have a little more surety at my nearby retailer. That said, Vabha highlighted that the retailers have been augmented now. I know the name of my retailer. Many people have said this. I know of 4 lakh retail partners who serve as digital pradhan on our platform. And I like what you know, Karthik said that Jai Dukan, Jai Dukan, Jai Kisan, Jai Dukan. We say Har Dukan, Digital Pradhan. Our intent is something of the digital enabled to all our 50 lakh retailers in the country and we are at it. Now that said, how wonderful it is a scenario there. I don't need to go and paste a QR sticker. I am able to do it through digital outreach. I have four and a half lakh active retail partners on the ground, doubling up as a gig economy partners to me. I run surveys with them. I do a lot of things through them on the nearby stores. So the growth is automated on the ground. Every store is able to touch base with 10 next door retailer and get data for Sidney lending. Imagine, why would I need to go and download an unknown app and then fill my data there? Much rather my next door neighbor partner retailer is asking a farmer retailer, do you want loan? I will help you. Again, to take on Karthik's point, there is a lot of I think commonality in the approaches that we are seeing here, that the digital supply chain connectivity is imperative. What we have established at Payneer by is that there is a grocery purchase app for consumer which fires order to the retailer. And these are not SDK convertible. So we are working with Icebird. We are working with Niti, I hope to see that if we can give this to the structure store format and let people buy directly from the structure stores using the online ordering. So either you have a order side in your control or you have a supply side augmented with your tools. Giving out API is a great way to go forward and we are as a platform now, like I was saying in the beginning, exposed our APIs working with NPCI both on payment and non-payment modules to give out the APIs. So as a platform, we do believe that more and more business would come to our retailers without occupying shelf space. There are wood and the Ullu and the hot stars which are getting now integrated on the platforms to sell through the same Kirana. Two kilo aloo, eight kilo piyaj, one month's hot star. What not can you bring on the platform? So it's a matter of collaboration, like I said in the beginning. And I think the fact is very different on where you sit in Pune or you in Bangalore or I in Mumbai and sort of where you stay. It's a very different world that we are in. Oh, Delhi, all right. Very different world. I am connected to the roots. As we speak, I am coordinating for my brother and father to get discharged from hospital after suffering from COVID. The challenge is that like we said about the eulogy for the retailer, there are fertilizer distribution companies who are working with the fertilizer shops on the ground. Because if they do not distribute fertilizer and government seed, the next crop will not come and the pandemic will have a very different element. So we come from a family of contribution and dedication to the nation. So my dad and brother both caught COVID because of this, because they had to supply the seed. The reality on the ground is that it's a time bomb. If you know of Vihar, if you know of Bengal, the rich man's disease who can afford isolation has gone down to a level which is poor man's disease who is not deemed as stupid. Argumentatively, they cannot afford isolation and it is not blasting out. There is a fearful scenario on the ground and I think we all must solve for seeing how digital, like Nandan was telling yesterday in the Global FinTech Forum with Naveen Surya and Billy Passway, that how do we solve for digital payments on a feature phone? How do we digitize it for a non-smartphone user? Is what Karthik and Pani are by, we will solve. We will work on seeing how things can be done there. There is a huge amount of work and like I said, someone was telling me that five years hence this will change. And I told him if you get scared with the announcement of a large platform and shit breaks for five years, nothing will change. But what you do in the five years of gap period will change the trajectory. So don't look at what the announcements are coming. Look at heads down, continue doing your work because this will uplift and take off the market very differently. So don't be fearful of a payment company announcing 200 startups shut down the day someone in Noida announces something. That's what he did. Stand up and do your thingy. Don't get scared. People will come, people will go. And like Karthik again to your point very wonderfully articulated that delivery order taking is becoming difficult. And hence at Pay Nearby we have integrated order taking even in our app. So you can actually press button and order Coke, Pepsi or whatever you have. Unilever products and it goes to the nearby supplier. We will be happy if we can pipe it into you and you can supply to all our retailers. This is collaboration probably. Thank you very much. I love all the ideas and collaborating live on a national platform like this. I think collaboration is a way forward. I mean, I've been talking to a lot of people across to articles, you know, and like EdTech and gaming coming together to make, you know, education more fun and interesting. So I think collaboration is one more space where I think people from who are solving different problems for local Kirana stores really need to see. So wherever I would want to come to you and get your views on this, you know, like you talked about in Enabler. So, you know, I know that in his way, Karthik, in his way and many other are, you know, enabling these for retail stores in a lot of ways. So do you think the collaboration is the way forward for them to, you know, put together come together. And like he said that, you know, bigger, bigger announcements. Of course, I know, you know, you are coming in today. I said that Flipkart again has made an announcement. Nothing to fear. You have your solving a particular problem. You are solving a particular problem, come together and you give a holistic solution to a retailer. Empower them. Is that something that you would really want to see going forward? Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I think let's kind of look at the history that we have as a country, right? We have the history of large companies becoming larger and doing everything, right? Now, what happens in that is the consumer actually uses because everybody doing everything is delivering an average experience across the world, right? There are very few people who are the conglomerate business is as ended three decades ago. We are still kind of trying to save it in our own way. But I think the consumer suffers, right? Now, having said that, if you look across the world across segments, it's the specialists that have always won. Because the specialists have figured out a problem that a consumer has far better than a generalist. And has created a special solution to solve that problem better than a generalist can, right? Now to take a very global example, when Facebook bought Instagram, Instagram would just pictures with filters, right? And anybody can copy it, but you cannot copy the DNA of what was created, the engine and how it ran, right? Now, I think if you look at this whole, I think India is very brutal in terms of how large the conglomerates are, right? So that's why I think the upstarts can feel fairly unsure about how they're going to do in this kind of, you know, big kind of conglomerate driven world. But I think Zerodha is a great example, right? I think, and the fact that they did it all without any venture capital, even a bigger example. So I think the specialist is the future, right? I don't think we all need to solve everything. Because if we end up doing that, we will just not solve anything completely or well enough, right? So I think special, this is everything. That's why, let's say Shobkirana is doing supply chain. We have an agri company called Bharat Agri, which is just solving advice. They want to be the best advice engine for farmers in the country than anybody else, purely tech, AI, ML powered, right? And they will partner, I mean, I have a large agri portfolio, they are actually partnering with the rest of them, right? So I do believe that the new generation of entrepreneurs will believe in specializing, going deep and being the best at what they do. And by nature of it, they will automatically partner. I personally believe that that's where the future is and obviously that's where I'm putting my money to go. Saurabh, I just want to add a few hints from my past experience in the Indian army. And I come from a military background, four years of training, 10 years in hard combat. So I happen to read a lot of military history, right? If you actually look at the history, what are always fought for certain ideologies? And then there are allies, big and small, right? The challenge when I look at startup entrepreneurs, and I myself won, right? There is a certain pride in doing it alone. But if you truly care for the impact, if you truly want to transform things at scale, I would borrow from Mr. Ratan Tata's quote, that if you want to reach faster, walk alone, if you want to reach further, walk together, right? So I think that instinctively, if we think that, okay, everybody needs to collaborate, there is no shame in extending our seeking help from even your direct competitor to say, hey, how can we do this together? Because what are we fighting for? We are fighting for a new world order. That world order is driven by technology. We all came here to solve the problem for the mankind. If you take from that perspective, yes, money and everything will be incidental. Then we came here to solve the problem for retailer or inefficiencies in trade. Is this problem a $500 billion market or probably $1 trillion aggregated across all of the B2B addressable, probably 50% of it, can it be solved by any one company, however big they are? Sure, how long will it take? Are we willing to wait for three more generations or do we want a change to happen in the next like, say, 10 years, 15 years? If the collective consensus is, yes, we need to solve it together. Every person, the government, the enablers, the investors, the startups, the big purple, everybody needs to join hand in transforming the nation. And there is surplus because India is at an inflection point in the GDP that we are when we cross the $3,000 per capita GDP. The nation's consumption, especially people will start becoming less price conscious in grassy. There is actually a hierarchy of what all people become less price conscious. Grassy is the first one. You will have much more process food. You will have much more value added value addition happening. There is markets. If you look at established markets, there is so much of innovations need to happen. You walk into any convenience store in Hong Kong. I mean, look, you have like within the same metro station, you will have four, seven levels right next to each other, right? Or not seven level circle K or whatever. If you go to seven levels again, the same thing, right? So therefore, I think that the time has is today more than ever because we are all having an invisible enemy like COVID, the virus attacking all of us, right? It is all the more important to think collaboration, cooperation, allowing more important in order to solve a problem greater good. If we, what will happen if you fight piecemeal? I think that grocery market is like a Russian winter. You have to respect it. If it will consume the best of generals. That's what I would say. So therefore, if you want to really solve the problem, think collaboration, think, you know, extending each other reach and technology like you will have reach out of technology. We should just think about solving and a better greater good will emerge out of this, right? Rather than, you know, taking a very parochial siloed view. I think that that has that that maturity has to come from entrepreneurs that maturity has to be instilled into entrepreneurs with investors. That maturity has to come in the carved up circles in, you know, large big people. This whole notion of, oh, I have this much money I'll destroy you has not played out. Like literally, if you look at it, right, people like shop Kirana or jumbo tail is today, we are, you know, billions of dollars of capital couldn't wipe us out. Billions of dollars of capital couldn't wipe out the Kirana stores. Talk about it, right? Talk about it. You couldn't wipe them out. 20 years you tried. No, you couldn't. So therefore, this is a very different market. The time has come for all of us to respect the way this market is shaping extend helping hand and creatively collectively solve the problem so that the bigger newer world order BDS our place and everybody has our payouts and the consumer benefits. That's what I would, I would say. No, no, and I think just one small addition there is I think you brought a very important point which I think India is lacking even in the startup ecosystem, which is that about MNA is right. I think we need to have MNA because I think at some point it does make sense to join forces and do something bigger faster cheaper. But it'll happen. I think, you know, I was very pessimistic a few years ago, but I think the last four or five years in the ecosystem have been very, very encouraging on multiple fronts. I think it will only get better. Thank you so much. I really liked your point about and I know very interesting. I'm very interested in military history. So I keep watching all the time. I know what you're talking about. So, you know, gentlemen, if you allow, we'll start taking some questions because we have a very little time left. So, you know, we'll, we'll, we can give the audio to Chandray. Chandray can ask that question. Hi, everyone. Hi, Chandray. Yes, please go ahead. So my first question is for Jambotail for Karthik. Karthik, thank you for telling us about what you do. I wanted to ask how are you ensuring that the supply chain is uninterrupted because there are a lot of changes in the lockdown rules that are coming and going week in, week out. So how you are dealing with those kind of government rules, et cetera, to make sure that the Kirana stores are getting their supplies. That is one. Secondly is how important would you say it is to build a private brand within your supply chain? I believe Jambotail runs something called Jumbo Farms. So if you could tell us a little bit more on that. And sort of I had another question for Anand. Should I take it later? Let Karthik first answer maybe then we can. We have a few minutes. I'll just say I want to thank the government, incredible support wherever we are present. And this is the first time I came from the government world. I've seen the military side, but now I actively work with the bureaucrats. I actively work with people. Despite whatever Hollywood likes us to believe, I think these are incredibly talented people. We are so lucky to have them and they are helping us in every way and form and shape. And so one good thing about Jambotail is we own the entire supply chain operations. We have our fulfillment centers and we directly procure from the brands mills. And we have our own logistics. So therefore in cases where brands were not having their own transportation, we can go and pick it up from them. So we could arrange and intrastate transport was not as much impacted. So there was no problem for goods up on the line halls or line halls. So from the factories to the large fulfillment centers, there was no problem because they concentrated large trucking zone. So that's not a problem. The problem was always between the fulfillment centers in and outside the city, which is to be an equivalent of a CNF for a brand. And how does it reach the thousands of the Kerala source? That was completely broken because that was dependent on small trucks and refragmented set of distribution. So we being an organized player, we were able to attract and retain talent. First of all, we provided the safety. We spent money on insurance. We spent money on gears like giving them the face shield or giving them the confidence to come and work. Second thing is when even public transport was stopped, we arranged the local transportation for people with the pass of the government. So therefore we were able to ensure the workers were having the mobility to reach from their villages. We ran shuttles and stuff. We were not able to get them to the warehouses. We gave them additional meals. A biryani became a safely cooked biryani became an extremely important motivator for supply chain people to come and work for you. That is the level in which we are dealing with and we need to get down there. But I will also tell you that the ability to stand the unseen enemy like a virus, which can actually take your life and endanger everybody around you, you cannot do with money or equipment. It has to be years of instilling the right culture in the company, which we have done for whatever we did for the last four years around building a value system. We used to tell that our loaders, you are not lifting a sack of rice, you are lifting the nation on your back. We didn't tell them today. We told them right from day one because when you drop a poorly packaged material on the ground responsibly, it just breaks. It is not the people in the packaging material and then we have to bear all of the losses or the supplier has to bear the losses. How do you motivate people to do to respect? And this is how we are always instilled. We said you are not driving trucks, you are moving the nation and that's the pitch. Otherwise it's very hard to attract people to do low margin grocery business in a cost effective way that we are doing. Therefore that ensured that we were able to continue our good work and able to service our customers. The second question on the government, I have no words to thank them. Enough support, passes, direct relationship with the top civil servants, top police officials. Anywhere somebody gets stopped, they give a call to us. We call the control center and then they call immediately within three minutes all of the bottlenecks. So Jumbotail was able to operate in a manner which are unorganized to small distributor, fragmented set of distributors are not able to operate. So therefore our supply lines were always open. Last question regarding your private brands. I always think that any brand should have a reason to exist. And you know most people think of private brands may you will make an addition. Our question, our problem was never about margins. Our problem was that there was a certain price point and gap that the market was not addressing. That was important to the consumers as we understood from our data. And we went to the people and asked them to build the brands. That is our first approach because again, it is again become manufacturers. We are not in the business of manufacturing. But when those solutions are not coming up front and we are all the demand information. The second problem the consumer was facing was inconsistent brands in staples. So Jumbo farms is a wide staples brand and staples inconsistency. Most brands will come. They have this harvest of paddy. They would have taken a position. They will crush it. They will put it in the brand and three months, five months and then that's all. That brand is existing only for that season. The next brand similar things will come. We were not able to guarantee a certain quality level to the consumers via the retailers. So we innovated. So we went to all the mills who are producing and then we said this is the quality. So long as you are able to guarantee the quality and I am getting your firm demand. And then you put this label. So we'll solve for helping you get the quality information, demand information, and we'll solve for the consistency of the customer information. See brand is very fragmented in our country. There is no recall. So therefore we solved for price points and quality points that were not currently being addressed. And we would, it's a democratic. So Jumbo farms is yet another product that's available in the market. So the consumer will always have a choice. It's just addressing a gap. So that is where, you know, how we think about, you know, brands. I think, you know, I have less time. I'd stop it here. Yeah. I know we have run out of time, but gentlemen, I request if you can stay with me for 10 minutes. We have questions. We would really want them to be answered. So if you can go ahead with your question for Anand. Yeah, she has sort of. So I saw you on Global Fit Tech Fest yesterday as well. And I was working with NPCIL sometime back. It's great to see you on the platform and everything that you're doing. My question for you was what is the scope of scaling you see in the Karana space for nearby? What pay nearby? What, what I mean is how open are these people to come on board? And also if any unique strategies that you use to onboard non-internet user store owners, like who are not at all open to moving online or using phones or apps for payments. How, what was the strategy that worked well for you? Okay. So strategy has two parts. One is you want a formula or you want the way it has been derived. So let me try the hard way and explain you that when you start with empathy and you look at the purpose. You get a approach broadly that yes, this is the segment which is tech oblivious and the bottom of the pyramid. And then you come from a patent oriented background with five patents in banking. Then you see that how can you bring the high end of tech to the bottom of the pyramid. So this whole approach solves a lot once the clarity of purpose is done. Everything is simple. Then when you announce it, the collaboration comes. We came this far not alone. Important to share that the Department of Financial Services Reserve Bank and PCI, they have been doing great amount of work. The so called CTO of the nation, Nandan has been driving the high end and the bottom both in the steering committees at NPCI. Today what India could afford to access financial services is all done by Nandan. I would say that the UPI for high end, he was driving steering committee at NPCI. The Aadhaar Enabled Payment Service, there was Nandan sitting and sharing the programs. The fact that digitization is the only way and retailers are also seeing it hard way in the current times. The fact that five lakh retailers are doling out that 500 bucks to citizen, not to customers to citizen. It's a higher purpose what Karthik mentioned that you are not lifting a bag of rice. You are lifting the nation on your shoulder. It's a great way of explaining the purpose to citizen and to our retail partners that you are not serving customer. You are serving the citizen of the nation and people work tremendously hard on this. It's a misnomer that connectivity is a challenge in the rural because in 17,000 pin codes, ten year buys, four and a half lakh, five lakh digital pradhan's dole out two million transactions a day. Two million transactions a day and these are heavy packet APS transactions which suffer the transmission loss. Even with 50% failures, 92% of the customers get serviced. It's a simple thing. What choice do they have? A citizen cannot walk 20 kilometers with broken transportation right now. The easy thing they have is wait on the side for five more minutes and then put their thumb again. So this is solved, I believe. The formula, if I may say, is to digitize and universalize. Now this you can apply to very many things that how do you take a high end thing in a simplified manner to everyone. But yes, it comes with a layer of sense of purpose, sense of empathy when you start seeing, believing, observing people. And my seed job said for people for smart phone that you don't survey, you don't ask them, give them what you think they want. Our citizens, they don't tweet. The people whom we serve, they don't tweet, they talk to God. If a complaint goes up, then two people will get COVID right now. At this time, this is the situation. If you follow this, they will get a lot of bad wishes. You tweet and you get your 500 back in a ziffy if you go and attack DEFS or finance ministry. These people, they talk over Sita. You have to be ultra responsible. Bring all your acumen of banking security, convenience, customer grievance reversal in that one simple interaction at a retailer in 30 seconds. Bhaiya, 2 kilo aloo, 1 kilo paaj, 500 rupiah ka FD code ke cash dedo mujhe. That is what India is evolving to. And I'm proud to be working with my colleagues in this endeavor. Thank you very much. I will take the next question. I think so much has asked the question. If you can give so much. The audio please. So much. So much is not there. Maybe we can we can give the audio to Abhay Chhattah. Abhay Chhattah. Okay. I'll, I'll, I'll maybe, I'll, you know, to save time. I'll ask the question that show me that how many apps will a customer install niche players should target niche local markets. Or one grocer ties up with everyone. So first big bus gets to give the matter, et cetera. So, you know, wherever can I come to you, we were talking about collaboration. And, you know, and maybe the question somehow, I think that the essence of the question is that, you know, how many people actually we do go to for, you know, for specifically. So, if you can take up this one. No, I think I think that's a great question and something we think about every day. I think so my personal view is that we should be doing all of this through. What is the largest app that we use every day and that might be different for everybody but it looks like it's most likely WhatsApp for most people in India. So technically, why should I have to leave my app or my my power app to go outside right. And now what has happened is that I think because of the way some of these aggregators have evolved, it has become a world garden, right. And the bad part of the world garden is that you and I have to go and install multiple applications. Now the question we have to ask is it's actually the same restaurants that that's delivering that is the same stuff, the same brand of what I get delivered and things like that. I think the question is how do I create something that actually doesn't require the demand to go through a particular system. Right. I think and we've seen this happen in payments right no longer do we have to go this way and this way and this way. I mean just yesterday there was a e-commerce team that I am mentoring where they were kind of trying to answer this question about offers and you know the offers are under this card and this payment gateway and this and people just lose track of everything. So I think we are seeing these kind of world gardens and islands that are happening, which, which at some point have to kind of open up and I think this whole API driven world that we will go into is probably the solution in terms of how I can not have to go into a system to do an activity. I can just do it myself and the system takes care of it right so I think it's a it's a hard problem in the short term because I think the aggregators have done a very, very hard job that they will protect for a long time. But I think in other segments we will see kind of API driven open systems where I won't be forced to use an app to do this and kind of open up slowly. So I think that's the future, but I think we will go through these world gardens for some more time. Thank you so much. We'll quickly just take one more question then even before we wrap up. If we can give the mic to Ankush Mithil please. Yeah, hi. Ankush please keep your question short because we've run out of time so we'll get your question answered. Thanks. Thanks. Hi. I have worked with Karthik before in Jumbotail and I follow Weber Von LinkedIn. So great respect for you guys. I'll keep it very short. I have a question to Weber. What do you think penetration of health brands in consumers eating habits at a premium price? What do you think what sort of consumers would be early adopters? And what do you think the adoption speed of healthy brands in tier two and tier three cities? Yeah, great question. Something that is top of mind. I'm talking to multiple teams at this point, which tells you that I'm a believer. Right. I think in general it's adding it goes back to point I think mentioned earlier. Right. What is the, what do the consumers want? Right. Do they want to eat healthy? Yes. Do they want to get fitter? Yes. Right. Now I think the challenge lies in terms of, you know, a lot of healthy brand companies and founders thinking just about the product. Whereas I feel that a good product, whether it's a vitamin or a powder or something like that or a bar, there will be table stakes on quality. Right. And everybody, I mean, I don't think that would be the differentiator. What needs to happen for you to be successful is really to have a story. Right. I think without going into the politics or anything of it. If you look at Patanjali, Patanjali is a story. Right. It's a story. It's a brand established by one person. So I think if you look at the US where brands across health and non-health have exploded over the last 10 years, right. And in my time as well, just incredible explosion of brands on just a very small 300 million population. Correct. I think in India, we have an incredible opportunity because we just haven't innovated on the brand side. So yes, we need that, but product is going to be a table stakes. It is the story and distribution that you have to figure out to a large extent. Distribution is also table stakes. I think people will figure out the online offline. It is the story. I think, and that is where the story, the community around the brand that will make all the difference. And I think once that happens, then I think pricing will become less important. Okay. So thanks. Thanks a lot. Next question is to Karthik. Karthik, do you think the distribution of healthy brands at premium price could be driven by retail stores? Or you think the premium product consumer will rely more on supermarkets or online channels? Today, I will give a different answer. Two months ago, my answer would have been different because the consumer was making certain choices of new discovery. And, you know, he was coming to top ups and for the Karana store and there was some sort of a brand identification. But first of all, let me tell that until India reaches a certain per capita, this question has to be nuanced with the certain kind of, you know, okay, what is the top answer to the top 10 million people of the country versus the remaining folks. The challenge that today supermarkets or whatever the top like a food hall kind of a business in this COVID, I think it will take a little bit longer for people to go to malls. So every discovery, whatever that needs to happen needs to happen via the mom and pops. Online is not a very great mechanism for trying new products. Online is a great mechanism for like, for example, online B2C is a great mechanism for pulling what you already tried. So the first trial needs to happen today because of the COVID environments where your, your large established malls and where your, your, your samplers are all of those people. We need a fundamentally different model to reach the consumer. And especially when the consumer is not going out as much before because of work from home because of, you know, any other restrictions, travel, mobility, whatever. How do you make the people try it? So the answer to that question can lie in two forms. One is through the mom and pops placing the product on the shelf or tying up with food companies. So for every food delivery, you could incentivize the food companies are also looking to make margins. You have some, you know, marketing money. So you give them say sample packets we distributed. So somehow you had to figure out in the first principles, how do you get the first taste to happen? Then if that problem is solved, that, that person will be solving this problem will be very different. So earlier, all these things used to happen in the same place, in a food hall or in a, in a big bazaar or in, you know, all these big malls where I go, I efficiently can sample for large number of customers standing in only one place. And then a fraction of them would like it and do it trial immediately. Right. So now this has to be broken down. So people are coming out less. So you have to send the samples in some form. You have to make it then available through other channels. So this is how I think about it. And then the larger question of, can it become mainstream? I think that, you know, people are making very conscious choices about how they spend their dollars. You know, premium is not something that I am very bullish. At this point in time, healthy, definitely. Yes. But let's say a packet consumer is a consumer was never fooled and no longer going to be fooled with a packet full of macanas with full of air. Right. So five macanas for five rupees is not fly. And you have a higher margin profile because you have to cover your distribution costs. And that's a problem that some, some manufacturer has to, as to try. But I think people are going to have to explain and really earn the consumers dollar right now. That's at a premium. So I think, you know, getting to general trade all the healthy brands, which are sold at a premium price. So healthy brands, like say, what is it? Papad, when you crush it, it's a Gujarati dish. I'm Kakra. Right. So, so all of those kind of, you know, local healthy brands which can be manufactured. But if you want caramel salted popcorn and you want to fill it in like a lot of nitrogen and give it, I think it will have its challenges. Thank you. Thank you gentlemen so much. We have really run out of time. I don't want to hold you up anymore, but it was really insightful for me to listen to everyone of you. Actually, you know, Patrick, will you explain that how we, you know, encourage your Kirana store to the 90 people in the supply chain. I will motivate them. I mean, for your insights of, you know, what really the customer needs today, our time on the order next week, so that that would be an variable. Definitely your observation to you. You have a purge from where you see everything and you keep up, you know, you keep up or tap on everything. So thank you very much gentlemen for being here today. It was really nice and I hope to see you again sometime later and thank my attendees to be here and we'll be again back to another episode of thank you so much. Lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye.