 This conference will now be recorded. So I welcome you all to this workshop from the Irish project on the battery energy storage systems. In the Irish project, the three lighthouse cities of Utrecht, Nice and Gothenburg are demonstrating many innovative solutions that supporting their transition to smart and sustainable cities. But in particular the battery energy storage system is a unique case because it is demonstrated in all three cities. And it is also an element that is demonstrated in many smart cities and communities projects in Europe. So in this workshop our partners from Utrecht, Nice and Gothenburg will present, will share their experience from the implementation of stationary electricity storage both in district and building level. The agenda of the event. In the beginning we will have a short introduction to battery energy storage systems from my colleague Vasilis Sugakis. And after that we will have different use cases in city of Utrecht from Bard Van Deri of Loboxnet in Nice from Christian Kame, PDF, and in Gothenburg in particular from Gothenburg we will have two cases. One in housing association Viva, presented by Pierre Holt, and one in a working lab building of Academis Cahus from Perlover. Love right. Thank you. And after this presentation we will have discussion, questions and answers. And before to give the floor to Vasilis for the introduction I will also want to present you the facts that we all together created for the battery energy storage systems. And this facts it presents the experiences in three in the three lighthouse cities, but not only the technical solution. It also presents societal user and business aspects the expected impacts of the demonstrations and lessons learned. And this facts it is available on the Irish website. So thank you all for your effort to present to prepare the facts it and also to prepare this, this workshop. Vasilis, let me make you a presenter. Yes. Thank you Panos. Please let me know if you can see my screen. Not yet. Yes. So I will start with a short introduction stationary battery storage systems in order to give the context for the case studies that we'll see in the next presentations. We know the world is aiming towards more sustainable energy systems and battery storage is a key technology to achieve this. The EU has set ambitious targets for 2030 to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 4% compared to 1990 levels as well as increase the share of renewable energy sources in the final energy consumption. It is apparent that the energy transition will lead to a great increase in renewable energy sources. However, renewable energies are variable in nature and the energy production does not always meet the demand the energy demand. Energy storage is critical in ensuring the system flexibility and power quality in an energy system with increased levels of renewable energy sources. There are various technologies and various applications for energy storage. So today we're focusing on stationary battery system installed mainly on the consumer side behind the meter. And battery systems are suitable for providing certain flexibility in a scale from ours to days. There are also modular systems which means that they can be easily expanded and relocated from one side to another. And they're suitable for small scale applications, ranging from few kilowatts to bulk storage applications. Therefore they can be used, they're applicable to end users, network operators and utilities. So they can be used throughout the whole value chain of the electricity generation and supply. And have significant benefits on these users. So the battery systems have benefits that can be grouped based on the stakeholders that they are applicable to. So behind the meter storage systems can increase the self-consumption of renewable energy sources and provide backup power to consumers and users during blackouts. They may also lead to cost savings as well as demand charge reduction. So you can store electricity during off peak hours when the cost of electricity is lower and use it later on when in peak hours when the cost is higher. With regard to mini grids, the battery storage system can also lead to replacement of diesel generators and facilitate and smoothen the integration of renewable energy sources. And they can also provide backup power as well in cases of blackouts. While for system operation, for the transmission and distribution system operators, battery systems can may participate in, provided that they participate in an auxiliary market, an auxiliary services market. They can facilitate through frequency regulation as well as delay any network upgrade investments or lead to pick a past investment deferral. The main components of battery systems are the battery part, which contains all the cells that are connected to each other so that the suitable voltage and current is achieved. And along with the battery management system and the thermal management system, which basically protects the cells from harmful operation and balancing the state of charge as well as regulates the temperature and temperature gradients in the cells. The system also includes the power electronics for converting the power into AC and controlling and monitoring the voltage and fans and as well as other components in the system. And finally, there's a software layer where all the system monitoring and energy management that monitors the power flow according to the specific applications. So there are various types of batteries based on their chemistries that are used for various applications. The main types of batteries that are used in building applications are lead acid batteries as long as some types of lithium ion batteries. While other chemistries that are used in other applications are sulfur-based and carbon-based. So in order to select a specific battery for a specific application, there are several characteristics that need to be considered such as the battery efficiency, the response time, the lifetime and useful cycles of charging and discharging, as well as the energy density and specific power capacity and safety and eco-friendliness. So as mentioned before, the main types of batteries that are used in building applications are lead acid with lithium batteries. The lead acid batteries have lower capital costs and high charge discharge rate while lithium batteries have low operating costs and higher energy densities. Over the past years, lithium batteries have been gaining higher market shares and are being used more than lead acid batteries. And as we can see, they have favorable performance compared to lead acid batteries in terms of the energy density, both volumetric and gravimetric, as well as efficiency, useful cycles and lifetime. And it is expected that the share of lithium batteries is also expected to grow in the future, as the costs of these batteries are projected to decrease due to the economies of scale, improvements in the production processes, as well as improvements in the storage technology characteristics. Apart from installing a new battery system, there also appears to be a good case in reusing batteries from electrical vehicles for building applications. So lithium batteries are replaced when they reach around 80% of their initial capacity when they're in vehicles. So as there is still significant capacity left in these batteries, they can still be used in building applications which are less stressful and have different characteristics of charging and discharging and energy density requirements. So this practice has obvious benefits as it can extend the useful lifetime of the batteries and reduce the waste streams, as well as to potentially provide inexpensive batteries to the market in the future. And this is, you can see the process here, a general diagram of the process of repurposing the batteries. Now manufacturing involves certainly to remove the batteries from the electric vehicles and conducting a quality analysis of the components and data. The same source as well as the cooling and housing components may be reduced as well as the battery management systems. And the process is concluded with adjusting the management system for specific applications. However, the practice of using second light batteries from electrical vehicles is not well established yet and the conditions for successful implementation still need to be defined. So there are potential drawbacks that can hinder their wider implementation. Such drawbacks are the potential competition from new batteries that will have better characteristics and decreased cost in the future. The cost of repurposing the batteries may be quite high and exceed the potential revenues. So that's a potential drawback as well as another parameter that might lead to hesitation for the use is the lack of data on their performance on site. So within this context, battery storage systems have been used in the three Irish Lighthouse cities, Utrecht, Nice and Gothenburg. The battery system were used at the building and district level, both new and second life EV battery systems as part of the transition track to flexible energy management in storage. And these best systems were often demonstrated in combination with vehicle-to-grid solutions where electrical vehicles can also offer storage services through the interaction with the grid and control charging and discharging cycles. So vehicle-to-grid systems are also expected to increase the storage capacity of the energy systems in the future. And the Irish experience will provide valuable information on the performance of both stationary battery systems as well as vehicle-to-grid systems. Also on the regulatory and business aspects as well as deployment challenges and lessons learned from the implementation process. And these experiences will be shared in the following presentation by relevant partners from the Lighthouse cities of Utrecht, Nice and Gothenburg. Thank you. And I leave the floor to you, Panos. Panos, are you there? Can you hear me? Okay, so it seems that I'm going to be just taking over as a third presenter. So without introduction from Panos, that is fine, I guess. So let me see if I share this. Yes. And then it seems that you are seeing my presentation. Is that correct? Oh, sorry. I was muted. So are you seeing my slide fully or is go-to-meeting in the way, because it's in the way? No, no, we can see your slide. Okay, excellent. Just a moment to introduce you again. Bart van der Rie works with Loboxnet in Utrecht and he works on the transition track, two solutions. One of these is this battery energy storage system. Yes. So, okay, thank you Panos and it's fine. It's fine. So, yes, good afternoon everybody. I am connected to Loboxnet, which is a SME enterprise in Utrecht, and I suppose most of you know a little about it, but I wanted to make an addition in two parts. First a few slides on the concept of Loboxnet with shared electric vehicle-to-grid vehicles, providing flexibility. And then I would like to move to the stationary battery in Utrecht that is being installed as we speak. So that I can present a little about the role of this battery in the city. So first some slides about what Loboxnet is doing. Let me see if I can get the next slide. Yes. So, on the left of this picture you can see Robin Berg, who is the director of Loboxnet and who is, yeah, really a green innovator that is scaling up fast. And this was May last year, and this was the king of the Netherlands. That's the person in the middle visiting the opening up of the bidirectional ecosystem that the city of Utrecht is kind of becoming. And to the right you see the manager of Renault who is providing the first bidirectional prototype cars that you can see behind the people that were connected to the grid and that are able to actually deliver electricity back into the grid. So act as a battery as well. That story is a long story but it started literally in the backyard of this Robin Berg. This is this backyard. It is still more or less like this and this is the very first bidirectional charging station. At that time with the Chardemot protocol in Europe. So it has developed now into a company that is placing these charging stations, which has developed much further as you can see in this picture throughout the city. They have a contract with the city to place several hundred of these charging stations in the city and all of them are bidirectional so they are ready for bidirectional charging. As well he is exploiting a number of shared electric cars that are charged by these charging stations and that hopefully in the near future can also be bidirectional. So my role is to support him in this project by but I work together with Robin in several other projects that have developed this. And that means that the there will be a large number of these charging stations and car in the cities. And that this means that groups of these cars can act as virtual batteries. And that is really difficult to do because the cars are not always available and they have to be able to drive maybe this afternoon at five o'clock because somebody booked them. It is being done right now. And I'm presenting this as introduction because the stationary batteries that are now being placed in the city will work together with these cars and will they will be able to act as a backup for each other while generating flexibility for the electricity grid. And this is a nice one always to say, so you just has like 300, a little bit over 300,000 people, so like 100,000 or 150,000 households. All of those houses, if you have 8500 electric cars that could use their batteries to give electricity 8500 would be enough to power all the houses in the city for a whole night. Just to give an idea of the size of the batteries in these cars. I have an electric car myself and it's incredible the amount of energy that goes into a car. It can run your house for one to two weeks, depending on your house. So, at the moment there are like 130,000 cars in the city. So, only part of that needs to be sorry needs to be replaced by electric cars and then vehicle to grid and then you have a energy system that is your city. And this is the ambition of the city in the longer term. Okay. The first market for that technology will be new housing developments. This is a development that is going to be built in the next few years in Utrecht. It's a zero energy district. It's a little bit north of where we are with others. So a lot of solar energy on the houses and solar energy on this sound barrier here, and almost no parking places in this district. So, nice, nice, beautiful need for shared electric vehicles that could also stabilize that electricity production. Okay, so this is all introduction. Utrecht becoming a network, a city, citywide network of public charges and really getting a unique position. Okay, so where is Iris in this picture. This is the Iris area. So the colored buildings are actually involved in the Irish project. Most of them are social housing buildings. And somewhere here the stationery battery will be placed. First, some more pictures of this is also Iris the cars that are in Iris being opened by element and charging stations. Okay, and then moving on to the to the battery. Okay, actually, it has been quite a process so why is the battery not working yet. Well, because it took some trouble and it also was well very interesting to learn some lessons on the way and I would like to share that with you. So, initially, we had the ambition to also use second life batteries in Utrecht. And this presented using second life batteries has a number of advantages being circular extending life and so on. So, the partners put out a tender to battery producers and companies. Okay, can we please have a number of second life batteries installed in the garage boxes on the other side of these buildings connected to the buildings and yes, can we have that. Well, the teller didn't go as planned. Let me say it like this. Actually we did not get good offers what we got was a lot of concerns about fire safety issues, which I think are very dangerous. So if you put a battery, a second life battery, even more, maybe, maybe more dangerous, but the thing is we don't know if you put something we don't know in the cellar of a building where people live. Well, there is not much or not enough known about the fire risks of the batteries so the parties delivering these batteries said well it's really hard to do and also the municipality and the region that came concerns about this. A very practical thing is that these garage boxes are not really very high and the batteries were very high so physically high. So they were too tall for the garage boxes to fit in well, which is not good. The third one was that the prices we got offered were really high. So it was kind of amazing the prices of the second hand batteries. As we were offered were significantly higher than the prices of new stationary batteries with the same capacity. Well, actually, I don't know for sure but what I think is the amount of second hand or sorry second life batteries on the market for this type of application is really limited still we don't have so many electric cars yet and they are new and so the complete flow of batteries from cars to this application. As you have to start this is future. And it might also be that, but this is a suspicion of mine. That's beautiful subsidized projects like this create a kind of an artificial demand temporarily for second life batteries. But this was never told to me this is a personal conviction. But the end is that that it really was not working well we would have very small batteries for very high price and they wouldn't fit well in the building and we would have a lot of trouble with fire safety. So, in the end, it was decided to switch to new batteries. And also to put them outside the buildings to make one central battery energy system between the buildings and have a tender for that. Well, that tender gave resulted in offers that were much more competitive like think about the factor of 1.5 to 2 more kilowatt hours per euro that's a than second life batteries. And we selected in the team, Tesla power pack to be installed. We have some one or two pictures about later in the next slides but let me say they, the Tesla power packs have been delivered right now they are waiting to be installed and to be connected. And after connection we will, of course, exploit them and also engage do actions to engage citizens and the city with with press and and well we have some nice ideas about that. But still we first have to install that. This picture is what's actually actually there now there on the street. And they have been delivered by Tesla and they need to be installed now. So we're talking about Tesla power pack battery capacity 845 kilowatt hours power 590 kilowatts. It will be interconnected to a PV system, so that direct PV charging can be stored. And also this is to generate research data for scaling up. It will be interconnected to the vehicle to grid electric car sharing system that I presented before. Okay, and it will have smart inverters guarantee it will be compliant to several protocols. And it will be out will be installed outside in a green area between the housing buildings, how will it be used and exploited. So the housing association Boax has bought it will be the owner will stay the owner but the technical and financial exportation will be delegated to long box that an agreement for that is. Well, it has yet to be signed but it's it's almost there. And what the better we will do. It will be trade on the balance markets of the TSO primary reserve and the frequency response markets. Actual business result of that trading is hard to forecast at this moment because these markets are in the Netherlands really in a lot of movement, I would say so this year. They, they have been more profitable than last year but the year before they were more profitable. So the business case of this will be uncertain. They will be used to store the power from that PV system and to feed it into the grid in a more regulated way together with this. They will be connected to the grid balancing system that also contains the electric vehicles so that we can provide local flexibility in the Irish district. Unfortunately, in the Netherlands, there is no business case yet for doing that DSOs are not at this moment in addition to to give any financial incentive to provide flexibility but this is kind of a physical experiment and a market experiment that we can do with these batteries. And it will be generated it will be generating technical monitoring data and we will also. Well, let's say play with it so that we can generate research data for for upscaling. Okay, as I said the exploitation results are uncertain. We think we can expect for this battery to have a positive exploitation result. And if it is there then it will be used for the benefit of the tenants who, especially this year can use a little money and or public space improvement. So the, in fact, the housing association is not allowed to add positive results to its own balance. Okay, the whole thing will be subject to quite some constraints, for instance, the exploitation is not optimal because this battery will suffer from this double energy taxation thing that is in place. In place in more European countries, as I am aware, as I said, the DSO is not allowed to create a flexibility market yet although they are working on it so hopefully in future, they will be able to actually share the money they will save from the flexibility with people. The flexibility. Okay, and so but but we will try to run it and these issues have been brought to the attention of the European Commission already a while ago, among several initiatives in this innovation deal on electric vehicles. Okay, these pictures are from a different battery. That is, I think less than two kilometers away in the same city. This is what it will more or less look like because this is also Tesla power pack it's situated at the trade fair area Yarbbers, some of you, I know I visited it. And the nice thing is that we will be able to to team up these batteries when it is necessary or when it is useful to to work in the same energy system together with these cars and other flexibility measures. This battery is kind of the future of the Irish battery, but it will also be a brother battery working together sometimes. Well, that's reaching the end of my presentation. So to summarize, we are installing our battery right now. We have learned interesting lessons about tendering for batteries that I have shared. The initial results can only be obtained at this moment on the TSO balance markets, but we can provide other services on the local level and turn this district into a smarter district with the battery. At this time, we hope to continue to get important practical experience and search results while we are trying to to see how it actually will work for financially and also for the tennis and the public space. Well, that was my presentation. This involves a lot of parties. Thank you very much. Come back later with questions regarding this demonstration. And our next presenter is Christian came from EDF Christian will present the demonstrations in miss. In particular in two buildings. The building of the miss of the miss college or university and the palatio meridia building of next city. These buildings are close together and both have they have installed battery and storage systems. You hear me. Yes, that's the moment to make your presenter. Okay. So, I have problems with my camera because I'm from the iPad, so I'm not sure it should work. But I tried to share my screen. This should work. I hope. Yes, you see it now. Yes. Perfect. So, Christian came from EDF. Okay, not yet. It's okay. It's good. Yes. So, Christian came from EDF located in Marseille, south of France, and we prepared this presentation together with a friend from the university in school, which treated me with a lot of information. And I tried to condense into this presentation. So, let's say the delight of this presentation for me was to give you a little bit of feedback or let's say lessons learned from the process we have lived in the last years. And, well, try to share important things with, I think, should be put on the table. And so to avoid anybody who retries to do the same thing to do it better than we have done. I think it's the aim of this innovation project is to live this process, live with all the obstacles we live and well-unshared it to enable others to not do mistakes again. So, well, we have a few recs. It's not the Latin for the king. It's just a very French jargon we use for return of experience. So, we give you a tonic experience of the design procurement and delivery phases we have lived until now. So, we didn't go into operation yet. So, we will have to do it another time. So, just a small reminder. I think you know this picture. So, we have just resettled the two buildings we are talking about. We have on the left side, the next city building. It's the biggest wooden frame building in France, which already completed and totally sold and inhabited. There we have a PV system, about 90 kilowatt peak, which is connected to an 80 kilowatt battery system energy storage system, and which will be integrated in a what we formally call common self-consumption. So, the meaning behind this that we have one producer. So, the PV system, which can dispatch to many users or more than one, in this case, two users, the energy consumption. And so, it's regulated how the transaction, let's say the cost of the PV and also the energy are split between these two customers. Let's call them. On the other side, you have the in red building, which is the university building, which is also delivered. And students are already using it as they should in this school year. So, in this case, we have an individual self-consumption. So, these 180 kilowatt peak PV system feeds directly into the building. So, it's the only, let's say, consumer behind. There we have a quite a complex system, because we have about, we have one first life battery system with 100 kilowatt peak. 100 kilowatt, sorry, and 150 kilowatt hour. And we also have two battery stacks of sort of 36 kilowatt each from second life battery. So, they're coming from Renault. And so, these are two battery stacks we have also in the building, which also will be used. And we also have, like, one prototype of the Renault Zoe direct current, no, current V2G prototype in the building. So, that I think we could, for the next time, use this type of image. So, you see, buildings are good and running and delivered, and they're much nicer than the 3D rendering. And just, so, let's move forward. Do you see the slide with the written content, just to ensure that you are on the same page? Yes. Great, thanks. So, I think one point to rise is that actually we have really a non-coincidence between the starting, and let's say the lifetime of a real estate project and our H2020 project. So, it's nothing bad. It's just a matter of fact, real estate had to start earlier, and so we came into the game later. So, actually, the whole action we had to perform was kind of running against the clock and also decision making process to ensure that we get everything settled in time and ensure everything then will be taken and integrated into the construction process. So, the whole process has been lived as a totally, as a posteriori modification of all technical elements you live in a construction life cycle, let's say. So, we had to revise or connect it related to the storage system technical and functional specifications. We had to update multiple times plan and drawing schemes. And also, there were a lot of discussions about who should do what and who is responsible for what. So, this really needed also to run up and down all scales of decision making, not just in our own companies, but also in third party companies and ensure they're all aligned and we get at some point all on the same page and get these things done. We also tried to really be proactive, feed information upfront, tell them already what they should foreseen in months of focus and ahead. But all this wasn't really helpful because companies just work as they used to work and they want to know things when they think they need it. So, this was not really something that was, let's say, efficient. Also, what we have to live with was that in this process, this process we also have to live with suboptimal solution. So, there were decision taken on systems, on measurement or activation system or on the ICT part. And, well, they couldn't be undone or just modified, we had to be integrated into that and so, we didn't get to the point that they would like for, let's say, details. But what we can say is that basically what has enabled all this was really a strong engagement of the owner, so from next city on one side and in red building on the other side. And I would say they also applied a little bit different strategies to make these things happen. So, in red, they're really owner and master of the building, so they really internalized a lot of activities. So, they took on on their own shoulders quite a lot of works. Next city is a totally different type of actors, so it's really a state developer. So, he chose the externalization, but he put in place a really nice collaborative approach where we ensured we can meet all together, we discuss everything together and so that we have all the same informations. Generally speaking, okay, we have engaged in a battery system. But why are we using it? How do we size it? What is the objective of this system? Why are we using it? So, what I could say is that actually generally speaking, I would say in the French conflict at least, we cannot base our sizing or the choice of a system purely economic or business model related aspects. It's most environmental ones or about image or about labeling of a building because by any mean, we did a lot of calculations. By any mean, there is no setup in an urban environment and also in a new built-in environment as we experience in these, let's say a monetary argument in favor of the system. In any case, we have to enlarge the return of investment on the over PV system, let's say, of at least three years and then you go up to infinity, the bigger you scale your battery system until you get to really, let's say, not acceptable numbers of 20 to 50 year return of investment and you have to calculate that your battery has, let's say, a lifetime which is insured by a constructor of 10 years to 15 years. So, we have to live with that and so we should look for actors which really have something more than just money in mind to push this type of project and let's say from a personal point of view this will not change in the short term. But what is really interesting is to first understand what are the use cases which have a potential and a short term in this urban environment so in tertiary or housing cases, not industrial sector which is a totally different type of approach. I think it's really interesting to look for and also what's interesting to mention is that we have used two totally different approaches between the next city and building for sizing these batteries. So, in one we used, it's not negative just because one is better than the other let's say traditional approach based on volume capacities looking for the load curve, load duration curve and identify what should be an optimum and then we used another approach which was a little bit more experimental which really going into operational scenarios so with really load curve simulations and operating the system at it should operate in real conditions and try to identify hints to how to better size the system. Next, maybe one more point on this point because of this non, let's say, profitability of the system there may be two things to be noticed. To be said, why in the French context it's not available, it's not feasible it's because the current, the current tarification system for electricity is not favoring but a range store system or other type let's say of economies in the subscribed power or on the sizing of the system because the tarification is mostly focusing on the volume of energy you consume and it's not penalizing anybody on the amount of energy the subscribed energy has on the network so you don't have any, let's say, enough revenues to make peak load shifting peak shaving or peak shifting and downsize your system and in this regards there is no engineering company today that takes the risk to downsize your system based on let's say the capacity of a battery so we still have oversight system from the electrical part and in this system you have to fit into your battery energy storage system which doesn't make it really makeable from a financial point of view then what I think we also did in general was a little bit narrower in the budget so it's not rocket science to size the system but you have to understand that the battery is treated like a rocket and to really run the system understand what you should prepare for you need quite a lot of knowledge talking about science or at least you really have to have insiders which really know what they're talking about we tried first to lean on regulation but regulation on battery storage systems in the build environment is really too broad yet so they don't give you any hint about what you should do and what you should look for it's really, it's a really bit disappointing, let's say, if you're trying to search on to its there what you have to search for is really insiders which have handled the experience we have lived the system and which can give you a return of experience and really tell you what it's all about and in this case it was the after and forecast which played this role so they were in the first, they have explained to each and everybody all the issues associated with the system in a building and you will see it's not easy because first of all these are quite big systems so you need to have space for that and space in also in a 5000 square meter building if it's already launched, architect plans have been done all has been settled from a functional point of view find now square meters for integrating the system is very very difficult and so you end up putting it that really in the last corner you've got free space in your building which is really complicated then then as said you should treat it as a rocket because it's an explosive asset so you have very stringent fire safety measures as our colleague already mentioned and the problem is asset regulation doesn't give you a hint about if you call to the local fire department you might not even aware about it so really get to companies that know about it and they will explain you what has to be done and what is really interesting is that you also have a Tesla parked in your garage on the side well they don't have to satisfy all this measure but your stationary system yes so well and then once you have your battery it's a really special technology so you really have also to be prepared to go a step further in your let's say operation management system and also the whole ICT architecture you have so you should there are there much more let's say higher standards have to be that are required and which have to be understood on the client side and also from the other third parties involved so let's move forward so while talking about space this is a part of the plan of the parking of the next city building so a set space requirement gets really complicated and if you're talking about also as a real estate developer you have to let him understand that this battery which might not sound big well it's pretty heavy it's one ton and it's also pretty voluminous so once you search your less space in the garage you also have to ensure that you get your batteries through because they have to fit in all the openings and be put in place where they have to be in this case there was found a small place near the substation level so connection from that co-part it was really let's say optimized however there was no space for all the rest of the equipment which was needed for the control room so well you have to have your cables run around the whole garage floor and connect these different pieces of the system and well just a little note if this already seems a little bit voluminous and heavy if you want the same capacity of second life batteries you should calculate and double the numbers because you have let's say half the capacity more or less roughly speaking less the capacity with the same volume so you need to double the weight you have to double the volume to get the same capacities and then really a big issue was the fire safety as I've already been mentioned so we have our rockets in our garage so what do we do, what do we have to do to make it sure and if they're acceptable and have the building running safely so Onora is gone and has switched for all the bills and costs they have engaged in and so well for building this building you have to at least look for about 10,000 euros for all the machinery for the walls and let's say for the space for the security of the space you have to have fire though you have to have fire all the ventilation system concerning the climatization but also fire safety has to be redundant and specific to the to the to the battery room so you see all the list of the three appliances we have to put in place which gives you about a budget of 50,000 euros which haven't been foreseen and in neither of the cases neither in red, no next city were prepared for this type of cost so then once you have your battery if you want for the social of your battery well you can have two big models one is off the track so the company manufacturer leaves you the battery on your space or in front of a building and it's up to you or your engineering companies construction companies to bring this battery down connected and put into service or you can ask them for a tune key solution so they will engage for everything and ensure the battery is well up and running commission that it should the problem is that battery manufacturers the business is the product not the service so they charge a little bit higher let's say than usual engineer would you expect from usual engineering companies for making let's say going from the off the track to the current turnkey solution so you could just have you could choose a cheaper solution so the off the track one but then you should really be prepared to have a lot of surprises and then you will be almost always if this company is not used to and has not experienced this type of system you always have get back to your battery manufacturer and ask him for support which well doesn't come with comes with a price so well they should be taken in mind if this type of system is engaged and well and the devil is in the details that's why you always have to get back to your to your battery manufacturer so in this case we have a picture about the room where the battery system is located which you see on the right side and you have on the left side symbol so I give you just a few details really specific things which you had to experience so in the first case is that the whole system should look totally different than be if you usually look in manufacturer detail sheets you will see that all were packed racked one against the other but well if you have space problems you have to be a little bit creative and they had the chance to have the possibility to work hand in hand with the electricians to reassemble the whole system into the room let's say in another way which could fit more or less properly what you don't see in the right corner up there is that actually have the climatization system for the batteries which is properly set on top of the entrance however the problem is that the ventilation direction of this climatization creates an unacceptable let's say airflow on the battery rack why because on the whole racks you have sensors which ensure that you have a homogeneous temperature among all the cells and if you do pass a 10 degree delta T well the battery goes automatically in security mode and you're not able more to use them and now you have to get back and we adjust this issue and also what's really important why they have this type of sensors inside embedded inside the batteries because temperature influences the aging of the different cells and actually you would like that your cells let's say age in the most homogeneous way possible on the whole rack well so just a small adjustment of the direction of the flow avoided all these errors in the battery and can ensure them that they work properly and then if you're talking about space problems and you are in the underground well you should also maybe consider that you may be in a flood risk cell and so you should ensure that you still have enough space on top to be able to elevate your battery racks in order to avoid to a certain degree to come to be able to hedge against a flood which might happen or not in the building so then the battery might also sometimes a little bit underestimated in the sense you think that one is connected everything will work well it's not a plug and play system it really has to follow procedures how do you put your commission and put into service the battery and here we have the protocol which is followed by the manufacturer so really have to be able to because the battery comes just charged at 25% level and then have to let it cycle so discharge your battery fully charge your battery re-discharge it fully and then recharge at half and this is a big issue if your building is new because it might be that your load is too low to able to absorb your battery power so you have to have the okay from the distribution system operator to perform this type of action so discharge surplus capacity on the grid and this needs extra contact arrangements which is not a costly issue but a question of time so in the case of the building we have about 100 kilowatt power but the building today has just a 30 kilowatt load so you still have quite a surplus to inject for a few hours in a day on the grid and well if you are if you have the possibility to resistive pinch to dissipate the power from the battery but well it will heat up your room quite a lot so then when you want to go into operation you have to think about how you operate this building this system and how it fits into the overall management system of the building for all the facilities, all technical facilities so there is no standard for that you will be faced case by case solutions and you will see that depending on the choices that the operator has done you operate in silos so you have to try to connect silos together which might not be meant to be communicating together and you have to build up on software side, APIs which are pretty costly to be able to interface the system but you also might need depending on how open systems are on the physical part also on the meso system you should bridge bridges among metering or control devices switches maybe bypass them or double them depending on your needs so you should also be prepared to work on that and an issue on that is even though I said before you might provide the concerned parties with information upfront these are things that discussed very late in the project and it's usually very late in the project the costs are already overdone people are in stress in the hurry the days are accumulating so it's difficult to get things through on this level so just a small advice is that we still today it's just a matter of fact let's say today we live in a world where smart looks more like a spaghetti where it just means you have to build up so many connections as services so you don't have let's say an operating system which enables to interface all the system and dispatch the data and information and let's say the controls just where it is needed so what we would put forward is that once it's possible and really the system gets really into something could be a smart building to look for solutions which are going the direction of the nowadays I think emerging market of the building operating system which enable let's say to avoid the spaghetti where on the whole life cycle of the building ensure that you have quite a gains in the questions of architecture simplicity and also more important of costs because the big issues in the spaghetti where when you build it up you can build it up and you can work properly but the problem is when it has been settled it's difficult to fight somebody after a few years of operation which is prepared to re-change re-code, re-adapt all the system and it becomes quite of a really complicated and costly operation whereas with a building operating system it's sought to be an open system, an evaluative system in which you can plug entry, retreat, services let's say on demand which far less are cost so well what we are today we have all the system in the photos in both buildings, they are all individually commissioned so just today we have actually next to the building the battery is cycled as you have explained before in the charges for the cycle for the commission of the battery also the energy management system, the SCADA system are all in place we are missing to test the overall connection on the whole system because we are still missing the main metering block metering system on the load side of the buildings which are needed to have the load forecast so we think that we will be able to start everything in January and be able to go live with our energy management system and the whole battery system and then also start with interfacing it with the CAP which is under development so thanks a lot I hope I was not too long thank you Christian for this shared lessons and your detailed presentation thank you very much next presentation the third lighthouse city Gothenburg the first presentation is from housing association Viva it's a joint presentation by Elena Nordstrom from Gothenburg Energy Pierre Hult from Riksbegen and Ilva Ulawson from Volvo Group Tracks and I pass the floor to Pierre first of all can you hear me well yes okay good okay I'll try to share my screen wait okay so you we can see your screen but not the presentation yet can you see it now yes okay maybe I should do a quick introduction my name is Pierre as we said I have a master in mechanics and sustainable energy systems I've been working at this building and property management company Riksbegen for about two and a half years now with energy systems and I've been involved in Iris with the research and energy monitoring of Viva for the past two years more or less so that's a little bit about me and in the picture that you can see right now you're seeing the housing association Viva and this property have a battery installed obviously and I'm going to talk a little bit more about that the battery storage is connected to solar cells that you can see here on the picture doesn't seem like my now here on the roofs of the three tall buildings and on the roof of the one of the small buildings we have solar cells and the battery storage is also connected to a in the context advanced control system and we move on see the works yes the batteries they are lent by Volvo and comes from the bus line 55 who has traveled around the Gadenberg city for about five years before the batteries have been taken out the batteries are removed from the electrical buses when they have about 80% capacity left the reason for picking them out at 80% is that you want to be completely sure that the buses goes from start to end stop and within a few years Volvo will most likely have many electric buses in operation and will thus have a lot of batteries that eventually needs to be replaced so this is an attempt to extend the life of the batteries giving them a second life at the housing association Viva before being recycled as being said earlier the batteries can still be used in building applications that are less stressful and have different characteristics a total of 14 lithium iron phosphate batteries with the capacity of 200 kilowatt hours are installed this is a battery type with very low cobalt content the equipment in the room is adopted to not only fit the bus batteries but to also be able to fit other battery types if needed in the future the project will run for about five years or it will run for five years it's about three years left now and the main purpose is to develop a concept for storing electricity in apartment buildings with used bus batteries and with an associated business model the batteries will be recycled after use in Viva at the end of 2023 Volvo is responsible for the batteries being taken care of after the end of the project if the batteries can still be used they might be left in Viva Volvo has a supply responsibility here so we don't know yet if there will be what will happen to them but that is yet to be seen we move on as I have just said the direct purpose is to develop a concept for storing electricity in apartment buildings with used bus batteries but put in a larger perspective it's also about creating a better understanding for how housing and energy systems can work together to contribute to more resource efficient use of batteries in houses and vehicles providing increased opportunities to produce more renewable electricity in Sweden solar and wind to contribute to increase collaboration between the city academia and business and also to spread knowledge about sustainable living and the energy systems of the future that we are doing right now I move on okay and now to the battery storage location so what you are seeing here is some sort of cross section of the project and the numbering is the residential addresses and you see a cross section from east to west and the battery room is right here and as you can see there are no buildings nor any apartments or any structures above the battery room and that is very good in terms of fire safety and if I go back to the first slide really fast I can show you where it is so you are seeing the cross section from this view from this way so the battery storage is right here okay and a little bit about the security the batteries they have a room of their own a battery room and this battery room has its own cooling and ventilation and alarm system the operation and maintenance is handled by Gothenburg Energy and the alarms goes to Riksvigen service center first hand who then calls Gothenburg Energy for further handling during a normal operation no dangerous gases are expected to be formed but in the event of a fault the temperature can rise and dangerous gases can be formed and to ensure the right temperature ventilation and cooling systems are crucial for safety doors and walls meet fire protection class EI-60 the batteries themselves are not classified as flammable or explosive the batteries have a voltage of about 700 volts so it requires specific qualified people to be handled safety comes first and the safety requirements are high for both vehicles batteries and also high for this battery energy storage system now to the system description as being said in the beginning the battery storage is connected to solar cells and to a central node called energy hub this energy hub acts as an inverter converting AC to DC and vice versa so this is the the brain in the system the energy hub also collects data to optimize the energy flow between the solar panels the energy storage and the grid using advanced algorithms I move on and speaking of optimizing energy flows Gothenburg energy together with RISE are responsible for the development of a smart overall control system to control the energy flows within Viva an even smarter control system that is in operation the other one that is in operation right now and to give you some examples of how that control can be done the battery storage is first and foremost charged by self-produced solar electricity it can be charged by the electricity grid the baddest wood if they would be full then you would go directly to the property and residence electricity need and if the electricity demand is saturated then the battery storage and the battery storage is fully charged then the solar power supply would be sold out to the electricity grid solar electricity and electricity from the grid and from the batteries can also be used to power the heat pumps for preparation of hot water and for space heating the hot water can be stored in accumulator tanks to be used for space heating or hot tap water preparation later all in all you can say that the batteries can be used to produce just about anything in the energy system so they play a key role here so the expected benefits from the battery storage is that we expect the peak power to be decreased by 40 kW so about 20-25% we the solar electricity is reduced by 16% from 20 to 4% and we also reduce the load on the electricity grid and and this has been told earlier this is a way to utilize resources longer we give the buses the bus batteries a second life before being recycled and worth mentioning is also that the battery storage the system the room the batteries everything it's more of a state of the art solution and it would be it would most likely not be economically just justifiable to replicate it completely yes current operation while we're waiting for this to be implemented and activated we continuously set charge and discharge levels manually and the system is now set to a peak shaving mode where the batteries are used to cut the peak power consumption and we also have the battery storage to cut the peak power consumption and this is an example from the batteries in operation from July summer operation where we can see that the batteries actually are cutting peak power so the blue line represents the electricity consumption the black line is the both electricity from the grid the green line is the power from the batteries so when it goes below zero it recharges and when it goes above zero it discharges and the yellow line that would be the solar production unless expected it's high during the day so here it's quite clear that the battery storage reduces both power that would be the difference between the blue and gray lines you can also see that when the gray field when the battery during the day when there is too much solar production the electricity is being sold out on the grid and if we compare to a month in the winter it's quite clear that there are much less solar radiation but still we can cut some peak power but not in the same obviously like in the same way as in the summer so there is a clear difference yes, we move on key performance indicators might not be very interesting problems I guess this one this slide is interesting we've had some problems with the fire safety regulation they are not up to date for systems with reuse of bus batteries we have the integration between the batteries from Volvo together with the Viva's control system there's been some problems with that integration and alarm management and ongoing operation control we have had some problems with coordination between actors and distribution of responsibilities there's been many interfaces to work with but in all it has worked quite well actually I have to say and lessons learned have a maintenance charging strategy so that the batteries run out of charge important with continuous operation monitoring and to act faster on alarms and maybe have a compatible software in the batteries control software in the batteries from the beginning when you install them in the houses and then you wouldn't have all these problems with the integration that we've had yes that was it if you have any questions you are free to email me and I can forward it to the right person thank you very much thank you very much thank you and our last presentation is from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from Can you also share my screen because I have your presentation? Yeah, can you do that and I can present that later? Just a moment. No problem. You see my screen? Yeah. Okay. Can I control it? No, maybe. Let me... Otherwise I can say to change picture. It's maybe easier. You can change the picture for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. When we start. My name is Pel Övrid and my colleague Jonas Hansson will share you some information about our pilot project. Take the next picture. We have two pilot projects in Iris project. And they are located at Chalmers University testbed demo site. And there we have two things that we do for Iris project. It is a battery system that we are talking about here. And we have also a PCM cooling storage systems. And you can see there in the right corner of the picture. So it's a lot of things we have here at Chalmers test site. But today we will present also only the storage of electricity and cooling. The next picture. The working lab is the building where we have the storage, battery storage and the PCM storage. It's a rather new building that we have built in Chalmers University campus area. It's a little bit of innovation strategy in this building. So we put in new things that we want to develop and do a good performance with. As you can see it's a normal building in sites and 12,400 square meters. Rather nice building we think. You can take the next slide. I will repeat a little bit about what we are doing about this storage. How do we do it? It's very simple but sometimes it's good to go back and think about why are we doing this? For what purpose? As you know in the future energy productions will be more wind power. We are already there. Solar power, solar heating, solar productions. And the production will be controlled by more of the forces of the weather as you know. It will not be possible to control the production based on demand so much. If it's possible to produce then you should produce your energy of course. What happens when we can't produce it then? That's the problem. We must store it somewhere maybe. So additional electric productions through hydropower, nuclear energy or district heating can continuously provide electricity, heating and cooling. And it's controlled based on the need as you know. Fuel is supplied through fuel water storage. So there is the storage but when we use the future energy production we must fix some storage for the energy as you know. The cost of this variation in production ends up with the property owners. We believe that we are working for also know that increased power charges lie ahead. We now need to do something about this issue together with the power providers. Therefore we are interested in this type of pilot projects. Future energy system will need to be supplemented with energy storage and controls in this consumption stage. Energy storage for electricity, heating and cooling will become increasingly common. A shaving good result will require increased collaborations between producers and consumers. We must work more together in this issue. So we can take the next slide. And then I think we go into my colleague Jonas Hansson will take over here. Okay. Yes. In this building we have built solar panels and battery and DC network. And the purpose for this project in this aspect was to build a demonstration facility that contributes to technology development in the DC battery and solar panels. We have contributes to learning in the industry and contributes to research. And we have had the Swedish Research Institute with us in this project like BF Viva had the same thing. And our goal with this was fully functional facility integrated in the building infrastructure. And the benefits is to show the potential at one stage and this advantage is to direct current system connected to energy storage and solar production. And reduce transmissions loses in higher efficiency compared with traditional alternating current system. Next picture. Here's a lot of text. I'm not going to read everything. But the purpose of the batteries is to increase the self consumption from the solar production, just like Per just said. That's the primers thing to do. In addition, we connect the battery with the solar cells and loads in the building to avoid transmissions loses and conversion steps. And I think to connect the loads in the building has been the most problems with that part. I come to that later. Okay, we can take the next picture. Here's some of the components we have used in this project. We have had an bi-directional inverter between the AC network and the DC network. It's called an energy hub from Faramp. It's a Swedish company. And the total solar panels is about 177 kilowatts and the battery storage around 200 kilowatts. And the loads in the building, it's the most of the lighting in the buildings are direct connected to the... Yeah, the loads is the lighting in the building. It's about 1,300 fixtures. And the ventilation of the building is also directly connected to the DC system. And to do that, we have DC switch scares, DC control panels and distribution networks. You can take the next big picture. Yes, here's a picture of the total system. And the picture is cut from our monitor system where we can follow the power flows in the systems. We can take in alarms to see the status and errors and so on. Yeah, this is an overview for the systems. And the blue lines here is the DC network, which is 760 volt DC. And the orange lines, it's the AC network, the normal electrical grid. And in the left side there, you can see the energy hub that connects the AC and DC and can transport power each way. Yes, next picture. Here is some experience with the project. And the collaborative formats is one extremely diverse skill converged in the higher complexity project that must work. All the lights and the fans in the building is demand on this, that this will work. We can't just turn it off. It's a part of the infrastructure in the building. The battery, we can turn off the battery and we can turn off the solar cells. But we can't turn off the DC network because it supplies the lightning and the fans. One other thing is a relatively obsessed industry that will be giving standards for alternating voltage. This is a hard thing to go around. It's a high voltage, it's 760 volts and not so many things can be supplied with that. There is a limited knowledge of direct current in the construction industry with consultants, constructors, suppliers and so on. And to find the right people in the development department, it's not so easy either. And Färvamp has a central role in this system with their energy hub. They are very good, but they are also... Development takes time, so it's not easy to work with these new things and just to indicate monitoring, alarms, management and so on is also hard to work with. And to compare when we shall install the battery storage, it's not easy to compare different batteries. And what parameters should be compared, brand new batteries are compared with reduced vehicle batteries and so on. And how shall we compare them? That has been difficult to go through. Yes, the next picture. There are some technical problems also that we had. It's components without AC-DC phase and the old rectifier, lighting fixtures, frequency converter and so on. They had been very hard to find these things to connect to the system. And that's with a high voltage level, 380 or 760 volt DC. That's not easy. And there have been some... There are some startup problems when we have some other loads that are not controlled by the Färvamp systems. And the Färvamp system can't start with a black net when the loads are connected to the system. And so we have had some issues to solve that problem. And the alarm management, it's also difficult to do. There's a lack of experience with the property of operations and controls. And the alarm management is difficult to understand or not exist. And there's a lot of IT components under the shell. And over the time, how stable are they? These systems that we built in, for how many years are they still working? That's some questions we can ask you. And the design of the battery room. Some other speakers have talked about that. How shall we take care of the fire, the smoke charge, the ventilation, the heat, the cooling and so on? There are some standards. We have to do this with the best practice. There has been very many questions to come through this project. Not easy. Then I take over, Jonas. Thank you. I will talk about another thing to energy storage. Today we talk about electricity. Sorry to interrupt you, but we are run out of time. Give me two minutes. I think we talk about the battery, of course. That's electricity storage. But you can also use another storage. What we are testing is the PCM storage. We can operate our cooling machines. Normally they are electricity driven. And store the cooling when the electricity price is low. Or the solar cells are producing a lot of electricity. We don't store it in batteries. We store it in PCM storage instead. We have tested that in this pilot project in Iris. You can take the next picture. This is not the electrical diagram. It's piping. The storage is here, down in the right corner. And we load this PCM storage with cold water from the electricity driven cooling machines in the time where the electricity price is low. And then we take out the cooling storage when the price is high. That's the way. Normally as a normal battery, but we don't use electricity. We use the phase-chain material instead. And it's a very simple installation. Not so very much complicated things to get around with. But there is some problems. Can you give me the next slide? Here is a picture of the box. There is a container. The container is like a battery container. But this is salt in this container. It's nearly the same volume as a battery. I can say without. Yes, it's like the same volume as a battery kilowatt hour. The next picture. There's a lot of text here. But what it says here is that we use, as I said before, we use this PCM storage to storage cold water when the electricity price is low for our district cooling machines. And then we take it out, of course, when it's probably the best to do it. We also use this storage to take the peak, of course. In the Chalmers University campus area, we have a big cooling district system. And when we connected AVL, we didn't buy a new cooling machines. We did buy this PCM storage instead. So we didn't have to put money in new cooling machines. So we put it in a PCM storage instead of buying new machines. So that's one benefit also, of course. And you can take the next picture. Some experience, project management. We have a good experience by the project management here. This type of installation is not common. But it's pipe valves and so on. So there are a lot of companies who know this, who can connect them and so on. So that was not a problem. The problem is the knowledge of the PCM, of course. The PCM storage, the salt solution that we use in AVL building. And find the right people in development departments for the PCM project. And you can take the next picture also. Technical. We think it's not so very much... It's difficult to find the right supplier. And we come to choose the supplier, RubioTerm, that we think is the right supplier. But there are a few of them out in the EU. And the next thing is the performance. We have not yet got the right performance of the PCM storage. It's a problem, of course. If you buy something, you want to have the storage capacity. But we have just now maybe 50% of the capacity that we bought. So that's what we are working with now. And the control systems, we had... Can you go back? Control systems have been very complex systems that we put on too complex, which we should from the start not do it too very complex. Now we have restarted the system with much simplified functions to get the most important things to work. The most important is to store and recharge it. And go in the cycles mode. So not so very complex system. It's today a much easier system that we had from the beginning. That's what's our very short thing about PCM. And we are finished there. We can stop there. Thank you very much. Thank you all. We have a few minutes for questions. So if there is any question, please... One question? May I ask a question? I don't know who is... Should I be able to answer? Regarding second life batteries, do they have, in terms of high of safety regulations, it is more strict here? These safety regulations are more strict here for second life batteries or it's similar to the new ones? May I try half an answer? Do you hear me? It's Christian speaking. As you have seen, I mean, five safety is not well treated anywhere by me neither in first life batteries. And as you have seen and has been said, second life batteries is yet a little bit like Cognita in terms of experience. So there is a lack actually. There's a big gap. There is no... They stood erected from this issue. I would say there is no regulation. Unfortunately, on second life batteries. Yes, if I may. Bart van der Reijer from the Netherlands. I have the same impression because I'm not an expert in this, but what I have seen is a few very early drafts of possible regulations. And what I have seen in those documents was a very limited knowledge. And there's no good certification, for instance. So if you are a local authority, there's not a lot that can give you confidence that this battery will be safe for 15 years. If it is new or second life. I think anyway, it is very new technology and this needs to be developed further. Thank you. I can say I agree with the foreign speakers here that it's a problem with the connection, the ET systems around the batteries and also a little bit around the PCM. We take a lot of man-hour to get them working together when we will connect the ET solutions around the batteries. It's a common problem, I think, today. We have not come so far in that area. Panos, I have one question. That's okay. Regarding replicability, how do you see the potential there looking from the fellow city view if we should replicate it somewhere. But also we have been contacted by providers from the market that provides then battery storage connected with solar panels. And they seem to be quite standardized and I asked them regarding all these questions and they say as long as you put the energy storage outside the building, it's not a problem. But basically two questions. Replicability of these solutions and how do you look on the solutions on the market today? I start with an answer. For us, as I said, we have no... The main driver of batteries is not the economy as such. It's not your business model. There's not really much space to make, let's say, extra money with a battery. I mean, it's more a cost and a revenue. Nevertheless, there is really, really, really strong political support everywhere in terms of, let's say, greening your energy system. So, there's quite a lot of potential, I think, already in connection with these two kidney networks and they're moving towards heat pumps. So, there we have this hybrid operation model in heating, cooling and the building itself, which might be a producer. And there is some work to do. And we are working on that, for example. And that, for us, is one replication. And moreover, if this thing works, it's scalable, very scalable. And there you really have an interest because there you have the public authority which mandates you with being green as possible and maybe forget a little bit about the overall short-term let's say, financial balance. And so, you're able also to postpone, let's say, a return investment in long-term because you're under usually 20, 25-year contracts. So, that's one way we are going in that question. Second point is industry. Industry there, we can do that. So, I mean, they are not very keen, but to help some of them, they want to get rid of the diesel motors. And giants, so there is some space for that, typically also hospitals. So, there are very specific sectors which things are going on. I mean, it's emerging. But the challenge and the challenge we address here is really the tertiary buildings before we go into the housing, which is even more complicated. So, well, just as individual, sector and tertiary buildings in an urban build-up environment there's no great constraints. I think we have to come up with a thinking which can connect together political ambition, environmental ambition, labeling and local generation and bring up use cases which make sense for at least a certain part of the pool of customers. Well, and then the problem is we're talking about France. But if you move on to other countries in which a company like EDF might be operating or others, well, you have another market design, you have another grid code. And well, and there, there makes sense. It makes sense to make peak shifting and peak shaving. It makes sense to downscale your supply contract and try to head with batteries within, let's say, large ecosystem, demo function and behind. So far, my part. Thank you. Hi, this is Eva. I was wondering if you wanted to tell us something about the solution that you have discussed with us about the second hand batteries being used in a space and a real estate in Gothenburg but not the BRF Viva is another real estate and you looked at some solutions that the batteries were separated from the data sensors or the cells. Sorry, I mean the battery cells, I think. Is that correct? Maybe Eva is not here more. She is here. She is muted. Okay. She is muted. Well, maybe we can tell you about this not the time that Eva knows. Much more than me. Yeah. In fact, we want to organize another workshop for batteries for these systems after collecting data on operation of the systems because as the speakers told you before neither in Utrecht or in Mies systems are yet fully operational yet. So this is a very interesting topic to have a follow-up after, let's say, one year of operation. Yes, but to highlight what Eva just said that this second life battery has already been replicated in Gothenburg in a real estate building that is not within the project so maybe that could also be part of that second webinar or an upcoming thing because it's really inspiring and also bringing some new aspects as Eva said that it's not exactly a copy of what's being demonstrated here in Iris but a development of that. So it's a lot of good learnings, I think, key takeaways because the people involved in the other projects in that replication, I'm pretty sure that they do this because they're not doing it for fun. They do it because it's good for them. It's like good business in the end. Yes. Thank you, Ulika. I have a question regarding second life batteries. I mean, it's maybe deviating from what you're talking about but on one side we have really practical application on second life batteries waiting to get, let's say, data out of it which is perhaps strangely needed. Let's say for at least the wider community and maybe industrial people might have what they need. Anyway, the question is, is there any task in the project which addresses, let's say, the wider scope and the wider ecosystem around second life batteries? So my thinking is, we'll be talking about it might be good to have reused these batteries from the vehicles, et cetera, but I mean, there are regulations on which forces a battery, let's say the automobile industry and battery producers to recycle most of the batteries and which for them is already in obligation. So they already have a second life going on and moreover, there are many research going on in which revamping, chemically revamping the second life batteries, they make them as performing as new ones. So this second life is already a repurposing of them. So there might be other ways to explore instead of just saying, I take out my car, the battery from my car, I put it on a rack, I connect it to a control system and raise a nice inverter and use them for a stationary application. Is there any task or any partner or anyone that works on this, let's say more general reflection, more systemic type of vision on second life batteries? No, in terms of task in the project, no, there isn't any task related to this. Okay, thanks. I was just wondering. Is there any other question? Okay, so we can finish the workshop here. We will upload the video in the Iris website. Thank you all for your effort and we'll keep in touch and discuss in another workshop the findings of the operation of the battery and the storage systems. Thank you all and stay safe. Bye, bye. Thank you very much, bye.