 So I want to welcome everyone to the cross-community panel discussion on mentorship. We have representatives from different open-source communities here today. We have Daniel, he is from the endless OS Foundation and is a GNOME developer. Emily joins us from as an open SUSE contributor and Omari joins us from the document foundation and of course you all know Marie Norton who is here as the Fedora community action and impact coordinator or Fcake. Please put a lot of questions in the Q&A for our panel. Panel sessions are way more fun when they're interactive. So I do want to start by letting all of our panelists introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about how your community participates in mentorship as a practice, whether it's formal programs or informal. And for this part I will just sort of go in order and then after that we'll sort of free for all. So Daniel, why don't you go and get us started? Hello, hello, my name is Daniel García Moreno. As Ben says, I'm working right now at LES Foundation and I'm contributing in the GNOME community. And about mentorship, I started in 2018 doing some mentorship, ready with some code and already with GNOME. Yeah, I don't know how much should I extend. That's enough or should I talk more? That's a good starting point. Okay, let's go to Emily. I'm Emily Garnier. I have been with open SUSE for about a year, maybe almost a year and a half now. And I have been contributing a lot with the community program with them. And I have recently been learning how to do some packaging. So I guess I've almost been being mentored, I suppose, by some of the other contributors. And I have been working with Douglas DeMau and to work with the Google Summer of Code program and get that up and running for this year for open SUSE. Great, thanks. Elmarie? Yes, I'm Elmarie Laho Kangas and I've worked for the Document Foundation, so the custodian of Libre Office for a few years now. And I'm like a generic mentor. I introduce people to all the different aspects of the project. And I've been a Google Summer of Code admin for a few years. And in TDF, we employ people for the specific areas like design, documentation, the C++ programming. But I act like as this go-to person for anyone who is interested in contributing and I can do introductions in all the areas. And some of them I'm more strong in and I can continue mentoring for a longer time. Okay, and last to Marie. Cool, yeah. I'm Marie Norden. I'm Fedora's Community Action and Impact Coordinator at CAKE, as Ben mentioned. I've personally done mentorship through outreach since Summer of 2020. And I'm just doing my fourth session of mentorship right now through that. I also help coordinate our internship programs as part of my job at CAKE. So we've done outreach as I mentioned. We've also done GSOC for the last two years. We're working on it. They've made some changes and we didn't necessarily catch up. So we're going to try again for next year's GSOC. But we also have a few methods of more informal mentorship in Fedora, such as our joint CAKE, which is just a group of people waiting to introduce people to different parts of the project. And we have some more other formal mentors, mentorship programs in our projects, such as like packaging sponsors and ambassador mentorship. So I think that's most of the same thing. Okay. So the first question that we had was, what are the benefits and bottlenecks in the way that your organization, your project currently does mentorship? And we'll toss that out to whoever wants to go first and then add in other thoughts as we go. Well, I could say something. This is kind of an interesting period of time as I've kind of found a new way to approach the whole thing. And I see that the traditional free and open source way to present the opportunities for volunteers to new people is kind of antiquated. And it hasn't really taken advantage of like the experiences in the broader volunteer community. So like virtual volunteering is a thing that is done by others than just the FOSS community. So I found that this traditional way to just point to the documentation and just urge people to start and figure things out by themselves is very, it has a negative impact on the diversity. Like on the mental side, you have to have people who are very independent, who are self starters. And this rules out a large part of the people who could contribute, who are maybe not at the stage of like this learning independence at the moment they could be. Maybe they are younger. And I found that scheduling mentoring sessions and really reaching out to people and asking them to be interviewed. And having these continuous scheduled sessions has really been like an eye-opener for me. And I think that we had a bottleneck and I'm really happy that I understood this finally after like eight years of trying and trying in different projects, not only in LibreOffice. And I'm just really happy to explore this approach further and discovering what might be the bottlenecks in this. I'm not really sure what would be the problems in this because everything seems to be going quite well and logically. And I guess the bottlenecks are my own time because my own time is not unlimited. And also we recruit now through volunteer platforms, but maybe I could talk about it later and give some room for others to comment. Daniel, I saw a lot of head nodding from you. Do you want to add anything to that? Yeah, I think that the main bottleneck that I see, at least on the Genome community that is mostly volunteer, is the mentor time required for any program. It requires a lot of work from the mentors and it gives a few rewards for them. I mean, if you find the motivation, it's good. But it's really hard to motivate someone that is working on this project in their spare time to spend more time to define some tasks and to guide new people instead of spend this time working on the project itself. Because at the end, the mentorship is done by developers and what developers like is to write code not to, I mean, not everyone, but because there are different roles. But if you spend your free time writing code, you want to write code instead of spend time teaching someone. So the motivation, it's really difficult to motivate the current developers that has a few time to work on their projects to spend some time in these programs. Yeah, I think it can be hard to find someone who's willing and able to teach. There's a lot of people that are good at coding or good at developing, but aren't necessarily good at passing on those skills and explaining what they're doing to others. That's a completely different skill set to doing something, if that makes sense. I think one of the bottlenecks we have in Fedora is once people get that welcome, you know, join ticket and they make it through all of that. Those teams that are kind of waiting beyond that post don't necessarily have tasks that are well suited for beginners. So I think like kind of having that kind of stuff, either, you know, you have a tag on an issue or you're making sure that you're leaving the kind of easy fixes for somebody new to start getting familiar. Or intermediate fixes. Even that, right. So sometimes it's for us, you know, people who are more comfortable and knowing the systems like easier just get it done and out of the way, but trying to leave that some of those things that are crucial for other people. And also to add into the documentation like here's how you start as a newcomer, I think we could improve in both of those places. So I wanted to follow up on a couple of points that the panelists have raised. Elmery commented about changes in how the world has evolved and how open source projects aren't necessarily has the mentorship hasn't kept up with that. So what kind of changes have we seen in our communities in how they operate or in sort of the broader pool of humanity that we're trying to get to join? And how can we modify our mentoring practices to meet the needs of the current and future? Well, if you want, I could give some details on how I do stuff. So we use volunteer platforms. So we get exposed to this larger group of people who are interested in volunteering and they might not have any idea of free software. So it's really important in this case to give a proper introduction. I send an email where I give a little bit of details and ask to schedule a chat. Text chat is best, I think, because most people opt for it rather than a call. It's a bit uncomfortable distance, you know, and I use IRC for the chat, but anyway, you can use whatever you like. But I think it's actually nice that I send a text log of the chat via email after it's done. So they have the reference like of the first things. And when it's something that I'm not so strong with, like maybe documentation, I'm not involved in writing guidebooks and stuff like that. I only might have like one orienting session and then I direct them to the leader of the documentation team. And same for design, user experience. I might have a couple of chatting sessions to support them, but these teams have their own meetings. They have their own calls. But then quality assurance is something that I'm quite experienced in. So this is something that I can keep having these sessions. I typically have them like every two weeks. That's a good rhythm, I think. And I just wait for them to get a certain amount of experience. And then I introduce more difficult stuff like bisecting regressions, for example. And then after we are done with the advanced stuff, I might ask, are you interested in C++ programming, for example? And some people have taken this even as an opportunity to learn something completely new. And it's very nice to see that. And in the C++ field itself, I'm again not very experienced, but I'm still able to guide them in multiple sessions. Like talking about the build system, how to get things running and writing unit tests and accessibility. These are like the foundation blocks that I've chosen that I could introduce people to. And then I can point them to our actual C++ mentor. And people do enjoy this very hand-holding type of approach. So I have something to say on this one. It kind of ties into a different question you have here too. But it's sort of as far as changes that I've seen in the community. I think as Fedora has grown, there's more of a need for non-coding roles. Like more and more and more, we need more of that, right? So there's just so many different aspects to the community that really needs support. So I think changing the approach of like who we're reaching out to, how we reach out to universities and other like programs that might be kind of funneling people into tech, educating about that kind of stuff, the opportunities that are available. It would be great to see those areas kind of just as vibrant and providing just as much of a benefit for the people who are contributing to it. So one thing we have in OpenSussy is what we call the OpenSussy Bar, which is a Jitsi chat room as it were, which is a video chat that's kind of open all the time. I would suspect there's probably people in there right now. And you can kind of pop in any time. And there's been a lot of great interactions that have gone on there and a lot of people have gotten pulled into the community that way and stuff has gotten fixed in there and helped out. And just people ask, I've asked even questions of, hey, how do I do this? I know this is simple. I know it's just a command I need to run. And I just, I can't figure it out. And somebody will always be like, oh, it's just this. And it's a lot easier sometimes than searching and searching and searching online or trying to ask on Discord or in an IRC chat room. And that's something that has helped out with OpenSussy a lot. It's kind of become a real mainstay. Hey, just pop in the bar and ask your question in there. There's usually somebody there, whether it's Nerfed or me or Neil or Honoralp or someone is usually hanging out in there who can help and really get stuffed on. There are other initiatives related to this that I think that also helps. There is the life coding sessions that some developers are doing at least. I know some in the GNOME community, for example, Emmanuel is doing mostly daily sessions on Twitch. He's writing GTK code, writing small applications or writing documentation. So that is real time sessions with people asking in the chat. And he, as the main contributor to the GTK stack, working on something and reducing the distance between the real developer and the people that want to contribute to our community. So if you see that there is no, that the people behind the project are real people and not special developers with high skills, with high superpowers. We are just, everyone is just normal people. Everyone starts from not knowing anything. So reducing that barrier is important too. So right now in the new, in this modern world, we have a lot of direct communication with video, with chat in person and waiting for the people to go to an IRC or to read the documentation. It's a lot more complicated that just find them in YouTube or other platforms in real time or face-to-face. And the scope of people able to contribute is bigger. There are a lot of room for contributing in other areas that are not just write code or technical. Yeah, I also do bug triaging sessions like screen sharing. I do this one hour at a time and it's a nice way. I can even schedule it so the time is right for some new contributor in their time zone. If they're in Australia, I can do it in my own morning time. I recommend it to everyone to try this in their strong area of contribution. So I also wanted to follow up on a point that Emily made. I think it was a really good one is that people who are good at doing a thing aren't necessarily good at teaching a thing. So how can we help the people who are good at doing the things become good teachers so they can be effective mentors in our project? It's a hard question. I think it's a meta thing, but mentoring, mentoring on mentoring. And I have started this approach myself. I asked one of my mentees to co-mentor with me because that's something I hope that, well, she's expressed interest in, but I hope that she can also learn from me. But we're working side by side, but I think it takes a personalized approach. You have to be able to talk to that person and kind of work through the fears that they might have about being a mentor and then give them some practical tools to do so. I think there are plenty of practical things. When it comes to more of the softer skills, human skills, talking with others in a patient way, I do think that there's going to be some folks who are naturally inclined and some who are less inclined to do so. And that I think is an event. That's like the toughest one, right? Because we can work through people's maybe issues or fears over it and give them the tools to do so. But if it's not your natural inclination, that's a tough one. Yeah, it's a tough question. Like if you have stage fright, how are you going to do live streaming of coding or something else? It seems quite a challenge. The Are You Speaking thing blocked the buttons. I couldn't tell which one was which. Daniel or Emily, do you have any thoughts on how we can turn people who are good at doing into being good at teaching? You know, that's a tough one. I don't know. I think it's one of those things that to some degree some people just aren't good at. Not everyone is meant to be a mentor as it is, as it were. You know, and that's okay. You know, I think that's something that that's okay. And there's some people that are maybe good at being a mentor for specific things, but not other things. And that's okay too, and that they can be a mentor for some people and not others. And that's okay as well. And that's probably important to remember as well. And that if being a mentor for something isn't something and something is not working, then they can switch and move on. Yeah, I think that it's really difficult to tell who is a good mentor or not or who could be. It's really difficult because it depends a lot on the person involved. It depends on the intern because some people could be a really good mentor for some kind of new commerce or new contributors. There are students, for example, there are university students and maybe other are good mentors for other people that doesn't have that background. With a different background from other fields that are not technical. I don't know, I think that it depends a lot on the person. And you need to have, I think that the main, the most important skill to be a good mentor could be the patents to be able to understand that. There are a lot of different people that have different skills and think different to you. So you only need to show what you know, try to teach what you know and do not expect anything from the intern. Just try to teach as much as you can and share what you have learned but not waiting for the people to do what you can do or what you were able to do in the same position or because the background of the people is really different and people from different cultures have different levels of time or technical background or anything. The thing is that there is, yeah, right now there is a lot of people around the world in these mentors and you need to be able to understand that it could be very different from one intern to another one. And it's not bad, it's not, it's not that someone that can do a lot of code, it's better than others that doesn't do a lot because the goal, the final goal of this, at least this summary of code and reach that is what I have been participating. The final goal is to teach the interns and to bring more people to the community. So if that goal is a complete, it's a real success and at the end the project is just the path, not the final goal. That's a good pivot into a question we've had asked a couple of different ways but I guess to summarize, what are some good practices for keeping those mentees in sponsored programs around in your community long term and what are some things we could do better there? I would really like to know that because I think that's a mystery and yeah, we've made efforts to reach out, like even just giving the students time to rest after GSOC and then contacting them like maybe at the turn of the year or something asking, hey, would you be interested in doing some more work? Well, now GSOC was more limited, you can only do it twice but anyway, I think it's very challenging and I would like to hear ideas. I have ideas for this one and I have my personal approach, kind of like a more broad thing. So my personal approach, which I kind of talked about in the intro session is when I'm doing formal mentorship through Outreachy, I kind of like, I know that I'm coaching them and imparting knowledge but I also look to it as like a future Fedora friend, right? So I am kind of approaching that person as someone that I hope to be friends with, right? So I think like fostering that kind of bond with the mentee really actually helps them stay with the program, right? Because you have a connection, I care about them after working with them for three months straight and it also ties back to Fedora's foundations of friends. Separately, I have this theory called RISE or framework I guess and so it's recognition, incentive, support and empowerment. And so I think it's a combination of these factors that can really sustain somebody and can, you know, bring them or inspire them to stay involved in Fedora. I also think that, like, especially that incentive, like I think that there's, they need to have an incentive to stay involved, right? So whatever you can provide in that way, whether it's professional development, you know, more professional development outside of a formal program or something like travel opportunity or swag. I know it's been difficult with COVID, but we just heard from our mentees in one of the last panels that something that really drives them to contribute is, hey, we want to go to flock. We want to have this chance to travel and meet up with other Fedorans. So I think that there's some concrete things and then there's some more esoteric things like empowerment, like giving a mentor or mentee like some responsibility in your community after they have kind of shown that they're able to do that. It gives them a sense of ownership and, from my own personal experience, a sense of professional fulfillment that I had not previously had before I felt that in Fedora. Any other thoughts on the topic? Yeah, I think that it's really hard to keep the collaboration after these kind of programs all depends on the project, but it's really hard. In my experience, it's really, I always see returning contribution from people that were in the community before the internship. So these people were part of the community before and just did the mentorship, the mentor program as part of their studies or something like that, but they were in the community before. It's really hard and these programs that pays money for a period of time, it's really hard to keep the people contributing in the project without the money motivation after the program. I think that, yeah, if you were doing this for money before, why would you continue doing that without the money motivation? So it's really hard. So yeah, I don't know how to keep people in the community involved. You need to give them some motivation like personal motivation or professional motivation so you can keep the contribution or maybe make some friends and keep the people. Enjoying these kind of events or personal events. I think friendship is really important is that making friends within the community and becoming really involved and feeling like you're a part of the community is really important. So it's not like I just contributed to whether it's no my four door or open Suzy or whoever LibreOffice or endless or whatever the project is that it's important to feel like you didn't just contribute but you are part of it that you know some of the other people and not just your mentor but some of the other people within the project. And that other people within the project make you feel welcome and like you're a real part of it so that when your period of mentorship is over, whether that was three months or six months or however long it was that it's not like I'm just done and I want to move on. But well I got my my pay period is done now but I still want to keep contributing I want to keep working on whatever it was that I was working on or I want to work on something else or maybe I've already started working on something else maybe somebody said hey you should try and work on this with me too. I know you're being paid to work on whatever but do you have time to work on this too. You know, you're you're that's part of free software is that a lot of things we all work on for for fun or for volunteering. It's not that we get work we work on it just to get paid to do so, but because we want to. So I think that's really important that you make sure that they feel really welcome and like a part of the wider community, and not just as your mentee. But you make sure that they meet other people within the community as well. Yes that's that's a great point. One of the things that I thought about as you were all answering that question is it seems like we don't necessarily know that well how we're retaining people, which leads into the question of how are you tracking progress and success and mentorship programs what sort of metrics. Are you collecting or do you wish that you could collect. I wish I had an answer for you and I have tried to look around the last day or two and find an answer for you for open Susie and maybe maybe someone in chat will correct me maybe Doug or Neil or someone has a better answer for you, or for all of us. But I can't find a great answer for that. So, yeah. Yeah, at TDF we have this nice construct that people can join as members in the foundation when they are contributors and then the membership is renewed. Yearly if they want to continue and this is kind of a mechanism that keeps track of who is doing stuff. Obviously you don't have to join, but this gives an opportunity for some metrics and we also employ marketing people who do the statistics of what's going on. Even sometimes what happened this month like this general overviews and it includes also like localization community and local marketing events stuff like that. Myself, I'm not really big in like driving my own work through metrics. I'm just having this constant feeling of what's going on and what should we concentrate on at the moment. I'm not really using the metrics myself so much. So, I think we have metrics available to us that actually would be pretty useful and what I'm thinking about is our join sake repo. The join team opens new tickets for interested contributors so those are people just beyond just making an account they have actually gone to this group and said hey I'm interested in contributing. I think if we took a closer look at the join sake ticket repo and also maybe looked at what information we're gathering right and then I know that they do follow-ups on the tickets and then eventually close them. But I'm wondering can we then do like a three month follow-up with the people who have specifically said I'm interested in contributing and say like, you know, are you still contributing? Are there any blockers? Can we help you remove those blockers? But I think it's an important question because I think one of the goals coming up is to double our contributors. So, I think we should probably think about this harder and in a more concrete way. So, what I've heard from answers to a couple different questions is that, you know, successful mentorship is really about relationships. And, you know, talking about like following up with people as they join and, you know, checking in with them over a period of months as they contribute and become familiar in the community. So, how do we scale our mentor pool to handle, you know, that influx of people and do a good job of retaining them as contributors in our community? I would say with money because I wouldn't be doing this at this scale if I wasn't getting paid. I'm honest. I started this as a volunteer. I did like I entered the volunteer platforms before I was getting paid. But this is really like locking my calendar down in a crazy way. So, I'm chatting with people in the morning, in the evening. I have to really put limits to my own like schedule as well. So, I think funding is the way. Yeah, I think that funding is really important because it will give a boost to all of these. But it's also important that they're recognizing the people involved in this, some kind of, I don't know, to say thank you or to say that you are doing something because at least on my environment, it's like it is not important or not relevant. This part of the community is not important. The important part is the technical part. But this is like for, I don't know. I think that that is the reason why there is too few people proposing projects and doing this mentorship because it's not recognized. It is not something that you will put down in your curriculum like I'm really proud of being mentorship of 10 people during eight years or something like that. So, I'd really like when someone in the community say thank you for your work. Just that because I'm doing something and I'm thinking that maybe no one is looking what I'm doing or it's just for me and for the mentee, the intern that is learning or earning some money. There is a lot of people in the community and. Some recognition would be nice. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that this is, that is important, at least for me. For me, it's important to get some recognition at some point because it motivates me to do that again for the next year. I think it's like, oh, sorry. Sorry. I was saying that just one thank you could motivate one person to come back and contribute again. I was going to add that I think we should make it easier for mentor for potential mentors to get involved and provide like a guide of like. These are the lightweight options for mentorship. These are the medium weight. These are the heavy weight so that people can like kind of warm their warm themselves up to it and kind of be able to see what others are doing learn from them. I'm just like we do with plenty of other skills that we use in our communities. And then they might feel more confident. So what I'm saying is let's improve our documentation. Absolutely. And you know, I think it might be it might be good to remind people that you don't have to mentor alone, that you can be co mentors and that two or even three people can mentor one person at the same time. You know, you don't have to be a single person mentoring a single person. There can be two or even three of you mentoring a single person and tag teaming so that it doesn't always have to be you doing the meetings and you can take the load off of each other and and go back and forth and that can help tremendously. You know, and and it's also important to remember that mentors have to be somewhat flexible as well. And in order to be a mentor you have to be open to the fact that you're going to do some learning as well. I think and that is perhaps the most important thing that mentors have to remember is that your mentee is going to teach you things as well. That we are all always learning and that there will be things that your men your mentee will teach you. They might be small things but they will happen. Yeah, that's that's that's one of the reasons that why I am mentoring almost every year because it isn't it is for me. It motivates me to contribute to the project and to do something that maybe I will not do it by myself. So I propose as a project and let the intern to try to do that and during that process I learned something and it motivates me to continue contributing. And all this during the program time because I get the compromise to do that so I should do that. So it's a way to to to spend more time on project that I want to spend more time. And without that it's really easy to to to forget about it. So one question that came in from the audience I think maybe was inspired by some of the comments about you know people joint doing an internship because it's paid and they're not so interested in sticking around later. How can we make people more interested in free and open source software communities more generally as part of the mentoring process and you know it maybe get them interested. Not as like continuing with the project they interned with but in another project somewhere else in the community. Yeah. Indeed this is something that at least I don't know. I don't know if the people that comes and contribute during a RITI program after that contribute to a different community because I don't attract this person profile. I if they don't come back to my project I don't know exactly but I'm sure that maybe some some of the people that maybe didn't come back to the same project but they contribute in a different way in a different project. So yeah it's it's really difficult to to to track that because the the impact it's not something direct something that just happened after the after the after the program it could happen two years after that or or maybe five years because. After some I don't know job job change or something like that the people come back. So it's really difficult. Maybe maybe keeping track of the people in social media and in other platforms could help so getting more data could be relevant. One thing if we think about GSOC it's not only the reward money but it's also the experience that you can put in your resume. I think in some countries this is very important as maybe their higher education is not that evenly developed and some companies might even rely on these open source contribution metrics. So they expect these junior developers to have this experience and I think like having this this opportunity to boost your resumes is a nice way even outside these mentorship programs. For example in these volunteer platforms. I think it's quite a common motivation for people and you can obviously say that you can write this letter of recommendation if they want that or they could just join like our foundation and have it in the resume in that way. So I'm not sure exactly what the question is but I think it was about connecting with other communities so I think like these types of events or go ahead then. I'd say it's about getting people who weren't necessarily joining the mentorship program because of their interest in open source to become interested in open source. Okay well I think like that sometimes like you have to connect with them on the things outside of those skills in order to retain them right with the different things we talked about as far as like friendship and networking and providing those opportunities. I'll also often like follow up with people and see if I can assist them. Like Omar was mentioning the letters of recommendation but I check in to see what they're doing and I will invite them to work on specific projects like I'll say hey we're spinning up this event and I think you know your art skills or your coordination skills or whatever would be a great fit so often like giving that personal invitation. Participate beyond just the internship and really personalizing it for people is sometimes I feel it takes us the extra mile or kilometer. Yeah I think if you can just by staying in touch and continue to reach out occasionally and and say hey how are you what have you been working on. Are you interested in working on this or that can be key especially if you haven't seen them in your community for a while and see if they're still involved or interested in becoming involved can be key you know. And that goes for to go back to some of the other questions about keeping people involved in your community. If you have someone who was contributing regularly and sort of drops off the map to it never hurts to reach out and say hey how are you what what's going on. Is everything OK and and you know and just reaching out and touching base and and seeing if they need help with something or something happened and and see if something's up. You know sometimes people just need a little a ping and as it were to have encouragement to come back and continue to contribute. Reminder that they were being that they were noticed as it were that they were that their contributions were appreciated and noticed and all of that. Sometimes when that doesn't happen people feel like no one cared no one noticed that they were missing and that sort of stuff. OK well we are basically at the end of the hour. So I thought I'd go around real quick and give each of our panelists the opportunity in a sentence or two to give us any parting thoughts they had that maybe they hadn't had a chance to say. So I'll start with Ilmari. Well yeah the previous question was actually about how to get people interested in FOSS specifically so I'm not sure if we can brainwash people into free software fanatics. So I think just keeping them involved and having them have this internal realization of what this is about. It's a nice way. Yeah Emily. Yeah I mean I kind of I agree with Ilmari that it's just it's important to remind people that free software is important and that all of your contributions matter and that everyone's contributions matter. Daniel. Yeah I think that it's also important to remember why we start to contribute to free software or to our community and try to share that with the new people and try to engage people with the same motivation or possibly the same interest. So if you do this for fun try to make it fun for other people. And Marie. Cool so I guess my parting thought is I'd like to strengthen the relationships we have between the community. I think like just from the work I've done as a community manager in the last couple of years I see that it really excites contributors who are part of our community when they see Fedora collaborating with OpenSUSA and all different communities going to different events. And I think it just strengthens us overall and I'd like to see it touch on this mentorship thing again and how can we help each other with this kind of stuff. So always happy to be contacted and to talk about this more because it's something I really care about. Okay. Well thank you to all of our panelists. This is a great discussion and of course thank you to the audience for your questions and your comments in the chat. Thank you to the organizers for putting together a terrific inaugural Fedora Mentor Summit.