 But let me first ask Amirah, do you believe that they are born or made? Well I think both cases are true because like we've seen some cases whereby we have seen people who are into leadership because either they come from a family or maybe historically from ancestral line which has some leadership traits. Even tracing back to the Bible we've seen we hand families which were so much into leadership and they are also made because we see we have some program of mentorship whereby maybe when you have somebody who is a leader who is so much into maybe serving the people and together mentorship you get to learn from the person then you easily become a leader. So both they are made and they are also born. I don't know whether being born in a family where leadership is... Equates to being a leader. But I think what my friend here is saying is that then you're socialized to leadership. So then it may not be you're born a leader but you're socialized by your family and the people around you to be a leader and then so you find you may not have been born with strong qualities for addition and attributes for a leader but because you're socialized that way you have no choice. Your father was a leader, your grandfather was a leader, your uncle was a leader so the only thing you know around your environment is leadership. So that is why I say you can be born with those qualities but you can also be socialized. You can be socialized. I found the question very interesting considering your background in military as well. I used to be our former vice president Waikibaki's aide and I'd like to understand military are people who tend to take instructions not give instructions. So now that you're a member of parliament and you give instructions can you understand how the transition occurred? First for the military and I'm very glad to talk about the military because there's a lot of discussion about the military. Military is a profession like any other and it is not actually true that they just take instructions. Somebody in the military is giving instructions. In fact, this is where leadership is actually cultivated and you can say as we are saying also quite a bit of nurturing to leadership because everybody in the military starts from the bottom. If you're an officer you start as a second lieutenant then you grow to become a general. If you're a serviceman you start as a private then you can grow to become a warrant officer which is highest rank. So there's a lot of nurturing. So you start backing orders from the day you enter and you are also receiving orders. So it's not a question of just receiving orders you also give orders and therefore I would say contrary to the belief that maybe it was a messy transition or it's difficult to unseat I learned my leadership in the military and then in the politics it was just a question of mutating and just translating what I learned in the military. Mutating and translating. I like the words. Alright, I think we can move on to our next statement here. We have a leader provides vision for generations to come. A politician is concerned about the next election. So according to you guys, what's the difference? I think also when we talk about politicians versus the leaders there is also a lot of misconceptions because there's nothing like this size fits it all. There's nothing like this is the common belief for all politicians or maybe for all the leaders. Because we have hand situations whereby we have seen politicians actually we're not quoting attention, we're not even creating followers. We've seen politicians who are actually mentoring other people into leadership. So I think one thing we need to get is that being in politics also does not guarantee that you are a leader because leadership is not about the followers. But I believe leadership is more about even mentoring other leaders as opposed to creating just followers and being seen as you are the most public person. So I think that's my opinion on matters of that politics and the followers. Okay, so let me hear from Monica before me. She's been my response. It looks like it's just about to come in. I don't know. I can say maybe context. It depends on the context. Often in a society like Kenyan's society and most African societies, politicians, leadership it's seen as one thing which is distinctly not because a politician is involved with the activities of politics which is the struggle for power. And a leader is concerned much more about after the power, then what next? And then now a leader is involved in the long-term process of planning and strategizing for a people and a country or a region as a whole as opposed to a very short-term interest which can be described as the political activity. So this is a very distinctive thing and I think it should be identified that politicians are not necessarily leaders and leaders are not necessarily politicians but either one of those could be both, yes. Okay, okay, Mashimi, but now let's hear. Do you consider yourself a politician or a leader in this particular scenario? Thank you Hilda. I think let me start by how I ended up being a politician. I ended up being a politician because I worked for the president and I discovered he doesn't like gossip, he doesn't like too much talk politics, he doesn't like the usual talk of politicians, he actually didn't like it. He wanted to talk about an issue, he wanted to talk about a solution to a problem and I said, if this is what has been all his life as a politician, then I can make it because again, I also get, I tire with a lot of bickering and gossiping and all that. And what I learned from that is that you have to be a leader first and then you seek a political platform to express your leadership. So to me, the politics is just a platform where I can express my leadership, whatever goes and all that. Because without going to public office, then I cannot access my people of better south to a system. So I have to seek the platform and play the game. Once the game is over, then I have to go back to leadership to plan for the long term strategies for the people of better south. So I see it as politics, it's just a platform for leadership. So it's not necessary that you have to compare the two. I see. So you're basically saying one is an instrument of the other. Absolutely. It means to an end. To a leadership. Okay, so we have one interesting one, which came from Monica by the way. If this one is, make sure you pay attention, this one is going to start up something. All right, so in order to be a politician, you must be ready to kill, steal and lie. This is according to political science. Okay, I don't know. Do I start with you or do I start with Annalisa? So do I give Monica a chance? Monica to tell us what she is. Yes, that statement is very philosophical, it is very academic, it is very scholarly, but it is what has been said of politics. It is what the early philosophers in politics put through. These are the Machiavelles, the Thucydides, then they put this across in order to make a good politician, you must be able to at least one kill, two steal, kill three. And that's the theory. And I don't know, maybe Mahesh Muah can tell us if this is... We have some of these qualities. Thank you. Thank you. You haven't killed yet. I haven't stolen yet. I don't intend to do all those things. I think his perception and build up of narratives. Obviously there are people in history who have misused power. And here we're not talking about actually leadership passing, we're not talking about politics passing, we're actually talking about people who seek power and then they feel constrained to do anything that they can to access power. From my side of point of view is that power comes with responsibility. And those who seek power, for the power's sake, then you find they are prepared to do many, many things, even unparalleled things to access power. But if you are a leader, then you also recognize that power comes with responsibility. And therefore, the more power you have, the more constraints you have. I mean the most powerful person in Kenya, the president, is severely constrained by the law, by the perception, by parties, by his friends. He gets a lot of constraints to even access that power. So if he is a leader, then he feels constrained and he has to maneuver his way around the constraints, around power. So if somebody is just looking for power, for self-expression, then those are the kind of people who go into killing another kind of thing. So it's selfishness that is the drive according to you. I would even call them my leaders, I don't think they are leaders. Kaviria, what do you have to say about this? Do you believe that a politician should possess all three of these traits or one of the three in order to stay afloat? It depends because that statement, as she said, it's philosophical. But there is a reason why it was put across, maybe based on the past experiences which we have seen in politics. But looking at even the scenario in Kenya, as now we're trying to put it into context, what is said, what sacrifice, what extent do politicians make for them to gain power? So because we've seen previously politicians, they do all sorts of things from trying even to take people's lives because we've seen when we come to one's elections, we have been having so many cases of kidnapping, whereby even the rivals or even the opponents are being kidnapped. We've had of cases like what we had in 2017 by one of the, in some constituencies, the opponent was actually killed. Another one was kidnapped and found after some days. And also maybe from his own country, we've had of cases whereby also the speaker went maybe missing or whether it was a game or not. But it's things which we've seen with politicians. And also there's a lot of investment which people make for them to access power. We've seen people leaving some very high-flying jobs in corporates, then coming to politics and then people ask, what is it that is in these politics that people are willing to go that extra mile and we have not seen that leadership push. Either this person want to protect some loot or either this person want to push some personal agenda. So I think it's something which we've seen, but it does not mean necessarily that you need to have all those qualities. So it also matters and also maybe what somebody is ready to put to get that power. Okay, Mahashimi, would you have anything to add before I say what it is I need to say? Perhaps the only thing I could add is that when we go to elect leaders, we need to be careful because at the electioneering period there's a lot of confusion. People come with all manner of promises, all manner of things. They offer money, they offer all manner of things. That if you elect a leader because of money, because of false promises, then you're stuck with him. You're stuck with him for the next five years, he's a parliamentary seat. Therefore people should be very, very careful and examine why is this person coming to this platform? Why is he coming to us now? Perhaps he's been absent. You should interrogate and find out why. If it's just for the sake of power, please deny him because that will not help him. Okay, interesting, sorry. Acabaria has brought something up which I found interesting. You used to be the former chairman of the National Cereal and Produce Board and currently they're having a lot of issues when it comes to food security and scandals are just looming in that area and we'd like to understand as a leader now that you're out of that particular scenario but do you feel like you can still weigh in on some of these issues? Do you feel like they follow you behind? Do you feel like the people who are here before are the reason for this mess? It means most Kenyans say that. Do you feel like you had any part to do with it? And also once you're the chairman, how do you take care of interests of yourself? The farmers and the cartels and the law that be, the powers that be, how do you find that balance? Thank you. I think Kenyans remember that province of National Cereal and Produce Board are historical, not just recent history. They ran way far in the history of Kenya. And one just googling you will see that there's been scandal after scandal around Maze and around National Cereal and Produce Board. When I arrived there, I had no idea how big the problem is. The problem is very big and part of the problem is actually structural that the parasitic functions under the minister of agriculture and there are many things that they are assumed to be doing and they don't do. It's done in the ministry and then it's assigned. For instance, big contracts, a fertilizer for instance, those are big contracts. Five billion shipments in about three weeks and it's finished. It's a very, very big contract. Those are actually negotiated at the ministry level. The Cereal Board is just assigned and then they look for money and put in the contract and deliver and that is it. So when things go bad, nobody knows the background of this contract where it was assigned, who negotiated it. They just assume it's a Cereal Board. That's not one of the problems that I had to deal with. And at that time there was still problems of and do farmers actually get the benefits of the fertilizer, do actual farmers get the benefits of the purchases of maize and I had to step in personally. I used to go around the country. I used to go and check up. We used to have meetings with the ministry and I thank God while I was there. That is why I was able to fed off the cartels that are filtering the fertilizer and also be able to sell maize, to buy maize from the right people. But listen, Hilda, I think what would require the National Cereal Board is a paradigm shift. It's a complete change of how business happens. They have to be given independence. But you cannot do things on the side. I assign them to Cereal Board and then blame them. And that is why even the blame doesn't go far because actually people know that actually most of them did do it. I'm not trying to defend them, but in many cases they don't do the big things. So I think they need to be as a surgery, they need to paradigm shift, just detach Cereal Board, let it do its business so that they can be blamed for what they do. But nothing is following me because I did the best I could at that time and I survived five years and there was no such scandal. They were filtering on that and I appeared in media many times catching people who are diverting fertilizer and things like those. So it was just vigilance that I did. But the structures are wrong and that's a big thing. So that's something that if they don't sort that out we are going to continue to see these problems. We're going to have problems, we are still going to have problems. Okay, I think at least now we've gotten a bit of an explanation on what we could assume happened with the NCPB. There was also something else that was brought up, which is that you should check the kind of leaders that are being elected. Are they bribing voters or what have you? When you won your seat in the year 2017, it was petitions. And the complainant said that you were bribing the voters. With 500 shillings and he actually accused you of witchcraft. So I would like to understand as a leader, how do you deal with this? This is a paradox of leadership. The person who petitioned my election was position 7. He was even the second or third or fourth, he was position 7. And the kind of things he came up with, were even a decrease in court. And this is what Mr. Cabrera was saying, that there are people who go out of their way and they spend a lot of money. And they are assured, they talk to other people, they are assured, this is yours. So when it doesn't happen, they are in shock. And they don't know what to do, they don't know what to say. Probably they have run off from money, so they run to court to save face. And I think this is what happened, trying to save face. So they said all manner of ridiculous things. And even the judge kept on asking him, then even if you are given all the votes that you are asking for, you don't even come close to number 4. How are you going to resolve this? But it was saving face. And this is why I say, let us examine who is this, who is offering himself for leadership. And it was simple. The reason why he was even rejected, he doesn't even come from the area. So when people, they took money in the first instance, then after some time they discovered, oh, who is this? They discovered this fella doesn't even come from here. He just recently bought a piece of land and here he is. He doesn't know us, he doesn't know the area. Sometimes he goes to campaign across the border. He goes, he busts the constituency. Because he doesn't know the border. He is doing campaigns in Ucambani. And all that kind of thing. You cannot attack him so much. But I'm just saying that, yeah, I was taken to court. It was quite an experience. Because then you have to fight perception. And thank God, thank God. I stayed in my cool, waited for a thing, and the verdict came that there was no setting. Yes. And congratulations for your win. Thank you. Okay, okay, okay. Let's hear from Kiberia and Monika. When it comes to saving face, like he's talking about leadership, how do we know? Like somebody is genuine with us or not? What are some of the qualities that you think should be outstanding about a leader? One of the things that we should look out for, and Mahesh Mua is very correct, that we should be more vigilant as individuals, as the citizens, as the people who vote, is a track record. We should be curious enough to want to investigate, where has this person been? Who was he? And how had he performed where he was? What are his issues with integrity? Are there cases of him? Are there even rumors? We should not be at a point where we entertain, even just a rumor of someone lacking in integrity and still being in office. So this kind of vigilance is not really so hard to come across. It's just a matter of, with the age of social media and all this technology that is available, it is so easy to find out about a person's track record, find out about their personality, who the errors are people. And it is quite easy for people to do that. But I think short-term gains, you know, blind people, especially if you are young and desperate, have no job, and the short-term gain of 500 feelings, it is very alluring, although someone may not understand it who is very stable where they are financially. But for someone who is destitute in the streets, has no job and there's short-term, you know, a short-term success to be achieved in that 500 book, it is something that will actually make someone change their mind. And so the most important thing is to work on those root causes of why people are not concerned about, you know, the things that matter, the character of a person, the integrity. So what are these root causes? And it is systemic factors, structural factors. This lack of employment, lack of offering, quality education that will spark growth, innovatingness, and all these things. So this is what is really lacking. It is not that we're not seeing a good politician. It is that the base structures are not strong enough to support even a strong, knowledgeable, and independent-thinking citizen. I think that's the problem, yes. Okay, Kiberia. Well, for me, on these matters, I have two examples, maybe practical examples to give. One, back in my county, Meru County, the current member of parliament for Gambesaut, Honorable John Paul Muiregi, is just somebody who was elected without any money. Just a very humble guy just in college and was really competing with the big-moneyed people. But now when you look, it's not something which is common. That's why we put it as history. Because in Kenya, the kind of scenarios we have is whereby it's the rich, the famous, and the people from maybe the big families and big background who are elected into offices, irregardless of the atrocities and the things which they have done in the past. Remembering some time back, there is this common professor, Pierlo Lomumba, who died in, I think, Parkland's constituency as a member of parliament, and he lost Trebley. Because his campaign platform was on integrated issues. And when you read his book, he said that he came to realize that in Kenya, the voters do not look at the issues of integrity. They are not looking at the person as maybe the type of leadership you want to give. Because if you're not giving them money, if you're not giving them maybe false promises, if you're campaigning on a honest platform, then maybe there's high chances that you'll be elected out. You won't get any votes. Wow, I would actually like the MP in the studio to comment on that. So Kenyans, we are the problem. It's not even the politicians. Exactly. Because from what I'm hearing from Cambodia is he saying that Kenyans want someone who will lie to them. When somebody builds their campaign on integrity, they don't go anywhere. They don't want someone to lie to them. Do you think that there is a problem with the electorate of this country? Well, it is a problem. But I think it will be not right to generalize in that manner. People want to hear issues. But sometimes when one creates a lot of hype around an individual, and then goes for money and the other things, then you have a problem that he pulls a crowd and the fellow who has substance does not have the crowd. Now, so I think for when you go to the platform, then you have to have the skill to mix so that you have to say a bit of what they want to hear. Let me tell you. Let me tell you one of the things that was in this campaign, which I did not do in the campaign 2013 because I ran twice. This is my last campaign. We did a lot of singing and dancing. Hype. Just traditional dances in songs that people know and they sing along. We did a lot of that. Every meeting was a happy occasion. And that happy occasion then allowed me to say what I needed to say. I needed to sell my policies and if they get bored we sing some more. So one has to be tactful. But if you are just humming, people at different stages, if you are just on policy and programs and things like that, people at different stages, unless you sing to your straight or do something to your straight, then you can't carry everybody. You are only talking maybe to a few professionals that understand what you are saying, but the rest of the people are wondering what is going on. So I think it is a bit of both and I think the politician has to have the ability to mix his issues with the content that the people are used to. Like the dance, the better dance. Balance, being able to blend in with the people. Okay.