 Good morning everyone and welcome to you all those of us joining here at the Institute's beautiful headquarters at 31 Blystreet. Also welcome to viewers watching us today on the ABC News channel. I'm Michael Fully Love the director of the Lowy Institute. I hope you had a joyful Easter or a happy Passover or that you're enjoying a peaceful Ramadan. Let me acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which the Institute stands, the Gadigal of the Eora Nation. I pay my respects to their elders past and present. Let me also acknowledge my chairmen Sir Frank Lowy and the many members of the Institute's board who are here today. There are also a number of other dignitaries including the P&G High Commissioner, the Latvian Ambassador and the Ukrainian Ambassador. And the last time that Frank Lowy and I were in this building in this room together in fact on the 6th of October we were with Vassil's assistance hosting President Volodymyr Zelensky the Lion of Kiev. So let me just say welcome Ambassador and Slava Ukraine. Ladies and gentlemen welcome again to this special event in this our 20th year with the Chief of the Defence Force General Angus Campbell AO DSC. Angus has had a distinguished and varied career. He entered RMC Duntroon in 1981 receiving his commission as a lieutenant in 1984. He served with the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment before passing selection for the SASR where he served as both a troop commander and a squadron commander. He commanded two RAR in Timor-Leste as part of the UN Transitional Administration for which he was appointed a member of the Order of Australia in 2003. He served as Chief of Staff to two CDFs Sir Peter Cosgrove and Sir Angus Houston a board member of the Institute who's also here with us this morning. In 2005 Angus left the military to take up a position as a senior public servant in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet before rejoining the Army in 2010. In 2011 he was commander responsible for all Australian forces deployed in the Middle East. He then served as Deputy Chief of Army. He oversaw Operation Sovereign Borders from 2015 to 2018. He served as Chief of Army before being promoted to General and then being appointed Chief of the Defence Force. As a leader Angus is quiet, humble, disciplined, resilient and strong. In other words he exemplifies many of the qualities that we like to see in the Australian Defence Force. Chris and I have been talking for some years about getting him to Bly Street to speak to the Institute and I'm now and I'm grateful that with the assistance of Sir Angus Houston we have him here in the Lowey Institute's 20th year. I'm also very pleased that Frank Lowey is with us at Bly Street today. We will talk more about the 20th anniversary of the Lowey Institute at the 2023 Lowey Lecture. But I would like to say while I have the lectern for the record that I've been very lucky to work with Frank and his family for the past 20 years I'm privileged to call him not just a boss but a friend and a mentor. Frank is one of Australia's leading business leaders, leading philanthropists and of course the founding Chairman of the Lowey Institute. So please let me call on my Chairman Sir Frank Lowey AC to welcome General Angus Campbell to the lectern. Thank you Michael, General Campbell, my colleagues on the board of the Lowey Institute. Ladies and gentlemen, it is really a pleasure for me being here welcoming General Campbell but it also marks a very important week in the life of the Lowey Institute. It was the weekend, Easter weekend, when I was able to secure this building and bought them during the weekend. I came back from the United States to find out what does a institute like this, how they do that and I learned a lot there and I had a colleague and he said to me, you need a building with Timberwolves in it. What happened? I found a building with Timberwolves in it. It's a very distinguished building and it's been our home now for 20 years and I hope for many, many years. I find that this institute is a very important institute. As you know, I travel around the world and wherever I am, the Lowey Institute is before me and I get a lot of compliments and rightly so. It's managed well, Michael does a good job, his colleagues are working very hard and we could rightly call ourselves as one of the best, one of the best think tanks in the world. It's not an easy thing to achieve but it was achieved because Michael has been with the institute from the day that we started and has been our chief executive for many years. So Michael, congratulations for the job that you do. General Campbell, wonderful you being here with us and of course the rest of the guests and I'd like to ask and talk to us for a little while and tell us all about what you want to tell us. Please. Chairman Sir Frank, Executive Director Dr. Michael Fulilove, your excellencies, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. It is a pleasure to be here today and thank you sincerely for the invitation. I also wish to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land upon which we meet, the Gadigal people of the Inora Nation and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I also acknowledge all those who serve or who have served in defence of country and nation in times of peace and war. Michael, thank you for very kind reflections. I hope to live up to them and to you both for your introduction but Sir Frank, thank you for the vision and the generosity that created the Lowy Institute. Without it, we wouldn't be meeting here and we wouldn't be celebrating your 20th year as an institute and everybody who is a member of the Institute my sincere congratulations to you. For 20 years now, the Lowy Institute has occupied an important place in Australian public policy life. Its role in shaping both the content and quality of our foreign policy and national suited bates can't be underestimated. Throughout these 20 years, the Institute has hosted numerous political leaders, public policy advocates and experts in foreign policy and international affairs. The Institute has provided a platform for some of the most influential and powerful thoughts and opinions on the times in which we live and how we might envisage our future in the Indo-Pacific and beyond. I also want to acknowledge the important research conducted by the Institute. From the publication of reports and commentaries on topics as diverse as nuclear proliferation, the utilisation of space, gender equality and regional fishing disputes to the creation of innovative research products such as the annual Asia Power Index the depth and breadth of the Institute's work is truly extraordinary. I have every confidence that the next 20 years of the Institute story will be similarly filled with great success and I look forward to engaging with its work into the future. Today I wish to speak about the international security environment and the ways that Australia and the Australian Defence Force in particular is responding. However, before I do, a note about the Defence Strategic Review which was announced by Prime Minister Albanese in August last year. Under the leadership of the Honourable Stephen Smith and Air Chief Marshal Serangus Houston, the DSR examined the ADF's structure, force posture and preparedness and defences investment prioritisation to ensure that we have the right capabilities to meet our evolving strategic needs. The DSR report was handed to the Prime Minister in February this year. Now the report and its recommendations are currently under consideration by government. So I hope you'll understand that it would be inappropriate for me to preempt the government's response. Turning to our strategic environment, it has deteriorated. This was recognised in the 2020 Defence Strategic Update and is a bipartisan view. Trends including large-scale military modernisation, technological disruption and multiplying climate risks continue. And the prospect of state-on-state conflict is less remote than it was. Military capability within the region of both range and lethality is challenging across all domains, sea, land, air, space and cyber. Additionally, the use of coercive statecraft, lawfare and influence operations in the grey zone between peace and war undermine the traditional understandings of the international rules-based order and test the thresholds of conventional military response. We live in an era and a region of great power competition. And an era, I think, that may last for some time. In response, the ADF has increased its presence in the Indo-Pacific, seeking to promote an environment conducive to our national interests. Our efforts are directed toward constructively shaping the environment, deterring conflict and maintaining the capacity to operationally respond as directed by government. This is done by our own efforts and by deepening engagement with allies, partners and like-minded friends, as well as by seeking to better understand those not of like mind. The most prominent and recent illustration of this engagement is, of course, the AUKUS program. AUKUS is not a new defence alliance. It's a trilateral partnership to deepen practical security technology cooperation with our long-standing and trusted partners, the United Kingdom and the United States. AUKUS is enhancing our military capability in areas most relevant to the emerging strategic environment in the Indo-Pacific and AUKUS partners have taken important steps towards implementing the two pillars, nuclear-powered submarines and advanced capabilities. This is one of many efforts through engagement to strengthen our region and our national security. I could similarly point to the Pacific Maritime Security Program through which we engage in capacity building with a dozen Pacific Island countries or the France, France, Australia and New Zealand arrangement that was instrumental in our combined response to the tropical cyclones that recently hit Vanuatu or our decades-long engagement with ASEAN and its member nations via training, exercising, studying and operating together in the region for the security of the region. As you know, Australian security and regional security are interdependent, so too security and prosperity, each affected to some considerable degree by the presence or absence of the other. With this in mind, the ADF and Defence more generally are necessarily a component of a much broader effort of Australian statecraft, in which all elements and instruments of our national power are harnessed to advancing Australia's interests within an interconnected and interdependent world, a world in which, to the extent possible, rules govern power, a world now under considerable stress. With the boundaries between competition, coercion and conflict becoming increasingly blurred, there is a need today for a greater integration of and nuance in the application of power. The ADF's approach to this increasing ambiguity is termed integrated campaigning and it involves military power being brought together with other elements of national power, be they economic, diplomatic, trade, financial, industrial, scientific or informational, and when direct by government, also combined with the military and national power of allies and partners. An integrated Australian Defence Force is more interoperable within the force and is a more interoperable force with partners domestic and foreign, operating together to combine effect. The success of integrated campaigning requires the national level mastery of these combined effects supported by enablers like intelligence and logistics. What is never integrated, of course, is sovereign decision, held by government to apply national power in any of its forms to the pursuit of Australian national interest. Nowhere is the stress in the international system and the international rules-based order more apparent than in the current desperate fight for survival by Ukraine against Russian aggression. That war, a long way away, obviously matters to Ukraine, to Russia's other neighbors who feel threatened and to Europe more generally. But I would offer that it matters to all small and middle-sized nations, each of whom needs international rules and norms more than the limited power that they wield. And the war also matters because its impact on key supply chains, especially food and energy, reminds us that in a globalised world, few conflicts are truly local. But most fundamentally, it matters because respect for sovereign territorial integrity is the cornerstone of our international system. 10 early lessons or perhaps reminders from the war in Ukraine are apparent and universally applicable. Will is paramount. The will to resist, to fight, to sacrifice, to innovate and to endure and the Ukrainian people have been magnificent. Leadership is essential. Give me ammunition, not a ride, galvanize a nation and a world. War unleashed rarely proceeds as expected. An enlarged and unified NATO wasn't part of President Putin's plan. War tends towards escalation. A great deal of thought and effort has gone into preventing it, thus far successfully. Munitions and material stock holdings will be insufficient, just in time supply chains fail. Military incompetence will be brutally punished on the battlefield. The Russian army has relearned this the hard way. No individual tactic or weapon is decisive. But combined all domains, sea, land, air, space and cyber operations will be most effective. And information is power. It's heartening to see Ukraine and its partners deny Russia a disinformation advantage. I'll finish by quoting two Russian sources that speak to the tragedy and the challenge faced by Ukraine and its supporters. The tragedy. Trotsky reminds us that you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. A sadly timeless reality that encourages preparedness. And the challenge. Stalin reminds us that quantity has a quality all its own and this war is not over. One response to this deteriorating strategic environment is the Orcas program, which in case you missed it and because it would be odd of me if I didn't, I'll briefly review. The optimal pathway for Australia to acquire conventionally armed nuclear-powered submarines has been determined and it is a significant moment for Australia's defence capability. Through that optimal pathway, Australia will transform its strategic posture, bolstering security and stability in the Indo-Pacific for decades to come. It is important to reflect upon the fact that Australia has successfully operated a potent and enduring submarine capability for many decades. Indeed the Collins class submarine remains one of the most operationally capable diesel-electric submarines in the world today. It will continue to be critical to our deterrence and defence capability in coming decades as we transition to nuclear-powered submarines. But in time, the Collins class submarine will lose the most critical characteristic of a submarine, stealth. The trends affecting our region demand stealth as well as higher levels of speed, range, manoeuvrability, survivability and endurance from our submarines, all characteristic of nuclear-powered submarines. Beginning this year, Australian military and civilian personnel will embed with the Royal Navy and the US Navy and subject to any necessary arrangements within the UK and US submarine industrial bases. This will accelerate the training and development of Australian personnel. As early as 2027, we expect to see UK and US establish a rotational presence at HMA Sterling in Western Australia an initiative known as Submarine Rotational Force West. This rotational presence will fully comply with Australia's long-standing position of no foreign bases on its territory. From the early 2030s, Australia will receive, subject to US congressional approval, delivery of three US Virginia-class nuclear-powered submarines. Concurrently, Australia and the UK will deliver SSN AUKUS. It will be a new conventionally-armed nuclear-powered submarine based on a UK design and incorporating cutting-edge Australian, UK and US technology. The UK will deliver its own SSN AUKUS in the late 30s with the first SSN AUKUS built in Australia to be in the water in the early 2040s. The optimal pathway will build Australia's ability to safely operate, own, maintain and regulate a sovereign conventionally-armed nuclear submarine capability. And it bears constant repeating. We will always be fully compliant with our international obligations. And we will not seek and do not want nuclear weapons. AUKUS will deliver more than nuclear-powered submarines, however. Pillar 2 of AUKUS is building an enduring capability partnership through the acceleration of advanced strategic capabilities. The six areas chosen for Pillar 2 will make the most significant contribution to future military capability. Undersea warfare, electronic warfare, hypersonics and counter hypersonics, advanced cyber, quantum technologies and artificial intelligence. With these capabilities, certainly they are extraordinary and they will fundamentally increase the lethality and the capability of the ADF. But nuclear-powered submarines and the advanced capabilities being pursued under Pillar 2 are insufficient alone to guarantee our national security. Ultimately, the success of the ADF in carrying out its mission and in crewing and utilizing the capabilities we're acquiring lies in the character of our people and the culture of our teams. They are at the heart of all that we do and they are the most important component of military capability. I'm committed to fostering and building an inclusive, respectful culture of ADF professionals committed to the defence of Australia and its national interests. However, to create the necessary conditions for this culture to flourish, it is essential that we acknowledge and confront those occasions upon which we have failed to live up to the standards we and you expect of our nation's defence force. That's why our work in response to the Afghanistan inquiry and the Royal Commission into events and veteran suicide is so important. And after two COVID years without migration, while the economy continued to grow to full employment, the ADF has to overcome a significant challenge to recruit, retain and grow our workforce. We are determined to meet this challenge and to be an employer of choice in order to attract the best possible talent from all backgrounds, regions and walks of life throughout Australia. To conclude, although the challenges facing us are many and the road ahead uncertain, I have faith and confidence in the men and women of the Australian Defence Force and defence more broadly. Each and every day in Australia and around the world are serving our nation with professionalism, courage and resourcefulness. As the story of the Lowy Institute demonstrates with the right vision, commitment and resourcing, anything is possible. I'm confident that the significant work underway in defence now and with our allies and partners, we are setting the conditions for the Australian Defence Forces success and for Australia's security and prosperity into the future. Thank you very much. General, thank you for those very wide-ranging and thoughtful remarks. I never thought I'd hear a CDF quote both Trotsky and Stalin in a speech, but thank you for doing so and thank you for agreeing to sit down and speak with me and also take some questions from our audience. Let me kick off with a few issues of the day, a couple of issues you didn't mention, but which I think are important to ask you about. Over the past few days, 100 classified Pentagon documents have been leaked on social media relating to the war in Ukraine as well as about US allies including South Korea and Israel. How concerned are you about these leaks from Australia's point of view? Michael, thank you. The issue of maintaining the security of information is critical to the development of national capability and to the trust and confidence across allies and partners. And I appreciate that this by-reports is a serious leak. It is being investigated seriously by US authorities and they are engaging with partners in order to better understand the potential consequences of that information being released into the public. I am not, obviously, as a military officer, someone who believes that all information should be free and open. I do believe there is a national interest in the protection of some information. And so in circumstances such as this where I am commenting based on the public standing here, where in circumstances such as this this is potentially a damaging release of material and it is something that I would in no way wish to encourage. Let me ask you about President Emmanuel Macron of France who was in China last week and you will have seen that on his way back to Europe he spoke to journalists and he made some interesting comments. He said that European countries must resist becoming America's followers when it comes to the PRC. He said that Europe must not get caught up in crises that are not ours. It seems that Mr Macron welcomes US support against Russian aggression in Europe but is not so keen on European support for US and Asian allies in the event of Chinese aggression in Asia. What did you think of President Macron's comments and did they make you reflect on the wisdom of AUKUS for example? Michael, thank you. You're going to appreciate I'm sure that as a military officer it is extraordinarily inappropriate for me and I will not comment on the issues raised by a president, a leader of a nation. I think that nations pursue their national interest and where that national interest is in common you can build partnerships, coalitions, alliance, arrangements that ultimately in terms of the military effect seek to deter conflict, seek to reassure partners and seek to be prepared in circumstances of conflict. I think that's about as far as I'm going to go. Let me ask you about the point that Macron was getting at then if not his comments. When he said Europe has to be careful about getting caught up in crises that are not ours and there's been a lot of discussion in Australia since the AUKUS announcement about this in relation to Taiwan. So perhaps I can ask you what is Australia's stake in Taiwan's freedom? Can I put it that way? Is that a crisis, a future crisis involving the war over Taiwan? Would that be a crisis that involves our national, directly our national interests? I think that's anything that undermines the security, the stability and the prosperity of the Indo-Pacific region in which we live is of interest to Australia. The question then might arise what particular circumstance or scenario enlivens what form of interest and in what form of response. But I think part of my comments with regards to reflecting upon the war in Ukraine is that there is no war that upon its commencement you can accurately predict how it will unfold. I encourage all parties to areas of international tension to find other ways to resolve that tension. Conflict is sometimes it may be necessary as the absolute large resort, but Shakespeare got it right when you unleashed the Dogs of War, you can't necessarily be confident to contain the outcome and as I say, a stable, secure, free and open Indo-Pacific for all nations is in Australia's interest. Alright, let me come to Aukus. You spoke a lot about Aukus and about the importance of the capability of the nuclear powered conventionally armed submarines. This will be the single biggest defense acquisition project in Australian history in terms of cost and complexity. We would be only the seventh country to deploy a nuclear propelled submarine fleet, the only one to do so without possessing nuclear weapons or a domestic nuclear industry. How confident are you as a country that we can pull this off? This is a huge whole of nation endeavor. You talked about will being paramount, that was one of the lessons you drew from Ukraine. Do you detect that will on the national will on Australia's part to pull this off? I do. I do believe we can do it. In fact, I am sure we can do it, but you're right, it is a national effort and a whole of nation effort. It is a significant industrial, scientific, educational and military uplift. We have partners who are committed to working with us, and I believe that Australia is a nation of both extraordinary opportunity, potential and capacity, and we can do this. What does it mean for the rest of the ADF and indeed for your service, the Army? Are there a danger of unbalancing the Defence Force by investing so much money and effort in one high-end capability? I am all three services, however I understand what you mean. What's most important in structuring and designing the Australian Defence Force is to ask the question what is needed for today and for the future security of our nation? There is no part of the Defence Force that is immune from scrutiny and consideration. And as technology evolves or as our geopolitical circumstance change, the structure and the arrangements of the force will also evolve. Now, the Nuclear Power Submarine Programme it's estimated at a cost of 0.15% of GDP and the current Defence Allocation is a budget of 1.96% of GDP let's say 2% of GDP. This is a setting in which I am absolutely sure that a nuclear-powered, conventionally armed submarine is the right capability choice for Australia. And then it is for government consideration through things like the Defence Strategic Review as to what is the structural arrangement, posture and preparedness of the whole force including the submarine capability and at what cost for our strategic circumstance. Now I know you said you can't comment in detail on the DSR but you will have seen the story in the AFR today which reports that program managers in defence have been told to trim up to 15% from their sustainment budgets across the ADF to pay for some of the new capabilities to be acquired through AUKUS. Is there a danger there? Can the ADF manage this? Can it do it without robbing Peter to pay Paul as it were? So I'm not going to either confirm or deny the commentary in the newspaper but I will emphasise that we are an accountable instrument of government accountable in part for the expenditure that we utilise each year from the nation's treasure. And so we are always, always looking for how to do things more efficiently and how to be more effective in the way that we do them. So whether or not you have a submarine program whether or not you have a defence strategic review I want the most effective capability as efficiently as possible so I can take those resources and reapply them to more capability if the government would allow me. And so I'm pleased that there's a report expressing that kind of approach because that's the kind of approach we should always have and the way that technology changes the way that our security requirements change we must not stand still. Let me ask you a couple of questions about Ukraine. You drew out some important lessons that you had drawn so far. What has surprised you most about the conduct of the war over the last 12 or 13 months? Without paying close scrutiny to it over the period from 2014 to 2022 I was extremely impressed with the performance of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the early days where I think you would see wall-to-wall coverage presuming that the Russians would roll over Ukraine and sweep the victory in somewhere between three days and three weeks. But the Ukrainian Armed Forces secured Kiev from a coup de main operation. They operated through counter-attacking and dislodging forces from the north and the northeast and now they're into that bloody, difficult fight on the east. The time spent in those years after the 2014 incursion to prepare, to plan to think of the right operational concepts for a country of comparatively modest means to be able to stop the Russians in their tracks and indeed to wreak great havoc upon them is extraordinarily impressive. So that's the first month of the war 12 months later where they're still as you say in a bloody battle in the east they're preparing for a spring offensive. How confident are you that Ukraine can win this war? The challenge I think in this war is that first point I made will is paramount and what we see from the president all the way through the Ukrainian people this utter commitment to fight to recover Ukraine sovereign, territorial, whole and free. On the other side of the ledger we see President Putin at least projecting as equally determined to extinguish Ukraine as I think the comments by Medvedev over the last couple of days would indicate a sense that Ukraine doesn't have a reason or a right to exist. While will is implacable this fight will continue and it is in manoeuvre through the kind of material support that's being provided to Ukraine and the extraordinary skill and rapidity of learning that we see amongst the Ukrainian Armed Forces that provides potential opportunity on the battlefield without a change in the balance in the field. We are not seeing that kind of operational or tactical level skill or innovation from the Russians. So I am hopeful of what Ukraine may be able to achieve but while will exist this fight will continue. Could I just reprise a comment made at the Rossina Dialogue I think epitomises the tragedy of all of this. If Russia stops fighting the war stops. If Ukraine stops fighting Ukraine stops existing and so I don't think they're going to stop fighting and what's happening in the east looks awfully like the kind of monumental battles and the destruction that we saw in earlier great wars in Europe. One similarity between this war and the Second World War is the importance of material support provided by allies across the water and the Americans are very proud of the support that we've provided. When Prime Minister Albanese was in Kiev last year he pointed out that Australia was the largest non-nato contributor of that kind of aid to Ukraine. We've now been overtaken by Japan when will we when should we expect to hear about the next package of arms and assistance that Australia might provide to the Ukrainian Armed Forces and in this context I noticed this morning perhaps preparing for your speech today the Ukrainian Defence Ministry tweeted a video about how much Ukrainian soldiers loved the Australian bushmasters but now they have a new crush the Hawkeye the Hawkeye protected mobility vehicles and they're asking for the Hawkeyes and the Bushmasters to be reunited in Ukraine is that something they can expect do you think? Our government has made it clear that we continue and will continue to support Ukraine the form of that support is a matter for government. Alright, let me ask you one other question and then I'm going to come to the audience I want to come back to this question of political leadership in the Ukraine war as you know we host as I mentioned we hosted President Zelensky on this stage just talk a bit more as a professional military officer about how important you think President Zelensky's leadership has been to the Ukrainian war effort. I do really think that it has galvanised not just the military fight but the national sense of resistance and resilience and willingness to come together and to sacrifice for what's needed to push back the Russians and he has been extraordinary in bringing that sense of nationhood and commitment to the fight and I think you are right to speak of the line of Kiev there are people who step up to their moment and he has done that magnificently. Alright, we have about 10 or 15 minutes to take questions from the audience so who would like to ask a question of the CDF please put your hand up and catch my eye yes I see Susanna Patton from the Lowy Institute anyone else want to catch my eye while Susanna is getting yes Josephine Vullat, Susanna first. General Campbell, Peter Varghese has linked the idea of Orchis with the concept of a return to forward defence and a move away from the idea of a defence of Australia doctrine do you see the distinction between Australia's contribution to regional security scenarios versus the idea of defending our own territory as a meaningful one for Australia's security? Thank you, I see all military capability existing for the purpose of defending Australia and its national interests those national interests are significant beyond simply the territory or the maritime environment I also recognise that modern military and military related systems have far greater range, precision and effect than ever before so even if you were thinking of strictly the territorial defence of the continent of Australia you would today be thinking a lot further than you would have been 20 years ago or 40 years ago and if you're thinking about defence of Australia and its national interests you've got to think about the suite of capabilities necessary to enable that preferably as I said through positively shaping an environment deterring conflict and having a capacity to respond Josephine Wallat and I'll ask you Josephine just to state your affiliation if you would before you put your question Josephine Wallat I'm a German diplomat but I'm on holidays so I'm speaking strictly privately but I went to university with Michael so forgive me for asking a question General you talked about the impressive will of the Ukrainian people and you also briefly touched upon the fact that it was very impressive and indeed necessary to counter the disinformation campaign launched by Russia and as a European we've seen disinformation campaigns all over Europe not just in Ukraine the one thing that I think is impressive but also more than just simply impressive is the fact that Ukraine and its armed forces have used so many modern social media means something that I don't think any other military to my knowledge has done to set degree it is of course always a balancing act faced with such tragedy to then go into humorous tweets and in fact TikTok videos I keep on seeing TikTok videos of armed forces in Ukrainian forests etc so is there a lesson to be learned in this reaching out also to your own people to younger generations to the world at large is this a new theatre of war what is it is there something to be learned from TikTok videos humorous tweets etc that you might be thinking of for your own armed forces or the rest of us should be thinking of, thank you it's a really good point you make Russian disinformation campaigns I think that the deliberate and nationally authorised release of key intelligence on occasions to counter false flag operations and disinformation has been an important step forward in a formal sense of information use both a shield and a weapon in conflict but your point more broadly is that young middle aged ultimately the world that has access to a mobile phone has access to an extraordinarily broad range of social media pathways and messages and platforms that we see their reality through that medium if that is the world we live in in a, let's say peace time environment it is the world that will be adapted to defend or in the Russian case to seek to aggress in a conflict environment the Ukrainians have been responsible in bringing young tech savvy message savvy people into the fight from an information environment sense and I think that it is something that everybody is looking to and asking how do you use that to bolster national will how do you use it to counter disinformation to bring a nation and then a regional community and then a globe with you in the story because part of the work being done is about countries as far away as Australia or New Zealand or Japan as much as the European Union the United States or indeed the people of Ukraine this is definitely part of our life in a normal sense and while a gross distortion the environment of conflict will bring in those elements of life in its own distorted way so yes we need to understand and bring our own sense of how to ethically apply this power Thank you I saw Matthew Knot from the City Morning Herald with his hand up Thank you General Campbell in your address early you touched upon the Brereton inquiry I have of course recently seen the first charge of war crimes flowing from that I was wondering if you comment about are you bracing for more such charges and can you talk about how the Defence Force will deal with the possible additional damage that could come out of that could you foresee for example going forward an official apology of some kind to Afghanistan over these allegations Thanks for your question so the Office of the Special Investigator which is working independent of Defence has as you say seen a first arrest of a former soldier there may be others and that is a matter for the OSI and ultimately then a matter for the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions I don't look to the question of how do I protect my reputation or the reputation of the Australian Defence Force instead I ask the question what is the correct values and behaviours and purpose to which we should be applying our effort and reputation emerges now I think and believe that in these circumstances it's really important to support the people who are involved but to recognise that if we have failed as an organisation then we need to face that and this is part of that story and we are individually and collectively better for it if we do so so you won't see me trying to gloss over these things and I think that there could be some very very uncomfortable days coming forward matter for the OSI, matter for the courts what matters for me values, behaviours and mission of the Australian Defence Force that's what builds reputation I think Andrew Green I saw his hand as well General Campbell Andrew Green from the ABC to follow on from your comments can I get you to reflect on command accountability how many senior officers have had action taken against them and your own views on what has occurred Thanks Andrew, that work continues and I'm not at liberty to speak to it until it has been completed but we are undertaking the work as recommended by Justice Barrett and under the question of command accountability I saw a question in the second row Thank you Tara Hello, Michaela Browning from Google and I just wanted to ask you about relationships in the region we had John Aquilino, Indo-Pac Commander in Singapore recently saying that he speaks to all his counterparts but so far refused by his Chinese counterpart to have a regular dialogue including if there's an escalation on the Korean Peninsula or any other sorts of issues like that can I ask about your relationships and what you do to try and bridge that gap Thank you I do spend quite a bit of time speaking with engaging on occasions visiting or meeting in conference environments with counterparts all over the Indo-Pacific and indeed beyond to progress that story of how we operationally engage how we practically build and strengthen the relationships between defence organisations and build a if not common then an understanding of the security environments as we all see them that's been part of the Defence Forces core business for a long time and in terms of any of my partner nations they are equally as keen on engaging with Australia and I think that we've got a capable and respected Defence Force within a long term consistently evolving defence policy construct we're open about what we do we try to be transparent I think that the relationships are strong now I think you were talking specifically about dialogue with the PLA and Chinese counterparts so you'll be aware that over the last few years that dialogue hasn't occurred as it normally would we've seen however the first steps in re-establishing the tiered arrangements of dialogues that we have both through ministerial level engagement that's both the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister as well as the conversations between our defence officials and so I think that we're returning to a new norm in that regard and that's important I am interested to speak to colleagues all my colleagues and I recognise that some of the power in those conversations is when you understand that you don't see the world in the same way very important Angus can I ask you about the Pacific I know you have a passion for Papua New Guinea and for many of the countries in the Pacific can you talk to us about how important is the stability of the Pacific to Australia's security and can I also ask you about the widely reported upon Chinese attempts to probe I guess and increase their influence in our immediate region in the Solomon Islands and elsewhere how concerned are you by that how confident are you that Australia can remains the partner of first choice in the Pacific we've got a long relationship with the Pacific Island nations and indeed High Commissioner good to see you the work that we've done spans more than 100 years so Australia's first humanitarian assistance mission was to Samoa and Tonga in response to the influenza outbreak of 1918-1919 and the Australian Defence Force has been working ever since in different ways, in different modalities and we are very active as a partner throughout the Pacific and wish to continue to be we don't presume our status we wish to earn a relationship that matters to both countries because the Pacific matters to Australia it is a community of nations who are geographically very close to us who are in many circumstances scarce in resource or maybe in terms of the economic or political stability of their setting and where we can make a considerable constructive difference in terms of development assistance capacity building and in working to build an understanding they have certainly the Pacific Island nations have championed the message and I think extraordinarily effectively and that's to their great credit we have people who are resident in the Pacific who go on training missions to the Pacific we have Pacific personnel working with us if we are that best Australia we can be I think that there is a natural affinity that brings the Pacific and Australia closer together and it's a reinforcing affinity but we have to recognise that we have to work at it we should never presume it and that others and I'm not speaking of only a singular country but others also wish to have an influence and a presence in the Pacific now from an Australia's point of view a Pacific that is aligned in terms of its sense of welcome by an Australia that is an open to engaging with the Pacific that is a good place for Australia to be and I think that that's exactly where we should be seeking to build that relationship but it takes effort by many people and in many aspects of our national life Ladies and gentlemen it's been an absorbing hour I think you'll agree it's been a very wide ranging discussion from Afghanistan to Ukraine to the Pacific from subs to Hawkeyes from Tik Tok to Trotsky I think I hope that you agree that you have seen today in Angus many of the qualities that I mentioned in my introduction his humility, his intelligence and I mentioned his discipline you notice how disciplined he was in not taking up my invitation to make news on all the issues of controversy my phone is less disciplined but I really want to thank you today Angus for making time for doing us the compliment of speaking so frankly about so many topics so Ladies and gentlemen thank you for your questions and for your attention but please join most importantly in thanking the Chief of Australia's Defence Force General Angus Campbell