 Okay, hello everyone. Welcome to this webinar. My name is Navtej Puruwal and I am a professor here at SOAS. I teach element studies department but I'm also the module and program convener of international development online. It's kind of a one-way conversation. I can see people who are logged on here. I hear you, so we'll at the end have a you can ask me questions through the chat function and I'm more than happy to answer any questions that you might have about the program or some of the things that I'm about to present to you. So what I thought I'd do today is give you a brief overview of at the end of the program international development and I'd like to just for those of you who some of you may be already working in the international development sector in which case you'll have a wealth of experience no doubt and may not have studied some of the things that you've actually been doing. We have students who come in who are really wanting to get the more practical experience having studied some parts or done sociology or politics or economics but want to do more specific and focus program or study and want to go on and work. So the session is going to be very brief 15-20 minutes. I'm going to be talking a bit about how development studies as a field can help us tackle some of the most cutting-edge pressing issues in the world. I think it's really important people come to SOAS because many students think that they actually want to make a huge impact on the world which is the reason why we're here. I also wanted to talk about what possibilities does critical thinking and development studies enable and I think that's the biggest reason that most of you ask people who come to SOAS to study whether it's a distance learning or on campus it's because they actually want to have that learn some of those skills around critical thinking to actually really make impact on the world. And then I want to give you an example of research led teaching in international development and I'm just going to give an example of some of the research that I've done and how I approach a particular topic and how you might think of other areas that you might be interested in seeing how an idea can translate into the classroom and then can translate into some things that we might learn about in one of the modules that you might want to take. So I'll start off with critical thinking as an approach, a methodology and a skill and these points are really targeted at I think the SOAS kind of ethos which I think is quite different and particularly around development studies. You could go anywhere and study development studies but when you come to SOAS you're coming to SOAS to really think quite deeply about some very fundamental issues and not merely looking at the kind of policy level or analysis level. So the first point is about thinking about the historical and political backdrops of development context and outcomes so that range from looking at conflict and war zones to even looking at what have become normalized everyday context of deprivation but actually considering how and why those contexts have emerged and looking at a number of different aspects to those. The second is this idea of reading between the lines and even going further and deconstructing development rhetoric and buzzwords. So even in one of my examples I'm going to be showing is looking at the sustainable development goals as being potentially could be seen as a buzzword or a series of buzzwords and what do they actually mean and why is there sometimes resistance to some of the concepts that are hidden within the sustainable development goals and you know why what institutions and which voices are represented in them. The third point is analyzing systems and structures which actually produce inequalities. I think this third one I think is really it doesn't just sum up what happens a lot of what happens at SOAS but it also it points the fact that many and we don't just use kind of structuralist analysis or Marxist analysis we use a number of different frameworks but many of them are actually looking at not just the experience or outcomes of processes that produce inequalities but it's actually looking at the systemic nature of them and oftentimes that implicates institutions which are very much part of the status quo. So that's where critical thinking comes in and how you can either think about changing institutions or challenging them in terms of what they represent. The fourth point is considering a range of diverse approaches and in particular many of you would have heard about the decolonize a curriculum movement that began here which has now become one of the kind of cornerstones of the ethos of SOAS now as well is thinking about non-uracentric perspectives and that's not just about having a diverse reading list it's also considering what the world looks like sitting in different parts of the world and actually valuing different types of knowledge and different systems of knowledge even though you be coming to SOAS to study which is in the middle of the UK and London as its own history of empire it's also a really good place to sit and think you know wherever you are in the world about the ongoing the continuities the impacts the ways in which this has operated on a number of different levels in terms of resistance to your European knowledge but also in terms of new knowledges that are being produced so it's a really exciting time in any ways to be a student I think at SOAS and the final one is looking is understanding how power influences development so thinking about power and not just the experiences of or thinking about the poor for instance but actually looking going back to the point earlier point three is looking at power on the one hand but also thinking about the systems that power also produces and institutes that can oftentimes perpetuate inequalities and other development issues so some of the debates that we look at for instance international development the core module um political sociology and economics of development economy of development is that we we look at things ranging from what how do we measure poverty and inequality and what do different measurements of poverty and inequality tell us some quantitative indicators will tell us one thing qualitative assessments might tell us something else and in between there are a number of different measurements that we'll be kind of looking at in comparative critique we also if you would have heard of the concept of neoliberalism which is basically this idea that capitalism you know is is triumphant so if it is triumphant and is everywhere it is the system now how how has it impacted on development policies we're now talking about neoliberal development you know what does that actually mean another is the idea of colonialism or of development actually being an ongoing legacy of colonialism that development began as part of what people will say is a part of the you know the colonial endeavor the continuities could be seen as something that show that colonialism actually isn't at the western Eurocentric domination of knowledge and of policies and of institutions could be read through this lens so we do a little bit on that and then we also finally what I'm going to be talking about today is looking at gender and gender is it instrumentalized development discourse and policy and actually what does that mean to instrumentalize something like gender gender so I'm just going to just give you a very brief mini kind of session on this which is kind of an area that well I teach this on campus as well as do research on this and I thought this might be a good way of highlighting a kind of the way that we approach our some of our topics in development studies I'm going kind of referring back to the earlier slide critical thinking about how we why you might consider coming to sow us to study development studies is that if we want to have a critical approach to gender development and this isn't just saying having using women as a proxy for gender it's also it's thinking about gender how it functions in society but also with the development programs and courses that we would need to think about how gender historically has featured in development interventions including what has been called colonial civilizing mission right that it exports this idea of empowerment so those buzzwords I mentioned through women's upliftment or their inclusion can oftentimes be read as ways in which that continuity is actually civilizing societies by uplifting these women or challenging gender in other societies another way of critically approaching thinking about well shouldn't we be questioning this idea of universal principles around and this is making a full that question is really turning back on 1995 when there was a late Beijing platform for action at CDAL the convention of the elimination of discrimination against women and the number of other frameworks policy frameworks which have tried and have been part of this international universal trying to universalize certain principles around equality human rights gender rights is that necessarily something that should continue to be promoted or is it something that may require some more rigorous analysis to be applied in different contexts I think that's quite a you know a non-going question nothing we can answer here but I think just make you think about and then what does mainstreaming signify in the millennium development goals and now the sustainable development goals is that a victory to have mainstreaming and say that yes in order for development projects to come up and to be funded or to be successful they need to show that they have mainstream gender and gender is very centrally being considered oftentimes there are things that are left for instance mainstreaming doesn't necessarily take an intersectional approach so it might look at gender or women but it may ignore other marginalizations or exclusions such as ethnicity or class or region or the rural urban divide another aspect we might consider is the backdrop of neoliberalism and western hegemony within international institutions there are a lot that they said has been said and can be said about how the rise and ascent of neoliberalism as the system has also been reflected in how western institution or western based institutions have really become the international framework of how capitalism now operates this is really having a huge impact on how we should be thinking about development studies now and in fact it's quite challenging for those of us who are teaching it now to actually follow development in ways because if we're looking at corporations now being development actors or partners we're not just thinking about international institutions in the old sense we're also now thinking about new actors who are who have vested interests who are also investors who also have to have to be on the same platform within the same development platform so that's quite an interesting area that I'll be talking about in a minute and finally the emphasis on the individual and therefore rights through those platforms I just mentioned before can sometimes not necessarily be in sync with local context and you can see those very polarized positions or even places in which human rights is seen as an imposition as a western imposition and you know how and why that those those dichotomies are erected can oftentimes be not necessarily just about that issue but what's going on more widely so while a project is being introduced you know to empower women it's important to consider what else is going on around that which may be instrumentalizing women in order for those other goals to be achieved so I'm just going to highlight some examples here I've given some images here around the top one is a Unilever ad around sustainable tea production which is obviously showing these happy workers women you know working in the tea plantation someplace it's like in South Asia and the bottom is looking at the colonial countries around corporations being involved in that civilizing mission and we see huge jumps being made but also some continuities being made around how gender is featuring how development is being talked about so I'm just going to I'm not going to talk through these because we don't have enough time I just wanted to highlight the sustainable development goal number five which is to achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls and you can see very explicitly that this is mainstreaming you know to have gender and gender equality and empowerment of women and girls to be one of the SDGs being very much as a victory for those who were participating in the movement since the 1960s from women in development women and development to gender and development which were policy frameworks that victory had been achieved by asserting it and then further the SDGs how will these SDGs be achieved and you can see here you know by undertaking reforms to give women equal rights to enhance the use of enabling technology and here we are communicating through technology here thinking that that it's going to be seen as a key component in the promotion of the empowerment of women and I'll show you a slide in a moment which relates to this I mean how are we going to do this how is technology going to be part of this and the third is to adopt and strengthen some policies and enforceable legislation which shows another level of which may require intervention or certain reforms in terms of legal frameworks in different national level policy context so here's an example of gender policy and development is education universalization of education so beginning in 1990 in Senegal the car the car framework was drawn up where the whole principle that universalized education universalization of education which makes its compulsory for primary education to begin with was going to be rolled out on a global level so that all and according to the MDGs then that and then subsequently the SDGs that all children would have access to primary education by 2015 and so you can see SDG the goal number four sorry the universalized the EFA goal four which is to achieve gender parity by 2005 and gender equality by 2016 made it very explicit that gender was being mainstreamed in the education debate and here's some you know we like to you know not necessarily oops we're going ahead it's going ahead sorry about this there we go and here we see the gender parity index gender parity index operates on a scale which shows 1.0 would be absolute parity between females and males right that would mean that we had achieved gender parity or equality and actually what this graph is showing is that gender parity has more or less been achieved at the levels of primary level of primary education very high levels there so many people will say universalization has more less been successful and it's here where as we as students as researchers become as teachers become interested in well actually if you go back to the slides see goal number six was to improve the quality of education and this is where we see that there's there we're still lacking that out of that has emerged a number of different findings which show that despite people being in many cases you know they've been compulsory to attend school that the quality hasn't necessarily followed but what's even more underlying so here's where we're reading between the lines okay going back to my earlier slide is that we're thinking actually how is education now being structured right we are neoliberal times we have a lot of partnerships private public partnerships that are emerging so the global partnership for education is exactly that it brings on companies corporations with international organizations with NGOs on a national governments together in terms of sharing platform and considering ways of developing funding frameworks so and you can see here is an infographic which shows the improvements or the goals that have been set by the global partnership for education perhaps even more interestingly if you look at the bottom of the companies who are part of these types of partnerships and this is the rise up so we have a number of different skills particularly going back to gender education where the girl the girl child becomes the symbol for education and the victory for the kind of gender equality gender mainstreaming platform and at the bottom we have AstraZeneca we have Packard, Ford Foundation, Gates, Johnson & Johnson a number of different companies will rise rise up the girl effect started by Nike are are showing that in fact the corporate sector is not just donating in terms of charity it's now in fact shaping some of the development discourse that we're seeing emerging around education and that should that impacts on actually the types of policies that are being developed also now when we now we think okay well here are the the the types of actors who are involved in education I think girls education are you could say on the one hand the diversifying but on the other we might say in fact these are vested interests and potentially conflict of interest but we can we can ask this big question then if we're thinking about a just world if we're thinking if we want justice or gender justice or you know justice through education is that well does gender global gender policy represent justice or injustice in this example around education and for many people it does not and for many people it does on the bottom I've given a number of different images here which are the reference to Malala youth society obviously a very important symbol for girls education or Boko Haram and the kinds of the hashtag bring back our girls which became very very prominent in terms of social media those are not just statements that are made just tell us a lot about the political backdrop that's going on while girls education this is something that we look at in terms of the literature for this session when I teach it is that we think about the common sense of girls education no one disagrees by and large that girls should be educated it's something that kind of everyone's on board with and we might think to go beyond that is actually why would people be challenging this idea of sending girls or sending children to education what else is going on in the world while these programs and policies are introduced so what was going on in the world you know in the mid-2000s for instance in which parts of the world were receiving conflict zones which parts of the world were receiving military assistance or those that were being you know the site of occupation or being targeted that what are the vested interest there for which are aligned to the gender development agenda alongside that so many would argue so we have one reading for that which talks about the common sense it says the girl child emerges around education as the kind of person that needs saving she's a victim on the one hand but she also highlights and justifies western intervention whether it be for development or the military intervention so we can obviously look at Afghanistan we can look at other parts of the world the girl child in fact is it has been instrumentalized as a symbol for foreign policy and we might then think about the kinds of discourses and symbols around the girl that further are used to kind of further on the one hand the gender justice rights agenda and on the other other types of interventions so when I say what types of inter what how to what extent is that can the girl child or the girl being weaponized or instrumentalized this is precisely what we're talking about we're saying well girl education for all it sounds like a wonderful agenda and we're on board but who's involved so the corporate sector so it gets involved and in places so where Malala you subsize from in Pakistan 40 percent of children going to school at primary age are actually attending private schools and you also have private sector who are involved in the in the global partnership for education so there are vested interests there who are not only giving to this cause but are also profiting from it and I think those are the systems and structures that I was mentioning earlier that we are really interested in highlighting is how much has been given who's giving the money where and you know what are the cycles of investment and profit and ideologically how does this work so I'm just going to highlight this quickly I've got a little documentary clip here Nike and the sweatshirt problem on the left okay so Nike as a company launched the girl effect so there's a lot of really interesting literature on this which analyzes on the right to the night foundation sponsored coalition for adolescent girls where you see this triangle and at the bottom of the triangle kind of holding the entire frame up is the girl you know she's abstracted through this international sign that she's carrying the weight of the population and in the in the process making her the most powerful person in the world she's also featured as being and represented as being the most dispossessed and so this image was designed you know for the Nike foundation as it was being criticized highlighted by campaigners because of its so-called sweatshirt problem there's a lot of documentation of nineties practices in terms of production how it operates in special economic zones where it doesn't have to pay a minimum wage or abide by labor laws and the violations it makes in those in terms of its production they needed to find a way of kind of laundering their reputation and basically how they did it was through their corporate social responsibility campaign so the girl effect was precisely that the girl child enabled a company like Nike and other companies who were doing this also which we Vodafone has done this in terms of mobile phone promotion in parts of Africa and South Asia and that relates to the technology point of the SDGs that actually the corporate agenda has in some ways gets embedded in ways that oftentimes aren't really go unnoticed so I think these are the kinds of issues that we are interested in thinking about they're not just about people who are marginalized and therefore need help but we also need to be looking at the marginalized in relation to power in relation to the kind of systems of production in terms of the systems and flows of profit investment and also development so just basically to sum up and I'm just going to go back now to the program to the MSE and international development online that example is just kind of in a nutshell the way in which we could approach the gender and education question I do research in that area so I sometimes then go into some of my field work and the kinds of findings we've made in that area and draw on other studies you know and the different types of lectures you'll online and the readings you'll do are very engaging and basically the online MSE international development program is based on a number of different principles the SOAS ethos of progressive critical thinking and development studies as I've tried to highlight here it has a very unique pedagogy which is very much student-centered it's inclusive it's accessible it's user-friendly it's flexible and you know it allows you to make people who are working alongside but there is a time where you have to attend a lecture as you are today but for instance this has been recorded so you could watch it another time but the resources are there for you to follow as it kind of seems your schedule is put in the cycle the program also equips students with skills and knowledge to engage with important issues so such as when I mean I'm interested in this I began to think well what are we doing with this new framework of neoliberal development and people are talking about what does actually mean and you know I'd hope students who are coming to South Africa study will do this in their in their dissertations also it's finding something that really catches your interest something that you're really committed to and interested in doing or a range of different questions that you're interested in doing come through your essays and really learning how to apply the knowledge you learn through the readings through the discussion forums with your with your peers and developing those kind of critical communication skills and thinking skills as well as writing so the aims of the distance learning MSc are a number of them to give you a thorough and interdisciplinary political understanding of processes of change and developing regions we also kind of turn the looking glass the other direction also as I said in terms of looking looking in the face of power so corporations are also part of that but also looking in terms of development as it's known more traditionally we also aim to give a specialized knowledge of a particular studies just to highlight so to give you illustrations of the kind of sometimes abstract theories and just how they're operating in the real world and then also like the the gender parody thing I showed you the graph as well as showing you some overall trends we also aim to impart skills to think in policy relevant terms so you're cognizant of the kinds of policy frameworks that are out there that you should be aware of while also thinking about the maybe more academic literature more theoretical literature being able to consider that alongside and finally to give you analytical skills and an understanding of practical methodologies to proceed to professional employment and possibly some of you may end up wanting to go on to do further research so the core module we have is the political economy and sociology of development and it has three main kind of components one is the battle of ideas which we go through a number of different kind of theoretical frameworks and paradigms and kind of consider them alongside one another and in conversation with one another and oftentimes in conflict with each other where you might find as in your discussion forums which we have through the chat function with yours with your colleagues with your peers is actually engaging in academic log and I think that's a really useful skill to be able to develop many students find that the discussion forum and I think my experience of seeing is that I have students on campus in tutorials who meet face to face students who are on the discussion forum are also discussing with one another and in many ways it's you're having a more sustained engagement because the tutorial for a particular topic will carry on for that entire week so it's a very yeah it's a very engaging kind of pedagogy the ways in which we urge students to I mean not just encourage you you have to participate in the weekly forums the second theme is whose development and while you'll still be going in discussing these topics with each other this component is slightly more applied in considering you know some questions around the measurements as I mentioned earlier different measurements of ways of assessing development you know considering how poverty appears at the national level and how international level frameworks you know may be adequate or inadequate to to assess with those debates and of course the gender and development paradigms that are available the final one is shaping development which is kind of really now considering some real substantive cutting edge areas for you to apply some of the previous three previous two sorry areas thinking about you know industrialization agriculture labor markets considering planning thinking about taxes you know thinking about how how NGOs operate actually and many people work in the NGO sector or you know work in different kinds of aspects of development in which you have to think critically around you know what what should what is the role of NGOs and actually how are they positioned I mean particularly within the context I was mentioning earlier an era in which the funding funding context international agencies corporations are a number of different actors that are at play in the same space you know what is the role of NGOs so we asked a number of those questions in that component and so what the overall program looks like is that you have the core module which I just mentioned politically harnesses your development then you have what we have called guided modules but they're actually just modules that are from our list from the development studies list they're not any more guided actually than others they're just more within the discipline you get an elective module from a much brighter broader list which are offered in other departments and then finally the dissertation and development studies which also has many modules that help guide you through the dissertation process and that is the end of my presentation I'd like to you know welcome anyone who wants to have any questions or has any comments anything you'd like to ask I've been happy to to answer if you're interested in the program you're welcome to email me I've got my email on the first slide I'd be happy to to discuss anything that you may have any questions that you might have yes okay deogratias has asked I joined I8 was a session recorded yes it's been it's been recorded and you should be able to it's still being recorded I think so you'll be able to see an audio copy I think you just probably go on to the web page for this and it should be there if not you can you can email me and I can send it okay stacer has said about speaking about the student community in this program yeah so the student community is very interesting so I have been teaching on campus for a while and so has and I've done other distance learning programs the development studies is why I'm saying it's interesting is it's very diverse um but it goes beyond that I find that and I don't know all of you who are attending this today but the students who who are do who do the international development or do these programs tend to be people who are already um have already have quite a bit of experience um so you don't have many people who are coming straight from university having done an undergraduate degree many people who've gone straight through and gone into an international development agency for instance and are actually working in the countries where they they are basically and and don't have flexibility of taking time out for further study so you end up having some very interesting conversations and discussion forums people who are I mean this year right now people are just finishing this for a cycle of political and political sociology economy development and they are I mean ranging from New York City to Damascus um to Nairobi to I mean you they're all over the world and I think the biggest challenge is not so much about people coming from different places or um communication it's actually just the time the time difference people have to kind you know you're you're all in the same you know you're on the same cycle for the week a topic will be announced on the forum and everyone has to participate in it um and so what you realize is that it's it's it's properly global um so it's an interesting experience I I found it's quite enriching because you'll hear in the introductions in the first week people will speak about themselves and kind of where you've been you know why you're interested in doing the program and you kind of get into a sense immediately from the first week it almost feels as though people by the end really know each other quite well because the discussion forums they kind of force you to participate in ways which you know you engage with the topic but you're also kind of sharing your your analysis and perspective as well so it's quite a professional a lot of professionals a lot of people who are they're going straight through and actually just want to get on my email some a fatala is asked my email and it's on the slide I'm just showing now if you can see it if I compare the online one just preempt a question if I compare the online with the on-campus students I think um and I've attended graduation as well where online students have come you you do see just maybe I won't say more mature students necessarily but you could say that you could also say yeah you just have a range of different kinds of professional backgrounds people coming from so um yeah it's it's not it's in no way distance learning is no way like a second rate option or something easy option either it is very much on par with doing any other kind of program on campus and in other ways you might say it's actually more engaging because you really you know you're not you're not missing classes you know you have to attend you have to attend online so you're very present there it's with you so it's just a commitment also to do the readings and to keep up so let me as asked for a certificate after the session do you mean do you mean this session no I'm afraid not I mean you if anyone wants to apply for the for the program you can say that you you know you you attended this for this webinar on the on this date and you can you can write that into your personal statement if you like if that's if that's of any help I don't have the full list of them I didn't do it on purpose thinking that you probably you'll be able to access it online anyway so this is this this is the structure of the of the program if you go to the the web page right for the MSc international development online you'll see a list of modules that you can choose from which is quite extensive this is just the structure which is which just kind of shows you that you have basically three options to make it more simple you have three options these two are from a slightly more narrow list which is developments getting more development studies and this one is from the elective module is more from a broader list you can also get in touch with module you know conveners if you want any more specific information when you're choosing them that's a good question around the difference between the program these two programs humanitarian and international development humanitarian studies is more yeah I mean it's it's actually all in core module I think that's probably what distinguishes them the most but also the dissertation I think for the dissertation you probably would would focus on on some kind of humanitarian related topic but that's it basically I mean think in terms of your electives you're more or less very similar but the core module the political economy the political sociology one yeah is very much like a development studies kind of core module so you know it covers some of the more yeah the kind of debates that you would expect a development studies student to have been exposed to so it's the post-development debates the decolonial neo marxist versus marxist structuralism and those but then also kind of some broad development areas whereas the humanitarian one is very much around humanitarian conflict studies that's a very particular kind of yeah that literature I think it might be worth attending that one I think it's on the 17th of February to get an idea of which one is is more suitable for what you want to do most people who are making that choice tend to do so on the basis of two things one is the core module and the other is their professional plans many people are ever in London as well we find I've met a few students who do the who've done who are doing the distance learning who are actually in London so those of you who are far away might think that sounds ludicrous but actually it suits them because they many of them are working full-time and they are or are working full-time and also traveling abroad so they often will come in they can they can get a library card and they'll they can access the library in that way and have attended some of the seminar series that we have our development study seminar series so that you're welcome to do that as well it may it may be that the humanitarian action program might be more tailored to what you need the way to decide is if if if you feel as though the political sociology economy module has enough of a broad background for you but you could you can take some of the other modules as options apart from the humanitarian core module so you'd really have to decide I think at this stage whether you feel that having that focus is important for you and actually how you well how you understand your interests or how you understand those problems right to change though I think it's only you that will but maybe that you know health if you're interested in health in particular or if you're interested in conflict and humanitarian action then it may be that the humanitarian action program will be more suited to you okay so I mean I can only speak so this we're we've just launched this program I've been teaching on another program which has been an international studies of development I'm sorry diplomacy and that those students have gone on to do they work in into the international development sector by and large I mean that's what most people are doing and I think it's just the nature of where the jobs are some people actually set up their own and then a few people who've done that as well have gone on and decided that they actually whatever they've learned they felt that they wanted to set something else up in you know in a vision that they felt was more in line with the things that they things they'd learned but I think if the international development sector is where most people end up finding themselves working and obviously the UN agencies we also have a really good careers office here as a student while you're here you know you're able to take advantage of some of those lists and recruitment and advertisements that come up through there so that's that can be quite helpful as well as obviously is quite well connected in terms of international development in that way but yeah there isn't one one route I mean I think research going on to do an M. Phil PhD is also not an unheard of choice after doing this program as well so yeah but this particular program is new so we'll only know next year what where people go on to and before answer these I think one of the main things you should be alerted to is the importance of the personal statement and obviously it's you know grades and academic background and all of that for a master's program for an MSc in particular but also like what you're interested in doing a program like this is the connection between the kind of area you know where you see your life going or your past experiences have led you to this I think that can also strengthen your application okay so like an online master's offer real skills yeah okay sure so the they're and as I was saying before there isn't there's no difference really between a math online master's degree and an on-campus one we're moving towards an era where even our on-campus we're using kind of blended learning or a lot of things are online now so even when people are attending and in big cities it's not easy to get into you know central London or you find that actually students are accessing so much of the information and and the skills are they're accessing skills in some ways by having those kind of skills around technology I think the one thing that's different about the kinds of skills that you gain online versus being on campus and that might be something that we work with for next year perhaps your cohort will benefit from it is the face-to-face interaction you know but what you do gain is that yes no there's there are fees to be paid for this for the program sorry yeah so I'm going to go back to Sidani's question which is around the skills real skills the real skills you get are for communication I've been through the discussion forum which is really interactive when I watch the messages coming through and you can see people are responding to each other one person has responded they're ready so they write respond and next friend coming in right whereas a tutorial book a tutorial on campus is one hour right and you'll see the people next week for an hour very contained conversation and it ends there whereas you'll find on the online that communication is carrying on so the communication skills around debate and dialogue all of that and analytical skills are quite high there I think in terms of how people develop and obviously the dissertation is another place in the skills which is mandatory as Sidani's asked they have doing master dissertation is compulsory it's a part of it it's worth 60 credit so it's worked quite a bit and we do have like mini modules which are kind of dissertation research training kind of modules that are part of that so that's that in terms of internships that kind of we don't have them as part of the part of the program but as a so as student you would have access to the careers office here so there may be who are always advertising internships you could take advantage of of having that kind of access right so if anyone has any other questions you can you're welcome to email me I can try and answer any questions that you have any we need to go I think this room is about to be booked at three o'clock well thank you all for your questions and for attending and I hope it was hope it was helpful okay I'll look forward to your applications