 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to a very special episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones and Bob Cook. And this is the 52nd episode. We've done 12 months, Bob. My God. Yeah, I must look back at the, because podcasts get played in my Bob Cook YouTube channel. I must look back and see if I was so youthful back back then. We were raised in these podcasts. We were. I just think the last 12 months, the things that we've been through, you know, individually as a nation, the world, everything. Surprising. Would I would never have guessed half of that stuff would have happened 12 months ago? No. No. So what we're going to be talking about kind of relates to that. The courage to be human in the therapy process. Yeah, what a wonderful title. I wonder who came up with that title. Very intelligent person, somebody with lots of intelligence and integrity and everything. Absolutely, Jackie. Yes, I picked the title mainly because I think it takes so much courage to come to therapy. Now, you know, it's interesting if I ever say that to clients, most clients just dismiss that and they minimise that quality. And many may just say, well, the discomfort has, you know, got so high. There's nothing else I could do. And that might be true. And at the same time, takes lots of courage. So I sort of want to applaud that in this podcast in a way, because I think it does take a lot of courage to come to therapy. Yeah. And it takes a lot of courage as well to go to the places that therapists often invite the clients to go to in the service of cure. Yeah. Yeah, because I can remember my first therapy session. And it's really daunting. You know, you might not have met that person before. You might not know what they look like. You know, I was really stressed just about how to get to the Manchester Institute when I first started, you know what I mean, and parking. And literally, I was worried about everything. Never mind what would happen in the therapy room. Yeah, that's true. I think it's very common. And for myself, when I went to therapy, I remember dismissing that concept when my therapist said I was very brave or very courageous to come to therapy. And I said, I was one of those people who said, Oh, no, I just, you know, I had to come because there was no other way. But you know, in that process, I minimized the actual strength of character I had to come to therapy and to stay in therapy and to work through these things and to be able to go to those places of vulnerability. So I think it does take a lot of courage to come to therapy. Yeah. And I know many people are, well, I had to, you know, I did psychotherapy training, so I had to go in therapy, but I still think that takes a lot of strength of character and courage to come to therapy in the first place. And certainly to go to those dark places we often hide from. Yeah. It's not something that any of us want to jump into those dark places. We kind of teacher on the edges for quite a while. So that begs the question, of course, is how can we do this in the first place? And there is something true in the sentence, I believe, that I made all those years ago when I said, well, the discomfort was so high that I just had to go to therapy. I think that's true. And it still doesn't take away the fact that many people don't come. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I don't want to minimize the process of our own qualities and strength of character for clients that come through those doors in the first place, including you, whether you have the stress of parking your car or not. Yeah. And it was very stressful. I don't like Manchester. I live in a little village where there's just one road in and one road out and Manchester is just too busy for me. Do you think, the title of this, the courage to be human in the therapy process, do you think as human beings, we always aim to get back to balance? That's something that we're always trying to do. Yes, I think we're always striving to come to balance and always striving to come to some form of integration. Yeah. But we're just getting our own way a lot of the time with all the overthinking and all the... Yes. And in an earlier podcast, I talked about script. Yeah. And I think we follow a determined light plan that we made for survival purposes. So it's quite hard to change all those for all the reasons I've said in the podcast before. So I'm not going to go through them again. However, I do think there's an intrinsic process around balance, which the human organism is always striving to complete, if you like. Yeah. Which I think that's nice to know is that, underneath everything, that's what we all want, is to get back to balance. Yeah. Some modern theorists or therapists, or I don't even know what to be a therapist, might say what I'm going to say. They might say in another way and say, develop a sense of well-being. Yeah. And I think you're right. A sense of well-being demands balance. Yeah. The bones in and young. Yeah, definitely. And often we look outside for something to blame how we're feeling on. It's because, you know, I've just gone through a breakup or it's because my mum and dad got divorced when I was 10, or it's because of this, that and the other, to a certain extent, potentially as a bearing on it, you know, but we're the ones that need to make a change. We can't change the past, unfortunately. If we could, I think a lot of us would change a lot of it. Yeah, we know what we can do. We can change our response to a past. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a completely different thing. Yeah. But in doing that, we often have to go to these darker places I was talking about. And that's what I'm saying, humanity. Unfortunately or fortunately, whichever way we look at this, there's light and darkness over human condition. And I do think it's brave to go to those places. It's brave to be human with all those dark places and light places or warts or whatever we want to describe us, human organisms as, because it just takes a lot of courage, I do believe that, to be human in the thirdly process, to be there, to go to the dark places, to stay in the process takes a lot of courage. Yeah. Because, you know, it's light and dark and ying and yang and everything. When you think about it, we can't be happy 100% of the time. There's always going to be some down moments. And I think sometimes, clients want to squish it all up so that they're, you know, I can cope without the highs if it means I'm not going to come down. So they kind of try to squash everything. But I was, I think reframing is a really important quality to for therapists to learn. So when somebody says happy, I was reframing that because I don't know what happiness means. So I usually say, what's happening? And then they might say, actually, what I usually say sometimes, what does happiness mean? And before they answer, I say, do you mean something like contentment? Yeah. Because that's much more balanced. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I do believe in balance and integration as a way of going forward. But we need to, to do that, we need to go to both sides of the process, the dark and light side to get a sense of equilibrium, if you like. Yeah. Or even, you know, when we're in those places. True. Yeah. And they are, it's like a moving target because they, you know, we are constantly moving from one emotion to the other to a certain extent. And emotions, they're very confusing, Bob. You know, what I think is being happy and what somebody else, happy, what is happy? When you said that question, you know, what, what is it? It's not a thing, is it? You can't put it in a wheelbarrow and wheel it off. It's, I don't know what it is half the time. Well, I went for lunch with a dear friend of mine today. And she said, how are you, Bob? And now when somebody says that, it's like, interesting how you can respond back. Yeah. I responded back. Well, actually, I feel quite well. I answered back physically, not emotionally. Yeah. I feel quite well and rested. But you know, I'll think of your question. I think I did feel quite balanced inside myself. I could have given an emotional response back, but I felt quite contented. So that's the way I answered. And what a lovely way to answer. Yeah. Yeah. But you are right. I think that people in the, you know, whole road for, you know, change, if you like, they need to find balance and then integration. Yeah, I agree with you that. And it takes a lot of courage in that human. Yeah. Yeah. And in order, you know, to be, I'm not sure whether I've said this in previous podcasts, but, you know, in order to be vulnerable, we have to be courageous. I think the two come hand in hand. I don't think you can, you know, be vulnerable without being courageous, because it is something where was kind of stripped bare to a certain extent. I'm not sure whether there's any other area or room that feels like the therapy room where you are by choice, vulnerable. I agree with you. And I think another really important thing a therapist needs to do in a clinical sense and serve of the client is to applaud a person when they're courageous. Yeah. To validate them. Now they may not hear it, they may feel too overwhelmed to take it on board, but I think it's a good habit to get into. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the time, I think clients are quite shocked when you say that and you point it out. Many times. There's a wonderful book. It's about working with sexual abuse thrivers, actually, but it's called The Courage to Heal. Yeah. And it's talk about the courage to go to those dark places in the service of healing and not being able to go there or having the courage to go there. The process just continues. Yeah. Courage to Heal. I know it's about working with sexual abuse and trauma. However, I think I very much like the title and I'm a great believer in that title. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And as, you know, as therapists, whatever area we work in, I think it's an honor to be, you know, on the journey. I know we spoke about it in the last podcast to be on that journey with somebody that is, you know, healing and vulnerable and courageous. You see, it's an honor. It is an honor. He said to me in one of the podcasts, it wasn't the last one. Maybe it's toothy. He said something about taking words completely, but he says something like, oh, people just see being a therapist, talking to people or chatting to them. And you see, I would call that past timing. But if you actually go into places and asking people to go to dark places of vulnerability, then I think it takes a completely different process and courage has to be there. Yeah. I think a lot of the times friends of mine, you know, if I say something on a night out, they'll say, oh, are you trying to give me therapy? And I'm like, no, because you've not paid me for one and two. This is nothing like therapy unless they've been to therapy. They don't know what therapy is. No, they don't have, not at all. They have their own projections on that. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to take some of my friends in the therapy room and give them a proper session and say that's what therapy is. It's exhausting sometimes. It's very, I see, I think to be human is often a courageous part of this. But to be human in the visibility or with someone else is another story as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that about protection? Is it fundamentally part of being a human being to not be vulnerable and to protect ourselves? Oh, I think to defend, you know, I think the natural defences that you have are to keep us safe, secure and to get by in life. And we will do what we need to do to survive in that way. And that might be to do many of the things which are not, which get us by but actually aren't healthy. Yeah. In the long run. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because really, you know, in the therapy room, our clients are telling us all their Achilles heel, you know, they're telling us their deepest secrets and vulnerabilities and things. Yeah. Yeah. I've been interviewing people for focus to be, in other words, to go on off for your training program. Very well, Bob. Except the 12 people. I was thinking today when I accepted this person, you know, and in this conversation that we're talking about now, it actually also takes a lot of courage to be a therapist. Yeah. To go and train to be a therapist because as I explained to the people as they go along, there's different paths to be a therapist, but you need to have your own therapy. Yeah. And you need to see that as the top priority to actually become an excellent therapist, which will mean going to part of yourself pups that you haven't been for a while. And it's, I think, though they may not think about it, this is what I talk about at the interview process, it actually takes a lot of courage. Yeah. Yeah. To go along the path to train to be a therapist because of the therapy they have to have themselves. Yeah. And, you know, it's about trusting as well, you know, when you're in that process. Oh, that's a big one. You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's coming with a big word there, trust. Yeah. It is. It is a big word. And I think it plays out a lot, you know, when we're bringing the past into the present. I think trust, trusting another person and trusting ourselves is a big issue. Yes, it's a very big topic and I hope we're going to have a podcast on it, but to trust ourselves enough to be courage, to be courageous with another person and in terms of of, you know, transplants with our vulnerability and authenticity and spontaneity is one big process. Yeah. Jackie. Yeah. And there's an awful lot of people out there now with social media and, you know, Instagram and, you know, all that word. They're not real a lot of the time. They only show people what it is that they want people to see. And I think the younger generation, particularly, are even less likely to be vulnerable and authentic and show parts of themselves. Even with the advent of Zoom therapy. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's, you know, it's a big thing to be real and literally in the therapy room, we both are laid birth to a certain extent. There's, I don't know, I wanted to say then there's nothing to prove in the therapy room, but I think sometimes maybe clients think there is. And therapists. Yeah. Yeah. Who are driven by their own ego often. In fact, it's interesting, isn't it? It says the Nether podcast, you know, I know I gave you a very long list but I could go on forever. I know. One of the problems in therapy is egos. It's not, and it's not just clients. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And therapists need to leave their ego outside the room. And not to tend to be a perfect therapist, which is quite often the trap beginning therapists fall into, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's courageous. Yeah. Because we don't have all the answers. I certainly don't have all the answers. Well, there aren't any answers really. I mean, it's more, you know, biggest thing is being courageous enough as a therapist to help the other person sitting next to you to be courageous and trusting and all the things we're talking about as well. So it's like to, yeah, to have one house to be called a therapist and the other one house to be called a client. Yeah. Basically, it's two humans meeting in the service of the client really. Yeah, definitely. That's lovely. So being a human being, it's a tricky old thing, Bob. It's a very tricky thing. I'm not sure I've quite got the art of it, but it's a very tricky thing indeed. I quite agree with you on that. Yeah. No, but it is. I talk about being human a lot of the time and I think we do get in our own way, you know, and when we started off this about talking about being imbalanced, I think our, you know, our mind, body and soul is constantly looking to get back to balance. You know, sometimes I think people think that the mind or the thoughts or life is out to get them. No, I think you're absolutely correct. And, you know, for people who've had toxic histories, who've had a lot of difficulties and challenges where they've gone out of balance, the therapist's duty, if you like, and it's a big word, to help the person. First, we'll be aware of that and help them on the road to have a life which is balanced and harmonious. Yeah. And even when it's not to be able to get back there, we, you know, when life's always going to throw us a curveball, we, you know, it's not Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in the therapy room, you know, with a few clients, it's it's taken, you know, a half a session or even a full session just to ground them again when they come in the room to get them back to a place where Yeah, you're right. But you know, in the end, we're only in charge of our own responses. Yeah. And if a therapist can help the person be aware of that and go down that road, take ownership of their own responses and the control of life, then that's a wonderful thing. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Definitely. We have a choice in everything. I think the first step is to have an awareness around it. And then the second is that, you know, we have choices. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for that one, Bob. So the next episode is 53, believe it or not, and I was organised. I've got a title. Do you want me to tell you what one of them is? Tell me what the title is. The importance of intuition in the therapy room. Oh, one of them. This will be one of my favourite podcasts. I'm sure of that. My intuition is already saying that. I love it. You've got a very good intuition, Bob. Yeah. I love this podcast. I look forward to this. Okie dokie. So I shall see you on the next episode when we're talking all about intuition. Yeah, we'll take care. You too. Have a good week. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.