 Welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad you're here. Today we have with us Diana Farias-Einrich joining us. And she is CEO of Abra Marketing. She's bringing to us a wonderful conversation, ethical storytelling using consent. So stay with us because Diana's got a lot of really good insight to share. If you haven't met us yet, we are so glad to meet you. Julia Patrick is here, of course, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. We together are so very honored to have the collective support of our amazing sponsors. So shout out of gratitude. Goes to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, fundraising academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd as well as nonprofit tech talk. Again, these companies have been with us many since day one. Helped us to produce over 900 episodes and here's where you can find them. So you can scan the QR, download the app and you can still find us on broadcast and podcast platforms. So again, really glad to have you joining us today. Diana, we are thrilled to have you here. Shout out to another friend of ours, Cindy Wagman that connected us and invited us to make this connection so that we could have you on. So again, Diana has joined us, CEO of Auburn Marketing, welcome to you. Hi, thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here today. Well, we're excited to have you. Okay, let's back up and have you tell us what ABRA means. ABRA means there will be. And the idea is that there will be marketing whether you are intentional about it or not what you say or don't say says something about your organization. I love what you just said. What you say or what you don't say, it's women train. This is a great, great lens for us to have this conversation because one of my biggest things that makes me crazy is in marketing or when somebody is asked a question by the media and they're like, no comment. It immediately makes you look guilty, right? I mean, just this whole concept of exactly keep going kids. So I work with this. So you make my day. I don't care what else you say fabulous. All right, done here that. Our day is done. Have a good day. Let's start off with what is ethical storytelling? We bandied the word ethics about so much. And I think often we don't really even know what it means. It's just something that is over there in the back of our mind. So explain to us what this actually means. Yeah. So for me, ethical storytelling really started before I even knew what ethical storytelling was. So when I was a development and communications coordinator one of my very first assignments was to write stories about these 10 young women who had won scholarships. And these were young women who were young moms. They had kids. They were graduating high school and going on to college. And so that's where they were getting scholarships. And so my job was to write their bios and their stories and to publish them online as all good nonprofits do to share the impact that they're making. So I wrote the stories. I put them online, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, the website, the email marketing, all of those things. And we ended up with a really successful luncheon with all of this content and promotion of these young women's accomplishments. And so I felt really good about it because my mom was a young mother. And so I felt really good about essentially being a piece, a part of these young women's stories and really getting to celebrate them. And so I published them and everything went really well. And then a few weeks later, I overheard some colleagues of mine mention one of the girl's names. And of course my ear perked up because I got really familiar with them. And so I listened in and I overheard them saying that she had been in a domestic violence situation and her ex was being let out of jail. So I'm an advocate for survivors of domestic violence. And I knew immediately that everything that I had posted about this young woman, first name, last name, her kid's name, the program location that she was in could lead her ex back to her. And I mean, I had this sinking feeling in my stomach just like this blocked heart pit. And it just, I mean, you think there has to be a better way to do this. And the immediate aftermath, I did what I could to take back what I had posted. I took down the things off the website. I took down, I combed back through social media posts. I took down what I could, but one thing I always say is once you put something out there, it's out there. You can't control it. I couldn't take back emails. I couldn't take back things that people had shared. And so that left me with this feeling is there has to be a better way of doing this because I knew that if I had known what her situation was I would have never published anything about her. We would have found a different way to celebrate her. And so that to me is what ethical storytelling is. Ethical storytelling is taking into account the client's experience before, during and after the interview or the storytelling, right? To be able to find out what's going on with them and in their lives and taking that into account before publishing. Yeah. Well, Diana, thank you for sharing such a vulnerable story, right? There's so many ways that could have gone. And again, I commend you for having that feeling in your gut because I know for some people they'd be like, it's done. There's nothing else I can do, right? But you really took that to heart as the advocate you are. So again, just kudos to you. Many of us work with a very vulnerable population. Many of us work with individuals that we're just not completely sure of their stories. I'm curious, as you talk about this you really are bringing that lens, which I too didn't know what ethical storytelling was until I found out, right? But I've done so many stories myself, kind of the same. But this is switching, right? From the donor centric to the client. So I'm really curious how that move from donor centric to client centric has played a role in serving the community. Yeah. I mean, donor centric has its place and it's been around for a long time, right? And it's what we're taught as marketing and communications folks to focus on so that we can bring in the funds. It has its purpose. It's making the donor the hero of the story. But I advocate for clients to be the heroes of their own stories because at the end of the day they're the ones that are going through the transformation. And if we're going from donor centric to client centric storytelling, it means that, yes, you're thinking about how the donor is going to receive the story, but you also have to think about how the client perceives their own story, right? And bringing that into the process of your storytelling and making sure that they are proud of what you're saying about them and that they know everything that's involved with sharing their story publicly. 100%. Julia, we've talked about this a little bit before. It's kind of the make them cry story and getting on profits, use the clients themselves. We put them on stage. We put a light on them. Diana, they're not always ready for that. And they think they're ready, right? It's like, that is a very big moment. Can you talk to us about how you see that showing up in the community, pros and cons perhaps? Yeah, absolutely. So I've seen this actually play out on several stages. There's one instance where a young woman talked about, she was talking about her story of not having a place to live for her and her daughter and the organization that was providing housing to her asked her to share her story. So she goes up on stage and she shares her story. She's very proud of it. She's happy for herself and for her daughter that they have this place to live and she's grateful. So she wants to do what she can to share her story. So she shares the story, but she wasn't told that it was going to be on Facebook Live. And so her partner at the time heard her say her story and the way that she presented him was a way that he didn't like being represented. And so that created problems for her in the aftermath. And unfortunately, that's what I've seen happen several times with clients who are asked to share their stories on stage where they're not taken through this thought process of like, okay, are you sure you want to share this piece of your story? You don't have to share everything. Putting that no on the table and helping them think through like what happens in the aftermath and who's gonna listen to this and how are they gonna feel and how's that gonna make you feel, right? So that's kind of a piece of training that's lacking in the nonprofit world. Yeah. You know, I think this is why I'm such an advocate and it's a little bit more expensive but in the long run it saves you money of doing, you know, witness videos where somebody can witness what occurred to them, their story and their impact. And then there's time to edit it. There's time to reflect upon it. There's time to determine how this works and how this doesn't. Also it's a lot less fearful than standing up on a stage. No matter what you're doing, just standing up on a stage. I mean, not for Jarrett and I. There's moments, yes, there's moments. But you know what I'm saying? I think it's a lot, it's a more kind and more gentle approach to the process. And then you also have that content to repurpose and reuse. So it takes the story further. But I think that you are absolutely right to really look at how this impacts those around you and then to be viewed as somebody who's been involved in something that's really tough, right? Because there are a lot of people that work really hard to put themselves in a different light and not have that label. And when you do this, that label is back out there. And so it's a really, really hard thing. I want to kind of get into this a little bit more and ask you about the ethical storytelling best practices. For some of us that are like, wow, I never thought about this because I'm so working so hard on the event or whatever. How does this go beyond what we're just trying to do in that ballroom or at that luncheon? Yeah, well, first and foremost, it protects the client's privacy and dignity. It makes it so whatever you're putting out there is something that they can be proud of so that let's say 10 years down the line, they're on LinkedIn and they're looking for a new job that if their name gets pulled up in a web search that whatever that thing is is that they shared 10 years ago and that one chapter of their lives isn't going to come back to prompt them in a negative way. And the other reason why it's important to implement ethical storytelling as a best practice is that it protects the nonprofit's reputation, right? If you get a reputation for putting stories out there that are tear-jerkers and cross lines like that's the reputation that you're gonna have but it also is protecting nonprofits from potential lawsuits because as much as media release clauses give you permission to take a client's story or experience and share it, that doesn't actually protect you from them suing you. It kind of is like a forewarning but they could still sue you, that's still possible and even organizations like Save the Children have experienced lawsuits like that. And so with ethical storytelling the way that I approach it is to use a framework that I developed called informed consent conversations. So informed consent conversations really looks at things through a publishing lens. So there's four steps to it. The first step is to prep. That prep involves knowing what you're gonna be publishing, right? Is it gonna be, for example, the client speaking on stage or is it going to be a piece that you're gonna share with your local news or is it going to be a piece that you're gonna publish in your newsletter and on social media? It's really thinking through the end to product and not just like the storytelling piece. And it's also about vetting clients before you approach them for interviewing. So I always encourage marketers, communications folks to make best friends with your direct service staff. The ones who are taking care of the clients directly because they know what's going on there. And I was blessed to get to know a lot of clients because of this approach but there were still things that I didn't know about them. So one of my favorite things to ask a direct service person would be, is there anything that I should stay away from? Any subject piece of their story that they're not ready to talk about because they may be ready to talk about one area of their life but not the other, right? So I wanted to know that sort of thing ahead of time and then they would help me with recommendations. Oh, so-and-so has made really big strides. I think that they would be really proud to share their story at this time. The second step in informed consent conversations is actually conducting the interview. And this is essentially when a lot of communications folks get to meet the client for the first time, really like one-on-one. So I really like to set the stage for like, this is who I am, this is what I do in the organization, introducing myself first and like, why I'm passionate about that organization so that they get to know me, right? And it's not just like, okay, here you go, sit down and start asking them a bunch of questions, like personal questions about their lives. So it's really about helping them feel comfortable in the moment with you. And not comfortable to like elicit, you know, any kind of like vulnerability, but just so that there is some level of trust there that you establish with them and that you're gonna take care of them and throughout the process. And so the other thing with conducting the interview is to make sure that you put no on the table. And what that means is letting the client know that if at any point they change their mind about sharing their story or any piece of their story that they have every right to say no, and they have every right to change their mind, no questions asked, right? And so that's often like a, really? I've gotten that reaction of like, really? I can say no. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. You can say you don't have to share anything with me or with the organization or anyone for that matter, but you can if you want to. And so the third step is conducting what's called the stakeholder tests. And this comes from the practicalities of informed consent and development photography. It's an article published by Save the Children, the author is Nabila Idris. And in it, she describes a stakeholder test essentially as putting the context of what you're publishing into the context of a client's real life. So like we were talking about earlier, if you're gonna go up on stage and you're gonna be on Facebook Live, your friends and family could watch that. How are you gonna feel about that? How would they feel about what you said in this piece of your story, for example? Or if you're gonna publish an email newsletter, we're gonna send out this email and it's gonna go out to 2,000 strangers. How do you feel about strangers knowing this piece of your story? Or even a lot of folks are on social media. If we make a short TikTok about this and your friends see it, are you gonna feel proud to be associated with our organization or might you feel a little bit embarrassed? And that's where that prep work that you did in step number one really becomes essential because being able to truly get someone's informed consent is giving them all of that information ahead of time so that you can conduct this stakeholder test faithfully. And then the last step is to pass back the mic. So once the story is written or the video is done, I'm gonna share it back with the client and I'm gonna ask them, is there anything that you want to add, edit or delete? And remember that if you have, if you've changed your mind, you can still say no to the whole thing and we'll scrap it. It is what it is. And it's happened to me. I've had to scrap things. And it hurts, right? It hurts the communications person with all that like pressure, but at the same time, it's the right thing to do. Right, it's the right thing to do. I have a total curveball question, Diana, because I've been in the sector long enough to know that I know often stories come out and are recycled. They're repurposed, they're brought up years later. Sure. How might we address ethical storytelling if we're dipping back into what I'm gonna call the vault, right? Like we're going back into this. So I'm really curious, how can we honor ethical storytelling in the future? If that, I don't know if I'm making sense, but essentially like how to give that person the ability to say no five years from now. It's like, that's a great question. That's a great question, Jared, because that's a true thing that occurs. Absolutely. So I remember when I first started, there was a library, essentially, some very five, six year old stories, and that's what I had to work with at the time. I didn't have anything new. And I went to this presentation with a past CEO of Save the Children, and I asked this very same question. I was like, what do I do with it? Her recommendation to me was scrap the whole thing, delete it. That's what I was thinking. And I'm just really curious, because I know many nonprofits, and I don't want to stop you from the rest of your answer, we don't have a budget to do new stories every year, new videos, new photos, new everything. So I know we're often going back to that vault, but to hear someone say, just scrap it, like that's powerful too. So in doing the work, I've discovered that it really takes, you have to be really intentional about your storytelling rhythm and have everybody be on board with it, right? You can't operate as, even if you're the one person that's doing communications in your organization, you can't operate by yourself when it comes to storytelling. You need the support of the direct service staff. You need to be able to have access to the client. You need support from your executive directors. You need to be able to access all of that background information. And so establishing a storytelling cadence so that everyone knows what to expect at every moment. And so that everybody feels empowered to say, actually this cadence is not working. It's not working for our clients. And that's where you bring in the client-centric storytelling again. If it's not working for your clients, then it can't work for you. You have to rethink it. So yes, there's definitely like that, we don't have the budget for this and we can't be reproducing, but it's important anyway to take the time to make sure that it's working for everyone and especially the clients. Right, and at all times, right? At all times. Oh my gosh, we can talk to you forever and I wanna honor our time, but before we sign off with you today, talk to us about revolutionizing storytelling, how that's showing up and what does that mean? Yeah, so to me, revolutionizing storytelling really means that we're bringing diversity, equity and inclusion, justice into the storytelling process. So we've brought, nonprofits as an industry have brought DEI into their programs at every level and we're really sophisticated in that area, but when it comes to communications, marketing, fundraising, it hasn't made its way there yet. And so that's what revolutionizing storytelling is. It's doing that client-centric, community-centric type of fundraising and storytelling bringing DEI into this space as well. And it really is about taking responsibility for the experience that people have with your organization when they share their story, not just when they're going through the programs. And lastly, it's about changing the language that's used to refer to people, right? Because as soon as you put words like disadvantaged in front of something, you've already created an image of what a person is or isn't or what community is or isn't, right? So it's being really thoughtful about where you're placing your words and what words you're using. Because yes, we do have to talk about the mission and the need, and at the same time, we have to make sure that we're not inadvertently perpetuating stereotypes that we're not trying to perpetuate. Right, I think we need to be really careful about using the word victim. And I think that we, especially when you started off with domestic violence, I mean, that's really and something that we use these words without thinking about it and how it just never moves people along to a different point with which they might have achieved or they want to achieve. So yeah, very, very interesting. This is my curveball question. Do you see this getting better or do you see that, you know, it's not, people aren't understanding this, people are thinking that it's, we've got a job to do, we've got to raise money, we got to tell our story. And so this is more important than having this sensitivity and having this exercise. I love your four step approach to this. Yeah. Do you see that that's something that the sector is ready for? I think that, you know, there's a momentum building around ethical storytelling. Once you talk about it, people are like, oh, light bulb moment, right? You understand it. And yes, it takes time. And the thing is, is that this is the kind of thing that happens behind the scenes. So, you know, translating that into ROI for a nonprofit is really important. And that is definitely possible with some thought, with some effort put in behind it. And that's why it's really important for this to become a best practice, not just something that you do, you know, one time, but like that is a best practice so that it survives the comings and goings of anyone in an organization. Once it's the best practice in one place, every other place is gonna also want to make it a best practice. Yeah, 100%. And I think about the longevity of our digital footprint nowadays, right? And you had mentioned, you opened with this, you know, personal story of yours, Diana. And again, thank you. You know, there's screenshots now. There's so many ways for people to contain what was seen, even if we do our due diligence and go back in and delete some information, you know? Like it's still been disseminated. It's still been seen. It's still been captured, I'm sure, by someone. And so for us to really think through this, you know, kind of devil's advocate, it might take us a little bit longer to go through the processes. But as you said, it's the right thing to do. You know, it took me three years to develop this process. And, you know, I had colleagues for support. So if I was gonna say, if you wanna start this now, you know, I have resources available to help you, right? So that you don't have to take three years to start implementing this. That four-step process, you can start implementing that right away. Create a committee. Get your, you know, colleagues involved. Have a lunch and learn. You know, there's very small things that you can do to get them all rolling, right? The sooner you get it rolling, the sooner you're gonna get it. You know, you're gonna get there. Get it figured out. Yeah. And I think also just kind of getting the vocabulary right and letting everybody understand this is why we do it. This is where we're trying to move to so that we, you know, achieve our mission, vision and values. And we don't step back and create other problems for ourselves and for our clients. Well, this has been a fabulous conversation, Diana. I've really enjoyed it. We need to have more conversations like this across our sector. And this is something that the nonprofit show really gets behind. Diana Farias Heinrich, CEO of ABRA Marketing. And you're in Southern California, but you'll work everywhere. Do you- Yeah, absolutely. I'm blessed that my work can be done virtually. Absolutely. We need your type of work, my friend. We really, really do. It's an incredible story to tell often times with our nonprofits. And we feel like this is what we wanna do. And this is such a buzzword right now. Storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. And yet I don't think we really understand what it means or all that it takes to get through that arc of somebody's journey. So really great conversation. Hey, again, everybody, if we haven't met, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined today by Jared R. Ransom, the nonprofit nerd. I like to call her my nonprofit nerd. She can be your nonprofit nerd as well. And I also wanna say thank you very much, Jared, while I was traveling and doing some speaking that you took care of, everybody. I really, really appreciate it. And our sponsors appreciate you too. And they include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller, nonprofit tech talk, nonprofit nerd, and staffing boutique. They're with us day in and day out as we march towards our 100th episode of the nonprofit show. 1000th, don't cut it short. Yes, 100th. You know, I swear, it's because it's like a hard thing to say. So 100 was so long ago. Oh, long ago, like four years ago. But yeah, 1000, oh my Lord. I need to like put that up in the studio, like a little sticky. A ticker every day, it just turns a new number. Oh, I can't even believe it, Jared. That's crazy. Well, Diana, remarkable words today that you shared with us in the sentiment. It was just amazing. And we need to really hear more of this conversation. So we will invite you back to get some more clarity on this. As we end every episode, we'd like to remind ourselves or viewers, our guests, our listeners to stay well, so you can do well. So you can tell that story. How about that? Ladies, thanks so much.