 pop up appearing on your screen and what I'd like to do now is invite Parijita, a French language lecturer from DCU to start telling us a little bit about peer evaluation using Moodle discussion forum. Can you hear me there Rob? Loud and clear Parijita. Okay great, thank you. Thanks for organizing this. So my name is Aparajita De Pisono. I teach French in Salis and today I'm going to talk about an open collaborative way of doing peer evaluation or peer review on the loop discussion forum. I'm going to talk about the context and objectives of this activity, how it was conducted and some lessons learned from the experience. If you can change the slide Rob. So this is the context and the design for learning for the peer evaluation. The peer evaluation activity was part of the learning design for an intermediate module for third year undergraduate students learning French. This was during COVID and so various debates were conducted online between student groups as part of their synchronous activity and these debates were recorded and then made available for students on the loop forum for peer evaluation. Students were taught in class how to go about their peer evaluation. For this they were given methodological along with tools along with a list of criteria and then they engaged in peer evaluation via the loop forum as an asynchronous activity. Finally they received teacher feedback on their written productions and students took part in two iterations of this peer evaluation activity. The objectives were to introduce students to peer evaluation and in the process learn to give positive and corrective feedback, structure their written analyses, linguistically to use the conditional and subjunctive modes and master grammatical tenancies and specifically vocab in written French etc. Finally engage with their peers work critically and in the process engage critically with their own work so this was a more meta-level objective that we had. If you could change the slide Rob please. So students had to review their peers debates based on a list of criteria as I already mentioned and here is the list that was given to the students so they had to look at the content of their peers debates, the linguistic quality and the interaction management. The students also needed to draw lessons from their peers debates and apply them in their own future productions, oral productions and they also had to respond to three other peer evaluations on loop. So the students peer evaluations as I already mentioned were themselves evaluated by the lecturer that is myself based on a rubric that was put on loop. If you can change the slide Rob please. So on loop it's very easy to mark once the rubric criteria has been uploaded onto the forum activity on loop. One needs to click on grade users that's the button that I have kind of highlighted with the red lines over there on the forum activity page and then the list of students appear and drop down menu on the right hand side. If you can just click once again yeah and so as you can see the list of students appear and drop down menu then the lecturer can select a student for marking and then the lecturers as you can see on the right hand side the lecturers evaluation rubric for the forum appears next to the student's peer evaluation. So this is quite straightforward on loop and this is how we went about with the peer evaluations in a written format on loop. Now if we change this they change the slide again Rob please. So here's some of the feedback that I got from the students based on based on their learning experience. The fact that the activity was marked helped students engage with the peer evaluation that was something that really came out quite often from students. They said that had the activity not been marked they might not have engaged as much as they did with the peer evaluation activity. They also mentioned that the peer evaluation helped them with their own self evaluation that was one of the meta objectives that we had set for ourselves right at the beginning. They appreciated the fact that there were clear guidelines on how to go about the peer evaluation because otherwise they had not had an experience of this before and it would have been very difficult for them to engage in such an activity. Another thing to mention is that I also gave my students examples of good student production to help them to help them with their final productions and they also appreciated the fact that the learner voice was involved in assessment and learning activities because as the module coordinator and lecturer I was constantly consulting the students and asking if everything was okay if they had any difficulty and also the fact that they were somehow contributing in this evaluation of the students debates of their peerless debates. So they appreciated being involved in that process. Another thing that they really appreciated was the technological affordance of the recording. Students said that the recordings allowed them to engage with the synchronous debates more deeply and helps them with their asynchronous analyses and one issue that students really felt strongly about was the lack of anonymity. Students said that very often they would have to call their partners separately or peers separately to apologize for being critical or for adopting a critical stance with regard to their work or sometimes even felt offended if someone was too critical with their own work in their comments etc. So that was a bit of an issue which going forward I will definitely address and I will anonymize the peer evaluations through the loop workshop and that's it my five minute presentation. I hope I didn't go too much overboard. Thank you very much Aparajita that was wonderful. What I'd like to do now is invite Robert Glander as a lecturer in business at DCU Business School to tell us a little bit about what he has done with peer assessment in the past. Cheers Rob and yeah do let me know if I start to ramble too much. So I'm an economist in the business school here in DCU and the problem as I saw was one of my modules was taking me a long time to grade one, five, two weeks and it was also clear from talking to students that you know it's finally a module and across finally they were feeling a bit over assessed. There also wasn't too much attendance at these classes which was a kind of a common problem for that degree program and I thought well instead of having them write two essays as you can see on this slide was the case I'd come up with a better solution. It's also the case that we had what I call integrity issues. They were clearly buying essays off the darker corners of the internet. Parties to the transaction was being translated into the birthday celebrations to the transaction and the less said about what their auto to source essays did to the term gender gaps the better. So we have this problem across kind of all around. So if you click on there Rob thanks. So I said instead of getting to write two essays what I'm going to do is get them write one essay and I'm going to give them a really quite detailed rubric and tell them I'm going to follow it really closely. So what I did there was all the essays were submitted anonymously and we set up a system whereby everyone got someone else's essay back and nobody knew their own grade so everyone had an essay from someone else with no grades out in the wild and what I did was and this did not go down all that well is I adjusted the students own grade for their first essay based on how accurately they graded the second essay because my whole jacket here was they're going to leave this class knowing how to write an essay and they seem like a pretty good way to get them to figure out what a what constitutes a good essay and you can see there the the the the the the grading scheme for every three percent off they were from the grade I gave the essay they were given the grade they would lose one percent of their own tally. So next slide there Rob please. Now that was the the the the mad scheme I dreamed up but it's worth saying that wouldn't have actually happened if it wasn't for my most excellent colleagues Fiona and Shadi Fiona came up with a really excellent rubric that I continue to use in other classes to this day and Shadi did some some loop wizardry that I might introduce you to but not be able to talk too complicated too much detail about so thanks Shadi and Fiona why would this work well I figured you're not taking this all that seriously in terms of writing their own essay and or some integrity issues so I figured I just while I was teaching them about behavioral economics I came up with an idea to kind of behavioral economics them seems to be a quirk of of human behavior that we put a higher weight on things that they already that we already think we own rather than things that we we stand to gain so losses way more heavily so I figured I'd make them up with a system whereby they they're going to lose things lose a grade for being wrong and they would put it they would put a heavier weight on that the rubric also gave really clear criteria what a good essay looks like and and the idea was that well we get some higher attendance and that was true right up until after the essay was due and then it plummeted very very low and and then I thought might help them with their critical thinking and engagement skills which are things are quite interesting in the business school and we have some evidence that that was the case so I have the next slide there Rob please this is what the rubric looked like as implemented in loop so as I said Fiona and I worked to to come up with the kind of the criteria and Shadi made it work in loop so when students were given the the essay they had to grade they could just click into the wee boxes there I give the marks that they they thought were warranted for each those those categories next slide please Rob so did it work and I said this is not some sense that it worked in terms of getting to come to class for the first chunk of the course at least and they definitely seemed to think it was a useful the rubric was useful in terms of the gate they agreed with it that they agreed that they engage with it and they felt it was useful in terms of writing their first essay next slide please Rob and did it work in terms of fostering their critical thinking now it is important to remember that not only did they vocally express their disappointments that I've come up with this assessment when I told them about it in the class the most satisfying sigh of horror I've ever heard they brought it up in the program board that they didn't like it and they kept telling me they didn't like it but even though they didn't like the assessment they agreed that it most of them agreed that it was a helpful useful thing to do as we saw from from this survey next slide please Rob Fiona implemented a focus group and these are the words that that came up stinking essay no you know these they seem to come out that this was a useful thing to do in that regard next slide please Rob and we wrote this up as a paper if any of you're interested how it worked it was great to see that the the technology that Shadi implemented in Luke and the rubric that we devised and led to the students being able to conditional on you accepting the idea that I can write an essay accurately the students were able to do it really accurately very few of them lost more than 1% you know very few of them were more than 3% out on what I believe to be the accurate grade and none of them were were essentially none of them lost more than 2 marks and so students I believe left that class with a good sense as to what I considered to be a good essay anyway it reduced their workload quite a bit in terms of having to write an essay reduced my workload quite a bit instead of having to grade 250 I had to grade 125 and the the technology really made that all possible in terms of delivering you know allocating everyone an essay in the background was was a complicated thing to do as well so that's my five minutes I hope Rob. Thanks a million Rob thanks so much for that really interesting another way of doing peer assessment and involving Moodle and we're going to look at a third way to do this and I'm going to invite Noel Murphy from engineering here in DCU to share his screen and take us through his approach to peer assessment with the Moodle workshop activity. Rob thank you very much I hope you can see my screen there now at this stage thank you so I am a novice with workshop but I have some of the zeal of the converted I learned it at this time last year with a couple of emails of guidance from Rob and consulting the online documentation and so on so it is not something that's hard to learn I would encourage everybody listening today to try to have a go at it and use it in real life as soon as you can it is if you're committed to using it you'll find out the things you need and I'm going to give you some pointers today so I'm not going to talk about the social or learning engineering aspects that my colleagues have talked about I just focus on the mechanism of workshop it's an odd name for something that's really about peer assessment but not resending that it supports peer assessment of other student submissions as you can imagine it also supports instructor assessment of the original submissions and instructor assessment of the peer assessors if you want to do that and typically we try to grade every student on both of those aspects but I would have other people helping me to do it and that tails off a little bit towards the end of semester as the students become really proficient at doing this themselves you can have random or controlled selection of your peer assessors and it supports anonymous assessment but unfortunately that's not the default configuration and we're going to show you how to fix that it also supports self-assessment but you can exclude that if you wish generally there are two grades that need to be weighted into the final result in five minutes I don't have time to talk to you about grading but I'll give you some pointers as to where you can find more that's probably the more complicated side of it but you and you really do need to read into it but you can do it without worrying too much about the details workshop has got four phases and then a closed state at the end so the setup phase which I'll focus on today the submission phase the assessment phase the grading evaluation phase and the closed state but basically if you get the setup phase right the others follow quite logically so you don't have to worry too much what I've done here is I've taken a still shot from one of my own modules I couldn't show you the original screen because student information appears at just at the bottom of this but you'll see the four phases setup submission assessment and grading and you'll also see these green tick marks that I'm going to mention they guide you through the operation of this so for example edit assessment form that's where you set up your rubric and here you can see there's somebody is still pending so there's something flagging to me there that I haven't done something that needs to be done now just why just to show you if I go back if I click on that little icon there I get to the setup phase where I control the different aspects of the operation of the activity and it's pretty standard if you've done an assignment before with some additional things like I've selected rubric setting here and you can see the other submission settings the assessment settings I just expand that out this is where you need to get everything set up here you can see there's a good bit of writing in some of the boxes where I am giving instructions to the students as they're preparing to to do this assignment and to do the assessment phase so you can see the sort of things that you might expect there while I'm on this screen I just want to show you this is linked in my slides there's a 10 minute peer review introduction to workshop there and in the in the moodle documents and really if if you do that 10 minute review you'll have a good overview of what you can do in workshop so you set it up as you normally would with any assignment then you've to go through those things I've just shown you in terms of edit settings and configuring those settings that's where a lot of your work will be and it's fairly straightforward and exact quite like what you have done previously in other assignments and the green ticks have already indicated to you they sort of guide you through what you've done and what you haven't done so watch out for that and then in the edit assessment form you configure the type of assessment and here I'm just going to show you what my rubric assessment setup looks like so I had three criteria in my rubric you can see the heading for each criteria you can see the evaluations I haven't used all of the potential grades I think I've used seven out of the 11 that I could have used there but they're to do with things that are not just technical things but the quality of the writing the quality of presentation the evidence of their understanding the understanding of mistakes made demonstration of learning outcomes being met that sort of thing I was looking for and finally then I think the last thing I'm going to say is that's what it looks like when you're going to edit settings but I want you to point you at this permissions thing here the first time I ran this one of my class reps had to tell me that they could see who they were assessing and vice versa and so I had to switch off the thing very quickly and email Rob and figure out how to change this permission setting so this is what it looks like if you click on that permissions you come in here and you see there are two big columns there's roles with permission and roles that are prohibited and you're going to have to scroll down here to where it shows the and I had it highlighted but show author names or view author names and you'll see here I have the student under the prohibited category and then show reviewer names and I have the student under the prohibited category now you'll be able to figure out how to move the student from the center column to the right hand column and that's the key thing that if you do nothing else today I want you to go away saying yes workshop is fairly straightforward to use but there's one key point which is I need to make sure that it's anonymous and that's described at that link so my overall message is that workshop is robust it's you can swap between those phases without losing data without messing things up significantly so don't be afraid to play with it and it's fairly what I would call moodle intuitive I don't find moodle very intuitive but if you're used to moodle you'll find that workshop is quite intuitive I would say commit to using it learn it as you go and just remember that you do have to go into those permissions to make things anonymous that's me Rob wonderful no thank you so much I'm going to pause the record hand over to you Cormac. Rob thanks for inviting me and hello to everybody us and so I'm going to be giving a presentation now so my name is Cormac and I'm a lecturer down at the School of Science and Computing and I know Attain and Gareth are both here as well so Attain is a fellow lecturer and Gareth is in Computing Services so they'll be there to answer any questions for all of the bits that I put out there and so in terms of the talk Rob said come tell us a bit about analytics so it's going to be in that sense a pretty broad talk in terms of the things that we're doing and if you're looking for detail you can get and touch afterwards or maybe there's a few resources we can send you towards and in terms of the team it's definitely not just the three of us so there's actually a whole team that's working now and we've gotten various bits of funding for bits of projects from the national forum and from internal funding and so we have myself and Attain are the two academically on the project but then we have people in computing services graduate technicians and we have a research student as well UK who started this year so there's quite a number of people working and this has been going on for a little while and before I do any talk on analytics I always like to kind of set the set the groundwork as to what exactly analytics is so if you look up you know what's analytics you get this kind of commercial graph where it says that we start with descriptive and you describe and then you diagnose and then you predict and all of a sudden you're going to be prescribing interventions and I mean that's grand for a company where your single sole aim is to make money and there's a very clear relationship between having made money and how I achieved my goal but from an academic perspective it actually can work very poorly and so I put this Charles Goodhart picture up here and you're probably familiar with Goodhart's maximum when a measure becomes a target it's no longer a measure and that really applies for everything you do in analytics if you discover some relationship in analytics and you then try and use that to change your students behavior it's likely to not have the intended outcome because students are very adaptable in terms of how they try and deal with the systems that we put in front of them and the other issue is that academia has quite a few different targets we've got a lot of different stakeholders you know we've got industrial stakeholders who want our graduates to be good employees but we also have the lecturers who need to be able to deliver their content and the students who want to get out and maybe not just get a job but society that needs rounded people in general so I would caution when we think about analytics as not thinking of it as a singular thing but thinking about something that happens at many levels that there are you know institutional level reporting which can happen manually but also ideally and what we're working on now in the green sections is mapping data flows to get presentation layers to have these things happen automatically but historically what we've been doing in the research group as it's grown has been looking at things on a personal and course level looking at learning object analytics feedback sheets you know system specific analytics and I'm conscious that this is a Moodle specific you know lunchtime talk but Moodle sits within a big ecosystem of all sorts of different sources of data so you'll see that as we go through we start in Moodle and then we're trying to integrate that into a larger project the other part you know and this is a very quick three-minute intro to something that you can talk about for probably the entire series of lectures is that if you're going to do analytics you have to have a policy that underwrites it so if your institution doesn't have a policy you need to be asking that a policy be put in place and there are kind of three important parts of this so one is compliance with things like GDPR and your student contract and making sure that you are not putting yourself at risk of liability the other is that you have a duty of care to those that you are doing analytics on or about or whose data you are using and to make sure that you are using it for an appropriate purpose so that you are trying to empower students to achieve success that they want to achieve and that they know what's going to happen and that you're aware of potential biases and this is coming down the tracks not just from a GDPR perspective but also from an AI regulation perspective because we're about to get very heavily regulated from an AI perspective as well but we don't really have time to get into that the other thing that is really important for setting out in policy is that there is a duty of care to staff in that learning analytics won't be used for staff evaluation because a number of colleagues that we've said oh we want to do this learning analytics thing and they say oh no way I don't want that and then we're like it can't be used to evaluate you that's set in stone in the policy and then they're like oh well actually okay I'll give it a go that's a really important part of policy I think to get in place that we're certainly to clarify for people so they know what they're getting into and at the moment you've probably heard GMIT is transforming into a technological university so we're actually reviewing that as part of a technological university transformation funded project and with letter Kenny and Sly Gorn trying to come up with a new policy that incorporates the changes in regulations so before I get into some of the examples what I would say you've probably seen this from the TV all of the the people in the data that follow here are purely invented and fictitious and any coincidence is just that so there's no personal data it's all created or synonymized data in terms of looking at what we can do you know if we start right back at the beginning Moodle actually is really rich in terms of specific object analytics that you can do and in terms of setting up your grade book many of you may or may not be familiar if you go look at the grade book you can pre calculate all of the different grades and the students can see what they need to see and then you can set out things like the progress bar so if you haven't used the progress bar plugin and your students have more than two assignments a term I would really suggest that you get there it's useful not just for the students but also for the lecturer you get an instant one page overview of what every student in your class is doing and you can use that as a direct observation of you know not engaging engaging and then you can actually contact them directly through that so there's really simple analytics that we use in Moodle and there are other things like the heat map that can give you just you know feedback in terms of what you're doing what the students actually access so are they accessing the quizzes they need to or are they not you know and they exist and I would recommend if you haven't seen them that you check them out but beyond that then Moodle actually is gathering an awful lot of data and historically myself and the team sat down and we said well we have you know all of these data points and these students how are we going to get it back to them and so our initial analytics project was a really manual kind of thing where we said well we want to make personalized feedback forms so rather than sitting down and writing two three or four hundred letters to the students saying this is your performance we just download the data from the BLE so we take out the attendance we take out the grade book and then we can categorize and automate responses and that's a you know computation you have just computer science lectures here they're probably like oh god that's so crude but it works really well it's it's semi-automated we can extract all of that if you're interested in how this works you can have a look at there's a how-to on the teaching and learning and oral project and there's a book chapter there if you want to read more detail about it and but we literally just take our comments that apply to different grades and different activities and we match them all up and we create a letter and we give that back to our students and in terms of analytics and output that's really useful the head of department has those 300 letters they can see how the students are doing they can just control an F and search through and each individual student has the little dashboard of how they're doing and the feedback on that over the years that we've done it has been really positive so 90 plus percent of students always find it useful and many of them then changed their behavior the lecturers find it useful the department heads find it useful and they're all really happy about it and it's all predicated on the one idea that we have clean data inside moodle so again don't have time to get into it but if you want to read about it and we've written things about it or there's a lot of information there right designing your assessments to have clean and reliable data that you can get back so that you're not doing too much work and then the analytics is just applying categories and doing that in a semi-automated way I want to go through one or two examples of use cases in moodle before we get on to the you know last five minutes of the presentation so if you're a chemist this will be a really typical thing for you or if you're a scientist and you do a lab of any kind you know that you hand out a lab and then students fill in the results and at the end of those results you correct it and you hand them out back to the students and you never get any analysis beyond that in moodle you can use something called a formula question and the formula questions are incredibly powerful and again you could spend hours talking about these but you can ask students to input their own specific data and do their calculations on their own specific data and that's beneficial for the students because they no longer feel like they're just doing random numbers in moodle but it's also benefit beneficial for the lecturers from an analytics perspective so I mean it really benefits the students because it's much better that the student can see if what they're doing in their lab book is specifically right or wrong rather than a general case but then you know after they've put in all of these different numbers and they've been evaluated using criteria you have this massive collection of all of the results from your however many students are doing your lab and all of a sudden you can start to look at analytics and you know this is a really trivial example but we get them to do four or five titrations in the term the first acetic acid titration you can see that the results are there's not even a distribution there it's just random you know random number generator by the students but by the term time progresses on you can see that you get this nice normal distribution around what the right answer should be and you can you can you know analyze that distribution for how accurate or inaccurate you think your class is and how well the teaching is going and then you can see some of the different outliers and you can analyze why the students make those mistakes and it's analyzing the mistakes that lets you you know make use of these analytics and give feedback so again if I were to recommend something I'd say formula questions there's a big barrier to entry but there are how-to guides out there and I've made a few and I would suggest writing some questions and there are other simpler ways of doing that so just simple calculated questions where you show them a picture and you ask them to do something but again simple item level analytics download all of the information that's stored for that one particular thing and you can get really interesting tracking of how your students are progressing and are they making use of the feedback and you can see if they are or if they aren't but this is all stored you know this is possibly the bit that Rob is interested in it is like what's the bigger picture and this is the bigger picture now that's it that's you know that is a bigger picture it's a really small slice of what's stored inside Moodle Moodle is a set of tables uh relational tables with all of the information every interaction that anybody ever has with Moodle is stored in there and then all the different plugins have have or may have their own um subset of tables and so from an overview point of view one of the problems for our project was how do we how do we query that and the easiest way to query that from a it's simple to do kind of way is to use the configurable reports plugin in Moodle now if you ask your admins to install the configurable reports plugin in Moodle and let you have a go at it the correct answer that they should give you is no and no we will not do that because it lets you run direct SQL queries on a live database and you know while that is it's super powerful you know it's great you can just write out your SQL and query and you can actually you know there are serious potential issues here because you can query any course any any table that you happen to know you can query it once you're set up on this and it's a really good lesson for how to find the data that you want and can you reliably extract it back out again so configurable reports if you are thinking about starting analytics project to pull the data out of Moodle is a great place to start but it's a terrible place to continue from it's entirely not scalable and you can see you know 215 records a small execution time but if I start running really complex queries and joining all these different tables and I push Moodle to breaking point people are going to be very unhappy with me so the other possibility is to use the API architectures that exist for just pulling the data out of Moodle in a much more efficient but also in a method that's not going to hang the database and so the Moodle API is what we now use and it allows us to extract whatever table we happen to want that we know the location of out into a separate storage area and then we use Power BI to create analytics from that on an automated basis and then we can present those analytics secure using single sign-on using Microsoft Teams and of course Power BI sorry Moodle is not the only data source that we want to use one other example that we're going to look at today is SharePoint but literally any other data source can then be joined in a secure location inside Microsoft Teams or any other you know container that you might like if you're a Google canvas in terms of Power BI again there's many lecture series out there on how to use Power BI but essentially it's a piece of software that will allow you to easily combine different sources and create relational tables so that each of the different data sources regardless of where they come from if they have a single usually email address identifier or ID number identifier you can bring them all together and when you do bring them all together you can process them and then you can create a data map and so this is our current plan for a data map and this as a picture isn't really useful but I'm going to skip over to our teams and have a look and we can see that the idea is that we present for a cohort of lecturers a secure dashboard that will present them the information that they need to see about what their students are doing and we can then start to bring in information from the access or sorry from the school office and who may have you know six search or things like that that shouldn't be in lecturers hands or the access office where there's learning supports needed that only very specific information needs to go to specific people but because it's secured through single sign on and it exists within our already secure environment we don't have to worry about our analytics spilling over into other areas so if I just skip over from that and have a look at our sample dashboard and again this is just you know our our college is not full of illiterately named people but you can take the Moodle data out you can look this is just done for two modules for maths and chemistry and you can apply criteria and if the students are doing poorly relative their peers then you can flag them and you can describe them as at risk and we can pull up all of the at risk students and we can see why they might be at risk or we can look at the students by department and so on and so forth and that's great so that's a single interface to look at the kind of data that we have and what's really useful then is to be able to combine all their data sources so things like the access office information you know these students need these particular supports and are supported by this is your contact person and of course then you can slice those or filter them out so you just have the people that you're interested in your list depending on you know what you're looking for you can also have a set for certified absences so they all appear in the one place and they're no longer done by you know one-off emails or ad hoc lists sent in excel sheets so we can integrate our Moodle into a full analytics environment and what's nice about that if we just go back for a second is that this data the data that accompanies the Moodle mark so that you know information that students are giving back to lecturers can be reported back using a simple SharePoint list and that SharePoint list brings to life the information that's given to us from Moodle so it's all well and good knowing that your student is below 40% but you possibly need to know that they are registered with the access office or that the reporting you know whatever the reporting or that they've deferred already and you need to stop worrying about them and so whichever the relevant person can look at this list with the relevant columns and input the data and then the columns that are relevant for another person can be extracted out and presented in turn so that's where we're at at the moment in terms of our dashboards and our you know what we're working on at the moment is we're making a pilot for just our school of science and the plan is in the next year or two that this will be running out in our institution and then in the larger institution that exists hopefully early in the new year so that's kind of where we're at I just skip back to the slides and so these are some pictures in case that didn't work and final thoughts just remember that when you're analyzing your data you shouldn't have automated actions unless somebody looks at it so some automated actions are fine like a reminder that your assignment isn't submitted but things like you know referring people to support services or informing students that they failed the course definitely needs the human intervention and that duty of care exists all right I'm sure there will be some questions hopefully I can answer them thanks Rob. Thank you very much Corwin.