 Hi y'all, I'm Cammie Chaos. I want to acknowledge that I haven't done this in front of people in almost three years, so hi Welcome to my nightmare. It's really lovely to see you all. I Want to thank the organizers and all of you for having me here. What I'm talking about today is super important to me It is in fact so important to me that I think it needs to be important to all of you and everyone else But for a number of reasons it seems to fall through the cracks more often than not and that is DEI and B But before I do that I want to tell you just a little bit about myself because I genuinely do like to know a little bit more about person He's about to talk at me for 20 minutes. So My name is Cammie Chaos as I said, I'm from Portland, Oregon. I'm a mother. I'm a daughter. I'm a partner I am a cat guardian to an amazing elderly kitty And I'm also the person who leads the DEI cross team in talent at automatic Which is why I'm here to talk to you about divest diversity equity inclusion and belonging But first I'd like to start with a land acknowledgement today I honor the indigenous people whose traditional and ancestral homelands I stand on the kumya from millennia the kumya people have been a part of this land The land has nourished healed protected and embraced them for many generations in a relationship of balance and harmony as Visitors to and members of the San Diego San Diego community. We acknowledge this legacy For those of you at home and for those of you who might like more information on this when you're at your homes If you're interested in learning more about the land on which you reside, please go to native-land.ca All right as I've acknowledged this is awkward for me Those of you who know me know that I want everyone to feel as comfortable and safe as possible I've spent most of the last decade trying to create safe spaces comfortable spaces for people here within the WordPress community and Sometimes I did an amazing job. I'm not even going to pretend I didn't and sometimes I did not do a great job And when I didn't do a great job, I made a point of working hard to do better But sometimes even better didn't feel like it was enough and sometimes not doing a great job Was because I like to feel comfortable and I like to make others feel comfortable But it turns out that just letting some people sit in their own comfort Leaves a lot of other people on the outside looking in Feeling excluded feeling unwelcome feeling unrepresented and feeling othered and feeling uncomfortable, which is What I want to avoid in the first place, right? So I would like to point out to you that if you are not being intentionally Inclusive you are being unintentionally exclusive So if you only take one single thing away from my talk today, please let it be the DEI be work Belongs to everyone it is not just work for underrepresented and marginalized people in most cases people from marginalized groups are the ones who are doing all of the work and that is because if we don't do that work That work is going never to get done So as an example as a woman Which is a single part of my identity not the whole of it when I do the work of promoting feminism and fighting sexism I'm doing it in large part because I've lived in a world that has treated women like second-class citizens my entire life I have been the only woman sitting at a table. I have been the only woman at a conference I have been the only woman on a panel And it's not something that I have relished Sometimes I wanted to stay home and stay quiet and not be a part of this giant machine that doesn't seem to understand me But I showed up anyway so that even one other woman who showed up or one person from a marginalized group that showed up Would know that they weren't the only other so This part is specifically for you folks who sound like look like present like those who have built this system that we live in I want you to hear today that DEI be is your job It's your job to you need to do the work if we really want to make this community a better place I'm used to hearing from people in positions of power and privilege that they do not feel comfortable Engaging in DEI work and I understand because I don't feel comfortable Engaging in DEI work either So as we dive into the rest of this talk, please hear That the work of building a more diverse Inclusive equitable community where everyone can feel a sense of belonging Especially is the work of those especially With privilege and it's never going to feel comfortable for you Now I'm going to zip through the rest of my talk as quickly as I can without talking too fast I hope because the part of this that I really enjoy the most is Discussion and I don't feel like DEI should be done from a soapbox. I feel like it should be a comfort a few So some definitions diversity is highlighted when the differences in a group of people The opposite of a diverse group is a homogenous group So when we talk about diversity in this context, we meet people with different lived experiences From a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different races genders sexual orientations religions casts education levels income partner status just to name a few pieces and I would be remiss if I didn't include another very important part of the diversity puzzle, which is disability disability is often overlooked and Diversity I want to call this out specifically There is no diversity without disability and accessibility in this case We're looking at diversity as the differences within a group of people a single person me myself I'm a single person I cannot be diverse from myself because I'm just me There are two e-words that are often used interchangeably here and they are not interchangeable we've got equity and equality They're not the same thing when we talk about DEI. We're specifically talking about equity Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and different needs and sometimes different Resources need to be allocated to meet those needs and to give people opportunities for an equal outcome So I'd like you to imagine we're standing near a park and We're looking at two kids and there's a fence and one of the kids can see over the fence You can see their whole face and the other kid is down by the fence and he's just He's down. He he can't see anything at all mmm Next to them are two crates now if we wanted To have equality we would get each those two kids one of those crates and they could stand on them And then the taller kid would still be able to see over the fence and watch the ball game and the shorter kid Well, I hate to tell you but they're still I level with the fence So equity is if we give both of those boxes to the shorter kid because then guess who can see over the fence Does that make sense? Inclusion is the action or state of including or being included with a group or a structure It doesn't necessarily reference how the person feels when they're being included. It's kind or fair It just speaks to someone being included We need to make sure that it is more than that It's about making a place that works for others based on their needs and their lived experiences Not just on the lived experiences of the people who created the situation And then sometimes we tack the letter B on to the end of DE and I and I've told you that I make silly mistakes The first time I saw a DE IB conference. I Assumed that it was DEI in business and I was like, oh, yes, that's for me. I'm in business. I did DEI fantastic But I googled it and I started to learn more and now I understand that it Speaks to belonging and making space where people are able to bring their whole authentic selves To their community to their work to their roles and ensuring that they feel welcome accepted and valued and in another quick comparison If you want someone to feel like they belong you don't ask them to make themselves at home in your Awkward space to them you find out what you can do to make it feel more like a home to them Okay now that I have played the part of the DE IB dictionary and we have defined some basic terms So we're on the same page. I'm going to tell you that to some people this stuff just doesn't matter They have reasons and they think that they are sound and they make sense to them And they go along in business the way that they have always got along in their lives with a homogenous group of like-minded individuals and I have heard people complain that this is business. It's not a family It's not a support group and that business is survival of the fittest Something well, they should just work a little bit harder for it, but that is not how equity works, right? So when you ask me why DEI is important my first and visceral reaction is to tell you that it is the right thing to do But as a person I already shared that I want people to feel welcome and included and comfortable It goes beyond that. I want people to feel safe and wanted and welcome. I want them to feel seen I want them to feel heard and to know that their input matters Our communities are made better spaces For the wealth of diversity that we can welcome and I will do whatever is needed to make that happen so that I can make this space that we're all sharing of Sacer we can all be together and be our true selves, but that's feelings not business So let me tell you the business side of it in this case The right thing to do is also the smart business move to do when you have one person you have a single perspective And you have their skill set and you have their life experience and everything that they bring to the table But one person is one person and they're going to build something for themselves. They're going to be Who's deeply involved in their lives and that's what it's going to work for when you bring in a second person Do you want? Another person who's just like the first person. Do you want that same skill set? Do you want that same life experience? I Would prefer someone with a different life experience with different training with different knowledge with different skills Not someone who's learned all the same things and it has been proven that more diverse and inclusive teams are more Innovative and build better products a homogenous group of people will most often Reinforce their own experiences and expectations and it just becomes an echo chamber So back to the beginning when I'm saying if you're a person in place of Don't ask other humans particularly underrepresented or marginalized individuals to do this work for you. It's your job That's asking them to do emotional layer labor and So if someone says something that comes off as sexist racist ableist and a marginalized individual calls them out on it the person who has said the thing Should apologize sincerely They should then research how they can do better and Move along don't ask the person who called you out on it to teach you to be a better person Everyone will be super-duper glad that you want to be a feminist or anti-racist or an LGBTQIA Ally or someone who promotes accessibility, but it's not their job to tell you I know that this is challenging. This has been a journey and a struggle for me as well If there's a person with privilege in a dominant culture, which I am you think that this is challenging for you Marginalized people which I also am Have spent every moment of their life being part of a marginalized group. That's their lived experience Now there's an exception to don't ask them You can't just ask someone to do it like don't tweet something that's racist when someone calls you out on it Says it's racist turn around and ask the person why it's racist. It's not okay You've the internet you can Google it But you can and you should pay experts from ice groups for their expertise and advice as a woman I don't wake up in the morning Not living in a patriarchal society on some days So I'm tired of fighting for women's equity and equality. I don't want to fight for my rights I just want someone hand me like the best gluten-free chocolate chip cookie that has ever existed and tell me that for now on I'm going to be paid the same as my straight white male counterparts Yeah, I Want to hear that from this moment forward people will not interrupt me when I'm speaking in meetings and oh By the way, the brilliant idea that I shared 10 minutes ago that someone just rephrased Will be credited to me and not the person who just repeated back what I said I don't want to help men fix a systemic problem with sexism Because I've spent my entire life dealing with the emotional damage that it's caused It's the same for every person who's member of a marginalized group, but potentially 10,000 times worse Because we haven't even talked about intersectionality yet But you can have privilege and be part of a marginalized group. You can have privilege and be part of many marginalized groups We don't have one single identifying trait as a human that makes us who we are We're all built up of different parts and pieces of our identities So I'm going to repeat to you what I tell my daughter when she asks me a question that she could easily find the answer to herself Google it When I was a kid it was what does this word mean or how do I spell it and my parents version of it was you know We have a dictionary Google has way more information than the dictionary did We have vast resources at our fingertips most days So if you're not sure of something if you don't know what something means if you're concerned that something that you are saying or doing is or could be perceived as racist sexist classist ableist exclusionary Whatever it is do the research look it up and see what you can find out online. There are also these things called books We have them both in digital and like tree format And there are a lot of them out there there are essays there are blog posts. There's more information than you can shake a stick at I know that we all have a lot on our plate But this is something that really matters and the more people from power and privilege That work toward this the more that it's going to be seen as something that's valid and important So read an essay take a course read a book Take a training hire an expert and if you need someone to educate you be willing to pay them for their expertise This is not a comfortable space for most people the only people I've ever known who this is a truly comfortable space for our people who love disruption and I don't thrive on disruption. I should my last name is chaos But I don't I just want this to be The same level of comfort. I want everyone to be able to feel right so Before we move on it automatic we have employees in last I checked 93 countries around the world Dealing with localized diversity, which is what we usually talk about here in the United States is difficult enough But when we're talking about our community the WordPress community automatic Dealing with globalized diversity is exponentially more difficult because it's hard to exactly put your finger on what that looks like I know that on any given day at work or in my personal life or both I'm going to make a mistake, but I made a promise to myself and to others That when I mess up I'm gonna own it I'm gonna find a way to do better with every iteration that I work toward and I told you just recently not to just ask yourself or to ask someone go pay somebody But I have the opportunity here to answer some questions and to have a conversation with all of you Which is the part I was truly looking forward to so if you have questions I would absolutely love to hear them Tiffany here can bring a mic to you And if there are any questions from the live stream, I would love to include all of you as well If there's something that you don't feel comfortable asking or talking about I Understand we're lucky enough if we're lucky enough for this conversation to go long and there's not enough time Please feel free to reach out to me Twitter Instagram By email address at work, so Kami chaos pretty much everywhere and Let's open up a conversation You mentioned intersectionality. Can you define or explain what that means me that is I? Should have prepared for this one Good I just told her she could ask come on No, oh, yeah, I can Intersectionality are all the different disparate components of a person or a thing that make up the whole of them So when I talk about intersectionality with myself as an example, I'm a woman. I Did not go to college. I am a mother. I am a single mother. I Have a gluten allergy. I Have thyroid disease. I have high blood so I'm disabled as well as Being a woman, but I'm also white and I'm born in the United States and raised in California And I apparently have what they call newscasters speak Which is a whole level of privilege I never knew about till I was in speech therapy And so when we look at all those pieces, I consider myself to be a highly privileged person in some ways but in other ways I'm really really looked down upon and fall behind and marginalized and So each person needs to kind of look at themselves and pull together what it is that brings them together Whether it's their sexual orientation their race their gender their cast their education The people that they choose to associate with it all comes together to make the package that is you as a unique individual Does that? Yeah, okay. Thank you, and I I apologize. I do I need to repeat the question or we'd have her on the recording. I Believe the the microphone is being picked up for the live stream. Okay, fantastic. Oh And I should have Ali I should have had you say your name, but if you can tell us who you are I would love to to know who I'm talking to hi. I am Cassandra. Hi, and I Want to ask you what? Strategies you have used as a woman to ask for a raise. Oh I can only I Can only partially answer this question Every business is different the way that employment works is going to be unique to every company my best advice is When you go in for a new job Push the limit ask for as much We'll find out what your white male colleagues might be making and asked for more than they're being paid because It's kind of a fact in our current hiring system that most companies are more willing to spend more money on Retain hiring new employees and they aren't retaining them So I would say give yourself frequent self feedback Make sure that you log all of the good work you're doing have like a brag sheet for yourself And when you go to ask for a raise because you know you deserve it Bring all of that to the person and if they're like no, that's not possible The question I like to ask is how do we make it possible? I'm doing the work So that's not Something that I feel super self-confident with but that is what I have tried to do for myself Along the same lines of my name is Federico Along the same lines of that question What are some things we can do to I feel like the The salary situation Its birth is in the Cloud of not knowing when somebody else makes I Regardless of you know, yeah anything else So this what I'm about to share are I don't often say this these are my thoughts and feelings Not the thoughts and feelings of my employer I Believe that in order to have equity equality in Salary we need to have salary transparency. We need to know what everyone is making I Have a bunch of co-workers in the room right now and I could not tell you what any of them make none of them know what I make Okay, maybe I might be able to tell you what a couple of them make but not most of them And it's just something that is not transparent in in the company that I work for and I am starting to see more of it I like seeing job listings specifically that have their salary ranges on there I think that every company should have something at least accessible to the internal employees Even if it's not listed by name, but listed by title what everyone is making it It's there because it's the only way that we're ever going to be able to hold our Leadership accountable for the way that we are being not just paid but being given other compensation as well So yeah, I think the only solution is transparency and So fight for that people come on. Let's have some salary transparency Hi, I'm Ebony. Hi Ebony Can you tell us about an experience where you where you Had someone say something super racist or sexist to you and a privileged person. It was like no, that's not gonna happen I'm fortunate. So my partner is also in technology And he is a fierce. I have to I have to admit I love a straight white man I love a straight white man with a huge college education. He's incredibly intelligent He comes from a privileged background his mother was a psychologist But he does not take crap. He doesn't know he allows no crap for anyone that is in his spirit he He incubates and accelerates startups And he is like a mother duck protective of all of these startups and founders that he works with and So I have seen him Prevent that conversation from going awry many many times But sometimes it's just as simple as a woman. How many of us have been told? Oh, you're so pretty when you smile Should you smile more? That is the one that I have seen shot down both by him and by a lot of other men that are in my sphere Please don't ask her to do that. That's inappropriate That's the one that comes to mind most readily The thing is is that there's that simple intervention, right? The person has to have enough Privilege to feel safe intervening in a situation And that's something that if it's okay, I'm gonna rip on for a second If you're a person of privilege or you're a person who is not scared and you see something happen You can say something you can say something right then and there or you can distract If you ever see a woman who is being hit upon or a BIPOC individual who is being harassed You can walk up to them and say hey, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you doing? Oh my gosh? Let's catch up. You don't have to know them as a woman if someone walks up to me when I'm being harassed and does that to me I'm like, oh girlfriend. Hello. I haven't seen you in ever and I'm gonna walk away with them I'm not teaching you how to kidnap people. Please don't do that if you're a bad person But we need to intervene more everyone needs to intervene more if you do not feel safe intervening I Feel like we have an obligation to do something if it's a dangerous situation Record it Ask someone for help. I'm not really I mean there are times at which you must follow police but sometimes that's also going to cause the situation to be inflamed and Escalate and we don't want that and you can also call people in if it's someone that you know That's doing the dad the bad thing you pull them aside and you say I didn't want to embarrass you. I know that's uncomfortable But this is a problem and this is why it's a problem this particular method I use particularly when I see An inappropriate language if I see someone say I was talking to a realtor and they have a house listed with a master bathroom and a master bedroom And I was like, oh, can we call it the primary please? I don't like that's not comfortable It's not appropriate and they were like, why isn't that appropriate? And I was like well slave culture for one I mean can can you just change your listings? It's not appropriate And that's a safe space to do that it but I I Personally prefer not to be on the internet. You can't do that. It's horrible. It is horrible. You can't do that I'm gonna tell you that privately And then from my own experience We have sabbaticals at automatic and I was preparing for my sabbatical And I was working on the community team at the time and I was handing off a lot of other work To my teammates so that I could enjoy my three months off and a person that I was working with was Upset that I was going to be leaving. He thought it was inappropriate that I was taking maternity leave at this time and Was upset and wanted to know exactly who he could be working with because I didn't have a name for him I was like just email this address. It's fine and I Wasn't pregnant. I wasn't going on parental leave. I was I had earned a sabbatical for working five years at a company It was part of my package and I Angry keyboard I wrote the most vicious angry response. How dare you this is completely inappropriate You don't know me well enough to make assumptions. You should never make assumptions At it down at it down at it down walk away No, I went and had lunch. I think I took the afternoon off and came back in the evening I was not okay. And if someone had sent that to any other woman, I know I wouldn't have been okay My teammates had to jump in. I was like I need someone to edit this, please I am obviously having a lot of feelings. I don't want to be cruel to this person I want to take it as an opportunity to teach him but so in that case I had a lovely support system that gathered and Helped edit my piece until the only really angry thing was It is inappropriate to make assumptions about the reason that a woman or anyone else in this community is taking leave of absence So, I mean the best way to do it is with words and bravery and Education Anyway, I've won up here and we've got one right here. We've got one right. We've got people. Thank you for talking with me I've missed humans someone back here's with weight. It's fantastic. Thank you, Tiffany Oh Okay Hi, my name is Adrienne So just a quick background on the question before I ask it My company probably like a lot of other people's companies got really fired up about DEI right after the George Floyd murder And we started a committee we brought in consultants and then over the years from lack of I'd say Commitment from leadership not entirely their fault lots of business changes those sort of things that took their focus away the There just wasn't a lot that they just grew like less and less Enthusiasm around it and so the people on the committee sort of fizzled out and went to do other things and how would you recommend Working to try to build that culture from because it feels like it needs to come from the top down in terms of The support so how would you? Recommend trying to build that from the top down when you're not in the top You said the magic words we need to build DEI from the top down and in most places We are building it from the bottom up Especially when we have leadership that is a group a homogenous group of people they are going to look for Qualities in other leaders that match their own and so then we wind up with an even more homogenous group of leaders and Even if this is important to them On a theoretical basis, it's not something that's touching their everyday lives and so You need a strong advocate That is willing to talk to leadership and talk to leadership and talk to leadership and talk to leadership Until they get agreement or you need to have a really strong relationship with your HR Who will help you build ERG so that you can start to push the work to move forward? I don't think that that's the ideal solution because once again that's asking marginalized people to do the work But it is a path forward I think it's just something as much awareness as you can raise of the importance of DEI with Leadership is what you do I Wish everyone treated DEI the same way they treated revenue when we're making decisions We should be looking at what's best for the company as a whole Individual unit or the community as a whole unit and what's best for the community is for us to Diversify and to have more people from more background so that we have more voices and with WordPress specifically Truly build a more inclusive and better product So again a lot of the answers these questions are you have to you have to do the work and you have to recruit other people To do the work with you and you have to convince leadership. I feel like I'm like starting a union right now You have to convince leadership that that's the way to do it because No one else is going to you have to assume that you have to do this by yourself and I hate that I just said that Hi there. Hi. I'm Bri So the question I wanted to ask is as someone who is a part of marginalized groups and who also Works towards DEI initiatives There are often times when the the world seems to fight back at you. Oh, yeah, and That crushing weight of defeat Often gets to be a lot. So how do you? How do you deal with that? What are what are your coping mechanisms for? Feeling as if the world a lot of the world is fighting against you When we talked about intersectionality, I did not mention the part that I have crippling anxiety I've had anxiety my entire life since I was a very small child. I had my first panic attack when I was three years old and So self-care That's pretty important to me. I am well taken care of I have an incredibly supportive Community it takes a village to care for a cammy some of my villages right here being awesome And so I really prioritize self-care, but not self-care like go shopping get your nails done. Maybe that's it. I Like to get my nails done But you need to make time for yourself. We make time for everything else Intersectionality again as a mother my first priority is always my daughter Right. I love her to pieces She's always my main first priority, but in order for her to be my priority I have to focus on other things in order for work to be my priority I have to be a whole person. I can't be broken And so take time off work if you are lucky enough that you are a person who gets PTO Don't let it go to waste Set boundaries. I know that there's a lot of talk right now about silent quitting and that is complete crap We are paid to do the job that we are paid to do We're not paid to go the extra mile. They want us to go the extra mile Let's get some salary transparency and pay us more if we want to we might just want to just do the work We're doing and be respected and appreciated for it So set boundaries make sure that you are setting just as much time to take care of yourself As you are to taking care of anyone else Make sure that you are getting the mental health and emotional support that you need There's a huge shortest of therapists right now, but if you are engaged in DEI work I beg of you Please have a mental health professional to work with because you are going to be battered and this is that's just the fact of The battery it sucks and it's horrible But you're going to need emotional support So make sure you have a village and if you can reach out to like-minded people and make sure that you support them just as much as they support you because I find with some people being supportive of them is as Healing and beautiful for me as me being supported by someone else and Play with cats Oh She's been hand up for a little while and then you're next sir Hi, this is a question for you or anyone else who may have a good answer in the audience I'm a biracial lesbian who has so many times have people white people stray people dudes DM me on Twitter wanting me to help them through their journey of being a not racist sexist homophobic person and I Don't want to help them. You know, like I don't want to spend my free time But what can I say in that moment that isn't angry or you know, I want to say like, okay Five million dollars an hour. I'll help you But like I want to do something that is impactful in that moment. Here is somebody for you know, it may be Their intentions are Good Right, they want to be a better person. They may be doing it in an ignorant way They may be asking me for my time. I don't you know, we don't want to get what can I reply in that moment That is helpful, but not like expending of my like energy and time I would encourage you to write up like a how many of us use the auto complete things Like and I think we only have a few minutes left, right? A lot of us use the auto complete things or have copy and paste I would write up a Two-sentence statement that you can just copy and paste in to respond that Expresses that you are being asked to do emotional labor that is not appropriate But then unfortunately encourage them towards a resource that you find like just pick one resource and Send that that way I have seen people put that resource in their Twitter profiles and in their blog profiles and just say if you're going to ask me About this go here If you have a friend who does paid DEI consulting Pimp them out That was an inappropriate phrase. I should not have used let me apologize Thank you share their information and promote them within the community Apologies people see I will do better next time And I believe do we have time for one more question? Okay. We've got another question over here Did that help? Yeah Send them to Ali everybody. Do you have this problem? Send them to Ali, but they have to pay her Okay Hi, my name is David. Thank you for this amazing talk Thank you, David. I have a question look for your feedback or thoughts are there Suggestions that you have for ways to meaning meaningfully measure or quantify the level of DEI be in an organization so that someone somewhere doesn't check a box and say yeah, we did that Yes, yes, there is this there are First of all, we have to have the checkboxes, right? If we don't have the checkboxes We don't know if we're making Improvement the problem is is most of the time we check the box and we're like cool. I'm done with that now I did it. Hey, did you see that we got up to 25% women and 10% BIPOC individuals in our entire company. This is fantastic. That's not fantastic. That still sucks That's like the minimum right that you're supposed to reach and so I the best suggestion I can have is just like I was talking about if you're going to make a big decision for your company You're going to run it past your CFO, right? You're going to run it past your chief Marketing officer, you're going to run it past your chief technology officer Run it past your DEI specialist and say hey, what do we need to be doing here? but one of the things that makes this really challenging especially on an international scale is in order to make That progress and to be able to quantify it. We have to have demographic information and There are questions you can ask in some places and can't ask in other places It's different in every country. Sometimes it's different from state to state. So I would partner with a great Tool or company that specializes in that there are a few there's one that I'm starting to work with that I'm not going to share the name of because I'm not fully. I think they're going to be amazing, but I'm not sure yet But I would also encourage you to make sure you asking the right questions for the right reasons don't just gather a bunch of demographic information and then like squirrel it away because Then it why are you asking that? Why do you want to know my gender? Why do you want to know my pronouns if you want to know someone's pronouns because you want to make sure that they're being used? Give them the opportunity to share it. Don't make it mandatory If you want to know someone's marital status, why do you want to know their marital status? Is it's because you're going to be doing more are you giving insurance to everyone's partner and to everyone's children? Do you want to know how many women you have because you genuinely want to raise the number of women in your company and leadership? And then the other part I would say that's always true. We were talking Top-down we have to do it from the top-down as much as possible promote people from marginalized groups They're every bit as qualified Well, not every person is every bit as qualified But what I'm saying is just being a white man in our society seems to make people feel like they're more qualified And that's not the case. So that's the biggest one Make sure that you have diversity and leadership because when you have diversity and leadership Naturally, the rest of the company will start to fill in the blanks. I Think we're good because everyone can go to lunch and if I'll be up here for a few minutes if anyone wants to ask me anything, but thank you all so much for listening This is so important and I really appreciate you all