 Hi my name is Mariah Riggs and today I'm interviewing Tom Perry. Thank you so much for joining me here on the waterfront. Tom is the cheese sales manager at Shelburne Farms. So today we're going to be talking to Tom about cheese and Shelburne Farms and all those wonderful things that as Vermonters we very much love. So Tom let's find out a little bit more about you. Where did you grow up? So I grew up in Connecticut in a town called Coldchester. I like to say it's halfway between Hartford and the casinos for those not hyper familiar with Connecticut and it was basically a bedroom community for two different main industries in Connecticut one being the insurance industry in Hartford and the other being the electric boat down in Groton which was a defense contractor. So yeah. Did you ever come to Vermon as a child? Not as a child so much but I did live here briefly in the late 90s when I was in my early 20s. And you obviously liked it here? I did. I liked it very much but there was a point when what I was trying to pursue required me to leave and go back down to Connecticut. Which kind of leads me to my next question. You know I always wonder how does I mean besides absolutely adoring cheese which I think every Vermonner could probably attest to. How do you get into cheese? I found the best way to get into cheese is to get into cheese by accident. The majority of people I think that were getting into cheese especially in the early 2000s when I started my path in the cheese industry was a lot of people with humanities degrees that were looking for work during the summer and they thought that it would just be a temporary thing but they found all these connections to what they were studying or what they really enjoyed whether it be history or agriculture or a lot of religion majors in cheese making and the cheese world as well. So if you want to get into cheese making a theology degree might be a great idea. Exactly. But honestly it's we have these things that we call aha moments where you know you have this encounter with a piece of cheese and it just changes it upends your perspective of what you think cheese is and for me that cheese was actually a Vermont cheese. It was Winamere made by Jasper Hill and still made by Jasper Hill as their seasonal washed rind raw cow's milk cheese that's what we call a spoonable cheese where you slice the top off and you're able to just spoon it out. It's particularly delicious if you have not tried the Winamere cheese. I recommend it. And the season is just ending now so be sure to look out for next holiday season. Only during the holidays. Well into early spring. So when did you first you know because I know you were on the east coast did you where did you first encounter your first cheese shop? I was in Boston and I worked at Formaggio kitchen which is just on the outskirts of Harvard Square. It was and is one of the probably more renowned cheese shops in the world and I was lucky enough to stumble in there and get a job as I was just completing culinary school and they hired me as their catering manager and I didn't really have a lot of knowledge about cheese but just being surrounded by literally hundreds of different varieties of cheese gave me the experience that would allow me to you know delve deeper into it. And did you did you instinctively all of a sudden just have a love of cheese? No. I had a lot more questions than love and it's not and maybe I had questions because I loved it or because I liked it so much and it was like you know they're all made out of the same things how come there's 250 different kinds of cheeses here and how come this one is like similar to this one but it's made in a completely different part of the world. So it really sparked a curiosity that I vowed. And I've heard from people in the cheese industry that once you kind of go down the primrose path into cheese it just leads you and it just keeps going. Yeah it's more of a rabbit hole than a primrose path but you know you're definitely committed to some folks are definitely committed to a deeper understanding and delving into that. So after you were in Boston you did you did transition before Shelburne Farms and increase your knowledge of cheese over the years. That is correct. As I said I was very fortunate to be getting into the cheese industry at the beginning of what we would consider the American cheese Renaissance which began in the mid to late aughts as we call them. And you know cheese makers like Jasper Hill and you know considered Bardwell or Vermont Creamery were really beginning to take a more prominent role in the American cheese scene. And I was working at a place in Providence called Farmstead where their focus was on American made cheeses. And at the time you know there were no large-scale distributors for this. It was still kind of a shaky proposition economically speaking and they in order to place orders for these places you had to call them directly. And that was a wonderful way to build relationships with the so there really was like a community. You know there wasn't like a distribution network it really was stored to farmer. Right. I mean I don't want to say it was underground but it was almost like you know you had to seek it out. That's so cool though. That kind of makes it cool. You know you got to love that. That's pretty cool. So and then and then you still hadn't quite gotten to Vermont yet. Correct. From from Providence you went to Cato Corner Farm which is in my hometown of Colchester Connecticut. They are in their own right an exceptional Farmstead cheese producer. And that was one of the bigger aha moments was I was working at Formaggio kitchen and I saw this wedge of cheese and it said Colchester Connecticut I was like I had no idea that this cheese was being made in my hometown literally about two miles from where I grew up. By a family I knew growing up. So that was very relevant for me as well. That is interesting. And and I went there because I wanted to learn or have a better understanding of how to make cheese because I was like you know I had been eating a lot of domestic cheese and I was like I feel like I could do a pretty good job at this if I really wanted to. But what it did is it really made me realize that I'm much better at selling cheese than making cheese. Yes but you appreciate it more because you're part of the process right. And like you know it I know all the labor and love and sweat and tears that go into like each piece of cheese that's made you know and like it's a very visceral feeling when I see cheese that is wasted. It gives you more of a commitment to sell it. Exactly. Everybody does better selling what they love. And get it into the hands of people that want it or need it. So for viewers who don't know what the cheese industry is like I know we've had a couple conversations already about that. But what would you say to people watching this. What is the cheese industry like now after what you were discussing is the renaissance in American cheese. What what is it like now in America. Well I guess it all depends on what side of the industry you're in. You know I definitely you know at Shelburne Farms in particular I mean we straddle the line of artisan and commodity. You know we're we're a block cheddar maker for the most part so we're producing it 40 pound blocks and you know we're cutting it into a variety of sizes for retail sale. And you know but we're one of the few that will find their way into a small specialty shops cheese counter where they're cutting it by hand off the block as you would. And there are other sides where you know they're making a cheese that has artisan qualities but it's made on an industrial scale making literally like thousands or tens of thousands of pounds of cheese a day and getting it out for for mass production and mass consumption. So I mean there's all these strata and I feel like we're we find a way to be in the middle. And we also you know just add our own unique spin being Shelburne Farms. And it's such a high quality product. Right. As all the cheese eaters in Vermont who pretty much live on cheddar cheese know Shelburne Farms is the most electable. Well thank you. I mean we have I might be biased but that's a real. We have a lot of wonderful you know cheese making peers that make cheddar throughout the state. Of course. You know Cabot and Grafton among them and you know we definitely appreciate what what they do and what they do in support of the various farming communities and their local communities throughout the state. So I guess also kind of coming back to this and I kind of know the question of this but I maybe some of our viewers aren't aware of this. What is Vermont's reputation in sort of the cheese community. Very high particularly nationally. There's it's similar to the way that our you know beer industry is perceived here. You know it's it's you know a small handmade artisan industry. You know that that's definitely the impression and for the most part it's it's a very real perception and and way to describe what were many are trying to achieve with their their their their farms and their dairy animals or the milk that's being produced here in state. And you know internationally we're starting to get more accolades. There's been a lot of encouragement by the Department USDA to enter contests internationally and a number of our peers here in the state have done very well. Which is big because I mean cheese traditionally is a European especially artisan cheese comes from Europe or at least that's the impression that well that is the impression and and but again when you were talking about the Renaissance you can see how in America we've started to embrace it here. Absolutely and move away from I hate to say this but like orange cheese and Velveeta products. Right. Definitely more real food and but I think that's been you know a conscious effort by many people over the past decade or more and I feel like that the the the roots of that can be found here in Vermont. Yeah and at a place like Shelburne Farms. Absolutely. Completely. So this kind of we almost answered it but what brought you to Vermont. Shelburne Farms. So as we kind of touched on I was in retail for probably about 10 years and I was looking to take my next steps in the career you know I hadn't embraced the cheese maker life but I really like selling it and Shelburne Farms in 2017 had an opening for their cheese sales manager position and I applied for it and here we are. All right. That's great. So you've been you've been at Shelburne Farms for how long now. Five years now. Wow so significant. Yeah. All right. Well thank you and so I'm sure most of our viewers probably know this but for some of you who aren't aware how would you describe what is Shelburne Farms to the person who's never heard of Shelburne Farms. How would you describe it. Shelburne Farms I feel is a many faceted organization and has different meanings for different people. For me obviously the cheese is at the front and center of my association with the farm you know Shelburne Farms was literally the first cheese maker that I visited back in 2009 and you know they gave me a wonderful hands-on experience literally it was when we were still allowing people to go into the make room and flip the curds of cheddar and stack them on top of each other. We do not allow that anymore. I'll just get that out of the way now. So no private tours if anybody's wondering. And but you know Shelburne Farms is also you know a major sustainability education campus. We have people that come from all over the world literally to engage with our education team that would you know so that they can bring the tenants of sustainable you know community building back to their own communities. And so I mean also another thing that I always come to mind to me when I think of Shelburne Farms is a store chip and the fact that they're about land use and about cultivating the land in place. And so you know again people who don't know Shelburne Farms what is it like? Because it is a very unique place. You know I think the the first thing that comes to mind is it's magical you know because if you've never been to the farm you know you go up this this winding dirt road and all of a sudden this this large building just dominates your line of sight. And you know that's the barn and that's where I work. But it looks like you know something out of Harry Potter. A lot of my friends call it the Hogwarts of Cheese. I love that. And like that's just the beginning it continues and ambles on for another you know 1400 acres and you know it's I think it's gotten to the point where it's a very special place for a lot of Vermonters and you know we want to be able to share that special place in perpetuity. And it spearheaded a lot of sort of the farm to table sustainable farming movement that came out of the 80s and 90s in Vermont. Yep and we're continuing to do that you know part of you know some of the legislation that got passed late last year or in 2021 you know about bringing you know farm to school education that was introduced by Sandra Leahy. You know that is definitely a core program that we embark on at Shelburne Farms. And you know the the commitment that we have to working with educators not only our own education team but educators throughout the state and how they can interest their students in farming and agriculture especially here in state. Because that's a huge part of Shelburne Farms is their community outreach and their and their engagement with education and educating kids of Vermont. I know my kids went to many field trips there and got to like you know watch the chickens there's a whole kid farm component the education barn where they can go play and learn about the farm. If you have a child under the age of seven it's probably the greatest place in Vermont you can take your child and I don't say that lightly. It's quite amazing. We spent many a day there with the small ones. So how did Shelburne Farms because I know they you know they were opening the farm you know and how do they start making cheese? So this year 2022 is celebrating the 50th anniversary of the nonprofit. So the educational nonprofit that is part of the core of our mission. But you know the way that we were funding that nonprofit back in the 70s was through you know the utilization of the land and the cows the Brown Swiss cows that were already on the property utilizing the sugar bush to make maple syrup. But in regards to how we were you know kind of utilizing the milk as we were selling raw milk back in the late 70s and much like today you know fluid milk as you know an economic driver isn't the the the most profitable industry. No the rate of return on just a milk product is negligible. Exactly. So you're dealing with a very perishable item that can go sour literally in a matter of weeks. So what we decided to do is we decided to contact some of our peers like Grafton and Cabot in particular Crowley as well and we also reached out to some of our friends in England to learn how to make cheddar a value-added product. And what that does is it extends the life of a very you know a short shelf life product into one with greater potential. Yes it's a preservative it's been used for centuries to preserve dairy products. Exactly. So also another interesting and fascinating thing is why brown swiss cows? I'm not 100% sure why brown swiss cows initially but I can tell you now the reason that we've committed and stayed committed to the brown swiss cows is you know they're what we would consider a double threat cow. A double threat cow. Double threat cow. Only for in the sense oh there are triple threats too. The double threat means you know back in the day prior to mechanized you know agricultural implements it was they were great for drafting purposes and plow and they're also exceptional for dairy and their their swiss roots and the alps of Switzerland make them uniquely suited to the Vermont climate between our cold weathers some of our more rocky terrain and they're a wonderfully gentle and well they're adorable. Yeah they're very well behaved and like curious cows that they're not too skittish and they're not too much of a bully. Now does it as if it does because somebody I thought at one point told me had something to do with their fat content? Well so yes so that definitely does play a role I believe that when they did initially bring the brown Swiss on to the farm back in the 50s it was because of their elevated levels of butter fat and you're able to get a higher price per hundred weight because of the different elevated components in the milk. Wow that's so interesting. So yeah well I've always wondered about the brown swisses at children farms so thank you. And now you know. Now I know. So while we're talking about it let's find out what is the process at Shelburne Farms for making cheese? For making cheese so at Shelburne Farms all we're making is cheddar as I like to say we make cheddar cheddar and cheddar. Which you can never have enough of. Which you can never have enough of and for us that entails the milking team starting very early in the morning typically around four four thirty and they'll do the morning's milking and that milk will how much milk does a cow produce daily? So depends on the time of year depends on where they are in their lactation cycle. Obviously after they've just given birth they're going to be producing more but we're I won't get into the whole details but about 50 pounds of milk a day. Wow. So the one cow really could feed a family for. Wow 50 pounds of milk. That's significant. Okay. So so so what the the dairy team is going to do the milking early in the morning. This is going to that milk is going to be combined with the milk from the previous evening and a member of our cheese making team is going to go down to the dairy get that milk bring it up in a haul truck and there's about you know depending again depending on the time of year anywhere from about four thousand to six thousand pounds of milk in that haul truck and we're going to stake it through a hole in the wall at the farm and we're going to pump it into our our cheese making vat. There's a pump that the hose gets connected to and then it goes into the vat. From there they're going to start warming up the milk gradually when the milk reaches an acceptable temperature they're going to add in cultures which are a critical part of the cheese making process because what it will do is it will begin to acidify the milk and the reason we're acidifying the milk is because we're going to be adding an enzyme known as rennet for us we're using traditional animal rennet so that means it's derived from the fourth stomach of a cow and that will help coagulate the milk and basically it will turn the milk from its pure liquid state into kind of this like milk jello or milk pudding kind of state which which is really fascinating the cheese to see because you know it was one thing one minute and it's almost like alchemy. Wow and it happens quickly. It happens relatively quickly within the space of about half an hour 45 minutes. Wow that's amazing. Yeah and that's you know five thousand pounds of milk that have just magically transformed well not magically science. Yes. Thank you science. And so once it's reached it's you know kind of ideal firmness they'll run our cheese wires up and down the length of the vat and they'll cut it into small pieces of curd and then they'll put some paddle attachments in and they'll stir this curd and whey mixture and the the curd will you bounce it all around the vat and the whole time it's continuing to acidify. Once it reaches the target level of acidification we'll drain the whey out. We'll form these banks of curd that we call the pack and we'll then cut the curd into you know bread size loaves of dairy matter and we'll start stacking them on top of each other and that's the cheddar cheddaring process. That's it. Whoa oh wait there's more there's more so eventually they're gonna start off like basically like you know loaves of bread size things of curd but as gravity and moisture is kind of expelled from the weight of the other loaves of curd it goes from looking like a loaf of bread to like like a long like whole slab of like pork belly or bacon if you've ever seen that. Wow. So it goes from being like this big to like this long. So quadulates. Yeah and this this like we'll stretch out the curd without like stressing it out so you get some really great textures and stuff and then we're going to throw it into it into a mill a milling machine and that will cut it into these finger-sized curds that will then add salt into and we'll do that in three doses because if we did it all at once all the salt would get washed away with a way that it's being like expelled because like the salt is like contracting. So it has to be consistently salted on some level. Yep yep and then we'll put it into these you know 40 pound metal forms we'll press it overnight and the next morning we'll bag it up and age it anywhere from six months to three years. And they do that daily. Do that daily. Wow so I wonder you produce so much cheese. Yeah and it's a lot of that's that every day. Every day I mean that there are sometimes during the holiday period where we take breaks so that we can focus on our mail order business that a lot of folks locally support so that's wonderful. Well we you know we need to sell the cheese too right it's very important. We do. Speaking of which where can Shelburne Farms cheese be found. It can be found lots of places first and foremost you can find it at our welcome center store which is at the entrance to the farm right off Harbor and Bay Road in Shelburne. We're available at many locations here in the Burlington area city market co-op wine and cheese traders healthy living market 32 over on Shelburne Road just to name a few dead list I don't want to leave anybody else but but we've got a pretty good distribution network you know definitely in Montpelier Middlebury Brattleboro White River Junction and then it goes beyond there you know throughout New England and Boston New York all the way out to San Francisco. Oh that's wonderful. Now what types of cheese do we end up producing because I know there are different types of cheese at Shelburne Farms. So what are your different types of cheese? So it's technically only one cheese we're only making cheddar. I know but the aging. Right no okay you're right he's very right and we technically make only one style. I am not the cheese longer. I know that's literally my job. We only make one type of cheese that's what I said we make cheddar cheddar and cheddar but depending on how the cheese make wind it can age anywhere from six months to three years so we've got a six month variety a one year variety a two year variety which is probably what most people are familiar with the three year which is you know the unicorn and then we've got a couple of other varieties the the Smokes and the Clothbound where we work with partner cheese making organizations Grafton does the smoking for us and Jasper Hill does the Clothbound aging for us and then we have Tractor which is our strongest cheese and it helps keep the engines running. Yes for most for monitors actually yeah it's a real thing so those are all the different and and and so for example if somebody was looking to get like a sample and send it to somebody across the country they can go to ShelburneFarms.com ShelburneFarms.org. Thank you. If you want to buy some cheese you want to look for gift boxes you want to find out more information make sure you take a look at ShelburneFarms.org you'll find out all the information there and you can actually shop there correct and there's a little tab that says shop and it'll direct you either to the welcome center for pickup or our online store that can ship it nationwide. It's also a great thing too if you have friends and family who have come up here and visited you gone to ShelburneFarms try the cheese and wonder how they can get it they can just go online and they ship worldwide is that correct? Nationwide. Nationwide okay okay great and I use them for packages to family and friends every holiday season so which is great. So what's going on at the farm this season? So this year we're reopening with a couple of caveats you know that the inn is reopened after a two-year hiatus we're starting to have more farm events you know particularly outdoor based activities so nature walks we're having a couple of cheese based activities our head cheesemaker Helen is going to be doing a artisan cheese and tasting at the end of the month here in May so. So if you want to do an artisan cheese tasting please go visit Helen yep you can probably find the information at ShelburneFarms.org on our calendar yep and there'll be a way for you to sign up as well. That's great now are you doing any of the farm to table food things this summer or is that not happening? So we're going to continue to sell the produce from our market garden to the welcome center as I said the inn has reopened but currently staffing is only allowing us for us to feed the the folks that are staying at the inn but we are definitely utilizing what we're growing and what we're producing on the farm for that farm to table activity and there's also o-bread breakerees that's still there too that is that is there as well so also I don't know if some of you don't know this but at ShelburneFarms they also have a delightfully insanely good bakery called o-bread right next to the cheese making operation and bread and cheese goes well together. So before we step out of this conversation Tom what might we not know about you that you would like to share? So in addition to my duties at the farm you know I'm a pretty active participant in a lot of aspects of the industry but locally I also teach an online artisan cheese sensory evaluation course through UVM and we just wrapped up our April session and we're going to be having another session that begins in September so if there's anybody that would like to learn more about how to appreciate the cheeses you encounter whether it be ShelburneFarms or whatever you're finding on the counter or on the store shelves we'd be happy to give you guidance so that you can better prepare your palate. So somebody could find out about that and learn more about how to become more of a cheese monger and appreciate cheese. Become a better cheese enthusiast. Oh good well we need more the the one thing we really need is more cheese enthusiast because everybody in born is a cheese enthusiast from the day they're born. That's a real thing and Tom I have to thank you for producing such amazing and wonderful cheese and sharing it with all of us. Thank you to the ShelburneFarms cheese team and thank you to Tom for all for selling us all that lovely cheese. Again if you want more information about all the wonderful work about ShelburneFarms the organization, the different programs they have and events that they have going on over the summer please make sure to go to ShelburneFarms.org where you will find all that pertinent information and that pretty much sums it up Tom. Yeah well thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me this was lovely. Have a lovely time this summer you're in my favorite place all summer I'm kind of jealous. Thank you. And thank you all so much for tuning in this month and we'll see you back. Take care.