 Good evening and welcome to the first Tisgis hour since our election sesh on first day Well, obviously we spent about six hours absorbing some very disappointing results. We've had a couple of days now to think about what's just happened To think about explanations for what's just happened and what might come next to talk about that now I am joined by Huda Elmi. Hello. He's a member of the Labour Party NEC and a member of the regional board in the West Midlands One part of the country where we had fairly disappointing results in general I'm also joined by Aaron Bostani co-founder of Navarra Media How are you doing? As well as can be expected Turning off notifications on your phone my husband No, I ruined it. I was gonna do that very smoothly just because you were actually very I ruined that my apologies Michael I've undermined the ever ever professional imperiously professional Michael walk Acco would we'll discuss the discussion with some you know some a breakdown of what happened last Thursday So labor lost 59 seats They went down to 200 and free seats the lowest since 1935 The vote share went down from 43 point six percent in 2017 to 32 point one percent last week and Oh, no shit. Sorry. That's wrong. The vote share was 43 point six percent for the conservatives and 32 point one percent for the Labour Party down on the part of the Labour Party from 40 percent The conservatives only added 1.2 percent Predominantly in leave voting seats is where we lost ground Some seats that went Tory Robber Valley in South Yorkshire has been labour since 1918 Newcastle under lime has been labour since 1919 But the Labour candidate only one by 30 votes in 2017 So we can see that it is a decline that's been going on a while in Lee That was labor since 1922 now has a 10,000 Tory majority So there's some seats that went from Labour to being safe safe Tory seats in one evening We also lost Don Valley, Bishop's Auckland, Shedsfield, Bassett Law and Great Grimsby They've all been labour held since World War two some some sort of spectacular Disappointments of the night was losing Laura Pidcock seat in Northwest Durham And yeah, I mean comparing the vote share to 2010 and 2015 It's you know, it doesn't look out of the ordinary in 2010 They've got 29 percent in 2015 the toys 30.4 percent the toys don't have a majority of 10,000 and Lee You sure it's the right seat? I've well, let's look it up. Well, 2000. Oh, yeah, that was right. Oh Well the article I read Misled me who's this which article is this? I don't know. I'll look it up when we So it's only two it's only a two thousand there are some really there are some really horrific ones like Grimsby's pretty there's quite a few maybe you think of Bassett Law Bassett Law is pretty bad. Hmm. I can find my source, but in any case What's to blame hooda? Oh God, um, God it's it's it's I Mean, it's a whole coalition of a completely loads of different things And I think that anybody saying that it was just like pinpointing on just one thing is Can I swear it's just like chatting up to shit And I think that like activist journalist of commentators MPs are the political establishment Everyone has kind of been talking a lot about what it could be But I think that the overarching thing is that this isn't and I think you touched on it in your opening I think this is the product of what has been quite steady decline and I think that we are Kind of facing the harsh realities of what has been decades of complete detachment from working-class communities And I think that This election convinced me of what I think all of us to some extent have known for a long time And that is that whilst the party membership exploded whilst excitement exploded whilst we swelled to the largest You know party in Western Europe. They didn't and hasn't translated to tangibly being able to impact and speak to working-class communities And I think that first to address what we've done wrong I think there's no sexy easy answer to it, but I think that the big thing that kind of When I think about it really saddens me in all of this is that what we saw was us going into an election with The best and most left-wing leader that our party has ever had a manifesto whilst not everything is completely perfect about it Was one of the best our party has ever had and talked about mass redistribution of wealth talked about completely Changing the balance of power in society and was completely to the interests of the same grouping and same class of people that Kind of went against us and turned against us and appealed away by very quite regressive forces in our country and I think that If I was to talk about what I think was the biggest catalyst to us becoming detached from working-class communities I would have to say that this that that is a complete decimation of the institutions Community institutions that we've seen in our country when we've got lack of community spaces when we've got complete like breakdown in education when it when it comes to Not just providing opportunities, but providing an understanding of self. I can't remember where I saw it But there was a whole kind of like really good article about how in some of the mining Towns and villages and cities for instance, you know on the curriculum There isn't anything to do with mining there isn't anything to do with the miners strike I think that that is evocative of like we can kind of draw that out and say that there has been a complete detachment of people of their Own history of struggle and a complete detachment an ability to organize when I was campaigning I I I met somebody who'd been a party member for 40 plus years And he talked about how CLPs used to be places where whole streets used to me and that isn't the case anymore We're dealing with an infrastructure in terms of a party where we have some CLPs that have completely, you know Exploded in the same way that our party membership of its load exploded I think in a lot of the seats that we've that we've lost we've seen you know a lot of them are CLPs that are quite merit bund And the only time they're active is really election time may they be local elections may they be general elections So I think that you know this is a disaster because of the vulnerable people that are going to be impacted most By this conservative government. I think if we're going to learn anything It's that the one thing that we need to do is organize in in communities a lot better And I think that needs to be the biggest strategic priority that our party has moving forward And I'm sure we'll touch on all of the campaign points and you know breaks it etc. etc But I think my my big thing is that there has been a complete break down in in community bonds And that has been the biggest success that this conservative government has had It's breaking down those community bonds and that when people say I'm working class like what does that mean? Like genuinely to a lot of people they don't have those class interests anymore And that has been you know on purpose that has been broken down people have been you know the bonds of society have been broken And I think that that's where we need to start And you're completely right about Lee. I don't know where I got that from it was only now a 2000 Tory majority And you're right about Bassett law which is now a 14,000 Tory majority And it's been labors since like the 1920s, which is just crazy now The conservatives got double the number of votes that labor did 28,000 to 14,000 crazy absolute landslide in that in that constituency Yeah, I mean I would obviously I'd compound what you said Huda But I would also say that you know I think the frame of most people recognize their working-class people and I think actually that's what the Tories did so well The Tories appeal to working-class people as working-class people a lot you look at for instance There are those four candidates that came down from T side or four or five candidates that came down from T side One of them took a picture of their posts at Twitter account And you look at a lot of the new Tory MPs Obviously a lot of them come from think tanks finance sex lawyers But actually quite a few of them are local people from their communities And there's been a significant shift in the kind of person that is a Tory MP from a career politician inside the Westminster bubble To people who don't really want to do politics as usual and it's terrifying But Labour failed to do that and the Tories did capture it so to an extent you're right But also I think people voted for change. They fought change meant the Tories They thought the insurgent anti-establishment candidate was Boris Johnson And they felt that actually looking out for their communities meant voting Tory rather than for the Labour Party and The thing about local parties being moribund Absolutely true, but Bassett Law is a great example Bassett Law formerly John Mann's seat, you know, it's one of those It's been this has been 20 years in the making losing Bassett Law 20 years in the making all of these seats have been the same Year after year basics since 2001 I've just they went to marginals by 2010 a lot of these places or Grimsby's now this marginal Grimsby was a margin in 2010 Hmm Labour the real one of the really fascinating differences is Labour got 29% in 2010 It's just got 32% and it kept many many many more seats 2010. Why Scotland, right? You basically have to take 50 seats at the equations people saying all well the lowest number of seats I'm not really telling you the whole picture because now Labour has a very different task on its hand at hands The 2010 in many ways was well, I think it was the nadir for Labour in many ways given that They weren't up against a particularly Powerful Tory party never powerful message, which couldn't even get a majority But in terms of the moribund local parties, I mean in Bassett Law a Remainer was selected as the candidate and then they were overturned by the NEC You know, so I think that there's there's a tension there You know, and I think that one of the tensions within the Corbyn project was yeah We didn't invigorate local parties across the country. I say we I need to stop saying we because it's not happening. It's over It failed to invigorate local parties across the country But at the same time it wasn't willing to make the trade-offs where local people felt empowered and Basically exercise democratic control over the party. I think a lot of that was just talk and so it's difficult to reinvigorate a political party when People at the bottom don't feel like they've got agency and power to change things I think I think I think kind of building on what you said as well I think that you sort of hit the nail on the head in terms of Seeing the Conservatives as anti-establishment and a lot of those places, you know, they're places that have had Labour councils and Labour MPs for a very long time And I think it's also interesting to say because I think you know Particularly anecdotally on the doorstep a lot of the things that that people would blame this you know Labour councils and Labour MPs on would be things that you know, particularly when it comes to cuts that couldn't be helped In a much wider scale, but that's not to be said that there wasn't things that could have been done to mitigate it And they couldn't have been things done to kind of like ensure that there is some level of kind of Transformation happening at a local level that could prove what Labour and power means So I think I think you're completely right I think that this was a long time in the making but again, you know The fact that all the chickens came to roost now When you know, we had a political agenda and a political framework that was popular, you know If it wasn't popular, we wouldn't be as big of a party as we are, right? It was popular and I think we did cross You know, our message did cross, you know, it did reach people. I just I just don't think I just think our issue is that all of those communities have been hollowed out and The basis in which we can organise was made impossible in a lot of places We're gonna look at what the polls were saying about why people voted in a moment First of all, you're watching Tiske's hour You're watching the Vara Media as you know This show is only possible because of your kind support if you were already subscribed But thank you very much. If not, please go to support on of our media dot-com and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a Month as I've ever liked this video Share it on Facebook share it on Twitter if you tweet with the hashtag Tiske's hour Then we'll pick out some of your comments and questions at the end of the show I think we're gonna have a show most nights this week tomorrow. Hopefully I've got Ash and Ian Lavery on on Wednesday Paul Mason's coming on I know he's split opinion among some of our Navarra media audience at the moment over the issue of a people's vote But that will be a very interesting conversation to have on Thursday. We are not having a show because there is a Navarra media party So if you are disappointed by this election result come and drown your sorrows with good comrades and good friends I will be at Brixton Jam And you can buy tickets at buy tickets dot at the word at forward slash Navarra media Lot of people in the comments saying Paul Mason why for fuck's sake and then there is free pool from area 52 Well, make sure you tune in tomorrow. I know Wednesday night and then you can you know You can put these questions to him, you know like what's error 52 actually like an area 51 anyway It's error 51. Yeah, that's all you come with your questions. I mean, he's very he's good at answering questions He's very I mean he's too good answering questions. He's very he's too persuasive Um, let's look at a poll done by a pinium Which has been widely shared on Twitter the main reasons voters did not vote for labor So when you look at all who did not vote labor, which to be honest is kind of a meaningless question because you know Most of them were gonna vote anyway 43% said the leadership 17% said Brexit 12% said their economic policies if you're looking at all labor defectors in total So that's people who voted labor in 2017, but not in 2019 You've got 37% saying the leadership 21% saying Brexit and 6% saying their economic policies And probably the most significant group labor defectors to the conservatives 45% say the leadership 31% say their stance on Brexit and 6% Say their economic policies. We will talk about the policies in a moment But I mean they seem to get up scot-free sample size for that survey. I don't know what the sample size is In any case the Lord Ashcroft stuff. That's Lord Ashcroft. Yeah Lord Ashcroft and a pinium pretty robust. Yeah And also, I mean it you know seems to match with most people's experience on the doorstep, right? Corbyn was a problem You know, you shouldn't I mean data shouldn't be used. Oh, it agrees with my personal experience meant to use data as well Yeah, but I mean that they that's deductive reasoning. Yeah, that's why we have that I mean you can go through the data tables if you want Aaron and no, I believe the data tables I'm just saying that like that they are in and of themselves a Valuable rather than saying all that that sort of is congruent in my experience on the doorstep because I mean everybody has different experiences on the doorstep, obviously How should People respond to that information the fact that 45% of people who defected the conservatives said the problem was the leadership What do you what do you make of that? I don't think the problem was people defecting to the conservatives turn out was about one and a half percent lower than it Was last time that's the first thing So if you have labor had to not just not have turned out draw But had to have turned out go up by two or three percent on last time So there's three or four percent of the electoral which didn't vote which labor needed to get out. That's one thing Then you have in about I think 11 of the 12 closest Tory held seats today The green votes bigger than the green vote not the Lib Dem vote the green vote when you think labor was running on a position of a green You deal decarbonizing by 2030 Crazy, so there's lots of I think there's lots of things going on there I think also we have to understand that the Corbyn, I think Corbyn was one of the major issues, but I don't think it's not there's a permeable relationship between Corbyn and Brexit Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's difficult to know sometimes where one begins and one ends 2017 there were lots of levers conservatives who hated Corbyn who hated, you know anti-socialists who hated the policies But they say you know what he's a euro skeptic and I'll give him his dues. He respects the vote They would say that so he's you know what I don't agree with them and it's this new year a lot It's a very contrarian sort of part of the English British psyche I don't agree with him, but he stands up for what he believes in and that's now gone And so I think you know that the thing between Corbyn and Brex. It's not necessarily as distinct a line as we might think I think I think I mean I feel as though a lot of people who are obsessing about the leadership and talk of Corbyn I'm not surprised that people were talking about Corbyn in the same way I'm not surprised that people are talking about Boris their leaders of the party people also talking about the MP people also talking about the council People also talking about you know various policies like I think you know anecdotally speaking I don't think that that was as important and actually statistically speaking is what I don't think it was as important as Brexit was I think that it was essentially this election essentially was a de facto second referendum in my view And I think the really important point as well is that yes When it comes to yeah, I think that's that's I just feel as though a lot of the people who are talking about Corbyn as being a unique Thing that was a problem not on the doorstep or a unique thing that was a problem as to why we lost I think that those are the people either with a political agenda or the people obsessing about the wrong thing like They've just looked at the results of the opinion polls. That's a pin. Again. I want to know how many people were sampled But also at the same time I'm not surprised people will talk about the leader of the party people will talk about kind of political issues people Talk about individuals people talk about the front bench I had people mentioning to me Like all kinds of different people being thrown into the mix because they're famous people like that when people think about politics They will think about individuals and they'll speak about them You know part of being leader of the party is having the responsibility of being mentioned on the doorstep, right? Like I don't think that that was the such a big problem that people went out and decided not to vote Labour Like I think the bigger issue was Brexit and clearly was Brexit. I mean also look We're going to get on this with the data. I guess we said it time and time again I you know, I actually I have no regrets in the last four years of what's happened My one regret is I caved on a second referendum Basically after European elections. I should have stuck to my guns and said it's a fucking daft idea. Why two-thirds of Labour seats Will leave voting two-thirds of Labour target seats voted leave, right? So yeah, of course 65% of the Labour vote voted remain But we know because of the way first pass the post works 400 seats voted leave You don't want to be in a situation like Hillary Clinton where you win, you know the popular vote But it's all concentrated in certain areas and so, you know, that's where I think Brexit was was the major issue Look, that shouldn't be controversial. There's a I think about 100 new Tory MPs, right there list There's an article on conservative home Listing them go read that article get their names put those names into Facebook look at their Facebook pages For their campaigns all of them their final video before the general election was vote for me Let's get Brexit done. Let's turn to really important things like the NHS No mention of Corbyn. It's about Brexit and not in the formulation. We saw previously, but actually as a way of attending to erosion of public services austerity, etc and Get Brexit done. Yeah action verb. What does that remind you of take back control? And we were so stupid to fall into the precise trap that Dominic Cummings and Tories High Command wanted The exact same trap to the extent where they they used to try a Tri-colon they had a three-part word get Brexit done take back control It was a mirror image. So anybody saying that wasn't the major factor I think is is being silly clearly on top of that Corbyn was an issue Of course he was but then let's look at the other leaders Boris Johnson There was a BMG poll shortly before the election 32% of the public wanted Corbyn as PM 39% wanted Johnson as PM actually Swinson was less popular than Corbyn The only national political leader who was popular was Nicholas Durgeon, right? So, you know Trump in the United States in 2016 Trump was very unpopular. Goose who else was unpopular Hillary Clinton Maybe that's just an aspect now of modern politics with new media, etc, you know So I don't I can't say that's the fame that how is that the primary thing when the guy who's just got a majority of 60 or 68 Also was pretty unpopular clearly. That's not that big a variable 50% of Tory Remainers still voted Tory for heartbreak hard Brexit Fronted by a guy who's synonymous with all the most egregious characteristics of the British establishment It's because the offer was was, you know, they looked at it in the hole. They didn't just go I don't like him. I'm gonna vote for Joe Swinson. Nobody thinks like this only like 60 people who all live in central London and right for the observer of the times I don't know if you have that much evidence for that statement that no one thinks like that Okay, another way of putting it would you so let's say in September Corbyn had his ratings were minus 60 which meant that 16% of people were satisfied 76% of people were dissatisfied I think it it went up slightly during the campaign. No, no, no, it was on minus 60 at the start I think you went up to about minus 40 or something. No, it went up significantly and also No, no, you don't use a proof. That doesn't mean anything. You ask people who's your preference to be prime minister There's two ways of measuring it a proof amazing. It doesn't mean that I think he's doing a good job You basically repeat the last thing you heard on the media Who do you think is the best candidate for PM him and Johnson? It was closing the longer the election went on That's the thing you should be looking at because people are saying who do I want to be the prime minister? They're not saying I think they're doing a good job. It's already abstract questions. It doesn't mean anything I think in a lot of places as well that we're talking about in the north or in the midlands, etc You know Proceeding this election proceeding even 2017 right the biggest issue on the doorstep Wasn't whether or not people were politically engaged enough to vote Tory vote Labour. It was apathy like it was a complete disillusionment And I think that much as the independence referendum in Scotland was that trigger for a lot of people to then you know Decide that the SNP was going to be home like Brexit was that trigger that led to a lot of people saying well actually I you know I want some real change and I don't think that the party establishment You know is going to do it for me except the Conservatives or maybe the Brexit party And I think that is as you were saying Aaron like either although it stayed home or they voted Tory They voted for the Brexit party and the big appealing thing that they kept bombarding people with was about Brexit So this idea I just I just feel like the obsession over whether or not the leader came up on the doorstep It's just I just think it's a complete distraction You know sky literally called this the Brexit election Come on What do you think the data so there've been a bunch of people I suppose we'll have this conversation with Paul when he's on on Wednesday as well They've been a lot of people who were saying that actually whilst it looks like because we lost leave seats The problem was adopting a second referendum. They've said well there's two there's two possible things You can say to that one we would have lost more remain seats had we not adopted a second referendum and the other which is a more subtle point is that Even in leave seats Sometimes there were more remainers that that left the Labour Party than leave us So I think that the data from data praxis is Whilst 900,000 to 1 million Labour leaders went over to the Tories or the Brexit party 1.3 million 2017 Labour voters went to remain parties to what extent so does this challenge the narrative? No, it doesn't vote that cost us the election main voters wanted to get this done It was always a minority interest have a second referendum. Sorry. Who do I want to say that? It's true. No, it's true. And I also just think that like I mean I wish we could do a simulation where we could go back in time and we could be more leave and then see how that plays out But I think that obviously we can't but just looking at how you know the voter share and the swings and the fact that we lost because in a lot of leave voting seats for being to remain and we Didn't actually, you know lose in many remain seats even though we weren't full-on back second referendum either like we had We were a hodgepodge of it Like you know a lot of people were still annoyed with us because we didn't just come out and say We want a people's vote and I think you could very easily say that we held that even though we were Equivocating on it for a long time and a lot of people were annoyed who were massively remain about us equivocating on it for a long time But quite evidently the people that came out and voted with their feet with the people who wanted Brexit and felt completely and utterly Sold down the river by Labour not not respecting the result of the referendum in its final result in terms of our Brexit policy in the manifesto So I think that it just I just I just think it's not based in reality I don't think it's based in feeling I just feel as though we're speaking to ourselves in in cities and bubbles when we say that you know Had we have back to second referendum that we would have been able to you know the entire election would have been different particularly because a Lot of the people who voted for the Lib Dems and for the Greens which people say You know if it'd been more remained then that margins would have transferred over I just think is unrealistic and untrue and complete fantasy La La land because you know people vote Lib Dem people people also vote green because of Policy differences they have with Labour and class differences and interests that they have that are better suited So I think that the idea that you know Remainers would have Poured out of you know in Grimsby or in West Bournemouth West to vote for for the Labour Party But if we'd gone for full second, you know people's vote second referendum then I think Yeah, I just don't think that's rooted in any tangible reality. Let's look at a couple of clips. Obviously many people have been Asked, you know key figures in the Labour Party asked what their verdict is on what's been gone on what their I suppose Diagnosis is of the problems. Let's go to John McDonald who was speaking on Andrew Ma about the problem of Corbyn's popularity Do you not acknowledge there was something about Jeremy Corbyn and perhaps you there are a lot of Traditional Labour voters did not like maybe it was the past support for Irish Republicanism and Hamas and all of that might have been But there was something there. I'm gonna read. I've got lots of quotes I'm gonna read you just one more from a Labour MP who was re-elected your last MP in Scotland Ian Murray He says every door I knocked on and my team and I spoke to 11,000 people mentioned Corbyn not Brexit But Corbyn I've been saying this for years the outcome is that we've let the country down and we must change course and fast Okay, I have a lot of time for Ian, but he'll admit. He's not from the beginning was never really He's never really the most solid Jeremy supporter, but there you are. However, he's reflecting what he had heard on the doorstep I think that was about the media portrayal of Jeremy than the reality But let's have the debate about the nature of our politics the nature of the Reportage of our politics and the nature I think the way they treat individuals because it wasn't just Jeremy They did the same to Ed Miliband. They did the same to Neil Kinnick So you don't think it's anything to do with the actual characters at the top of the Labour Party? I think it's anyone who challenges the establishment will be portrayed in this way Why? The establishment owned the media in this country. Okay, however, that doesn't mean the same mistakes were made And I'm sure there's elements of my politics of my character that could be taken apart I accept that but I think if you look at anyone who's challenged the system Of course the system will throw the kitchen sink at you and that's what happened So during the break Fox our producer was telling me how many people were pulled in the Ashcroft pole that we've been working from It's about 13,000. It's a legitimate, it's a decent pool John McDonald there is accepting that potential leadership was a problem But he's saying that it was in large part down to the media attacking someone who was anti-establishment What do you make of his comments there? I do feel as though he touches on a point that needs to be emphasised a lot more And I think that one of the biggest things to come out of this election The biggest kind of grouping of people to come out of this election worse in terms of their reputation as the media And how they have uncritically repeated propaganda that they know to be false consistently And then how that affects public discourse, how that affects politics I think that there's a lot to be said again by the way in which social media means that we all exist in little bubbles And we all just repeat things that we know the algorithm is all kind of made up So that we only see things that we agree with, etc, etc But by and large a lot of the stuff that was being reported by supposedly reputable organisations Tended to kind of pedal an idea of Jeremy being dangerous Jeremy not being allowed near the levers of power because he will not only break it But act in some kind of nefarious way, insidious way I think that that's going to be a problem for any kind of like leftist That's going to be a problem for any socialists coming after Corbyn And it's something we either need to nip in the bud or see real reform in I mean we're not going to be in government until the next time this happens right So if there is reform it will be going in the opposite direction I think that's the problem though because I think that unless that changes I worry about our messaging being able to get to the people needs to get to Like obviously there's organising we need to do at the base But by and large how we consume media is important and what we consume is also important Do you think there's any chance that if the next leader of the Labour Party As to be honest I expect it to be Is similarly left wing to Jeremy Corbyn that they could go into a general election A bit more unscathed and less wounded than Corbyn has been They don't even need to be left wing Gordon Brown was the Chancellor of Blairism And the way he was treated going into the 2010 general election The media said he was an anti-depressants He was blind in one eye They went into his family history what happened with the rest of his children Into his past Into his temper tantrums all sorts of things You know what Gordon Brown in many ways was destroyed by the media more than Jeremy Corbyn They just had less time They just didn't have four years to do it They had about two years to really go for him ahead of 2010 So I don't actually think it's unique to him being a socialist What we need to understand is Only one Labour politician has become the Prime Minister in this country Since Rupert Murdoch owned The Times and The Sunday Times And since he moved the printing of The Sun Away from Fleet Street to Wapping That was in terms of the media analogous to the minor strike It was a decisive moment in the transformation of how culture is produced in this country And only one person has done that Who was it? Tony Blair Tony Blair was the literal godson of Godson, he was the godfather rather Or Murdoch was the godfather to one of Blair's kids Other way round I think Tony Blair was the godfather to one of Murdoch's daughters I don't, how's that, how old? Well I can believe it's Murdoch I think Murdoch has younger kids than Tony Blair That's just crazy Anyway, I can believe that Regardless, they're incredibly intimate Before Blair became Prime Minister He flew half way around the world to get the endorsement of Murdoch And so there's an argument to be said, well, you know, that's what you have to do There's no point having a Labour Prime Minister If they're indistinguishable from a Conservative Prime Minister And so we need to understand that when Clement Attlee won in 1945 The Daily Worker, which is today's Morning Star Had a bigger readership than The Financial Times The Daily Herald, The Daily Mirror Were as big as the Express and The Daily Mail Those are the four largest newspapers in the country by circulation In the 1960s, out of the 70s When Harold Wilson won four times The biggest paper in the country by readership was The Daily Mirror It was Labour supporting So something really decisive has changed in the media In this country And so people obviously, people go for the easy sort of answers Oh, Blair was this magician Well no, he was the only one who's responded in such a way To a changed media environment which people on the left I think ourselves included would say Very much limited that project The Blair project could have gone far further On electoral reform, on cancer housing On public services, on making the argument for taxation Et cetera, and it didn't Because it was beholden to Murdoch So I agree with Huda You know, we have to have We've got five years now And it could get worse In five years there might not even be The Daily Mirror Or the BBC Yeah A whittled-down BBC in a sort of version of Fox News Channel 4 Channel 4 might lose some of its sort of Public broadcast kind of Mandate that it has right now from the state As does ITV So, you know, the social media dark ads Could become an even bigger part of the electoral terrain Things could get far, far worse Which is why, you know, a political media project like this But not just this, other ones as well A key And then confronted with that Confronted with the avalanche of vested interests Which instantiate themselves Through rigged ownership of the press What do we have? The new statesman Which couldn't discern between Boris Johnson And an anti-racist socialist And, you know, we have The Observer Which instructed its readership The Sunday before the general election To vote for Sam Giemer Over eminent code in Kensington Giemer gets 9,000 votes Comes third by a long way Eminent code loses by 150 votes These are the people who were purportedly on our side So that's why I think media is such an important thing Going forward for the left If we don't do something about this We have no chance Is there any way that the next leader can sort of show Or is there any chance that they can withstand some of those attacks Because, I mean, ultimately, the media landscape Is not going to be that different in five years' time, is it? I mean, you can build Navarra media You can build Tribune, but there's still going to be A lot of people who are, you know, absorbing media Through the nexus of the broadsheet press Reflected via the BBC I think one sort of way in which we can work To mitigate this is sort of looking at social media Because, you know, I think Aaron raised it earlier About how the Conservatives were able to utilise Facebook And utilise kind of like digital spaces In a way that I think that whilst we were also I think gaining a lot of ground there I think that, you know, how much was it In the last three or four days that the Conservatives Supposedly spent just on ads that were very targeted I think every time I went on Facebook or YouTube Or something, I was like a massive Conservative banner I don't know how many millions it was But it was definitely like a majority of its budget You know, their campaign budget must have been spent In the last couple of days Just like inundating people's social media I think that is a completely different terrain That nobody owns in a way I think obviously when we look at Facebook and Twitter And the way that they behave Yes, they do a lot to kind of not challenge Or stamp out some of the kind of very far-right Kind of creatures that we've seen emerging From various cesspits and pools Across those different terrains But I think that that could be key You know, even if we don't have the BBC If we don't have Sky, if we don't have All these major news publications Yes, creating media where we can Like you were saying, Navarra Tribune, etc But I think getting a better grip on social media Will be very, very important We've got a couple of tweets on the hashtag Pat McClusker says, I think we need to be Opening community centres in these seats We lost, offering food parcels Cardship support and political education Like the Pampfers, Louis tweets Labour should have backed to soft Brexit Not a second referendum Remain voters, I believe Are more likely to stick with Labour For their socialist policies Leave voters want to get Brexit Over and done with, and so voted Tory It would have been the best choice Someone who agreed with Louis Was Caroline Flint A clip of which we are going to now I think she was speaking to Sophie Ridge on Sky I'm emotional, I'm trying to Send my anger at Sophie In all of this But I am emotional because I do believe That in the pursuit of Remain A number of people Who have been ardent Remainers in our party On our front bench People like Keir Starmer People like Emily Thornberry But many others, Hillary Ben Yvette Cooper They have contributed to Sacrificing 59 seats I think I said 40 we would lose If we pursued this strategy 59 seats But don't worry, we've got Putney And we've got Canterbury With all due respect to the Labour MPs For those constituencies I don't believe that was worth it I'm emotional So there will be I mean from the sounds of it It sounds like most people at this table Kind of agree with Caroline Flint That the costs of the Brexit policy That the Labour Party adopted Definitely outweighed the benefits I mean for me I agree with that Particularly just because I think I feel like even if you're undecided about Which one would have lost more seats It was just a bad policy I woke up the next day I was devastated at the Labour loss But the one silver lining was Oh God thank God we don't have to do that Second referendum that we're offering I feel like there are a lot of people in the country Who are just like Oh God thank God we don't have to do that Second referendum But in any case there's going to be a lot of I suppose disputing retrospectively And in hindsight Whether or not the Labour Party Should have had a different Brexit policy Moving forward though Is that kind of irrelevant now? I mean at the next general election Brexit will have happened And can we just move on? Or is it important for us to work out Precisely what went on here And how we came to have this particular position Which lost us those seats I think it's important to investigate The framing of which Because I think actually it was Caroline That said or accused Emily Thornberry Of calling was at her constituent Stupid or something Which I think Emily is going to sue about She's now taking legal action against her But I think it speaks to a trend That I'm seeing And that I'm very very worried about Where you have a complete polarisation In terms of discourse And I think that a lot of this is what I'm seeing In people outing each other on Twitter But I think it does speak to conversations And dialogue that people are having around Brexit I think we just need to be very very careful about There's a lot of people that I respect That are going into camps Of either calling the working class That came en masse to vote for the Tories And vote for the Brexit party As you said With the sole aim of getting Brexit done Are completely like feckless Non-intellectual Are getting to a point where they're basically saying That there should be an intelligence test Before you're able to vote Like really You heard many people say that? Oh God, I mostly remain as I have to say But it's just like a bubble People on Twitter I mean Twitter is a bubble Twitter is a bubble And I completely appreciate that But I've seen people say that But what I've also seen Is a lot of people that I respect Also on the complete opposite end Saying that the working class are morally virtuous And there's nothing that they could have done wrong And that we need to be following them Off whatever cliff they want to go down And fundamentally essentially almost say That it's a homogenous white group of people And that if we want to win We're going to have to Whatever viewpoints they have Kind of like go down to their level in a way And I think it's frustrating on two levels Because I think that there is The one thing that I'm seeing That I'm mostly incredibly angry about Is again this birth of the myth Of the importance of the white working class And this special status of the white working class Which isn't helpful to anybody But I think also just like It's very paternalistic It's very sort of patronizing It's almost saying that like You have a whole grouping of people Who clearly for various different reasons Decided to vote for Brexit But it wasn't the kind of Brexit That we talk about There's a lot of people that I respect That I love that I know Who voted leave, right Who voted for very different reasons Than some other people did And I think that we can't just Clump them all together And say that Brexit Means the same thing for everybody I think we have to really investigate Like what we need to be doing In our communities And this is where it kind of goes back to Creating that infrastructure In our communities Where we can have these conversations And we can And I think the biggest missed opportunity Is that I know that there is a Left Brexit group now I think it's called Left I don't know what the acronym is But the missed opportunity Is that that wasn't a lot earlier And that it wasn't trying to shift the debate Because I think that even Regardless of what your political positioning is On Brexit I think that definitely was a vacuum When it comes to the platforming Of a socialist idea Around why leave is important And so I don't think we should take it As a victory Anybody who supported Brexit Or anybody who is in the party And felt as though The position wasn't right I don't think we can celebrate The fact that people by and large Approved us right In saying that they cared a lot about Their leave vote And they would have loved And wanted the Labour Party To go with them and respect that I mean how many times Does Remain have to lose You've got the 2014 European elections UKIP come first You've got the 2015 general election The Tories and UKIP Between them get 49% of the popular vote I know the sort of the centre Love to talk about PR Well if we had PR They would have heard a pretty strong mandate To have a Brexit referendum The following year 2016 We get the referendum It wins We leave 2017 Two parties amass 80% of the popular vote Between them saying they'll Respect the vote 2019 We have a European election With a Brexit party Which didn't exist Four months earlier Then becomes the Equal largest party In the European Parliament The Liberals And the Greens do very well But they're still far behind Then in 2019 General election The Tories get A really big majority On the basis of saying They'll honour the vote You know, how many times Is it going to have to be Best of 15 16 17 Before people say Well, you know And then people even now With this general election Are saying Well, they didn't win the popular vote Well, because the Brexit party Stood down They won the popular vote in 2016 Because there was a literal referendum Which didn't have any seats You know, so It has to be repeated The idea of a second referendum Being this mass thing Was never true And the thing about Oh, well today 52% would vote remain And 48% would vote leave If confronted with a second referendum Or whatever, right? Still margin of error Of the same result was 2016 But the idea of people Actively wanting a second referendum That was never The highest that went was like Mid-40s, right? That's the highest it ever went It was never a mass thing And so I just think it was complete It was just complete delusion But what happened was The People's Vote campaign Effectively became The fourth party of politics In this country You know, they set up A full-time staff of 60 people In Millbank They had all these Outsourced hands You know, arms length operations Off-Oc All this stuff You know, they flooded the media And the big consequence of that is They fucked Labour Not just they fucked Labour They helped transform the Tory party That's what we have to understand Because this did too That this polarisation Of the electorate around Brexit Was definitely Was the final nail in the coffin For a moderate Conservative party Right? That kind of dies with Cameron in 2016 But obviously it's on live support With Theresa May You've still got Amber Rudd You've still got, you know You know, Shadow Chancellor I've already forgotten his name That's how quickly things move on Philip Hammond You had, you know Remain supporting Joe Johnson They've all gone They've all gone because of this polarisation And the People's Vote operation Fed into the exact cleavage That Nigel Farage and Dominic Cummings wanted And it's destroyed It's destroyed this country Like, earlier this year We had the indicative votes Around a customs union Right? Theresa May, historically weak We needed a parliamentary majority And a customs union, by the way This really has to be stressed A customs union would have stopped A free trade agreement with the United States The US and these leaked, unredacted Recently published documents have said We won't be able to have A free trade agreement with Britain If there's a customs agreement They say that quite openly It's a precondition And so having a customs union Would have stopped, basically A sell-off of the NHS to American big business Do you know who voted against it? Caroline Lucas Do you know who voted against it? Chuck Oumona Mike Gapes Do you know who abstained? 10 of the 12 Lib Dem MPs So I just can't believe these people I really cannot believe these people We have to have an inquest into Corbyn No, we have to have an inquest into Caroline Lucas The Greens are saying we need more green MPs What? To vote against a customs union So the fucking Yanks can buy the NHS No, thank you Actually, you know what? One green MPs, one too many Thank you very much Wow, one... Wow I mean, one green MPs, one too many I wouldn't really agree with What? They voted against a customs union That now means we can have a free trade agreement With the US and we can privatise the NHS That was a massive mistake on their behalf But I mean, if we're talking about mistakes on Brexit The Labour Party just made a big fat one, didn't they? You've got one MP, that's all she's done It's not only about 20 MPs And two of them are fucked up They had one MP she voted against Even the Lib Dems abstained Even 10 of the 12 Lib Dems abstained She voted against it With the likes of Chuck Oumona and Mike Gapes And Anna Subri I think as well, I don't think we should Feed into this argument that Particularly a lot of Tories are peddling But in general is being peddled There has just been a decisive, massive shift And that we've lost people And they've all gone into the Conservatives And this is, I think when you look at It's just not as simple as red cities And towns or whatever turning blue I think when you look at the big story here It's the Labour vote collapsing So it was ours to lose in some way And I think that when you are members And our supporters either vote For the Brexit party or stayed at home It's a story of defeat And not one of Tory victory And that is, I think, displayed By the very small kind of vote shares They got across the board So stuff like, again, I think it's kind of like Not in Bassett Law I think this feeds into the wider conversation When people say, yes, it was a plethora of things Yes, it was a steady decline for decades But it wasn't unwinnable I think that with a better Brexit policy I definitely think that we could have clawed A lot of those seats But then again, is that something we need to pat ourselves On the back about, the fact that we could have hung on And in a lot of places we did hang on But the fact that we could have hung on To quite a lot of those seats by the skin of our teeth Clearly there's something else at play That's something bigger at play And I think, again, it's that decline But also the destruction of institutions The person who was writing in about community centres It showcases the importance of that Because this is a much bigger political problem That we need to solve And it's going to take a lot more than A better Brexit policy to solve it But it definitely, what we saw happen Definitely wouldn't have happened If we had a better Brexit And I think anybody who is trying to argue with that And a lot of people are I've seen a lot of people, you know Arch, arch, you know Politicos who know kind of what they were talking about When they say things, usually They've gone completely gargar And they're saying that, you know Actually, we should have gone for a full people's vote And that that would have made a difference And it's just, the whole world has turned upside down Sometimes when people talk about Brexit But I think one thing is clear That was the biggest contributing factor Of our defeat in this election Do you not sometimes worry that the talk of So going back to that tweet I can't remember who sent it But I don't want to know Is that I sometimes find that the whole We need to build community centres In these areas and do outreach Is itself kind of patronising Because it's saying We have to convince these people Of our position Maybe you just have to listen No, but this is the thing It's not even about convincing It's about organising, right When we talk about CLP's Becoming Maribam That's a problem Because that used to be a place Where people talked about politics And if people are in their own echo chambers And it makes me really sad Because when we talk about The destruction of community centres Community spaces, communal centres Education is a big part of this as well And in a way in which We're taught about ourselves And taught about the country It's important because That breakdown of the fabric of society And that breakdown in the bonds That hold us together How are we going to organise as activists? How are we going to organise As anybody who wants something Better for society If we're never seeing each other That alienation does something When people are working seven days a week Just to get by It does something that they can't Come into community spaces Come into spaces in general Where they can interact with other people And it's not just about challenging people It's also about amplifying the voices of people So when people think about representation For instance And I sometimes get really worked up about it Because I don't think that representation For representation's sake matters Right? Like I think what matters Is representation when it is The product of community organising But if you can't organise Because there is no community to organise Right? It's not patronising What I find patronising Is just turning round and saying That we should look at the working classes Homogenous group that are patriotic And nationalistic And that we need to be Much more socially conservative To pander to them I don't think that's right either I think that you have In a lot of places You have In a lot of places that we've lost You have an ageing demographic in towns Because I think this is a picture Not just of leave and remain This is a picture of cities versus towns In a lot of places you have towns With an ageing demographic And a majority white demographic But that is not to say That that is an irredeemable thing For us as people who are socialists We can organise in them But it's just the infrastructure too And if the infrastructure The apparatus in which we can organise Around is gone Well then we either have to create it And that needs to be The biggest electoral strategic priority Right? We did have a We still do have a community organising unit Right? But again that was concentrated Largely in cities And I don't think we did enough To reach out And actually when we look at the campaign As a whole It was momentum that was most aggressive About making sure activists left cities And now you know It should have been from day dot The priority of regions And it wasn't Right? And I think in a large part It's complacency In a large part It's saying that these are places Would never lose Even if we hang on by two votes Right? That's well you know I don't think that That is going to be something You know them turning blue This city, this town Whatever turning blue is possible And I think it's essentially That's to some extent There's a lot of people Who have shot us in the foot Foot I mean just looking back now At the sort of Literally the thousands of people Going to Uxbridge and Rye Slip And to Chingford Thousands of people Like looking back How stupid was that Now look We all did it They were closer margins Than a lot of other places You see That's the problem What was the point of like You don't need 700 There's literally not enough boards For 700 canvas and a seat And I saw that They weren't doing anything I turned up I turned up actually When 600 people came I've never seen 600 More excited people It was great that they were there But then it was like We only have four boards And it was like Well okay then And then it's And then the thing should have been That region Every single time Yes When we look at someone like FISA We look at someone like Ali You know They were The candidate drew A lot of those people in Because they offered hope And the idea that We could unseat Boris Johnson IDS Etc. Gave people hope But the big thing should have been That the region should have been You know getting buses out there To as soon as like We get like Full up after a couple of hundred You just smack everyone Onto a bus And take them to Thorough Like it's not Momentum did it It's really not that hard It should have been a strategic Priority for the Labour Party Where I would say That that is the biggest Misallocation of resources In terms of The whole campaign But the thing is With Labour And with region So if people watching The region operation is You know You have the south East south west Etc. Etc. They're inherently conservative Understandably conservative Really so Because they don't want to be You know They don't want to be the people That lost seats on their watch So somebody For instance If you're in the south And you're responsible for Southampton Etchin Which was a marginal Which Labour didn't win Portsmouth South Which was a marginal Which Labour held and did win And Southampton Test You're going to basically Allocate resources To the ones you already hold Because you think What if I lose any You know I'd rather not lose any Than actually Take the chance Of maybe winning one But if I You know There's going to outweigh The upside And so there is this very Cautious approach With the region Where that wasn't ever Going to happen Of like Okay, let's bust these people Into these other sort of Marginals and stuff So Something to learn But yeah You're saying they were Winnable It doesn't 700 people in a seat Is stupid If you haven't got the Boards If you haven't got the Data If you haven't got a Scalable model Which we didn't have I shouldn't say We It's over No questions in There's already a couple Collected here Thomas Alan Owen asks Would rebuilding Labour CLPs in communities All around the country Help get around The constant onslaught From the print media Embed labour As part of people's Daily lives Yeah I think CLPs Have to be The nexus Of a community When we're talking about You know And things are Going to get a lot worse Things are going to get Ramped up a lot more We've seen For instance food banks And other sort of Like you know When it comes to All these various things That people have done Quite successful campaigns On the ground And charities are doing A lot of work on I think the big thing For CLPs Is going to have to be Not just being Spaced to have Political discussions About the internal Mechanisms of the party Even though Of course it's important It also has to be A place of refuge Of organising Of a linkage That kind of Binds people together In communities I think we have to be As ambitious as that And in a lot of places It's going to be Very difficult because Like I said There's a lot of work But I think if we're as ambitious As that I think that's how you Draw people in Because if you're Only talking to yourselves Then yeah I'm not surprised that You know Not many people turn up To your meetings But if you're Part If you're the centre Of the community You know And particularly because A lot of places I have to say I'm not really sure What the numbers are But a lot of Local labour Houses They still have Property And that can be Used So yeah Can I just say A few quick things For getting more questions Firstly Labour Had a good campaign I'm not talking about The manifesto I'm not talking about The leadership etc Thought the manifesto Was weaker than 2017 Actually But obviously If you're looking At the polar polls Labour started Election on 27 I think They ended up Getting 32% Of the popular vote So One of our bets With Corbynism Was It will be able to Change the polls But actually Despite Brexit Despite a relatively weak manifesto I think despite More Negative media coverage This time round It still went up About 5% Second one is Actually there's three Second one is This was almost Testing to destruction The idea of organic Social media reach Versus paid We still don't really know Which It sort of 2017 seemed to indicate Organic social media reach Momentum etc Actually is Probably more effective Than paid If you do it right We don't know If that happened this time I suspect The negative advertising On Corbyn In Labour leave seats Was highly Highly effective And people say Well I've not heard anything Negative about Corbyn And people say Well I hear it on every door I wouldn't be that surprised If literally every person That constituency is getting Just negative Corbyn centric ads Every single day And then And that's something We need to think about Personally I want to see An end to basically Any sort of paid Online advertising Political advertising In this country Who saw in this election Was basically Capitalist Capitalist worker Facebook page We don't know Who's funding these ads We don't know who's behind them We don't know Who they're accountable to Etc And then finally You know There's this idea Of big organizing You know Big organizing The Bernie Sanders stuff And I suspect Big organizing is good Enough to win you a primary In the US It's good enough for Bernie Sanders to Maybe meet Joe Biden This time Jeremy Corbyn To be Owen Smith in 2016 But I suspect It's probably not good enough To take on The entire establishment With vested interest Behind it With the media behind it And also Having a weak candidate In the eyes of legacy media Which was what Jeremy Corbyn Ultimately was by 2019 It can't make up For all those deficiencies It can out As we saw Five, six percent Which is great If you have a great candidate A great manifesto A great machine Nationally But in and of itself I think we had an almost Kind of messianic view Of what might happen In the campaign Sort of unfolded But not entirely And then I guess To finish In terms of the The national presence thing You know We have to All the left has to think About building An organization here Which already pisses me off With the stuff about Tactical voting And you know We need a Progressive alliance The fundamental question For working people Since the early 19th century Is the question of Organization And if you're talking About tactical voting And quick fixes And you vote here Or over there Or portrait representation I support Pierre We'll solve everything You're not grasping The fundamental question Which is plagued us Through the Paris commune 1917, 1968, 1989 The question of organization And how it relates to the state And your theory of change And your theory of the state And what made this Look so absurd Was the Guardian That day after the election Saying Oh, Labour's lost Go donate a toothbrush To a homeless shelter Go give somebody a hug I mean God We are facing five million You know Kids in poverty by 2022 That's not a meaningful theory Of change for me And that's what we have to have And that, you know It really is inimically linked To the question of organization And building that organization I mean to be very brief I mean I think Community organizing Yeah, it has its value But I think also To say that your CLP Is going to become The centre of your community One I don't know how realistic It is And two It is an easy way out If people didn't like Exactly what you were offering Then just saying Oh, we'll make our CLP More ambitious Is potentially a recipe For losing again I don't think that's true I think that if we made If every CLP was active And was drawing in A wider kind of breadth of community And I think in some CLPs Who see that happen I think you can see Really successful community Organizing in some CLPs But what I'm talking about Is as things get worse The Labour Party needs to be Front and centre In offering change And that was the case Like I use again Anecdotally that experience Of that member That I met Who'd said that 40 plus years ago Entire streets Would be going to CLP meetings And that isn't the case anymore It's, you know And that's because they saw Not just the political You know, the Labour Party As the only political vehicle And being able to enact Change in society But it also saw It saw community In the Labour Party It went to the Labour Party Meetings People went to the Labour Party Meetings And they saw themselves Reflected in it Why in large In a lot of places that we left I would, you know I would bet a lot of money That a lot of those were CLPs that were quite maribund And I think that That does translate into something When you talk about policy The way in which policy is made To some extent Not just through conference But also kind of in Kind of putting pressure On the leadership on the NEC Again, a lot of that Will have to do with Having as many people As not just as Labour Party Members But actually active In their local area In their local communities And being able to kind of Push the party Into a direction That's actually very, very good So yeah, no, I disagree I disagree I think we have to be ambitious Also, if we're not going to be ambitious What's the point? Also, can't we just do both? Yeah I mean, surely you don't think It's an either-or, right? No, that's what I said I don't think it's enough I think it's too easy an answer That people always settle down on Oh, we need to get Make our CLPs more active It's all like Maybe you're going to actually Have to, you know No, I don't disagree We shouldn't do more But I'm also saying That I think it's going to be A very, I think it's going To be front and centre To what the party itself Kind of says is important, you know Someone's agreeing with me on Twitter Which is unusual On the Tiskey Sauer hashtag Watching Tiskey Sauer I think Michael Walker gets it Talking about attacks on Labour leaders He said that new media Isn't going to be big enough To fight against that in five years' time Which means we need a leader That isn't so easy for them To attack in the way that JC was I would actually modify that slightly Whatever left-wing leader we have Is going to be just as easy To attack as Jeremy Corbyn But I do think that there was It's for at least a year now Jeremy Corbyn has been Somewhat unable to Respond to those attacks In a convincing way And that has made him Sort of hide from the press A little bit And I think that did It's not, it's, you know It's an incredibly difficult task To manage an onslaught From the entire British establishment But when you are up against all of that You do have to be, you know Exceptionally disciplined With how you're responsible I think leader of the Labour Party Is probably the second hardest job In this country after Managing the England national football team You know, it's very much a poison challenge You know, you have to really Work hard at it And so, you know Whoever comes next Will be subject to a massive Character assassination Okay, the next tweet is massively Agreeing of you, Hilda Michelle, watching the incredible Comrade that is Huda Elmi On Tiskey Sour by Navarra Media She is so right, saying that We see a breakdown of the bonds That hold us together And we need more organising In the periphery to fight alienation And create places where Communities can be built Thank you, Michelle Can I also say as well About the, you know I think people talk about The young and lame communities I actually just think they have High levels of class consciousness Than, you know, left behind You see, I'm worried Left behind white working class But it's not a class... No, no, no For me The crisis happens in 2008 It temporalises Certainly current relations In a specific way So older working class people Are more likely to own assets Than younger working class people They've seen their wages fall To a lesser extent Pensions have been inoculated From wage declines Which we've seen across The working age population They have a completely different Relationship to credit They have basically 0% interest Rates on their mortgages So young people have to get in debt They're facing a very tough labour market They're giving 50% plus of their wages To a landlord So I think given those conditions You're going to be more Understanding of your class Of your class position You are That's also their more working class That comprehension is far easier To sort of grasp, I think I think we can't be complacent though Because I think it's complacency That's got us to a lot of the failures That we see today What's complacent about that? No, no, no, no Let me... What I'm saying is that Yes, by and large When we look at kind of Ethnic minority communities in Britain I'm saying young people You mentioned BAME as well I said both Okay, let's take it Because BAME is a separate issue Young people But my point is that I feel as though We're going to go down A path of being complacent About BAME I know that's not what you were talking about But I feel that Because I don't know if you guys Saw the conservative party candidate For Croydon, her campaign It was one of the littlest things I've ever seen Like, literally Was able to pull all these young people And kind of like Kind of... Sorry, I've got this thing in my throat Was able to pull lots of young people To be part of the campaign Lots of black disenfranchised views It was a young black woman Who was the candidate, wasn't it? But also was able to tap into The local megachurch, right? And be able to use that Now I think that BAME communities by and large Are much more interconnected By virtue of just The kind of oppression that they face But also by virtue of the community bonds That still exist Particularly kind of where it's interlinked In the cross section between You know, we talk about various different religions Et cetera, I think that They're able to kind of hold together The bonds between each other By virtue of necessity But also by virtue of just again When we particularly look at some of the seas That we've lost as well The kind of segregation that we sometimes see Between like BAME communities And kind of like their white counterparts But I think it's interesting though Because I feel as though the conservatives Are doing a very, very good job Of tapping into some sections Of that BAME community And being able to light this fire Of saying that we're able to offer you a lot more And that the Labour Party Is taking your votes for granted And I think whereas in the 80s We saw the same problem The Labour Party takes our votes for granted And the solution was to Organise within the party structures To not just get representation But to get meaningful kind of changes On policies that were going to be Impacting ethnic minority communities I think we are, I think we have to do A lot more to be conscious of the fact That we can't take for granted As we took a lot of votes for granted Across the country The ethnic minority community here in Britain Let me give you an example So like last year's local elections I was canvassing in Sutton, South London Which is one of the places Which could be Labour in a couple of years Maybe a decade's time Because of demographic changes Household after household Nobody's interested And you could very clearly see That race was mapping onto class In so much as statistically significant correlation Between small household Lots of kids, very cramped And they were more likely to be just a fact And again, statistically significant correlation They were just more likely to be Labour voters Partly because of economics I think partly because of culture So one thing What can the Tories offer those young kids That you're talking about? Homeownership? Nope Higher wages? Not really A sense of national inclusiveness Where they have the same opportunities Affords them as a wealthy Young kid that goes to eat Nope So again It goes back to materialist understanding Of what's happening Since the crisis Building consent upon an offer Of improving living standards Hasn't happened Which is why Brexit's so effective Because actually The Tories now have managed to garner consent Around something entirely different Entirely abstracted away From improving even people's living standards To the extent that people are voting Tory In Labour leave seats Saying I want change I'm going to vote Conservative While they've been in government for nine years Because in their head Honouring Brexit Was there change from the status quo? Was that departure? Then secondly I'm referring really to young people And I agree with you Labour can't take BAME people's votes for granted I get very worried when I see sections of the left Sort of view Oh that this particular subject position In society is the most radical Revolutionary subject position You're a black person You're a half Iranian You're Muslim You're therefore this radical subject You have this energy that nobody else can have Your oppression necessarily maps on To your political agency Bollocks, right? First and foremost We've departed from a world where there is This historical agent of change sadly The industrial proletariat Of the early 20th century Working class people come in all shapes All colours, all sizes But young people I think is the big one Because they have a profoundly different experience Of the economy Just profoundly, profoundly different And that's why you see this This inversion by age Of voter preference And so I think That is a class analysis Young people know There is really no future for them in this system Whereas if you own a home We don't know this People who own homes have basically had 0% interest rates in their mortgages for ten years They've been paying less On a three bedroom house's mortgage Than I'm paying for a one bed flat in south London Right? So of course they have a different relationship To use a Marxist and the means of production And of course I'm going to understand My class position more than they are Paul C. asks We should do this as a last question probably Paul C. asks Labour voters who went Tory Or Labour voters who went Green, Lib Dems Labour voters who didn't vote So there's three categories of people Which demographic is the most important For Labour to win back? I mean in a very simple mathematical way It's the ones who went Conservative Because every vote that goes to the Conservatives Is double lost because it's one up for them And one down for us I think you're right to some extent In saying that kind of mathematically That's important, but all of them All of them We've got five years We're not going to have another election For five years, right? So let's be ambitious Yeah, probably don't disagree with that All of them What's that? Who should Labour be focusing on? I suppose another way of putting the question Is there a tension between Labour Focusing on winning back Conservative voters And Winning back People who went to Lib Dems and Greens Or people who said at home Is it the same message to all of them Or have they got to construct a bunch of different messages Or have they got prioritised one over the other? We had a massive surge of people registering To vote a couple of weeks ago And then it turns out that a significant number of people Who registered to vote never actually voted This time around And that's the first thing that Labour needs To reach out to Is expanding the electorate That'd be my first thing I think this time we got Down on last time Still actually quite historically speaking I think high 60s turn out this time round You know, for Labour to have a majority Which right now sounds crazy You're going to need turnout of like 75% You just are, right? Because the people least likely to turn out The young, lame communities Low-income earners, renters These are our base They have to be our base It's not going to be bankers and fucking, you know Brought by to let landlords, is it? So that would be the first thing It's people who aren't presently voting Thomas Merr says, lol, why not mention We're going to do back some SNP voters We're going to save that for a future show We're going to do a show on what happened in Scotland Graham Judd asks, what policies does Michael want to change? I'm also going to save that for a future show Because I think we're going to wrap up now And that could be a longer discussion I'm here most days So, let's wrap it up Thank you, Huda, so much for joining me this evening Of course, thank you for having me You've gone down very well in the comments as ever Thank you Aaron Bostani, thank you so much My pleasure, we had 2,700 people watching There are still 2,700 people watching That's crazy So make sure you Hit the like button It doesn't cost you anything Hit the subscribe button Tweet about this show We want to expand our audience Just as Labour needs to expand the electorate And go to support.navaramedia.com Donate the equivalent of 1 hour's wage a month Or maybe give us a post-election bonus So we can contribute towards Building a left back up So we're ready to win in 5 years time And see you on Thursday If you are in London this Thursday evening Then join us at Brixton Jam For the Navara Media Christmas Party Well then, are you free on Thursday evening? Huda will be there I'll be there Aaron will be there To get your tickets go to buytickets.at forward slash navaramedia I'll be back same time tomorrow With Ash Tharkar and Ian Lavery MP And then Wednesday we've got Paul Mason then Big week Big week Good night