 Welcome to KK Handic State Open University. Today, we will be discussing on opportunities of higher education in Europe. And it is a privilege to have with us here in the studio today Mr. Sanjeev Roy, senior higher education expert, European Union Public Diplomacy and Outrage in India and the CERC. We welcome you, sir, to our studio. And at the very outset, let me say that we extend our heartfelt thanks to you for spending, for giving us your valuable time. And it's an honor to have you here with us today, sir. Thank you very much. So, since, sir, we know that Europe is a dream destination for many students and you are an expert in the field of European higher education. So, we would like to hear from you what makes European education or European higher education unique? Why is there so much of, you know, praise for European higher education? Okay. See, Europe has a destination for higher education for Indian students. See, traditionally, if you look at Europe, students from India have been chasing to go and do engineering courses, courses related to science, courses related to management. And they have been going typically to US as a destination, followed by UK and now Australia. So, Europe, why Indian students have not been going, big numbers is because people in India were not aware that in Europe, the course is being offered in English language. So, the notion here is that if I go to Denmark, the course will be in Danish. If I go to Italy, it will be in Italian. But over and what Europe has done is they are the only continent, I think, in the world who are not selling education. Like you will not find any advertisement from European Union about any scholarship. You would not find any advertisement on come and study in Europe. Why is this? Because Europe has a continent, all the institutions, if you look at the history of European institutions, they have been set up in 10th century, 11th century, 12th century. If they are that old, at the same time, so what they believe is, they believe is in small numbers. People who want to come study, do research. So, their education is not like KFC chicken, right. It is a traditional Indian food which we all eat, which our grandmother used to give it to us. So, now Indian students have started realizing that Europe as a destination is very good from the point of education, from the point of research, from the point of opportunities for Indian students get. So, that is how Europe now, you will see Europe suddenly is emerging as one of the top destinations for Indian students. Okay. And so, how are the courses or the method of study in Europe different from India? See, if you look at the study, they are not different from India. Because in India what we do is, we have been traditionally known as that it is a very rote learning kind of a system. You are yourself in your teaching faculty, you will know that when you are in a class, you speak, I as a student will just copy what ma'am is saying, right. So, it is one way. It is one way traffic. In Europe what happens is that students will speak and ma'am like you would contribute. Okay, so it is served. Yeah, it is because it is student learning. It is very, very important. Yeah, it is not education, it is a learning which is very important. See, this is a difference between our education system and theirs. We are more into education. They are more into learning. So, it is a continuous learning system. Both. So, for example, of late in India, we have started talking about the learning outcomes. In Europe, they always talk of the learning outcomes. So, they would not say that dola ma'am has taken four classes. They will say if dola ma'am took this class, what was the learning outcome for the student? Okay. So, suppose you have one class, learning outcome cannot be that one class. Before that, you would have told the students that you have to read all these four case study. So, that again is a learning. So, that is why you will see that our education system is very good. We have been producing lot of scholars, lot of… But still, why do not we have any product from India which is number one in the world? Why is it the European products? Why is it the US products? Now, look at the Nobel laureate prize. All the prize winners, more than 50 percent, all their base education has been in Europe. Then they have gone to US for the research. So, I think the European education system is more on research. It is more on students' interest. And it is a learning which you want to do at your own space. It is a learning. Self-learning. Self-learning. And within that also, I will give you an example. I was doing my master's in lifelong learning, right? European policy and management. Now, suppose after first semester, I wanted to go and learn guitar. I could do that. And I could collect credits, guitar and education. How does it make sense? Can you do this in India? We cannot do that. So, at the end of my master's, if I would have shown I have got a credit in music, I can add it to my master's thing. So, that is why you see it is very hands-on. Education is very hands-on. For us, we follow a strict curriculum. Yeah, we follow a strict curriculum which has... And we have to stick to that. You know, our students do not get time for extra-curricular activities. And it is like a problem now that you have to stick to study, study and study. Yeah. And that is why also you will also realize that that is why we hear about the complaint that the course syllabus has not been updated. It is from 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. Same old thing. So, whereas take a small kid today in India, a three-year-old kid is playing with a mobile. Now, which course offers a course in mobile? See, look at the difference. Yeah. Right? Our three-year-old kid knows what is mobile. None of our course has a mobile course. Whereas, if you look at Europe, pick up any university, they will have hundred of courses on mobile. They have courses on ICT for play school. So, what are the play school children doing with ICT? Those kind of stuff. We cannot even imagine. Yeah, exactly. So, I think that is the basic difference between Europe and us. Okay. And so, what about the application procedure? See, application procedure is very simple. Of course, Europe being still I say 28 countries because UK is still officially part of European Union. So, since it is 28 countries, it will depend on country to country. But on a broad, what are the application processes they are looking at a good degree. But good degree doesn't mean that you have to be a topper. There is very important emphasis on the statement of purpose. Why do you want to do this course? See, I will give you an example. Suppose, I have done my chemistry honors, BSc. Now, I want to do a course on history. Right? So, how can I, in India, you cannot do that. But there, if I explain to them, why am I interested in the history? If I write it very well, I could get admission. Okay. The statement of purpose is very important. For every course, you have to. Yeah, for every course. Then, references from your institution is very important. From your teacher, from a professor, or someone who knows you from the field where you are working upon. That is very important. How many references? Two. Generally, two is fine. Two references is good enough. And initially, for Indian students, if you have been from an English-medium background, you never used to have to take an IELTS examination. But now, few of the universities have made it compulsory. So, you need to get a band of 5.5 or 6, which is where any Indian gets it. And basically, explaining why do you want to do the program. So, they want you to do research on, I want to do this program. Okay, suppose I want to come and go to the department, check the faculty members, see what is the kind of research they have done. And so then, when they read the application, they say, oh, so you have really done a research on us. And so, this is kind of thing. Okay, they want the students to be inquisitive, curious, and you know, research is, I think. Research is not of, lot of weightage is given. Lot of weightage is given on research and quality. That is what itself learning and things. Okay, when does it start the application process? See, generally the course starts in September, October, every year. So, I would advise people to start looking at the application process around November. Because that is the time, one year before. So, one year before in November, because that is the time when the scholarships are announced. That is the time when the course admissions are announced. And it takes nearly 5, 6 good months before you get the whole process done. So, you have to get a student has to… How do they look into this? Where do they… See, again, there are two things. One is that if you are looking at Erasmus plus scholarship, then they have to type Erasmus plus. And the scholarships are announced generally in second week of October. But suppose they are looking at, no, not Erasmus, but I want to go to Denmark, I want to go to Spain. Then every country has got a national agency. Like we have UGC, so there every country has got a national agency. For example, it is called Study in Denmark. Germany is called DAAD. So, you have to visit all these websites. So, all one could do is say go to national agencies of Europe. All the websites will come and then a student can make a choice. So, there are three ways of looking into it. If you go through Erasmus, then your country is not important. If you go into a country, then of course national agencies. And third is a course. I want to do this course. Then you go to a website. For example, studying in Europe. And then you say I want to do medical. They will list all the courses, universities and countries which are offering the program. Okay. And what about Erasmus plus? How do they look for it? Erasmus plus again, you go to the website of Erasmus plus. October second week it is announced. It will take you to a link which is called Erasmus Mundus Joint Masters Degree. E-M-G-M-D. There are about 120 masters program where you can see and you click on the link. It will give you all the information. Which are the partners? Which are the institutions? Where do you have to do? And how do you have to go about it? Yeah. And so many of our students they have this dream, you know, to go and study in Europe. But the thing is they fear about the money, the amount of expenditure that will be involved and the kind of whether scholarships are available or not. So, what about the scholarships? See I have not because I represent the European Union but I should admit Europe is one of the most generous continents which gives maximum scholarships to students all over the world. Even if you look at Erasmus which is just one part of it. We are till date 5000 Indian students have available full scholarship. Full scholarship. Full scholarship that means that means your travel, your stay, insurance, food, everything. Right. So, that one is the Erasmus. That is a big thing. It is huge. It is huge and this is without any advertisement. Okay. We have not advertised. Like see even I, I am also one of those scholars. So, I came to know because I am in education. I was with the British Council. So, they asked me to look at the program and see how, where they should target. So, what I am going to say is the scholarships are available in most of the institutions and secondly, suppose for some reason you do not get the scholarship then you could look into funding from the individual country, individual institutions. They also have. They also have. Yeah. That is the second. And the third course, the most important is that suppose you did not get scholarship at all. Worst case scenario. The fee are very, very low. Like if you look at a top institution in Europe and try to compare with any Indian private institution, the fee will be less. Is the notion people have? Yes. Yes. So, that is again a, that is again very important thing. But we are not selling it because we do not, we want people to come and explore and find out to themselves. So, cost of living of course depends from one country to another again. Few of the countries are cheap. Few of the countries are very costly. Then few of the cities are very cheap. So, it depends. But a student on and all, overall gets best value of money. Most of the Indian students I have seen have managed scholarship somehow or the other or have managed some kind of funding. And if you look at overall the cost of studying, cost of living, it is even if you have to pay in good places, it will be 7 to 10 lakh rupees. Which, which you pay exactly. Yes. Which you will go to any part of the India and go and pay. But you think Europe, you always think it is very costly. It is not that. The only thing is. The only thing is notion actually. We have this notion and there is not lack of awareness about Europe. Yes. We are not aware. Yes. We want to, but we do not know what to do. Yes. What about the, since you have talked about scholarships, like you said that individual countries or the institutions, they also fund. So, we have to write to the institutions directly or. See, see, what, what, how it works is because generally a student knows what kind of course he or she wants to do. Number one. So, once you, once you identify the course, then you go and check which country I am going to go to. Then how Indian students are very much conscious about the ranking of the institutions. Yes. I was about to ask you. So, even, so how do they choose an institution? Sitting in Guwahati. How would you choose? How would you choose? So, Indian students will type for the ranking. Right? Now, when you type for the ranking, so there are about 4, 5 rankings, which are available all across the world. Times higher education ranking, FT ranking, QS ranking. So, people look at these top 200 institutions. You will be surprised about 200, more than 50 percent are Europeans. Right? See, again, if I, if you have asked any person, be from education, he would have said most of them are from US. But I said more than 50 percent are European. So, then you look at the ranking of the institutions and then, so what I have seen is an Indian student, he or she does not go on universities, faculty member, university researchers. They go on the ranking. Yeah, yeah. Right? Exactly. So, ranking is very important for Indian students. Second, for Indian students, generally I have seen a trend that they would look at, if there is someone from the family, someone from a friend who has been to the transition, then they will choose that. Because they will find it familiar. They do not want to go in a foreign, local and unsatisfied. So, that is again very important. So, we cannot generally give a rule. What is, how to go about it? Because students are taking a different steps before they are choosing how to select an institution. So, but overall I would say that, one looks at the application procedure, one looks at the program and English language as such at the master's level today, more than 90 percent of the European institutions are being taught in English, the courses. So, the language barrier will not be there. Yeah. And what about the accommodation? Are they residential? See, most of the foreign students, that Indian students go as a foreign students, get residence in the hall of residence in the university campus. Okay. Though it is slightly costly, but most of the Indian students of foreign students are given a preference. But what happens is that trend is because you have to pay more. After three months, they move to a private accommodation. Because in three months, they know about the area, they find out cheap accommodation. And so, but accommodation is not a problem at all in the European countries, especially where you have this international universities, because the university campuses are very international, wherever they are. Okay. So, they know. For example, in any course which you do in Europe, in any class, minimum you will have 20 nationalities. So, that itself is a learning. See, that kind of learning, you cannot have sitting in a Guwahati campus. Isolated campus. Exactly, yeah. So, because you look at Guwahati, your 80 percent students will be local. 10 to 50 percent will be from outside. I am exaggerating 10 to 20 percent. Whereas, if you go to any institution in Europe, 20 percent will be local or 30 percent. And rest all international. So, that itself is a learning for you. Yeah. Which helps you in later life when you are going into the workspace. And that does not give you the sense of, that fear is not there, because the other people who are coming from different countries are also new to the place. So, you know that. Exactly. That is also new. I am also new. So, and it helps you to acclimatize in the area, because the university, the residence, the local people are used to international students. Yeah. So, they are not being surprised to see you and me. Once we go there, they are used to it. Yeah. So, that is very important. So, they do not get a shock. You do not get a shock. It is an environment very conducive to welcome you. Very amicable. Yeah. And like, since we were talking about education and research, what are the opportunities available for Indian students besides their, you know, the program they have chosen to study? Are there other similar, or can they go for two courses simultaneously or is there a service? See, two courses simultaneously would not be possible, because if you are going, for example, if you are going for masters. So, your major course would be masters. But as I told you, around masters, one could do any extra course they want. And it is all free. Okay. Like as I said, you could do music, you could do psychology, anything. Yeah. So, you have the permission. Yeah. So, you could do any other program which is of interest to you. And the university welcomes that. Okay. Secondly, when you are going to a foreign country, I tell every Indian by default, we know three languages. One is our mother tongue. Second, if Hindi is not your mother tongue, is Hindi. And third is English. So, when you go to country like Europe, you will pick up the foreign language, Italian, French, German, Danish. So, imagine a student, by the time you have come out of your education system, you know four to five languages. So, that is so much welcome today in the corporate world. Suppose you have to go and work for the UNs, the world banks of the world, the multinational companies of the world. And if on your CV, you have a competencies of five languages. What ends? What does he want? True. And like, what about the job market? Like once I go for, suppose I am a student, I go there for higher studies, would I be absorbed in the European job market? See, that is a very, very tricky question. I will tell you that Europe is an aging continent. They need people to come and work. That is the positive thing. Second, we are a young country. So, they need hard working people. Again, we are a hard working, alright. But if a student is joining a program with that intention, that I will join this program. Why? Because I will get a job, then your chances are a bit negative. But once you go and prove your competency, prove your skills on a program, excel on your program. You do very well. You do some extra curricular. 99.9 percent you get a job. I got it in UK. I got it in Denmark. So, believe me, I never wanted a job. See, my friends who wanted a job, never got it. Because they were working from that person. I did not want a job. I wanted to learn. And I wanted to come back. And I am back. And I got the job. I got a green card in Denmark. So, I tell young students, if you really want to stay there, do not keep that in your mind. Focus on your academics. Focus on your learning. Focus on your environment. Focus on the, because see, if you are going to Germany and if you start behaving, talking like German, right. And you learn the language very fast. And you excel in your engineering program. 99.9 percent will be absorbed. There is no, it is a very simple formula. But if I go with this intention, I will go and just for the job purpose, then you would not. So, I think education is very important. What they are learning, it should be hands on. While doing the program, there are a lot of projects which the student does. That is again very important. So, you should do a project, which should be building your portfolio. One does not realize. Like see, when I was doing a project, I did a project. Then I did B. B means it was higher than A. Then C. So, it was a continuous thing, which I did. I did it by myself. Because see, That you have to choose on your own. Of course, that is it. Depends on the student, how many projects he can do. No, no, no. Every paper has a project. Okay. So, now, what you do is, you choose any project. But if a student thinks logically, let us see your master's program after 2 years, you do not become an expert. But if you have done the same project 8 times at a higher level. So, that itself makes you an expert. In that field. So, that is why it tells students you should choose. Do not take one project secretly a second. Do not do that. Try to build on. Build on the thing. So, it is like building your structure of the home. True. So, if you have done it that way, then your chances of and one also needs to understand two things very important. Your interest is important. Because sometimes, if you do things which you are not interested, you will never do it very well. So, a job is something which you love. So, if you choose an industry which you are very passionate about, then you read as much as possible. Do as many attend conferences. And then automatically, you will get the best of the. Because you have your passion. True. And since you are an expert in that field of European higher education. And we would like to know from you which are the countries where there are huge number of Indian students. Or which are the countries which attract Indian students more. Or perhaps, you know. See, if you look at the trend for the last four years, I will tell you because it is relevant to talk about last four years. Germany has been number one. Yes. Followed by France. Then you have Italy, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands. These are the kind of, these are the countries which are attracting lot of Indian students. Yes. And after these, then you have the Scandinavian countries. Denmark, Norway, Sweden has moved up. Finland. Again, but with the Scandinavian countries they do not want big numbers. They only want 2, 3, 4, 5. Right. And then, Germany is about 15,000 plus. Okay. Huge number. Every year. And then you have 15,000 plus every year. Yeah. Oh, that is all. So, it is about Indian students going abroad is about 300,000 every year. That is a huge, huge number. Huge number. Yeah. Because Indian students, as I said, as the awareness is growing, they are realizing instead of going to a local private institute anywhere, I might just pay and go abroad. And then, of course, when they are going abroad, when they come back, the learning is much more. Because see, forget about education. If a student has gone and stayed for two years abroad on her own, cooked, stayed, lived, these are all learning. So, when you come back, you are a different person. Yeah. So, today, today any job, any job, talk about any job, it is a holistic of a personality. You know, you should be knowing how to speak. You should be knowing how to make tea at home. So, if a person is complete, it is a 360 degree. Right? What happens is in Indian homes, what we do is, if a student, Yeah, you know, you compare two family, a child who has been with a parent and a child who has gone to the hostel. You see the difference? Yeah, there is a huge difference. So, now imagine the third child who has gone abroad. Abroad, yeah. Right? So, I am not talking of education, I am not talking of the learning. I am talking of the personality. Personality. So, and today, you know, when you are getting into any job, you know it very well, you have been working. It is not only one job, if you are very good in economics, you do not have to talk to people. You are a failure. Yeah. So, that is why I said. So, I personally, because I have been a product of Indian and European education system, I think it is very important for everyone who gets an opportunity and I tell people, you know, you should try to avail scholarships and go. I am not saying spend your parents hard and money and go because there is so many scholarships that have started blaming them because all of them have mobile. They are 24 by 7. They are chatting Google, Facebook. Then why can't you go and find out? In my time, I could be blamed because I did not have. So, then to find out how do you find? But today, a child knows everything because the world is at your fingertips. Finger tips, yeah, fingertips. And so, it is more like a personality development. It is. Apart from education, yeah. Personality develops. I will tell you, when I went, I could never think on the weekend we could go for a trekking, right. So, friends at my university because Europeans say, oh, what are you doing on the weekend? I say nothing. I thought as an Indian I will wash my clothes, wash, oh, we will do this. Let us go on trek. So, now when you go on trek, you learn so many things. They are, okay, let us bicycle for two days. Again, so these are the kind of things you make friends that come very handy. Like, you know, in education they say tangible benefit, intangible benefit. These are intangible benefits, which helps you a lot, yeah, exactly. Across all the countries probably you have friends. Yeah, yeah, and that is also a big thing, you know, having people. Yeah, today, because today's world, what is important? Social capital. Social capital, networking, yeah, that is very important. For postdocs, or what kind of, see, after masters, again there is a program called European joint doctor program, by Rasmus, that is number one. Then there is Mary Curie, Choruska Curie action, again, for PhD students. Then there is Horizon 2020 for science students. So, the moment you have done your masters, A, in most of the cases, if you have done very well, your professor will absorb you in your PhD program. The moment you are doing your PhD in Europe, you are part of the teaching faculty, right, a PhD student. Yeah, no stipend, salary. Okay. PhD in Europe is a salary. Oh, that's a great news. So, the moment you are doing your PhD in Europe, you are a part of the faculty member, right, and you are given all the facilities which a teaching and you are on the payroll. Okay. Payroll. Yeah. So, you have done your PhD, after PhD, again, postdoc, again. So, system is such that if it's very fluid, if you are working and you are waking, you keep on moving, there is no end to it. True. And that's what I've seen the best part in Europe because as I said, A, because if you look at the teaching community there, look at the professors, look at the researchers, look at young people who are hardworking. And actually, we Indians take that very well because we are young, we are very hardworking and if an Indian comes to know, I work hard, I'll get this, he or she will do that. Yeah. So, that's why we as a community are very much welcomed and it's a very good opportunity for young Indians. I don't say go and stay there. I say, you go, learn, see how they do it, then come back and give to this country. This country needs you more than anyone else. Exactly. Yeah. True. And what about the summer schools and the exchange programs, they have, we often hear about exchange programs to Europe or summer schools in Europe, that also. See, yeah, see that two ways of going about the summer schools and exchange program. Under Erasmus, there's something called the ICM, International Credit Mobility. Under international credit mobility, a student, teaching staff, non-teaching staff, all can go to Europe. So, a student can go from one semester, that is three months up to one year. Teaching staff, non-teaching staff can go from two days up to 60 days. So, that is under international credit mobility. Only thing what you need to do is there has to be an agreement between your institution and the receiving institution. That, for example, Dola will be going on a three month teaching program by the European Union. So, your travel, your salary, everything is paid. So, that's one. Exchange program, again that is between institution to institution. So, in that there is no payment because then your, for example, your students are going to a Spanish university and so, you don't take the fee, they don't take the fees, students have to bear the cost. But again, international credit mobility is very good. Why? Because you are getting paid, you are getting everything is taken care of. Yeah, everything, yeah. How do you want a plan? Again, the call is going to be announced. Erasmus, all calls are announced in second week of October and they are open from October to nearly third week of February every year. So, for example, this year, 2017, 2018 Feb, it will close. Okay. So, you apply on this and once you You have to give the institution in all that? Yeah, there is agreement form which you go and give it to your registrar. Your registrar, for example, for faculty members there is nothing because you are not getting credit. But suppose I am a student at your institution and I want to go to this university. So, and I will be missing six months from here. So, we will be doing this program. We will collect so many credits and that credit is equivalent to your two semesters here. Okay. So, that is the kind of agreement between a registrar to that registrar. So, he doesn't lose his No, no, no, no. Oh, that's great. So, he can just the credit will be transferred. Yeah, yeah, two months or two semesters. What are the credits? What are you doing there? So, if that is agreement is done for students taking care again faculty member you don't need credits but still is much better for even faculty members even for non-teaching staff even they can go. Yeah, they can also the non-teaching staff gets scholarship from two days up to 60 days. So, they can go on a training program. Suppose, for example, in your university I am just getting there is a okay. So, there is a director of international office. Now, that person wants to know how do I take care of international students? They can go on training program. Okay. Yeah, so, the list of the programs are there in the No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and it was it is a privilege for our university and for our guests for the audience who is listening to you to to hear from an expert and to hear from a person who has been himself in Europe for several years in several universities I know it's a great great opportunity for all of us and we really thank you and at the end we would like to hear from you some at least words of advice or you have already your words of wisdom has already enlightened us and still any kind of see my give to us and the students see my advice to the students who want to go study in Europe is that be sincere chase your dream do research on what you want to do just don't think of doing anything make your own plan and believe you me within Europe you'll find a program a course which will be matching your interest and go for it because I personally believe especially for young Indians we are making them put follow a box they need to come out of this they don't have to do a BA history a BA a political science why because the university is offering it if I want to do a course in BA music I want to do BA I don't know sports let me go and find out and Europe has exactly and I think that's the difference between our Indian young Indians and the people from across the world they see look look at students look at all the success stories from us most of them are school dropout right just look at yeah so that means there is something which is our education system change you down right so I would suggest I would tell our students is you know think big be bold you know be strong and just follow your dreams make it a passion and you will be very happy at the end of the day we should all have dreams we should try to fly high be bold and you just pursue our dreams right yeah thank you so much thank you thank you much it was a great opportunity listening to you thank you thank you thank you very much