 Good evening and welcome. I'm Diane Meyerhoff host for tonight's candidate forum for the Democratic primary for Chittenden County assistant judge Tonight show is being aired live on channel 17 and streamed live on the channel 17 website We welcome your comments and questions. Please join the conversation at 8 6 2 3 9 6 6 Candidates joining me tonight are Suzanne Brown Charles Delaney the incumbent Connie Kane Ramsey also the incumbent and Zachary York. Thank you all so much come tonight. We appreciate it The ground rules for tonight's forum are the candidates will make opening statements of up to two minutes each They will then answer prepared questions also for two minutes each with a possible rebuttal We will go in alphabetical order. So for our opening statements We'll start with Suzanne followed by Charles Connie and Zachary So Suzanne tell us why you're running what qualifies you for the position and what your priorities are for the four-year term Thank you Diane. Thank you for hosting this this forum Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Suzanne Brown and I am an attorney I've been practicing family law for over 30 years Primarily in Chittenden County, but as well in other counties I'm also a mother of two sons who I've raised in Vermont and I'm a proud grandmother of Piper and I should tell you that I too have been divorced and have had that experience in Chittenden family court and Understand the stress that people go through especially when it comes down to issues of custody and parent-child contact Assistant judges play a major role in family court as well as in other areas But they do assist the judges in findings of fact Which the judge can then use when doing his or her opinion? I'm also a Rotarian Rotarians believe-in-service above self And I have been president of the Colchester Milton Rotary and have won many awards from my community service I've been on several other boards I've been on a board for Hadassah, and I'm on the board for local synagogue so I'm familiar with budgets and dealing with lots of people Family court is such an important role for people who are going through divorce and parentage cases and I believe that we need knowledgeable and thoughtful people there to assist the judge in making these very important decisions I'm also very well aware of case law and statutes Which change from time to time? It's not a common-sense decision You really should be familiar with the changing Vermont case law to be able to be of assistance to the court so I welcome this debate and Thank you for having me great. Thank you so much, and we are actually going to interrupt our opening statements because we have a call We do we have a call. Hi, you're on the air. Maybe not. Do we have anybody there line one? Well, wait, let's try to try to unhold them. There we are Hi there. Hi there. You're on the air. Do you have a question for the judges? Yeah, yep, you're on the air Hi, I have a question for Suzanne Brown. Okay, we're gonna have we'll have all the question for Suzanne Brown Okay, we'll have all the candidates that I asked for all of this. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Please do that Hello. Yes, I Think we're not it's not no we're not working. Sorry guys. All right. Let's go back where we were Charles opening statement I'm Charles Delaney. I'm your assistant judge in Chittenden County I'm an incumbent. This will be I'm running for my third term. I've been here since about 2010 Part of our job is administrative Maintain the county budget at current levels, which is about around half of 1% We're allowed to go up to 5% Without going to the voters, but I think in terms of being responsible to the taxpayer We've tried to keep a budget intact at times. We've had to find ways to create revenue to do that and With things changing and we're still doing that in the meantime We have kept up on case law We were certified in civil mediation Special court jurisdiction and uncontested divorce We had to go out of state for this to the National Judicial College in order to Do this and I'm proud to say in terms of keeping the public in mind We did it through foundation grants. It didn't cost the taxpayer money being mindful of the administrative part of of this job I've had experience in shepherding bills through the legislature And doing that had to do with a lot of civil right law In 2007 that was done and again in 2010 I Helped write the criteria for tribal recognition in the state of Vermont As chair of the Vermont Commission on Native American Affairs That put me in the purview and work with the committees in the legislature In doing that type of work, I was able to see how laws are passed But really I'm getting the intention of what the lawmakers had behind law in order to do that I also participated in 2014 in the judicial restructuring in the state Okay, I'm gonna stop you there Charles. Thank you. Connie opening statement two minutes, please Okay, thank you for having us Diane and we're happy to be here. I'm happy to be here So I am running for my third term for assistant judge I'm the co-assistant judge with judge and Laney and we've had eight years with only positive feedback For me and for him as well. I was I think it's very important to have family and local experience in this job. We spent a lot of time in family court and So I was born and raised here and I know the community well When the judges rotate, they are not familiar with the area necessarily so Assistant judges are the local connection to the area and I think it's I have two kids Polly and tagger and they I raised him my husband Jack and So I've got that family experience and then When judges Kali and Krakowsky retired in 2010 I decided to run and They helped me to Get this job and other people helped me and it's been going well and since then I've got eight years experience in the judiciary sitting in family court civil court and maintaining our civil court properties To the county properties eight years of training by the different State of Vermont and judicial judicial judicial judicial judicial college at Vermont and national judicial college Dedicated helping our community's families There's a lot of vulnerable people out there and they wind up in court because they can't afford Their homes and they can't afford the cause of living just keeps going up and they can't figure out ways to increase their income and I'm also dedicated to make sure and make sure the people Who are being abused are protected? Okay, the court stop you there. Thank you Zachary. Tell us opening statements, please My name is Zachary York Democratic candidate for county assistant judge. I was also recently nominated by the Progressive County Committee For the general election. I was born in California and I lived in central Vermont where I grew up in Montpelier Barrie and Cabot I graduated from spalding high school and then I went to Burlington College And I graduated with a bachelor's in legal and justice studies and a certificate of paralegal studies. I Learned under a lot of local attorneys during that time adjunct professors are primarily practitioners. So I learned with Many people who are experts in their field and I feel like that was a great education And that's when I first learned about assistant judges because part of my family law course was to sit in on Really from abuse cases to learn about how that system worked and the system is actually becoming more and more overwhelmed To a lesser extent these stalking and sexual assault cases in the civil division are also having an increase I believe that my training in College my training in you know general pursuit of education in the rest of my life and my experience has really let me To be an excellent candidate for this position. What's great about this really unique Vermont position is that? You get to be a layperson judge. You don't have to be a lawyer You can sit in on cases and not make a judge based on make a judgment based on the facts It's to me based on the law, but you make a judgment based on the facts So whose case is more persuasive which affidavits are you know more informative? What is the most compelling evidence? So that's especially true in cases where there's disputed facts So one side has an affidavit saying these are the list of things that are true and the other side has an affidavit saying We disagree with those this is the list of things that are true and when they have to have a hearing on those It's it's essentially who has the most plausible case And I feel like with what I've learned and what I've grown up with I would be an excellent candidate to do this Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you all We're going to go into our prepared questions again There'll be two minute responses and don't forget. We'd love you to call in 8 6 2 3 9 6 6 So tell us what I wouldn't start off with Charles will have you be the first person What's your approach to running an efficient and effective county courthouse because we've learned that is part of the job of of this assistant judge And how do you evaluate your results? If you're talking about the administrative end first that would be We come up with yearly budgets for the different departments and I have to say that you know it seems to be a rigorous process and doing that It's an uneventful affair really We get maybe three four phone calls from the different town clerks Wanted to know if the budget's gone up or not so that they can prepare their town budgets In that sense, it's pretty cut and dry in terms of the maintenance Maintaining a budget it takes four of us to sign checks and pay the bills So, you know, it's a good balance in terms of knowing the bills are paid. How much is paid? Following the budget, there's there's no play in that since there's four people and all those sets of eyes looking at it in terms of the courtroom itself I Feel that it's a traditional role in the state of Vermont Since day one we're in the state Constitution It was designed for lay people and the reason for that was was that? They wanted a person from the community who knew the local officials who knew people in the community To be able to have a better understanding when people came to court. What what was going on? And to be able to be an ally in that sense for them We discern the facts in certain roles such as relief of abuse orders There comes a degree of preponderance in it also and And knowing that our community I think we have an edgy a more educated sense of what's going on and We all have to agree on the facts before a state judge can make a legal decision so I think you know and looking at it that way it's like a small jury and It creates another form of balance the state of Vermont is unique almost unique in this There might be one other state that has such a role in doing it the reason why the forefathers? Wanted lay people to do this job Was because they had a distrust first of the king and the prosecutor and Then in early state government and federal government there was mistrust I'm gonna have to stop you there. Sorry. You can tell us in the next question Okay, we are talking about running an efficient and effective county courthouse. Connie you're up. Thank you It's been running well for eight years We like judge of the lane was saying we we work where we we work up a county budget. We ask The sheriff's department and the probate department and we look around the courthouse and see what we need to do for the Year and we stick to that budget really well and we hire good people to Work for us. We've got Anne Williams as a county clerk and Christopher Daner her as the buildings and grounds Contractor and then we hire John levy as a county treasurer and we do a lot of deli delegating We give them goals and we let them do their thing We had last some of the last goals were to make the courthouse more friendly so he painted the walls and put up some interesting stories for people to read and Made the passport office kid friendly And we of course the the the main thing we have to do is make sure that the that the courtroom is working well The lights are working and the heat is working and all that so and We are very good at keeping to the budget. I'll say that When the checks are written there are four of us have to sign off on them so that there's no Problem with that and All of our citizen and professional input has been positive over the past eight years. So things are going well Thank you. Zachary. Tell us. How would you run an efficient and the effective county courthouse? Sure, so it all begins with the the building itself a lot of it has to do with the county buildings proper So that is the sheriff's office Which needs some work and then there's the county court itself, which is on Main Street in Burlington It's a big beautiful federal building that was then given to the county government many years ago And in my opinion a lot of it has to do with ensuring upkeep of the buildings we have very old buildings that need You know preventative maintenance and and maintenance that we we plan in advance for To make sure that you know, there are no unexpected surprises, you know when it costs Thousands of dollars to run the air conditioning every month. You want to make sure that everything's going to be working ahead of time It's also important to make sure that the the county sheriff has everything they need So is the building up to code? Do they have enough space for all their vehicles? You know the the county deals with hundreds of thousands of dollars going to the sheriff's office and is it being spent adequately? So I feel like my my education my experience would lend me to be a good judge of how those funds are being spent and If there's a better way to allocate them Okay, great. Thanks Suzanne. Well, I'm going to answer this question from a different viewpoint We all understand that there has to be courthouse and other buildings that are up to code and bills paid and I don't feel but I'm sure that we can learn about the budget and so on but what's really important is there's not enough time To handle all of these cases in family court Family court is being overrun by people who for many reasons don't have attorneys Or maybe they can't afford attorneys and so they're trying to do their own cases and it takes a lot longer For that person to present their case if they're capable of doing it Then if they had an attorney, how do we address the overage of cases in family court right now? I think we need to do some training I think that it would be great if we had the Chittenden bar once a month Volunteer and go staff a clinic or an informational session That is open to the public if they are going to be in family court so that they can learn some important things About what is important in a custody case? What's important and I believe from abuse case. What do you need? If we have more educated consumers, I think it would help decide those cases number two What about for the attorneys who are trying these cases? Well there's a thing called a case summary form and I have used this many times myself as an attorney handling all these types of cases I would not need any training if I had this position But rather than having a protruded three or four-day trial you can have attorneys Fill out these forms on different issues They're presented to the judge to read a few days before the date and then you meet with the judge and The assistant judges and you get what's called a weather report Now unfortunately for some reason it seems that the court is no use no longer using these case manager forms So if they were to these case summary forms if they were able to do that You will find that more cases will settle and resolve just thus freeing up more time for the court Stop you there. Thank you. We have a question I'm and I think we'll dive since we're this is perfect timing actually so on what kind of relationship Should assistant judges have with unions does it imply a bias if an assistant judge or Candidate endorses a union Okay, and we are going to start with Connie Well, I'm I have to be very careful. I wouldn't I wouldn't be in the union because That that's bias And you they have to be very Careful to not be biased in this job I don't know what else to say but that we were not allowed to Even endorse I can't endorse a candidate. I can't give money to a candidate except for a fellow assistant judge I can't Go to a rally. I can't do anything As an assistant judge. That's one of the problems. I have with being an assistant judge It's one of the I love being an assistant judge But that is one thing that I have to have had to live with Could you can't do anything like that? It's in the cannons. Okay, exactly So I feel like this question is coming for me because I'm a proud union steward and I'm on the legislative council for my union I've been a member of the VSE a the Vermont State Employees Association for several years Well, not several but a few years at this point and I don't think there's a problem I don't think there's a problem at all Being an assistant judge candidate does not lend me to not be in my role as a lawful Political activity. So, you know, I I certainly think that it is perfectly acceptable for me to be in a union position. I Consults numerous different articles to govern my activity including the union contract Which I have bargained for and fought for and I will continue to defend for my co-workers Suzanne well once you become an assistant judge, you're not allowed you're not had I Know once you become an assistant judge You're not practicing in any other position. That is your full-time job from my understanding If I were to have this position be elected to it I would stop my my legal practice and devote my full-time to this job and I'm not aware of How a union impacts at all How the cases are tried and the decisions are made. So that's my opinion on that Okay, Charles Union activity As assistant judges lay judges, we are still under the same canons as the state judges and I would imagine anybody who's running for this position would fall under such rules, too. I We can't endorse unions. We can't endorse institutions candidates for other positions Those things are reserved Probably for other candidates and other types of positions If a case came in front of me be it a union case I would have to and I took a stand before that I would either have to recuse myself or not be involved with it to to begin with not to show in proper court and I think that we have to be Mindful of this position whether we're running for it or whether we're sitting in it now not to show bias That's part of the canons that I have to follow It's not a matter of personal opinion about what I think about an institution or a union But if cases come in front of us, we have to be show an improper Judgment and we can impugn the court Once that's done then there's then there could be appeals and a like So in order to do our job We have to steer clear of these things and keep our opinions to ourself Okay, thank you and thanks for the caller or if the question came from I just add something We can do everybody can have another minute. Sure. Just to clarify I've I've been a union steward and on the legislative council at a pride for my I am co-workers that have pride for my job at a pride of being a state employee and if Being a judicial candidate and a judicial officer conflicts with that. Obviously, I would step down I am well aware of what you need to recuse yourself with when you are in a situation as a judicial officer if you are a relative of one of the parties and in a certain extent or if you have a Prior relationship with one of the parties for an example one of the judges I work with he informed the parties in a case that 20 years ago he represented one of the parties a corporation was that a problem with anyone in the courtroom and It wasn't so that the hearing continued. So I'm well aware of Being a judicial officer means recusing yourself from things you would have a conflict with and I would be prepared to do that Okay, Suzanne. Do you want another minute? Oh, no, thank you. I do Well the Charles first another minute or no pass. Okay Um well, I think it's great that you're doing the work for the unions, but the canon state that you're not supposed to show bias in any way and most people would would Resign before and it announcing their candidacy so Anyway, that's what I think like we can recuse yourself, but It's still shows bias. Okay. Let's move on Do you support the use of mediation as a way to resolve disputes outside of the courtroom and we're gonna start with Suzanne you're gonna start. Yes. Well several years ago the Judges were given the authority to order This is the main judge to order mediation in cases and And Quite frankly, I think mediation is a good idea in certain situations it seems to work very well in parent-child contact cases and in custody cases you can take all of the antagonism and The problems that the two parties are having together and take it out of the situation Have them meet with someone who knows Certain family law principles and have them discuss more kindly what they believe is in the best interests of the children So and I personally have mediated and have had my clients go to mediation There are however some cases that are not necessarily good for mediation in my opinion And that has to do with the issues of financial support, which is called spousal support. I have found that typically When women are asking for spousal support or seeking spousal support because they don't have Earning significantly to support themselves that they don't fare as well in mediation as they would in court So I don't advise Clients to mediate that type of issue There is one thing you should be careful though However, if there is a relief from abduse situation where one party is intimidating the other party and And they feel they can't represent themselves well and they're intimidated that is not a good case for mediation Okay, great. Thanks, and Charles talking about mediation So of July 1st 2017 state judges were allowed to suggest mediation for certain cases I think mediation generally is a good idea because it empowers the people involved To come up with their own decisions For their own conflicts as opposed to a state judge saying this is the decision It allows input real input by the people involved On the county level we got certificates in in civil mediation and so did the assistant judges in Franklin County We had a bill In place so that one suggestion was was that maybe they could go down to the hall and Discuss and agree to mediation and to try and facilitate that Another bill that was done was H 849 Which is to help alleviate the burden of all the other court cases that we have For assistant judges to do status conferences Reset family motion Hearings those things and it's been difficult Mainly from the state level and from the attorneys because they don't they see it as a power struggle between Lay judges and state judges when in fact we could really help people Who can't afford attorneys who have a hard time in court not understanding the process? We can be there for them if we're allowed to and this is something that will continue to work with and make these changes as As we go forward great. Thank you Connie use of mediation. I love mediation as a way to have families Solve the disputes. It's much better to have them work things out on their own and You know to put through compromise and all of that instead of having the court impose restrictions on them If they can work it out themselves then it's much better to For them to follow they've had some input into it and the court system is really a last resort So we have started in the past year We can actually order people to go to mediation and then if they still can't work things out Or they can work out most of their problems and then and then they can come back to court for the last few things But hopefully they can work it out all because court should really be a last resort and not anything further and Like Charlie a judge Elena was saying we did go to Reno and get 40 hours of mediation training So we don't use that because that also is against the canons, but It's nice to know how to do it anyways because it teaches you how to talk to people and It's useful, so thank you. Okay. Thanks Zachary use of mediation So I believe that Mediation is incredibly important especially in civil cases Oftentimes what's happening is local attorneys are just emailing back and forth and they've never actually met each other We have quite the saturation of attorneys in Chinden County, which it could be a blessing But also has you know attorneys who never really interact so getting people face-to-face with a mediator is actually very useful I for the past few years have been in charge of the foreclosure and landlord-tenant dockets at the judiciary in the civil court and I Have been referring cases to foreclosure mediation that whole time law changed a couple of years ago after the financial crisis where people if they're the primary If it's their primary residence, they're entitled to request foreclosure mediation And if they don't request it initially they can request it later even up until after a judgment order issue So it's really a fantastic system. I couldn't speak more highly of the Vermont bar Association, which coordinates the mediation service with us and The attorneys who are mediators do really wonderful work it saves a lot of people's homes and it saves a lot of people a lot of heartache and I couldn't endorse it more Well have a response Doing this job for 30 years. I know that nine out of the ten cases that a lawyer has and Typically are settled If the lawyers were to try every single case that they had it would be impossible to get court time So we have this small percentage of cases that for whatever reason The attorneys with their clients try to work on an agreement and they're not able to do that for some reason I Find that when the clients know What the factors are that are important let's say in a custody decision then they can go and mediate and Understand how to make their case so to speak to the mediator The mediator is not there to inform the clients of their rights or of the law The mediator is there to get the parties to agree So there takes a lot of preparation many times for these parties to go to mediation And I've had many successful results where I thought the parents would never agree Let's say to a shared custody agreement and the mediator was able to pull it off, but I want people to understand that You really can't mediate without knowing the important legal statutory requirements That would affect a custody or relocation case and if you mediate without knowing that you're really hurting yourself Okay, Charles. Do you want to say something further about that? Yeah To me it's not About necessarily a technical aspect of the law. It's about the understanding of how people feel What they feel that they have to gain or what they feel that they're going to lose and To be able to address that directly with people So that they are comfortable enough to talk about that in a setting towards resolution of a situation Most people especially the ones without attorneys, they're not thinking about the law They're thinking about how can I get through this? How can I keep my home? How can I keep my child? those types of things and Yes, there's a financial aspect to that But to have people understand that you know you can do this come up with your own decisions if you're able to mediate it A mediator is basically to me as an organized referee and To be able to make both parties feel comfortable enough to be able to at least discuss their point of view about it and to come to a resolution So that they can have a stipulation and come to court and say we agree on it The judges sign off on it, and it's a beginning not just an ending for people, but a new beginning And if we can do that for people, it's the best resolution possible Connie I just have a little story about that There was a mediation case, and they could decide everything Except for who got the family dog and so the judge Katz it was judge Katz he said okay, who wants the family dog and who has the children and Children were children were with the mother and the fit the father wanted the family dog He goes okay You go talk to your client and tell him that he needs to call his son and tell him that He cannot the dog is not coming home tonight And so he went and told his client that and came back and he said we have an agreement So it's a little Anyway that was I thought that was nice story Okay, one sec. We're just gonna like Zachary have a chance at a further rebuttal of this Just to add that one of the other things that the civil division does is In complex cases that require a lot of discovery Which is the parties gaining information from each other before the trial happens? They fill out these forms called alternative dispute resolution Reports they're called ADR reports and what they do is they set out a timeline for when discovery will be completed When when motions that would dispose of the case for one side or the other would be filed and when the trial ready date would be and They also have a time for when mediation would be completed and I think this is just a great practice I I'm very happy that the mediation statute is the way it is and I think it should continue. I Just want to make a point if I may sure that just because And I'm and I'm really gearing this towards family court. I've seen this many times. I Just want to get get my case over with I just want to get out. I can't take this stress Just because the parties have an agreement doesn't mean that the agreement is fair and equitable and in fact the judges have a legal duty to review agreements to make sure they are fair and equitable and Let me tell you I have seen some judges and in some in some points are not you that's the system judges but prior system judges actually say I Reviewed this agreement. I don't think it's fair And they have not accepted the agreement and they sent the parties back to either get some legal advice or to Renegotiate so to speak an agreement on its face. Does it make things fair and reasonable? Yeah, I mean most state judges on occasion will send it back But as assistant judges, you know, this is where we've come in We don't argue these things in front of people on from the bench Usually sometimes we have some very interesting conversations in the chambers about these things about what is equitable about what is fair Is this the right thing to do as? opposed to what the legal terms are in it and At times, you know, we've had vocal arguments This is the reason why assistant judges are there If two assistant judges disagree we can overrule the state judge and they cannot make a legal finding on it and That happens on occasion not all the time But the the chambers and these conversations do persist Part of our job too is is that we do read the dockets. We do read the stipulations We do understand that who the parties are involved and what's at stake and we take that Looking at them as people about what is the best possible outcome not just for them usually there's children involved and In spite of the arguments that the parents the adults are having what is the best outcome for the children? You know, these are the real stakes Connie I was gonna bring that up, too the best thing is that the children is kind of our mantra and That's what I would be most concerned with and I think most mediators know that They would only accept a Negotiate of something that was in the best interest of the children Hopefully and maybe once in a while something squeaks through but that needs to be tweaked a little bit But I think mediation is wonderful. I really I think it's great and When people can work out their own problems and set their own visitation schedules, it works out better for everybody exactly I'm a child of a divorced household, so I'm well aware of relief from abuse cases and domestic divorce cases so just from the child's perspective, I definitely got an education in that when I was very young I Thankfully was treated very well by the courts. I was treated very well by both parents and Everything is very good now, but I think the the family division is one of the most difficult divisions to work in because it is the most personal of I think it is one of the most personal at the very least because it is Someone who you are blood with who is now wrong doing some horrible way and how do we move past this in an equitable banner and I Believe my my experience would be helpful Thank you We've actually talked about pretty much all the questions. I think at this point, but I'm going to ask them anyway We'll go back over them We talked about some people cannot afford attorneys especially in domestic cases such as divorces and Issues with children How how can you help people better? Represent themselves and I know we've talked about mediation for sure. So that's when we have there But are there other things that that you could imagine doing in your four-year term? And I also I wanted to be clear too before I ask that question is that there are two seats We have four candidates in two seats So you will vote for two boxes when you go to the polls because that sometimes that's not always completely clear for folks So I'll make sure that people know that we're not running against a probate judge and you're not that's tomorrow night We're going to talk to probate judges. Some people think that we're running against Greg Glennon and yeah Yeah, so we have two separate. We have the assistant Chittenden County judges and then we have the probate judges and there's only I think one probe one probate judge or two There's one. Okay, so there's two you guys and one of the other Okay, so just so we have that clear for everyone for everyone was watching Okay, so we are going to start with Charles. Tell us how you think we can help people better represent themselves There there are some other institutions out there, they're you know from our law line Such organizations that can be helpful I think that there's also training that can be involved in Relief of abuse cases as an example. There's a step program It's called they used to be women helping battered women before that they come to court on Thursdays in family court and Sometimes show up on Wednesdays in civil court stalking cases and Their experience some experience of just being in the courtroom and seeing is helpful to the clients involved I do think it would be further if they did get help from the Chittenden Bar Association They are not their advocates in terms of the sense of being there for the person in the court So they're not steamrolled so that they're not fearful but to have a better idea of what the The idea and the intent is behind this would be most informative for these people To me this is a vacuous Thing, what do you tell somebody who doesn't have an attorney who has just a basic idea of what their right is? Most people want to be heard in court And if they feel like they're stifled or they weren't able to get their side of the story out I think that's a failure of the court system And I think that you know anything that we can do To help people feel more secure in themselves and in their own rights as a person a human being To come forward to be able to say these things in in the courtroom would be most helpful Because it's not always what said it's what isn't said Okay, Connie how we can help people better represent themselves um what I try to Help them by at the pre-trial conference Some people will think they don't know the rules of evidence and they'll think that they can enter a letter or something like that and I'll make sure that they know not always I don't always tell them But I pass a note to the presiding judge that They can't you know they have to have the person there to testify they can't just Suzanne knows what I'm talking about They can't just bring the letter in that some Could be that's hearsay could be from anybody The other thing is I if they're at the pre-trial conference make sure that they know What the what the threshold is like if they want to change their visitation schedule or they want to move and Bring their children with them. They need to prove a Real and unsus un Forseen change of circumstance And they don't know that sometimes and that's what they need to prove before they can change anything so I'd like to see if I can make sure that they get all the information they need and It's on the website maybe If they did a little homework, they'd be better off, but a lot of people don't even have computers. They're you know So anyways, I try to help them in any way I can Okay, Zachary how to help people represent themselves better So the thing I can draw on the first is in my time with a judiciary I've run the landlord tenant docket, which is a Very quick paste docket where you have landlords who haven't been paid rent in months And you have tenants who either couldn't pay or the place was inhabitable so they haven't paid One thing that a state judge did was she sent out a letter to the bar And she said we want to have people come in and have a clinic we have all these renaissance cases It's the it's the most likely hearing for these people to show up at Why don't we have members of the bar come in with members from Vermont legal aid law line Vermont volunteer lawyer project to sit in on these 10 15 minute hearings and advise the Litigants of what is happening what this means if they fail to abide by the escrow case And what the you know ramifications would be they also argue if the litigant says, you know This place had bugs and it was mold and it didn't have any heat if it wasn't habitable Then they don't need to pay rent for it. There are there there are statues that govern this So I couldn't commend this was judge Helen tour who did this I couldn't commend her any more for starting this program She recently started it up in Rutland County a few months ago Addison County before that I Don't see why we can't have a program like that for relief from abuse cases not necessarily representing them in court proper But maybe having a clinic ahead of time right now They have a video system where you go in and you sit in you watch a video explaining the proceedings explaining Who who the judges and what what each side does and you also have advocates there? Which is very helpful, but why why can't we have an extra step? I think we can do more Okay, and Suzanne here's a novel idea that hasn't been tried and shit and in court And it's been tried in Franklin family Franklin family court And I'm sure there's other courts that have done this with regard to families problems. There's so many people who cannot afford an attorney and What if we had a Reach out to the bar to the attorneys to say we would like to get volunteers To come once a month from a set period of time To talk to people who are having some cases in family court and try to give them some general advice Try to answer their questions. This is done in Franklin family court, and it's a very effective program Why it's not in shittin in family court. I don't know it's not in the Bylaws of what an assistant judge should do but certainly we're not precluded from Suggesting this type of program and reaching out to the bar I'm a strong proponent of that. I've done a lot of cases pro bono meaning that I'm not charging I've also given free consultations to people so that they can help themselves in court if possible And I'm reaching out to the bar here to say step up Try to help some more people who don't have an attorney and give them some advice because these are the most important decisions of their life custody contact finances and That is my idea Thank you. We are we've got a time for a quick one more question, and then we'll do closing comments so I'll give you about a minute and This is yet another activity of a side judge is the participate in setting the budget for the sheriff's department So tell us should that continue to be a job of the side judges or not and we're gonna start with Connie Okay, well we've been doing it ever since I've been there and the sheriff is a county entity and we house them we pay for their Department building and we pay for their training and we pay for their heat and all that And I think it's appropriate because they do good work for us and they protect us and they do prisoner transport and I think it's only right for us to support them in some way They got other money from the state and they did have contracts. So it's not just us. I give them money We don't give them very much money I mean, it's just a small part of our budget, but we do get them some money Okay, and we have a question from the audience. So we'll take a quick break here and please so I was at a Political gathering a county candidate gathering a And the only the two can the two incumbents were there And they were speaking about their job and it was fairly well received and then the probate judge mentioned that he sits in cases with them and was very happy with the performance and lawyer in presence Also sort of mentioned the same thing from the other side. So I guess specifically for the two challengers maybe What was the impetus and what do you think you bring to the table? That's not there already in this position and maybe sort of the same question for the Incumbents, so what do you bring to the table? That's not there already great. Thanks. I'm exactly want to start with you for a minute Please sure so I am like I said I graduated with the bachelors and legal and justice studies and a certificate of paralegal studies so I have a lot of experience with Reading the law. I understand this is not a law reading position, but I would certainly bring that Perspective I think more than anything I don't think I have anything bad to say about anyone on the stage. I wish them all well I just think I am an excellent candidate for this position I think I would be good at it and I think I would enjoy it. I You know do what you love kind of thing I couldn't think of something that would interest me more every single day So in my current work, I read affidavits. I read motions. I read motions for summary judgment, etc And I have to figure out what we do with them and when they're ripe and What happens next and it's only logical to me to also then go into the judicial capacity Why not? This is something that I can do without going into Tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars and additional student loan debt and it's a way I can serve my community and I would really enjoy it. Thank you. Thank you Zachary Suzanne you're next well I guess I have the most legal experience or experience in court And that's where this job is at. It's in court I do practice other areas besides family love, but that has been my primary focus and I didn't go to law school the conventional way I have a master's degree in education and I and I've done various other jobs besides being a lawyer but I found that This is a great way to help people and Unfortunately, I have seen Cases where perhaps the outcome or the decision was not fair was not equitable was not correct But the parties don't have enough or the I party doesn't have enough money to appeal it To the higher court and so they are so called They have to abide by that decision I don't think knowledge of the law hurts a person in doing this job I think it helps a person understand all the different parameters that you have to look at and In asking questions of these witnesses and of the parties to get to the prime issue What should be done for a parent-child context schedule? I'm gonna stop you there Charles You know this position traditionally and was made for lay people The candidates running, you know, they're learned people But it was also life experience Put into this and it was exactly that To come up with fair ideas of what is fair as an example that was brought up parent-child contact parental rights and responsibilities You know, these are things that we deal with day in and day out It's not just the the law that's involved. It is you know a preponderance What would be best in this situation? That's why we're there That's the job that we do. We try to be a more human aspect to a courtroom setting which is all about the law and procedure and That's that's why we are there Thanks, Connie. I think what the Questioner was alluding to is that everything is going well and why change it? So I agree with that. I think things are going well and If you like you get somebody that they don't get along with The two assistant judges have to get along Rouser's trouble. Historically, it's been very bad thing and We get along. We're very different people, but we work it out We see things from different points of view sometimes, but you know, it works. It works very well and There's no really reason to change. I think we should just keep it the way it is and It's we've gotten such we've gotten glowing reports from everybody that we work with that the courtroom people the lawyers the judges Everybody's happy with our performance. So I think we should keep things as they are. Okay. Thank you We have another question from the audience And I wanted to know is You know, how you feel with your legal experience as an attorney Your experience is important for this position How do you feel it's important for this position? Well, I would like to tell the audience listening that there have been other lawyers who served as Assistant judges and have done the job well and knowing how to Get certain points across to make your case clear to negotiate These are all things that I have done in my 30 years of legal experience and quite frankly There's always room for improvement and there's always room to try some new and different things. I Too have been supported by many of the judges and my clients Saying gee, I'm so happy with your with your services. Have you ever thought of Doing something and becoming an assistant judge or a judge. So While I respect the jobs that the incumbents have done it can be better Okay, I think we're going to talk about the importance of legal experience for the job Charles. I Think the legal experience if we're talking strictly about that, you know came from my life experience. I Shepherded a couple of bills to the legislature. I was not elected. I was appointed Chair of a state commission on Native American Affairs 2007 it was s1 17 that we shepherded through and it had to do creating Abinakis as the original minority that way they were they could receive federal Indian education and health monies That was a start of that Later on in 2010 s222 Which we came up with a criteria for tribal recognition which ended a an argument about who an Abinaki was on the state level between people and On the tribal level in terms of membership It ended all that all these arguments and there was a lot of racial arguments that came and involved in that from the greater public and it ended these arguments and It was a way to go forward in a positive manner and in dealing with these things, you know That's why I came back home Chittenden County Was able to do this on a family court level and in civil court And I and I'm doing the same things today Practically in working with a smaller group of people judges Court administration and the rest of it. I wish that they would allow us to do more when I've suggested The bills and then include land landlord tenants also They they they wonder why assistant judges want this kind of power. It's not power If we can assist the state judges And doing these things in a courtroom setting the clerical work that gives state judges more time to write Their findings we are overwhelmed there Connie and the question was Who's about the importance of legal education experience in this work? Oh, yeah Well that can sometimes be a problem in 1994 assistant judge was elected and she was a lawyer and The term starts in February, so it was 1995. She started in February 1st And within a month there was a petition from all the assistant judges all across Vermont to have her removed I don't know what she did, but I don't saying that will happen with you But within a year she was gone She had to resign because of the Supreme Court ended up getting involved and all of that It can be if you can take your judge your lawyer head off and Just just sick to the facts then I think it would be work out, but that might be hard to do sometimes Anyways That's what I have to say about that. We'll come back if you want let's go to Zachary. I Think legal education in this position is important, but it's as the Constitution states It's it's not necessarily requirement The the assistant judges are in the statute. They're in the Constitution as layperson judges So it's I think it's valuable. It can only be an asset I'm not aware of what happened in 1994 with that assistant judge, but I Find it difficult to not have a Benefit from having someone who has some legal education on the bench in this layperson position I'm well aware of there have been you know 28 assistant judges in the state currently and I'm not sure how many of them are lawyers But I believe the majority of them are laypersons and if there were issues Then I'm sure it would come to light I don't really have anything else to add to that. I suppose I'll give you a half a minute Imagine that knowing what factors go into making a custody decision Wouldn't help in helping to Figure out what facts need to be brought up to reach that threshold I've received a lot of encouragement and praise from many judges whom I appear before because I've done so many difficult and contested cases and If it was common sense You wouldn't have laws. You wouldn't have statutes. You wouldn't have case law it's more than common sense and We are there to help make this process perhaps less emotional a little bit smoother a little bit more efficient and I am certainly proud of my my many years of legal experience Plus having used the system myself and going through a divorce. Thank you Okay, great. Well, I'm unfortunately we don't have time for closing arguments. I'm closing statements. Sorry. I've got the lawyer thing going I apologize for that, but we had questions for the audience and phone. That's that's great I'm really glad that folks are able to call and we really appreciate your calling in Want to remind everyone you can vote now vote early at your Municipal or a city or town hall or on primary day, which is Tuesday August 14th And again, thank you all so much for joining us tonight and thank you