 Hello and welcome to the Circular Metabolism podcast. This podcast is hosted by the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism held by Aristides de Tannassiades and Stefan Kanpermann at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. In this podcast, we talk with researchers, policymakers and different practitioners to unravel the complex aspects of what makes urban metabolism and economies more circular. This podcast is produced by the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism at the Université Libre de Bruxelles held by Aristides de Tannassiades and Stefan Kanpermann. In this podcast, we discuss with researchers, administrators and practitioners to clarify the different aspects that make the economy and metabolism of our cities more circular. In this seventh episode of the Circular Metabolism podcast, we received our colleague Jean-Baptiste Baers during his visit to Bruxelles to talk to us about the territorialization of the circular economy. Jean-Baptiste is currently in charge of CNRS research in the laboratory and space and society of the University of Nantes. He is also a member of the Rédaction of the Flu Review Committee. His doctoral thesis was carried out in 2012 on the dynamics of the recycling and territorial ecology subsidiaries in Midi-Pérénée. Since 2013, he has been a researcher in environmental and territorial ecology at the Rennes Environmental and Environmental Business School and has been responsible for the pedagogical of the specialized master's degree in circular economy. The first reason why I wanted to invite Jean-Baptiste on the podcast was to talk about territorial ecology, a discipline made in France. It is a scientific field that analyzes systemically the material and immaterial aspects of the territories proposed, among others, by Sabine Barle and Nicolas Buclet. This discipline is located in the continuity of the social ecology of Vienne and is distinguished from the industrial ecology, as it is heard in France, and which is often summarized by the symbiosis between companies. This means that territorial ecology is as interested in the flow as much as the social and territorial consequences of these flows. The novelty of this discipline, however, is that it targets the territories, and especially the urban territories. This novelty allows us to go beyond the simple quantitative exercise of territorial metabolism, where only the system is studied, and not because it exists inside and beyond this one. In other words, the first interest in this territorialization is to make a spatial differentiation within a city to identify the drivers or the motor of consumption. The second interest is the taking into account of the externalization of metabolism, so those who are on the side of our territory, but who are not really visible. The second reason for this invitation is because Jean Baptiste had been the external evaluator of the first two years of the regional program of the Brussels circular economy. Although it is a rather difficult exercise of the first approach, it is clear that the program had a good diversity of actions that caused quite a lot of trouble. According to him, the program presented some dead angles, particularly from a point of view of evaluation and indicators on the evolution of consumption, their recycling, the addition to stock, but also the externalization. For example, how to evolve the efficiency of the different circular economy initiatives, multiplying on the territories. For the small and new initiatives, you have to be careful not to judge them only on the term of flows, because it will always be marginal. But if there is no effect on the flows, what is good? So it is a quite complex question, which is difficult today to answer in a certain way, but it is clear that the circular economy must not only respond to the criteria of economic development. On the contrary, it would first be necessary to greatly reduce our consumption before trying to use the circular economy to loop the rest of the flows on our territories. We finish our discussion by addressing the question of the role of researchers in the quest for circularity and by asking ourselves what synergies can and must exist with other actors. Take advantage of this episode and do not forget to go to our website circularmetabolism.com for the rest of our productions. To help us improve our podcast and take advantage of the next episodes, subscribe to your favorite app such as YouTube, iTunes, Spotify or Stitcher. And do not hesitate to leave us a comment. Welcome to Brussels. Thank you. You come from Nancy to try to see what's going on with us. And we will talk soon. You also had a critical look on the regional program of Brussels's circular economy. But maybe it would be good to see what your look is and how you built this type of look. You have a background of industrial ecology, territorial ecology, urban metabolism. I don't know what characterizes the best. And how in France we sail in these other troubles. Let's say that in France, to come back to these subjects, I would say that the scientific field is rather that of territorial ecology which wants a systemic understanding material and material of the territories. Samine Barley and Nicolas Buclé have proposed this field a little bit in the continuity of social ecology of Vienna and urban ecology. And also a little bit in the idea of dissociating from the notion of industrial ecology as applied in France, that is to say really very focused on the synergies between companies. The problem a little bit of the tradition of industrial ecology, as the scientific field well stabilized Anglo-Saxon in France, we have lost a lot of things. And that is essentially focused on these issues of synergies, of substitution, of use, of waste between companies. And so the researchers have made these sessions of this idea to build another field more territorialized, more urban too, which is also interested both in the flow than in the environmental and social consequences of the circulation of these flows. So I'm going to write a little more in this presentation. But there you already mentioned two little things that are interesting. You already consider that our Anglo-Saxon colleagues offer other perspectives also in the field of industrial ecology. Yes, I think that the field is rather vast and it is enough to look at what is done in their great conference on industrial ecology. There are as many themes of consumption and sustainable production and industrial or industrial synergies are a part of these things. However, it is true that you were right to mention when we talk about territorial ecology in France, it is also the idea that it can not only be centered on the flow engineering. Maybe it is a little the criticism we can make on the Anglo-Saxon scientific field of the industrial ecology, very techno-centered. And territorial ecology in France also wants to be a little more extended to the human-social-social process. And to have a look on everything that also goes a little beyond the materiality and which is rather on the question of governance, of organization as a tractor, that kind of thing. And all this is something that you have agreed to define territorial ecology in relation to that, because is it the same thing or not that the urban metabolism is instead of replacing urban by territorial, is it the same thing or how do we to create a discipline or how is it when you are a university professor when you are a little behind a few PhD students it's easier to create a scientific field of this type. I talked about it and then it's true that there was a network of researchers who knew each other in different places, different worlds and so that's how the subject emerged. I think we all realized the same thing that industrial ecology, as it was applied in France, was too reductive to the simple exchange between an economic actor. So especially when we come from the management of the territory of colleagues, we can't be happy with that vision. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that it's true that it also takes up the notion of urban metabolism and territorial metabolism are at the heart of this field. It's true that I make a distinction between the scientific field that will regroup different things and the associated concepts and the associated tools in which I will put and so what are the... I imagine that as it's quite new as a discipline as an approach there is still a lot to become there is still a lot of reinterpretation you have already had several territories where you have already studied several, either different flows or different territories. A comparative study where we begin to consolidate this field or this discipline? Yes, you're right. It's true that it's also by multiplying the cases of studies, we are in cross-strait view on what is done in different territories also, in different, let's say, typology of the territory. Because a work that is important is done on the metabolism of Oswa which is a very rural community. We work on urban communities but not on megalopoles like Rehen, Le Mans or, for example, Nantes in any case, what concerns France and so what we can call these regional metropoles have really very, very different contexts of a megalopole like Paris where studies have already been pushed by urban metabolism in a very deep way or in other rural territories. To talk about cities that I know it's quite singular in the sense that there is still what we observe when we count the flows and when we look at it in terms of acting governance, there is still a relative proximity between these metropoles and their surrounding territories quite close in any case to what concerns some. In terms of provisioning, in any case, for the large flows in particular, construction metals and minerals, biomass, food or others on these things. For other flows, such as fossil fuels or manufacturing products, these files, no matter where we talk are already extremely globalized. But in any case, for these large biomass flows and construction metals, provisioning is in a regional part in a more globalized part but in any case, there are production capacities because there are rural environments. It is a bit what we call the relations between cities and countryside which are still not preserved as in the 19th century but which are still present. And is it because in your case you are talking about the Atlantic Loire of Brittany because there is agriculture there we can say that, can we do the same the same comparison to another territory I don't know, in other regions in France or in other cities it is really the size of the cities and therefore their metropolitan footprint reduces, which makes the interlocking really reduced. Yes, you are right, it is true that the geographic context that I am talking about, Brittany and Edouard already there is a very present agriculture and there are also construction metals, especially carriers that have existed for a long time it is true that if we transposed I don't know, in the valley of the Rhône it would be more complicated but in other regional metropolises or smaller, I think other in the southwest there are probably quite similar things in any case in relations between territory of consumption because cities are just territory of consumption, we must not slur the idea that we can do, that it is circular at the scale of an oil is completely impossible but at the regional city scale what is called the UNEP, the regional city scale and so what for example in France is a bit the idea of metropolis with regional departments there are relations we will say quite consistent between these territories of production which are also sometimes of waste territories which will receive a certain amount of waste and their territory of clean consumption let's talk about it because you often use the term territorialization of the urban metropolis or the term territorialization of the flows or of the stakes what I find is missing today in what we call the urban metropolis once we passed the first stage of quantification and what do we do thanks to these studies and I think that the territorialization allows us to really have to deconstruct certain false ideas primarily, that is to say that when we talk about consumption it is not everyone it is this person and this person who consumes and then it is certain places when there is an industry that is going to consume let's say such a percentage of something and that we have to want to do as many solutions as we want if this industry says no we call it the bone so how do we what can we learn thanks to this territorialization and how can we go beyond the simple just quantitative aspect yes, already you are right the constant is that in these studies of urban metropolis we sometimes remain at a system scale we look at NISC which is inside NISC which is at the edge of the system the first is to make a little bit of the spatial differentiation within a city to try to see if there are particular drivers of consumption and so it is the case clearly at the district leaders there are big differences of consumption of flow and what interests me most is the second floor, it is a little bit what is done at the edge of the system in fact it is all that is going to be concerned what is called the externalization of the metabolists on the side and we don't see it well and we say to ourselves it's going to come out and it doesn't matter what happens afterwards and so these relations between interlands, cities and consumption territories they are quite complex it's not just like a certain researcher could say the theory of urban generalization that is to say the city consumes everything governs everything and controls everything the rural and rural territories also have their own strategy sometimes in a logic of competitiveness but also in a logic of differentiation of heterogeneity that gives them a place to have very interesting dynamics but suddenly these territories which are a little victim of the city around around them whether they are prisoners in a city sandwich or just a city that is really responsible for a lot of things compared to their flow and their operation do we have to start thinking again about governance systems if this territory doesn't want to deal with this city and knowing that the interland is globalized for some flows to have fossil energies for other for the electronic waste plastic a little less today China said we stop with the import of plastic waste there we are talking about other scales so let's say at the scale of the region we can say ok it may be possible there is a certain governance that can be put in place what is this governance still remains if I have opened and how do we still take care of other scales what would push what is the direction yes it is complicated at the scale of the region cities we can say that there is not much going on especially because the territorial scales of the public policies are badly adapted either we do the economic plan at the scale of the city all that is on the side or the economic plan of the region it is just to find a sense of enforcement dangerous waste and so we feel that we are looking for a territory somewhere a little bit more beautiful of the city so there is not a shared governance and we could call to be more inter-territorial that is to say to mix a little more the relations between territories and maybe go to an inter-terrestrial convergence so that's already something that is important at least at this scale to rethink in France, for example, we think about territorial food plans which seems to be a good idea but once again the scale is too tight and it does not allow to really focus on consumption in any case, where and by the way and focus on how to reduce consumption because it is still a bridge that we forget when we talk about urban metabolism and circular economy we forget these strategies which would aim to de-consume or de-materialize the filières on the longest term and so that's something that is not at all still heard in public power so little by little we will come and for the large world-wide filières it is very complicated especially since there is the first matter that influences a lot on structuring even in France I do a lot of maintenance often one of the first one of the first variables is the cost of the first matter that is decided in London and which according to a declaration in China can completely vary in an extremely important way so it is true that we will still rather force towards relocation of a certain amount of activity especially because China has decided to go from an industrial economy to another thing even if we see that it is not very far from home but maybe it also forces the professional actors to relocate in their territory which is not a bad thing even if it is very hard there are many companies especially in terms of de-consume that are closed but it may give a second breath to this structure so it does not necessarily mean that we have to as others reopen industrial mines in France there is still all this discourse now that we hear that is a bit scary but at least relocate a certain amount of activity maybe we make sure that it is more de-materialized more de-industrialized but which is a more de-fluid loop so now we are talking about an economic planning of a territory and which is obviously it is hard to hear when we talk about de-industrialized not all types of industries but still de-industrialized at the level of competitiveness it is not what is most selling and you spoke after about de-consumption or de-croissance it is not something of very selling so it is a bit hard to know how we are going from something promising and sexy which is the circular economy which is a lot today for large groups or start-ups so you have the two extremes of huge efficiency and good ideas but it does not mix too much with something more at the level of cities because first of all in Reine in Brussels, we do not necessarily have the capacity to welcome in parishes a large industrial center which will be able to re-valorize some flows so we will have to do this or it is something else that will have to ... Yes, it is not what I say it is a big industrial center but rather try to rethink the territorial layout of small facilities it is more about what I work on and especially you said it there are a lot of initiatives that complain about the circular economy that is why we may not be able to cross as quickly on this concept because there are a lot of positive things that emerge with logic really of reduction of matter reduction of consumption, prevention so it is still interesting there is a bit of a nebulous kind of activity which also records the social and solidarity economy often which has the capacity clearly to re-lock a certain amount of flow or even to be a real force of proposition in the provisioning of building materials of biomass and while sensitizing to more of deconsumption decontamination decontamination so there is something which for me is more seller as you say even if it is still a little delicate but in any case I think it is a more promising perspective than a very powerful industrial regroupment near the cities which seems a little far away from what we can imagine But there you are already talking about of the circular economy which is the one of more work than more efficiency because in the end it is less efficient the social and solidarity economy is not there to be efficient it is there to employ and more regenerative it is true that it is a word that we hear more and more which I think will percolate because it is an interesting term which regenerates capacity, production, flow curative or valorization which are there, we can see the idea of ​​making more value on a scale economy clearly it is sure there is a bit of current quite opposite for now we will see who is going to win it is him who will have the most infrastructure I think that's what I expect with all the myriad of initiatives is that they develop ideas until when we have something viable and then it is the company who is going and you will tell me why not, I am not against big, small, there is not at all a price it is rather what is the logic behind what is the goal and so we can not be wrong and what is the real encroachment in the territory but we have turned a lot around this question and I think that I would like to see that you have had we had the opportunity that you look more critically regional program of circular economy around all these questions that we have addressed when you read this program when you read these first two years what are your first impressions and in what direction do you have to possibly go or change it is already a difficult exercise it is a very good criticism because it is already good that already nothing like that hat what I read is that I have seen a lot of initiatives in a lot of different sectors and so I feel that the diversity is really exhaustive and present a lot of things on employment issues, field structure issues sectoral issues logistics, construction, food so I really see all the boxes are next it is very interesting what I saw is the question to which type of efficiency we are going to and so it is true that we are going back to the studies of metabolism who serve this to develop a number of indicators that will show what is really the efficiency of a program on the material plan of recycling, on the plan of what is called stock addition on the plan of externalization also because it is a little easy to externalize a whole of polluting and industrial activities and say we have a very good metabolism compared to others so we have to compare whether it is comparable and it is perhaps a risk of this notion and maybe it is true of indicators to really show where we are all the time accepting not to master all the parameters clearly everything does not depend of a region especially when we know the circulation of the globalized flows as it is but in any case to give itself a little bit like that of large indicators with some objectives in the optics to reduce its consumption or at least limit the stock addition because it is also a gangrene in the cities to store more and more materials for what to do it is quite not transparent and to loop the flows when it is necessary and where it is necessary I think you have put the point on something super interesting which is this uncertainty and all the parameters that we are not we can not change much and I think that the cities still have trouble to position themselves that is to say they say it is outside of my jurisdiction territory I can not do much, it is the same thing in Brussels the region is quite limited in space and the metropolis on the edges of this administrative region so they say well we can not do that is already hard and then there is also a certainty that is to say that today we have been quantified a few years ago in the metabolism of Brussels in large trends and in large flows but the initiatives remain localized and sometimes very innovative where we have no data sometimes too innovative and suddenly we do not know where they are now in a few years they say well and what how do I know if I'm going to the circular or not, have you seen an evolution or thanks to the writings or your actions you say well yeah we can go to the most circular or then you have to double the efforts in this direction or the other direction there are some criteria that we can omit it's true that the question of weak signs is it overestimated, is it not it's always a bit difficult, we can not evaluate something that starts on the surface of the flows because obviously it will seem hyper-marginal so there we go to the side of something of course but on the other hand if there is no effect on the circulation of the flows what good, if it's just to do economic development what good, I'm not sure that we really need the economic so that's it, it's true that a certain amount of criteria to see things advance without it being marketing because there are many things around marketing we install our little technical innovation that manages 5% of the flow that we always put forward and 95% are managed in an installation we will say a little a little on which we communicate less so it's still often what we see in a whole bunch of rows and so there is maybe something too try to see a little, try to balance between these two things but there I have no answer obviously all done, it's for sure you have a little as you say identified a little some weaknesses of an exercise to become more circular we are sure that we will have weaknesses it's normal, it's a way too big 4 years ago do you have recommendations that you remember or things that hit you in 10 years it's enough or are there things obvious to put in place to become more circular for example to know a little bit the plan of the Nantes Metropolis there are 3 axes around food around small material objects and around construction materials for example we realized that Nantes Metropolis had large infrastructural projects but did not have the knowledge of the flows they were going to generate of the necessary provision it's even the knowledge is not solid enough and so for example we would say simply look on urban projects the sequences in a way re-employed a certain amount of material because we know that in situ it is possible for a part but it is complicated for another with transit platforms for other urban projects it's quite envisaged it requires a lot more work clearly for the services because it means that everything must be balanced that there must be a typology of the materials so there we are a little in this phase we are faced with all this with all the complexities to put in place this kind of the typology of the materials the companies that will really register in this approach avoiding those who just want to take advantage of it the question also simply to how to say to talk about the skills of the city they do not have all the skills even in terms of obligations in terms of territorial collectivity and then they do not have the subjects maybe not so well and there is also simply the public asset side where I do not know how it works in Belgium but the calls are great in France and so we can not do what we want we can not privilege a local company we can not privilege a type of treatment all that remains of the free market so it is difficult the constraints more circular variables in terms of management there is still a lot of work, a lot of things I think we covered a lot of questions just to finish so how what is the role of science or what is the role of us researchers in this quest of circularity what is critical can we also be an actor yes it is difficult sometimes I feel like I'm a little schizophrenic sometimes we are really in the critical observation especially when for example we manipulate flow data we are on databases that date a little and so that for the partners it always seems quite surprising when we talk about 2015 while they are almost 2020 for the time being it allows me to have perspectives that we can look at in the middle so that's something for which they are a little in the tent after that this positioning in terms of a critical observer and then evaluator is quite difficult to have and in addition without talking about the fact that we lack of time anyway to do it and when we ask sometimes things that are quite far but we still try it's true that there is a role like the public partners the private ones also have a role to play so everyone must try to stay a little in its giron of competence thank you