 Welcome back. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa, a former Deputy Senate President Ike Iqwerimaru alongside his wife, Beatrice Waneka Iqwerimaru, who have been denied bail and remanded in custody by United Kingdom Court of allegations bordering on organ trafficking. It was early reported that the UK Metropolitan Police, the London Metropolitan Police in particular, formally charged Iqwerimaru and his wife with conspiracy to facilitate the travel of another person for organ harvesting in the United Kingdom. Iqwerimaru and his wife were arrested and charged over their plan to bring a child into the United Kingdom to allegedly harvest the said child's organ. The charges involve arranging and facilitating end of facilitating the travel of another person with a view to exploitation, namely organ harvesting according to Metropolitan Police statement released yesterday Thursday. The victim whose travel was facilitated to the UK by the suspects was said to be a homeless 15-year-old boy picked from the streets of Lagos under false pritons, the statement added that the investigation was launched after detectives were led to potential offenses under the modern slavery legislation in May 2022. The British Broadcasting Corporation reported that when the suspects appeared at the Oxbridge Magistrates Court in West London on Thursday and were asked by the clerk for their address, they both replied, Nigeria. The Iqwerimaru's who were arrested two days ago have since then been remanded in custody to appear at the same court next month, specifically on the 7th of July. The suspects were arrested at Heathrow Airport on their way to Istanbul, Turkey, reports claim they were planning to procure a kidney from a donor in Turkey after the initial plan had failed. Now, we have joining us a lawyer, Justice Huwibu, who will provide some much-needed analysis on this developing story. Mr. Huwibu, thanks for your time. How does someone who is a, you know, a ranking senator has been in the National Assembly for years, you know, spanning almost two decades, if not more, someone who was called to the bar, Nigerian bar in 1987, someone who has a degree and a master's degree in law, someone who has a PhD in law. How does someone like that, who has his own law chambers where it's principal in the law chambers named after him, commit such an error, a blunder, or an alleged crime? Barista, can you hear me please? All right. We have lost our guest, Justice Huwibu, who's a lawyer. We'll get back to him as soon as we can. I'm sure you can understand the network sometimes. No, he's a friend. But I was seeking to understand from the learned gentlemen, like they call themselves, how someone who was called to the Nigerian bar in 1987, someone who has a law degree, who has a master's in law, who has a PhD in law, who has a, who is a principal at a chamber, a legal chamber, or a law chamber named after him, and who has been in the National Assembly, a ranking senator, and who is also a former deputy Senate president to find himself in such a situation, because of course, you don't see fire in walking to it. You don't also expect that somebody who is aware of the legal provisions in Nigeria and different parts of the world, at least globally recognized the conventions and all that, will find themselves in this kind of situation. So that is what I was seeking to understand. I'm sure it's quite a shock to many that someone so evidently qualified and respected with such a standing in society will find himself in this situation, not saying that he is guilty or has committed a crime, but finds himself. So that's why I'm using that particular description. Because first of all, the trial is not a conviction. And we're hoping that the trial, when the trial starts, all the facts would actually be brought together. And if he's found guilty, then he would be made to face the law. A lot of persons have expressed the fact that the reason they're very hopeful, this is not the Nigerian system. They have expressed a lot of faith in the British judicial system. And then there's hope. So if he's guilty, he will face the law. If he's not guilty, he would be all right. But some of the concerns that you have raised is, I mean, he's very learned. He's very exposed. He should understand. He should know better. It's that we sometimes do not understand the workings of the law. And there are some things that are very applicable. There might be universal standards for some basic issues. But in a system where you have things not done properly, we seem to have a very big issue with respecting the law, the constitution, even at the party level. It's just a big deal. As simple and as easy as respecting the traffic law, it's a big deal. And so you probably would just, you have the same behavior and character. And then moving over to another climb where things, where you have a system that's very functional and very efficient. And then you think that that might just be the case. And you know, you might be taking, so the things that you probably think that don't mean anything to you, because there are some things that are very basic. Now humans, if you look at the laws in the United Kingdom, first of all, what he's going to be facing, we're looking at the modern act of 2015, modern slavery act of 2015. And if he falls all of that, then it becomes an issue at the end of the day. So what we're being told, I'm not sure if we have a guess now. So we're still trying to get back to a guess. But there's a normal, there's usually a haste for Nigerians to take sides in such matters in which politicians are involved because, of course, for obvious reasons, people are not happy. So looking at the mood of the nation and the comments by most Nigerians in the media, radio stations, TV stations, you have social media, most of them have already passed a judgment on a KQM model. Some are saying, karma is at work, that politicians have not fixed the health sector in the country. And this is as good as happening to him the next time she should fix the health sector. But I mean, I think it's too early to jump to conclusions. We've had a bit of from the Daily Mail, Daily Mail of the UK have put out an article where they gave us the words, the statement by the lawyer to a KQM model and then also the lawyer to his wife, one Neka, a KQM model. She, who the lady representing her, put the word out as well, saying that they have never and will never be part of human trafficking. They've never been part of that and they've never brought anyone to the UK for organ harvesting. That took some time to try to understand why they used the word organ harvesting because, of course, in different parts of the world, including the UK, you're able to donate an organ to someone who is in need. In fact, recently in the UK, they had to come up with new laws, with new laws, they have what we call the opt out option in the UK, which simply means that because of the new laws, they state that if you're 18 and above, when you die, your organs could be donated to somebody who is alive, who is in need. So, for instance, your liver, for instance, your kidney, for instance, your heart. If you die, your organs by the laws of the United Kingdom can be given to someone who is alive. Now, the opt out law or opt out option rather says that you don't need to sit back and allow your family members to decide what should be done with your organs. Maybe when they approach by the government, if they want to say no, or they want to say yes, you know, approach by the health authorities, you should actually take your decision. You can go on the NHS website and you can actually click whether you want your organs to be donated when you die or not. So it's called the opt out option. So, I mean, for people to really understand why someone has to be taken from Nigeria to the UK to donate their kidney, of course, the National Health Service is sort of a welfare-based health program set up by the United Kingdom, the government, for the people there. You don't need to pay for health. It's what do you call it again, a welfare scheme. There's a particular thing I'm trying to look for. I think I'll call it social security of sorts. You know, the latest figures, if you check out what the National Health Service is saying, in the case that, I mean, last year the BBC put out a report that it had about 7,000 people who were on the waiting list. It's a big issue when you talk about the waiting list, waiting list. You hear them talking, you listen to their radio stations and stuff. You hear them talking about waiting lists. People who have chronic diseases who are waiting for a transplant may have to even pass on and not get one. As of today, in the United Kingdom, you have more than 6,000 people who are on the waiting list, as are today. You have more than 6,000 people who are on the waiting list who cannot... And it takes, typically, sometimes three years. I think, sorry, the average time it takes is three and a half years. But what they're saying is that it could be more or it could be less. So what we have now, if you permit me to just make that point, is you have, as we speak today, you have 6,414 people who are on the waiting list for a transplant in the UK. Between April 2022 and June 17, 2022, you have 834 people who received the transplant. So it shows how it is a dire situation to the point of government, how to change the rules to say, if you die, your organs can be donated to someone. But you have to take the choice now if you want to opt out. No, so I think that as much as we're also saying that it's important, we know that Nigerians have been very reactive with this issue. Already, what you want to say is that the case is already in public court, and so there probably might just be public trial and media trial. But we're saying, let's not be very hesitant in jumping into conclusion. The facts will be there. In different countries, you have laws that varies. And so that's the issue right now. What's obtainable in a certain country might not be obtainable in another country, but also bringing it to some things that are very basic. We're talking about universal standards and principle now. When you talk about the issue of human being and child trafficking, it's a universal thing at the end of the day. So I'm hoping that when eventually the trial starts, of course, the spin and adjoinment and everything has been denied, July the 7th, there will be hearing for that particular case. It would be looking at this legal practitioner, it would be looking at the issue of intention here. What's the intention? What are the procedures? These are ideas. We'll understand that these are dynamics. But like you mentioned, it's very fundamental that you understand what's applicable in another country. There's always the spiral that they say that if you have a hand or foul gets replaced, you have to take a step first and observe what's going on before you begin to take some kind of action. So it's important that people understand that laws varies in different countries, but there are some basic laws that are very universal. You need to understand that before you understand. So if you also look at the letter that's been made very public, the letter that was put out asking for application of visa, because there's also another thing that's very critical in all of this, and we're hoping that we get the answer. It's the fact that number one, the police there, is saying that you have the age, age 15. The boy is 15 years old. And on the other hand, there's also a report from this other side saying he's 21. These are issues that are very, very contending. They're issues that need a lot of answer. So how did the police in the United Kingdom arrive at 15 and he's saying he's 21? Now, looking at that letter as well, you would also see a letter. The letter talks about investigating. Investigating, there's going to be some investigation of a donor. I mean, investigate kidney donor or an organ, something like that. I can't go through. Okay, let's see if I can just go through the letter now. Not necessarily the way it is. Yes, this is where E.K. Kweramadu, you know, got it. So I have the letter in front of me. It says I'm writing this in support. It has the Senator E.K. Kweramadu letter head at Pepper. And of course his name and all of the things that you want to see. His date had 28 of, 28, am I saying clearly, 28 of? December 2021. And he says I'm writing in support of visa application made by Mr. Upo David, who is currently having medical investigation for kidney donation to Miss Sonia E.K. Kweramadu. I stay with that first investigation. Now, I think that that's the reason why I have a lot of Nigerians saying, hey, if we fix it, do you even have to, you know, go because at the end of the day, according to the reports and story that we have available, is that the, the kidney didn't match. There wasn't really a match. And that's why he was on transit, you know, to get another donor. But the big question would be, it gets back to the number one question that you have asked, is that should you need to travel to carry out this investigation? Don't we have what he takes in Nigeria to find out if, you know, the kidney actually match? So you need that to, you know, make that journey first outside of Nigeria to go find out. So if he did that within Nigeria, maybe all of this will probably have been, you know, in this particular space and all of that. Yes. But that's an important question. Before we move on to some other aspect of this, it's, it's, it's good that this letter was leaked. I'll be interested in knowing who leaked this letter out. But it was leaked to the to the public and it's in the public space. You can see that indeed, Senator E.K. Kweramadu wrote to the UK visa authorities asking for a visa for Mr. Uqbo and Waminidh David, who is currently having medical investigations for kidney donation to Miss Sonia Kweramadu. Who is Kweramadu's daughter? David and Sonia will be at the Royal Hospital of London, and I will be providing the necessary funding. You know, so it was clear the man didn't hide anything. He was clear. But the reason. So the question is coming up and, you know, one could ask why did Kweramadu have to state all these things in the letter? You know, so the reason why he has to. I'm not a medical doctor, but if you had one, I'm sure they'll say that sometimes you have to have the the recipient of the organ together with the the the he talks about investigation. You see the thought. I'm going somewhere to get out of the donor so they can test to see as much that you can see that he said there was an investigation going on in Nigeria to determine the suitability. Where is that? To determine the match. It's on that. It's on the paper on the page there. All right. So those those medical that medical investigation is what he was talking about currently having a medical investigation. Now, of course, it maybe it could be suspected that Sonya was already in the UK receiving her medical attention. The Kweramadu's have a house as it was had before the court in Oxbridge. The magistrate's court in Oxbridge in somewhere in North London, a place called Middlesome, I think is the name. So they have a house there. So so so it it maybe we don't know a lot about this, but it's possible that Sonya was was receiving medical attention in the UK. I mean, it's not far fetched and it's easy to understand that you may want to have the person who is donating the organ somewhere near the person who is receiving the organ. I would be surprised if they they wearing sure that this guy was a match because those medical investigations going on in Nigeria should help. But but but the reason why Kweramadu had to state all things is all these is that there is there is a visa. You know, it the information is really available on the UK government website. There's a visa called the UK standard vis-ta-visa that can be used to go to the United Kingdom for business purposes. You want to visit on business. You want to visit for study. You want to visit as an academic. And also when you want to visit for medical reasons. Now, one of the the things that you can visit the UK as a standard vis-ta on as a standard vis-ta for medical reasons will be to donate an organ. All right. They have three reasons. The number one is to have a private medical treatment at a hospital or other medical facility, which is what a president does. Number two to have what I think he does anyway. Number two is to have a treatment at an NHS hospital. And the third one is to donate an organ to a family member or close friend. Now, this includes being assessed for suitability as a donor match. So you can actually travel, get a visa, apply for a visa, not just to go and donate, but also to travel to go there to see if both of you match. You will be given a visa for that. You'll be given a visa for that. But it helps strict rules. What they say is that you must, you must, you must be a member of a recipient's family. All right. They say you can only visit the UK to donate organs to a family member who you're genetically related to, for example, your sibling or your parent. B, someone who you have close personal relationship with, for instance, your partner or your friend. All right. So these things exist because a lot of people are asking, why didn't they get the donation from UK? They have a shortage up there. And then secondly, you have this visa, which is available. So the man had to probably state that on the letter so that they could understand the kind of visa they're applying for. I'm told we have a guest back on the line. Justice Uhuebu is a lawyer. Good morning to you, Justice. And great to have you back. Hello, Justice Uhuebu. Can you hear me, please? All right. All right. Since he apologized for that, we'll try and reconnect with him. So there's this possibility, mercy, to have this apply for this visa. So I'm sure that's why he had to. And it's clearly stated on the UK government website that you can get that visa, not just to go donate an organ, but to go test for suitability. You understand? So it's not a surprise that he had to state that. But also, there are criteria. The person must be someone who you've had a close personal relationship with, or a family member, genetically. You know, I mean, that can be stated. We know what happens. But why are they here? Just to make another point, sorry, mercy. Why are they looking out for things like this? The United Kingdom, the people and the government, they are really big on forced organ extractions because of the shortage in the UK. A lot of British citizens, some of them, let me say, have to travel to China and other countries to get organ transplants. Now, the United Kingdom has been a very, very, very concern that you have what we call forced organ harvesting because, I mean, we have to look at also the difference between organ harvesting and organ donation, all right? So if it's forcefully taken from you, you know, then of course it's no longer donation. Nobody can say that you donated something that you didn't easily or willingly give, you know? So they now came up to say, OK, forced organ harvesting is something we don't want in our country. We have information from people in China that some of them who are prisoners of conscience have their organs forcefully taken from them to be given to people who need them. And there are citizens that are traveling from the UK because of the long waiting list and the expense that you'd have to incur if you're going for private care that some citizens are going to China to get transplants. Now, we don't want our citizens to go to China to get organ transplants if it's possible that those organs were forcefully taken from people without their consent. Yes, yes, the consent. So you have forced organ harvesting. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago, not less than 40 MPs in the British Parliament had to, you know, support a bill to the effect that such what we call organ tourism should be should be banned. And this year, a bill was passed into law. The UK's health and care bill was passed into law. A new piece of legislation that was said to prevent or will prevent, expect to prevent British nationals from traveling abroad to receive an organ transplant. They want to make sure that whoever receives a transplant abroad got it for someone from someone who willingly gave it. It's like, for instance, having a a T-shirt company, maybe a UK business that manufactures T-shirts in Taiwan or Bangladesh or Vietnam. And then they get to hear that they're using child labour. You know, they don't want, you know, their business to be associated with that. I mean, that's why that's why that's why I'm saying that the a lot of faith has been expressed in the judicial system of, you know, the United Kingdom. And everyone is expected that it's going to be as a fair system. There's a lot of trust has been expressed as much as a lot of persons are already jumping into conclusion and, you know, trying to go ahead with giving ruling and judgment just before the trial. It's already, you know, you have a case already. But the point here is this, a lot of persons have queried. And the issue is, if we had, you know, a system where we're able to sort out what we have, we're able to, if you look at the letter that's been made public, that letter that he wrote to the British Embassy or commission, if you want to say, talking about investigating. There's nothing wrong. I mean, I don't think that anybody will be talking about the issue of having. Yes, mercy, sorry to interrupt you. I'm told we have our guest back on the line. Justice Huerbu, can you hear us? Hello, Justice Huerbu, are you there, please? Can you hear us? Fortunately, we can't have lost contact with our guest. So, mercy, this is quite an interesting one. And fortunately, our guest is having some some issues with his connection, but we'll try very best to see if we can we can do that. So the question has been about, you know, investigating. So it was very obvious that the process and which will a lot of persons have said legal practitioners, you want to have people saying that the intention would also be looked at. These are factors that will be considered during the hearing. But we don't want to be very jumpy about it. The issue is the intentions of the parties will be looked at. That's number one. And secondly, you would also be looking at the issue of, you know, the procedure. These are very critical issues. The laws actually varies and fingers across and we're hoping that justice would actually be met at whichever way. Not onto the other hand is the fact that people, Nigerians are already saying, hey, if we had a medical system, you know, sorted out, if we had faith in the medical, you know, structure that we have an institution, then we would not even have any reason to always want to go out. That's because it was very certain with that letter that he wasn't true. It wasn't going to be a donor. It was also going to be like, hey, we're just going to have a kidney donation, this person is going to be having a kidney donation. It was an investigation to ensure that there's a match. Unfortunately, according to the reports, you know, it feels like the donor wasn't really a match, but a lot of it. It's a concern. I mean, that's what happens when you have a system that functions. So the developed client, you know, you have structures, you have laws and things are not done as you should think. But we're hoping that the facts will be actually brought out. Fingers are very crossed. And let's see how all of this pans out. We're also asking everyone, you know, to relax and allow, you know, these professionals, I mean, the the law itself, the judicial system to do its job without we jumping into conclusions, because the facts would actually be brought out and let's not be very hasty with public judgment on this particular case. But we live to the point I was trying to make very important before we go is that, you know, all these things that we're saying is to help people understand what's going on and why, you know, this is wrong. Also, the questions on the minds of members of the public out there. But the point I was trying to make was that they it is wrong to take an organ from somebody who does not voluntarily give it and their statistics showing that is a growing business and trade in the world. We've had people who have reported in Nigeria that they were almost abducted. I think last month there was a story from a lady in Port Hackett who said she had this one chance experience, or we call one chance in Nigeria, where she was almost kidnapped in a bus. You know, they'll tell you it's only one seat left. That's what they call one chance, you know, on the streets in this part of the world. And you get into the bus and then you abducted. She managed to escape. But she said they pointed a gun at her, opened a cooler and showed her body parts, you know, and said, if she moves, they'll shoot her, is what she said. So we've had we've had response, you know, experiences like this. It was in 2017, former Nigerian Aviation Minister Femiq Faniqaydi said, you know, in the height of this whole slavery thing in Libya of blacks, he said that most of them have killed and they have the organs exported to countries like China. So it's interesting to see if the UK authorities are really, really concerned about the morality of their citizens paying their way to places like China, spending their own money to take care of themselves and get transplants. They don't need to be the ones who who extracted these organs illegally. But they just do not want there to be any complicity of any nature. So if you look at that, now imagine having someone trafficked allegedly from Nigeria to the United Kingdom, which means that they were taken there under false pretenses or against their will or without their consent or that appearance allegedly suspect, suspectedly. And then secondly, apart from trafficking, suspected intention or intent to harvest organs as a second one. This happening on their soul, they are going to frown at it very, very seriously. This is a serious case and nobody can can talk them out of this. Definitely, it's not going to happen. But we need to be aware of what's happening in the world. Also, the fact that even if we have the health system working in Nigeria, it will still wouldn't make it right to to to harvest people's organs. So that's not even the case. I mean, we're just looking at the issues now, like you've rightly mentioned. That's not the point. We're not saying that we're very in the know that a lot of you know, organ harvesting is going on in the world. I mean, I'm sure that you're very also conversant with a trend of in Zimbabwe where people are taking out their toes and selling it off. So all of these things I know. We're just saying that if you look at the reactions of Nigerians, you have mentioned the Nigerians have been very critical and saying, oh, if we have the medical sector, which is very key. I mean, let's even look at it. How many times have we had that the president of the United Kingdom came to Nigeria for some medical treatment? How many times have you had that members of the parliament here in Nigeria or here, anybody coming to Nigeria to seek medical treatment? If you look at the letter, the pointers, could we or could he have avoided the situation? If you say you're going to have a kidney transplant, he wasn't very sure. It was going to be an investigation. That's what the letter says. And we're just being very careful. So we don't jump into the case. I mean, we're not lawyers. We have the judicial system already. They will actually follow due process. And the reason why Bill was not granted was because it involves different countries. And so this would actually allow, you know, for the entire process. And this is what a lot of people are seeing. A system that actually works, a system that respects procedures and, you know, respect the law and things that are applicable. And that's what exactly what it is. You know, the issue that is very universal and basic is that lives will be protected. Humanity is number one. And when you also look at the issue of the age that you saw, you have on the one hand, because following the news and the reports, you have the United Kingdom media reporting 15 years old. And on the other hand, you're hearing is a 21 year old whose report do we then believe? Let's not understand that at 15, you're still looking at this child as a minor. They don't have any right to give consent to whatever it is. And so should they have someone who would actually give all of that? But this is not actually our duty. That's the much we can take at this point in time. Mostly before you go, I think it's a very important point you've raised and since we're here to enlighten people, just give me a second or two to say this, that it's a question that a lot of people have asked, you know, about the age and everything. Now, look at the provisions. I mean, the NHS website is very rich and anyone can go there and check it out. They asked, we have explainers for everything. So the question is asked, you know, as far as life, organ donation is concerned, we have to live organ donation and donation from people who have passed on. They ask, is there an age limit to becoming a donor? So the age, each of the age really doesn't come to play in terms of whether the age is a factor in determining guilt or not. But really the the consent, like you said, now there's no age limit according to NHS to be an organ donor. The decision about whether some organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is always made by medical specialists, but children can donate, but it has to be no more on consent. Also, they may need to go to the court to get approval, you know. So we'll get more details, like you said, as time goes on. But we have to move on. We'll be back after this break to talk some more right here on Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Stay with us.