 103.9 FM, W-O-Z-O Radio, Knoxville. Ladies and gentlemen, Digital Freethought Radio Hour. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour on W-O-Z-O Radio, 103.9 LP, FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Sunday, March 21st, Sunday, I'm sorry, 2020. I'm Larry Rhodes, or a Doubter 5, and as usual we have our co-host Wombat on the line with us. Hello Wombat. Winter isn't coming anymore, because it's been here, and now we can finally enjoy some spring. Let's go. Spring is coming, summer is coming. Spring is here today, today's first day's spring. Today is the, what, at Cremox? Yeah. And our guests today are George Buffalo and George Brooklyn and Boudreaux. Hello all. Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism, and the sciences. And conversely we'll also talk about religion, religious faiths, God's holy books and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non-believer in Knoxville or East Tennessee, well you just not. There are several atheist free thinking and rationalist groups that exist right here in Knoxville, and we'll be telling you more about how you can connect with them right after the mid-show breaks. Also, did you know that there was a streaming atheist call-in video show, slash TV show broadcasting here in Knoxville has been for over 10 years? Did you know that Wombat? You're always bragging about it, but I've never seen WandaVision. I don't want to start new. Okay, well watch it and also watch our atheist TV show. WandaVision is pretty good. If you'd like to use the Facebook and search for our Digital Freethought Radio Hour page and use the messaging function to send us any questions or comments. What's our topic today there, Wombat? So apparently we have a lot of titles for today's topic this week. I want to go through some of the great ones that we came up. It's all the same thing we're going to talk about, but we have different titles for it is what I meant. And so the idea is when can we speak up as atheists with regard to letting religious people know, hey, we don't have to do this religious ceremony. You're on my territory. You're in my home or if this is a public event. Let's show some respect. And so I like the, Eric said, can atheists get a little grace or now bow your heads and pray or else? I like that. There's a lot of catchy titles here. We'll go over them as we go through the show. But that's it. I'd like to lead it forth, Eric. Eric, would you mind talking or Boudre, would you mind discussing this? So are you six feet apart from Buffalo? What's going on here? We're vaccinated. Okay. They said they've been vaccinated. That's good. That's good. All right. Boudre, why am I introducing the topic? Yeah, so this one's just kind of interesting to me. And I think it's going to be interesting to hear what everyone else thinks, because I think it's a nuanced thing where it comes down to, if you ask them, hey, let's not say grace. In this house, because we're not religious, but the other people eating the food are religious. And saying grace doesn't hurt an atheist. So part of me is like, what's the harm? Let's be respectful. Let's let them do their thing. It's not going to change the food in my mind. And again, there's also love to see respect from the other side. Like, couldn't you say grace like in the car ride over, you know, to the food that's in your lap, if you're carrying a casserole dish? You know what I mean? I'm maybe a little facetious there, but is there, like, what's the responsibility? I think it's just disrespectful. Yeah, if they come into your house and they want to practice their religion, it would be like you going to their houses and you can't practice your religion. That's my take on it. I can pay in a picture. So I went to a potluck with friends last, maybe two years ago because of COVID. There's no way it happened last year, right? But I did not realize that a majority of the people that were there were church friends from one of my friends at war church congregation of one of my friends. And so I brought food to this potluck. I am ready to eat some food at this potluck. I'm ready to go. I got my fork. I got my napkins. And then all of a sudden, like this really old dude in, like, you know, a Larry the Cable Guy cosplay, more or less, is like, all right, everybody, we're ready to eat. And I'm like, yeah, I'm getting in line. He's like, all right, everyone bow your heads. And I'm like, no, because I'm ready to eat. I'm cold and I'm ready to eat. I'm in your backyard and I brought food. I brought better food than everybody else here. Black people know how to bring good food at potlucks. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. And it's just like, oh, Lord, I'm like, no, and he's a slow prayer to let me just eat. So in times like that, I always like to keep my eyes open and scan the room to see. Are there anybody else who are here like me on the same level everyone else has their heads down? And there's like five other people are like, what's going on? And I'm like, I don't know how long this is going to take. He's just like, I don't know. I want to get some of that mashed potatoes, man. I was like, yeah. So at that point, would it I played the scenario in my head. Would it be rude for me to just, you know, start checking stuff on my plate while everyone else is like praying to God? And would they look? I'm not interrupting their prayer, right? Like I'm not saying, hey, I'm not saying you can't pray. I'm just saying, like, you know, I'm hungry. I brought my own food here. And, you know, we're all contributing here. You guys can pray if you want to pray. I won't stop you, but I'm here at a potluck, you know, and I'm not religious. Would that be rude or not? I imagine it would not be taken well. But still, why is that? Why is that the world that we live in? George, George, Brooklyn, George, have you ever had a situation like that? Well, yes. And it I mean, it puzzles me. I come from a Jewish background and I'm here. I'm not I'm not in Knoxville. As a matter of fact, for our listening audience and viewing audience, there's only one person on the screen here who is in Knoxville and he just waved his hand. That's Larry. I'm out here in the country. Let me put it that way. And so for me, it's not just that everybody around here is religious. They're all Christian and they're all a certain kind of Christian mostly. Now, if I go out, I go to the supermarket. I find kosher food for sale. There's a kosher kiosk in my local Ingalls market. And now there is a food city that opened up downtown and they've got a little kosher food section. So I'm thinking, where are these Jewish people who are eating this stuff? Where are they hiding? I haven't met any. I've been here for five years. I haven't met any. They just started a meet up. Yeah, but I don't want to because I'm an atheist. Those Jewish people might also be at the same time too. You never know. Well, yeah, but it's like I'm doubly damned in a way. And so I haven't outed myself as an atheist because I'm afraid to, frankly. I mean, a couple of times I've said to people that I'm Jewish. I've gone that far and they have reacted in shock and horror. And I'm not used to that. I'm not used to that. So would you say there's like peer pressure keeping you in these Christian traditions just because you're not afraid, but you can feel that you want to avoid the drama of outing yourself. Yes, I do. I want to avoid the drama. You know, it's like I've come across some some Muslim people here. And I think I'd like to get to know them, you know, because the hell I've always wanted to know Muslim people, you know, to check each other out and say, what do you like? You know, what are you into? What kind of food do you like? You know, you know, sure, sure, sure, you know, I mean, make America great again. Yeah, there is a greatness to America. What is it? It's the diversity of all of us. It's our differences. And I think, yeah, go ahead. I feel like I could totally be more copostetic with Christians if there was just more variety of religions in America. And they all had more of an equal say rather than just one brand of vanilla. And this is the one that's going to be in Congress and the House of Representatives and choosing your own room. Yeah. And it's like, oh, guys, no, no, no, diversify it. Just be aware that like there's a lot of different ideas out there. Yeah. Brooklyn Buffalo. The Asians are certainly saying, you know, the assault on the. You're breaking up. Yeah, you're breaking up. What's and muffled and muffled too. So it would be good if both you and Boudreaux could get closer to your microphone. Well, yeah. Go ahead and check. Yep. Here you go. Yeah. Now finally speaking out. We haven't heard for such a long time about their isolation, basically. I find that very interesting and to listen to their different comments. Yeah. I also feel like this is something that has been said from their community for quite some time and it's not so much that they're finally speaking out, but it's that people are listening. And I think that's also a sign, an alternative sign of growth, because it's not so much just, oh, you guys are finally talking about the violence that are happening to your community. It's like, no, we're finally paying attention to it. Which I think is a really interesting point. Which people are we talking about? Asian community. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But Brooklyn, I'm sorry, Buffalo, did you ever have an experience where you felt peer pressured from just the Christian zeitgeist? Yeah. I've got a couple of different ones that come to mind. One is when we first moved into our new house and so my wife is religious and I'm not. And she goes to the before COVID, she went to this Methodist church and I don't go. I did it first, but I don't go anymore. But anyway, one day there was a knock on the door and it was the pastor of this Methodist church. And he said, I'd like to come in and bless your home. And so he came in and he looked around and sat down and he said a prayer. And I didn't say anything because I wanted to avoid the drama. Sure. He's a crazy guy in my house. Also thinking about my wife. Sure. I want to avoid the drama for her because she's very sensitive to drama. So that was the first instance. And interestingly enough, later on I found out that the same pastor was in the house to have a look around because we have a log home and he subsequently built the log home. So I think he was coming and looking for some ideas as well. But anyway, he said the prayers and he blessed our house. And then the other time was when I had my heart surgery. I was in the hospital. I wasn't feeling well. My family was around me. I certainly didn't want to see any strangers. And the sub pastor of the same church showed up to wish us all well. And he started praying there in the room. And I felt, you know, what are you doing here? I don't want you here. How could you just barge in? And I was offended. Like we lost him. He froze up. Okay. He'll come back in a second, hopefully. But I remember him telling the story like he's basically in a bed strapped in. He can talk, but the fact is he's surrounded by his family and he doesn't want to have like a whole argument there with the pastor in the room. And, you know, that speaks, that says a lot about the opportunistic side of when these sort of situations happen. Cause it's always easy to say, you know, as a pastor is like, well, I'm just trying to help you out in the, in the, in the glory and good gracious of God, maybe they actually genuinely would believe that, but it's also a complete lack of. Maybe they don't believe it. And they're just using it for the power. And I would hope that's not, that's, that is still, that's a dirty, dirty move. But even if it wasn't, it's no consent. There's no consent there. Right. I have a cat. Oh, sorry. Go for it. Go for it, George. There's the assumption. Excuse me. There's the assumption that everybody is the way that they are. Yes. You see, and, and they, they act on that assumption and they're not bad people. No. Um, so I'm, I'm puzzled as to how to deal with that. But it happens when you meet so few people that you must think that everyone's like you. It's like when you're in a church, you're not in a very diverse group. You're in a somewhat in a dogmatic single-minded sort of point of view where there's clear structures of power and everyone's looking in the same direction. And when everyone's doing that, they're not seeing behind them or beside them and stuff like that. So the key, the key part of what you just said that stands out to me is that the people do not have experience with people who are different than them. Right. If you spend your entire life in that kind of community, you don't get to meet Muslims or. And I want to say too that it doesn't really matter where a person is. Um, you know, just because I come from New York City doesn't mean that everybody in New York is enlightened. They are not. Um, you know, it's like there are lots of people in New York City whose whole life is revolved around their local subway station. You see, and they've hardly. And you're not talking about the sandwich shop, right? Um, I don't think so, Larry. He's making a joke. Don't take him seriously. I'm sorry. I get very serious. Never ever take Larry seriously. I'm going to do this stuff to you every day. But really it's almost like they've never been outside their own neighborhood except when they were in the army and got shipped out so much. Yeah. So it's a small city sort of mentality in wrapped around what is generally what I'd like to believe good will. But the problem is you need to have consent to make these things happen. I have a cat. I want to get the story out because I don't want to say I have a cat twice randomly. And people are like, what is he talking about? I have a cat. I can pet a dog whenever I want to pet the dog. The dog is bred to love to be petted. A cat that only wants to be petted when the cat wants to be petted. So when I pet a dog, I'm like, here's the dog. I'm putting my hand on the dog's dog's happy. But for a cat, I have to leave my hand out. And it's up to the cat to decide, yeah, I'll get a pet now. Or no, I'm not into it. And I'll walk away. And it's all about that consensual petting that makes the whole thing good. With a lot of religion, especially pastors, there's just, no, I'm going to pray for you because it's, I'm obligated to do it for you. I'm involved as an agent in this as well. I don't want to hear this prayer. It's all about consent. Yeah. If you'd like to do it remotely, go for it, but don't come into my home and say, I'm here to bless your home. It's like, you could have done that from your apartment. You don't have to do that here. It's like, I'm here to bless your log cabin. I'm here to bless this potluck. You could have done that on the drive over here. You don't have to hold everybody up to eat food. I'm reminded of the inauguration that happened recently with the Bidens rolling. I won't disperse the fact that I was not a fan of Trump. So I'm totally happy that we had a good roll over into the Biden administration, but there are a lot of things that I was watching during that time where it's like, ah, it's so religious. I hope I'm really kind of hung up on this. And I appreciate the fact that like Biden is, you know, America's president first and like he's done like good moves and rolling back, you know, blocked access to abortion and stuff like that. Things that are specifically anti-Catholic. So I'm like, okay, he's looking around. Also, Kamala Harris, you know, she's got that Jewish, married a Jewish guy. She's got a mom that, you know, is not Christian. Dad that is like all these different religious mixed into one person probably doesn't take any of them absolutely seriously. I'm happy about all that, but the inauguration itself had a lot of moments where it's like, and I'm Reverend blah, blah, blah, and I'm here to bless this inauguration. This guy gets married. And I'm like, ah, please move on. He sits down and another pastor stands up and he's doing the second blessing. And I'm like, what's going on? We have to jump out. And Biden has only so many heart beats left. Let's speed this up. He's not a young spring chicken guys. Come on. Hey, what's up? Uh, uh, Dredd Pirate who just joined in Buffalo. Hey, are you back in? Is everything good on your side? Can you hear us? Yes, perfect. Wonderful. We've got a weak signal here. So we're going to leave the video off. That sounds like a great plan. Okay. That sounds good. Dredd. Hey, just for the sake of goodwill, would you mind doing an invocation for us? Because it's kind of, we all consent. Do we all consent to having consent? Okay. Go. Go. We've all consented to have a invocation for this. Yes. Okay. Well, just give me half a second. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Sure. Our noodley lord. Warrant in a colander. Al dente be thy noodles. Thy blood be rum, thy sauce be yum with meat as it is with vegetables. Give us this day our garlic bread and forgive us our cussing as we put up with those who cuss against us and lead us not into ketoism but deliver us some carbs for thine are the noodles and the sauces and the grog. Whatever. Dredd, I want to ask a question. Have you ever prayed for someone who didn't want to be prayed for? No. Why is that important? Would you mind explaining that? Well, certainly I've had people say that they would pray for me and I've said please don't. For one thing, it's hubris to think that you can do somebody a favor by appealing to what you think is your connection to a superior power. And so I wouldn't do it to somebody who didn't want it done and I wouldn't want it done to me by somebody who thinks they can. Okay. It's just a, hey, it's a default pro sort of situation. Like I'm not going to do it to you. Please don't do it to me. It's all about. Well, exactly. And I don't even say, I don't say bless you anymore to people who sneeze because I think it's one of those knee jerk things that people just do without even appreciating why they do it and just really how silly it is. I say praise to the seven and I'm not going to stop doing it. I go to the Seinfeld thing now. You're so good looking. Yeah, we're in that age. George, we were finishing up the story that you were saying when you were in the hospital and you had the pastor over and basically he's praying and it's like offensive because he's around your family and you don't want to make a scene but you also are sort of in this awkward position. What was your takeaway from that? I helped to finish the story for you but I wanted you to get your final thoughts on that. Well, my takeaway was that minister was very insensitive and that he will be painted that way in my mind forever. Yeah, he showed no sensitivity to the fact that I might not want that just from the point of view of my discomfort at the time. I was physically not comfortable at all. I didn't want any strangers around but he just barged in and started praying. But he was making so many good points with his God at your expense, isn't that? Think of all the brownie points he was making. He probably got like six credibility points with everybody for his God. Isn't that the better, greater purpose? Well, I guess. This same guy one time I ran into him in the hardware store. He came up to me and I was looking for some ant killer the old fashioned kind that has both and you can't hardly buy anymore. And so I was looking for it and he came up to me and he started to talk and I think he said, well, what are you looking for? I said, I'm looking for a war rate based ant killer. And I said, I don't see that they make it anymore. And he says, I said, baby, I'll go and make my own. You know, I've got chemical. I know what the ingredients are. I can look at the internet and he said, I laughed and he says a mad scientist. You know, so he knew I was, you know, engaged in science. And to me, my media thought was he's doing the same thing again. He's making these assumptions. Yeah, that's not a casual thing that you say to people. Yeah. And so again, he's painted forever as a very sensitive person that I don't want to have much to do with it all. That plus making boring is not hard that like if someone was making scrambled eggs, you wouldn't be like, ah, you psychopathic cooker. He's like, no, this is, it's a really easy situation. It's just powders you mix together. What's going on? George, what's going, what's up? What's up? You know this, I'm going to come back to this a number of times. I think something that's been on my mind for some time now is that we generalize. It's human nature to generalize. We have to do it. It's the way we make sense out of the world. We compartmentalize information in our heads and animals do it. And so, George Buffalo, I wanted to ask you what was the context of this person you're talking about? Where were you for one thing? What was your location? Hospital or the hardware store? Hospital bed, and I could hardly move because I just had 5x bypass surgery. Yes. What city was this in? What town? Lexington, in Lexington, Kentucky. Lexington, Kentucky. See, not Buffalo, New York. No, no, no. So Buffalo's got what? Two million people, right? And Lexington's got a whole lot less. And a person's sphere of interaction with other people is much smaller in Lexington, Kentucky, I'm assuming. So this person's world is smaller. The diversity of his experience is smaller. And he has made an assumption about you, which was wrong, but based upon the generalizations that he's made from his own small, contextual universe. That's my point. We're missing. Ty, do you have a minute? Yeah, go for it. The other piece I think we're missing here is they think that doing these things has no penalty. Like it can't hurt anyone. They're doing these things. Eric, that's what I want to talk about. Second half of the show. That is a whole thing I'm setting up for you, baby. But I will say this before we head out to the break. George, yes, he's a product of his environment, but everyone's a product of their environment. It's not the fact that it's ubiquitous that it's OK, right? We all do it. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. It's like, yes, it's common, but we also have to treat each other well. Larry, go ahead and say your points and then take us out. OK. I was just going to say a couple of times that religious people have taken advantage of me at just point blank. My second wife and I were both atheists, but her mother wanted us to go to her church. So we conceded and went. The preacher met us in the foyer. He met everybody in the foyer, and he would take your hand and he wouldn't let it go until he was ready to let it go. What? No, I'm not kidding. You could try to pull your hand away and he'd just hold it. Well, this was my first introduction to this, and I let him have it for just a few minutes, and then I stepped back and pulled my hand away, and he held it so hard that he actually dug a channel in my palm. What? I mean, yeah. This was over in Smithwood Baptist in North Knoxville. If anybody is familiar with that, they probably know the pastor. The other time was just when, I mean, we have our atheist meetups. I mean, this is just a bunch of atheists getting together on a schedule, having dinner, drinks, conversations, and there was this religious guy, felt he had to come down and just preach at us. And he came in and he sat down for about two months every week, he would show up, sit down, and try to convert us to Christianity. Wow. Now, they just feel they got to, I guess, and at least that particular one did. And it was, you know, everybody after, say the second or third week, just stopped talking to him. I mean, we tried to be polite and tried to ask him not to preach to us, totally ignored it, and went on for two months before he finally left. So that's my two examples. I could give you a lot more. I've been an out-atheist for 20 years and a leader in the atheist community. But we'll just hold it there and go on to break. Thanks. This is the Digital Freethought Radio Hour at WZO Radio 103.9 LP FM, right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. And we'll be right back after this short break. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour and WZO Radio 103.9 LP FM, right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Sunday, March 21, 2020. I'm Larry Rhodes, and this is the second half of the show. Let's talk about the atheists of Freethought groups that you can join right here in Knoxville. First, there's the Atheist Society of Knoxville, or ASK, founded in 2002, where in our 19th year, an ASK has now over 1,000 members. We get together on a weekly Zoom meeting during this COVID outbreak. But hopefully, before too long, we'll start meeting back in person again for dinner, drinks, and conversation. You can find us online at KnoxvilleAtheist.org, or you can just go to Meetup or Google and type in Knoxville Atheist. It's just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you can still go to Meetup and search for an atheist group in your town. Don't find one? Star One! Right. Another large Freethinking group here in Knoxville, the rationalists of East Tennessee, R-E-T. You can find them on Facebook or at rationalist.org. Go there and click on Upcoming Events to find out what they're up to. Earlier in the show, we said we'd talk about Knoxville's Atheist video show while they do it every week, and their archives are on YouTube. Just go to YouTube and do a search for Freethinkers United Coalition of Knoxville or Freethought Forum Knoxville. Freethought Knoxville will get you in either case. With us on the show today, we have Wombat. We have Buffalo and Boudreau. And it's hard to say who it is if they're not on the screen, but with us on the screen, see, Brooklyn. There it is. Hey. There's Dred Pirate. Yay. Okay. And what are we talking about? Where do you want to pick up today? Sign language for fan. And it's always hard to describe sign language over the radio, right? But imagine making a fantastic sign with your hands. You know that little thing that looks like almost like you pinched your thumb and your pointer finger together? Like you're saying, okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're saying, okay, the fantastic sign. That's a sign for F. If you make a fist with your thumb on the side of your hand, that's an A. And then if you take your first two fingers, your pointer, your middle finger, wrap it over your thumb, that's an N. F-A-N. That's how you spell fan. But I want to go over listener feedback today. But before we do that, what a fan. What a fan. What a fan. What a mighty good fan. What a mighty good fan. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. All right. So we are going to go over a really great question that we got in the messenger group that we have. This was from our own Boudreau. And he asked, can religious guests always make the argument that grace doesn't hurt atheists? So just let us say it. Basically, hey, it doesn't hurt you for me to pray. So just let me pray. What's the real offense here? And actually, Boudreau, you were alluding to that as like an excuse that you had been given earlier in the show. Would you mind elaborating on that and maybe giving me some advice on what you think is the best query course for that? Yeah. I think really I'm kind of of an open mind here. I'm wondering this because I've done the same thing. Let's see. No. It was a dread mark. I kind of considered stop praying bless you because it seems silly and also seems admitting you believe in it a bit. But it seems rude. I'm so I'm torn. I know I've done a lot of conferences in the south, particularly where right before the big banquet, before the meal, everyone bows their heads. And I do the same thing. I look around to see how many cool people are in the room. Yeah. Yeah. I do that at work. I've done that a lot. And I've gotten nods. I'm gotten, you know, looks, you know, of course, occasionally kept someone to just open their eyes by mistake or whatever. You know, whatever. They probably, you know, but I don't know. I struggle with it because I don't know because one is, is a you're doing something saying grace. And the other is you're not doing it. It's really hard for me to say you can't say grace or, you know, do it. Do it in, you know, in your own mind. Don't say it out loud. It just it's hard for me to say that because that seems, it doesn't seem to be the right tactic. I think you need, there needs to be a middle ground. Maybe I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys. I'm curious with you guys. Judd Pirate, we'll go with you first. What's your thoughts? And I'll try to speak more quietly because I am inside a car here. So that's why the game so high. He always starts with an apology. Isn't that great? It wouldn't be. But in British Columbia, there was a lot of treaty nation. So, you know, everyone tends to start these meetings with an acknowledgement of the unceded grounds of one tribe or another. And some of these bigger conferences, of course, they'll have an elder come in to do a blessing. And I find that offensive myself because it's just, you know, it's just trading Christianity for another form of spiritualism, which I do not agree with. And so, you know, when, you know, when the elder says, you know, everyone stand up and we'll do the invocation, all that kind of stuff. I don't. And I do that at the expense of looking really, really out of place. But I sense, of course, that there are others that feel the same way, but go with the crowd and stand up in spite of themselves, not wanting to look out of place. But I just won't have it myself. Good for you. Great points. Brooklyn, George, you want to win? Yes, got a short one and a long one. The short one is that I just keep quiet. I just don't say anything. You know, let them. That's a short one. Yeah, that's a show. And the long one is a funny one. This is a funny one. I had shoulder surgery last July and the woman who drove me over to the hospital is an atheist also. And so I was waiting, you know, to go into the operation and my atheist friend said, I'll pray for you. And we both burst out laughing. And then after it was all over, I was still partially under the anesthetic. A nurse rolled me out in a wheelchair to her car and helped me get into the car. And then I'm told this is what I did. The nurse said to me, have a blessed day. And I replied, F you. Classic story. That's my long one. Larry, I'd like to see what your opinion is on this. The harm in what is there if someone said, Hey, what's the harm in just asking you to pray with me over the food that you cooked Larry, like what's. It would be the equivalent to me saying, don't pray and stay silent with me. I mean, he's got a right to practice his own religion, but he doesn't have to force it on me. Right. And if he wants to like pray in my presence, he can do it in his head. If he wants to do it out loud, then he shouldn't mind if I walk away or do something else while he's doing it. Right. You know, it's just, just another means for them to force the religion on you. I think back to that potluck and, you know, I was happy to not make a scene. You know, I, it sucks. It sucks when you're putting that kind of situation, but it's also like such a, a position of such an easy privilege. It's such an easily privileged. It's just like, of course you would want to pray with me. Of course everyone here is a Christian. And if they're not, well, they're going to do it anyway because this is my home and you brought food to my home to eat at my place. So I have the advantage here, but it's like, if I knew that I wouldn't have probably come. And if you, and if I ever cook food and I'm inviting other people to come to eat at my place and someone says, hey, I would like for everyone to bow their heads and pray. And I was like, no, you're in my place. Don't do that. I want to speak up in that point. But I hear, here's where I eerily draw the line because I have gone, for example, to a home with a bunch of Native Americans. And they said, hey, we have a thing that we do before we eat. And I'm like, I am fascinated by this. I absolutely want to be a part of this. I want to hear it. They asked me those. And I'm like, yes. But it was like this. It was like a prayer, but it was more of like, hey, for the food that we have, for the friends that we have, for the family that we have, we're thankful. And then they just ate. And I'm like, that is a great thing to say. In Japan, they also have a phrase that they, they offer before they eat food, which is more, which is akin to, I humbly accept this food. And it's commonly understood that everybody says that before they eat, even if it's just a quick little thing. And I'm like, that's fine too. Like, if it's a cultural thing, I'm good with it. If it's a, if it's a novel experiment experience, I'm fine with it. But if it's a thing that is so clearly dogmatic and, and tied to like a specific God, and it's assumed that you believe in that God too, and that you have to do it because I'm not asking you. I felt like that's the draw line. It's a lot of nuance there, but basically don't force me to do it. Another word is unsophisticated. Unsophisticated. Yeah, they're giving no thought to what they're doing. You know, the Indians thank the animals that they've killed before giving them something to eat. And, you know, that is in contrast to, I think, just forcing their religion upon you. Yeah. On the bless you thing, the way I look at it is, if I say anything, I, like George, I remain quiet. When somebody says bless you when I sneeze, if I say anything, I'm just becoming a purveyor of their religion. I would like, I'd like to add something to that because one thing I like about this discussion is that each of us is coming at this, from a personal standpoint, each one of us has offered a unique perspective and I have to respect that. I have a woman who's been helping me and she is a case manager for my insurance company. If I call her voicemail, I get an announcement and the end of the announcement is have a blessed day. Now, if a person says that to me sometimes, I feel I will give this person no quarter. Can I, can I throw something out just as a... Yeah, yeah. There is a perceived monopoly on words that I don't think is justified. And I would say like Christians don't own the word chariot. They don't own the word congregation. They don't even own the word Lord. They borrowed that from like medieval times when there was like a Lord of properties and they just applied that to a God because they needed a word for that. But like Lord chariot, bless, I don't think they own that word either and I feel like our increasing obstinacy, use that word only gives them more ammunition without a reasonable fight and I feel like why give them that? Well, let me continue. I have grown to know this person and I mean a little bit, we've had a number of conversations on the phone and I've grown to like her and that changes the whole bowl game because I will cut her some slack. If she says have a blessed day in her voicemail, that's okay, that's okay, you know. She's just doing it from her whatever background she's got. She's a genuinely nice person and helpful. I also feel like you gave me, so like you can know the person. A situation like that, a friend of mine just responds, that's sweet. Yeah. You know, like thank you for saying that but without agreeing that it's a religious context. Yeah, that's a midpoint. I would say like there would be way less stress if I just did not connotize that with a religion thing and if someone says bless me, it's like yeah, because I don't want to get sick or like maybe it's a nice thing to sneeze. I'm fine with it. It's not like they pull out a Bible and I know other atheists who say bless you when you sneeze and it's like not a big deal and if people are like having a conversation where it's like bless you and then the one atheist in the room is like, F you for saying that. I'm like, oh no, you're making us all look bad. Let me go out of my way to say hey, I'm an atheist and I also say bless you and that guy's crazy. What this guy? But yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope you get better too. But yeah, I think we got to watch our reputation. That's all. Yes. There's a perceived perception issue here. One of the original atheists who got a reputation was a woman named Madeleine Murray O'Hare and she found that an organization which is still very big in this, in the atheist business, let me say. And she was a very obnoxious woman, you know? And it's like what you're saying, Terrone, what kind of reputation has she laid on all the rest of us? You know? She was guilty, right? Yeah, I believe so and probably the person who did it did us all a favor, you know? Larry, you happen to know some things about this lady as well. Did you want to win? Which lady is that? Madeleine Murray O'Hare. Oh yeah. We have heard to think through the fact that she pretty much got prayer taken out of school. And of course, the religious challenged that all the way up to the Supreme Court but the Supreme Court upheld it. So no more praying in school from the authorized or the authority figure, the teacher, the administration, you can't do that anymore. However, whenever somebody says there is no prayer in school, let's just silly, there will be prayer in school as long as there are tests. But she's responsible for an awful lot of the good, I mean, the advancement that atheists have made in America and if you're not familiar with Madeleine Murray O'Hare, I would look her up and see all of the action that she did. She also created the American Atheist Organization. That's what I was talking about. Yeah. I think it's also important to highlight, this goes back straight into Bujo's question, like what harm does it cause? Why don't you just let us say it? It's because there's so many unilateral protections put onto very specific religious groups that aren't evenly distributed to anybody else. Such that when someone says, what's the harm of me saying it? Well, these rights or the privileges that you're using aren't being given to anybody else. So for me to kowtow to just allow you to do what you want because there's no perceived harm, isn't the same measure of protection that we're giving to anybody else and just only serves to benefit you? You don't have to look any farther than like the county seats that are invocations. They're like 100% Christian and usually Protestant Christian, particularly in the South. And I'm sure Dred Pirate can chime in here to try to be able to get a different sect of any kind of religion to give the invocation. It's just heresy to them. They won't allow it generally. We've got to go to public opinion here in Knoxville and surrounding counties to get our invocation done. And Dred, we'll throw this to you because I think it's really important because when you start giving so many privileges to one religion, that one religion becomes the de facto judge on who also gets to have religious pillar villages. And that's a really, really bad loop. You don't want to have that. You want to speak on that, Dred? Well, one thing I would certainly like to point out is that as I mentioned about the Native Americans or indigenous peoples, this move towards sort of invocating or making invocations at the beginning of meetings, if you don't participate or if you don't agree with it, you're seen as a colonialist. And that is a colonialist. Yeah, so you're painted as an Indian hater essentially or a racist because they don't separate these things. The separation of their spiritual beliefs, by all means have them, but don't impune me because I don't participate on the grounds that I don't believe in spiritualism or I don't believe in the great spirit or the ancestors or all that crazy stuff, blood and soil. I don't believe in that stuff. And I've just found that I've run up some instances where people have said, well, you're a colonialist and I get very offended by that label. Is that a Canadian thing? Because I've never heard of that word until today. I know what a colonialist is, but I didn't know it was a derogatory term until today. It is, absolutely. And certainly, I work with community foundations. So I had a pretty strong occasion to sense that when I was at a conference in Ottawa where it was really around reconciliation and that if you weren't full on board with reconciliation and making the clear distinction that there is indigenous and non-indigenous people and if you're non-indigenous, you owe every indigenous person an apology and a duty to participate in their spiritualism. And no, I'm just not buying it. So yes, in Canada it seems to me that it's pretty strong, especially in British Columbia because there's so many small nations and tribes that are unresolved treaty nations. So it's pretty big in BC. Geez. I do want to flip this on its head real quick because we're getting towards the end of the show. I don't want to just continue to bash on religion. I know atheists or non-religious topics have a tendency to pick topics of conversation or derail conversations in ways that the people at the table did not consent to either. There have been, for example, the guys who are like, hey, I want to talk about politics. Can you believe what's going on with XYZ? You're like, oh, it's the politics guy. We're playing, we're bowling or like we're doing work. We don't want to talk about politics or people who'd like to do, hey, let me tell you about my stocks and how they're doing. I don't want to talk about your money. The last thing I do is think about money, your relationships or whatever issues you're having with them or politics and then religion. Those are like the four taboos of social conversation. But have you had experience, just so we can contextualize this for religious people who might be watching the show, have you had experience? We'll go with Larry first with topics that are not religiously based but are being pushed on you on a non-consensual basis. Man, I wish there was an exit plan here because I don't want to have this conversation with you. But the other guy totally wants to have that conversation with you. Oh, sure. I can't really come up with any right off the top of my head. But the ones that you mentioned come to mind. I'm talking about people talking about insurance, talking about their work. Specifically, my brother was really bad about talking about his work. And I mean, he yelled me on a phone conversation one time for two hours talking about his work. You can't have Larry on the phone for two hours. He's thinking about video games at that point. You might hear a toilet flush in the background. Sure, it happens. Dred, you raised your hand. Did you want to talk about a conversation you've been forcing to? Well, of course, over the last year, it's really COVID conspiracies. Oh, yeah. And I am so done and tired of hearing people. I don't know anyone that died from it. Yeah, stop already. I mean, in certain situations, it would be a great opportunity to do an SE. But in a lot of occasions, it's not. I mean, I'm a busy guy, and I don't have always 20 minutes to sit down with you and have a reason and intelligent discussion. But just to lay it on me, oh, there's COVID, blah, blah, blah. It's like, stop already. I just turn around and I walk away. Good for you. Good for you. George, Buffalo and Boudreau, did you guys have a topic that you were very forced into and did not want to have that conversation? But it was almost unconsensually pushed on you. I got one kind of ties a little bit to Dreadpire, but specifically against the vaccine. Like the people that are like, no, I'm going to wait until it's safe or, you know, I don't know if I really need it. It's just like, you are just not helping one bit. You're just, you know, if you don't want the vaccine, just don't talk about it. You've got to stop spreading bad information. And on the flip side, so we have been lucky in our job where a lot of people are getting vaccinated just due to the nature of our work. But there are people who clearly don't want to be vaccinated. And I've had one-on-one conversations with them and it's always a different excuse each time. Typically it's like, well, I just don't want to get sick. It's like, oh, I'm too busy at my work. I can't really walk away from, you know, pushing this button and having to do a three-hour test with no interaction for me whatsoever. Or just like, yeah, allergies are coming up and I don't want a complex, you know, headache or anything like that, bad time of the month, whatever. Oh, it makes me upset. But yeah, I get that. Buffalo, did you want to win? I just wanted to say I heard a good comment. The best comment I've heard on this, from a actually a African-American minister was asked, well, what do you do to get past the resistance of your congregation, you know, with things in mind like the Tuskegee experiment and all that stuff? Yeah. But he says, well, he says, I just tell him, do you want to cough or do you want to cough it? Oh, I like that. Cool. George, Buffalo, it's Brooklyn George. You guys got to get different names. I'm George Brown, the two and a half. I know you have a neighbor across the street who's probably, you know, put up propaganda signs and probably rubbed into the conversations. No, he stopped. He stopped doing it. He stopped. Really? Your podcast? No, no, no, no, it was when the Baptist church said that flying a Confederate battle flag was racist and you shouldn't do it. Oh, and he changed his mind? He took down his Confederate battle flag. This was about four years ago. I think this happened. He has never said anything about believing in that particular branch of baptism. But he just, the flag vanished. Nice. And it has not been seen since. George, I want you to think about something that you can plug before we close the show today. Dred Pirate, is there, what's going on with you and what would you like to plug? Also, where can we get access to that PDF disclosure that the judge gave you from a couple of weeks back? Don't forget to put yourself off me, my friend. Yeah, sorry about that. So what do we do? I'm sorry. I apologize. You guys, how do you know who's Canadian? It's almost religious. So I can be found on Mine Pirate, M-I-N-D-P-Y-R-A-T-E on YouTube. And what I'll do is I'll post it as, I think I can put it up as a file there, right? In the comments sections? Yeah, you can say like, hey, here I am. Here's a story that went through. Yeah. And what I'll do is I'll make a short video as an introduction to the whole thing so people can find me on there. So, and please subscribe if and when you do go. Nice. Thank you. Cool. Hey, Boudreau, tell me something cool that we should check out before next week. What do you think? Oh, I got a good one. Oh. I'm going to need you to promise me that you won't listen to this when you're tired. Okay. I don't want you to fall asleep. All right. Oh, no. It's our boy. Hello. Sam Harris. Sam Harris? And Bingo was his name. He's taken all of his thoughts on free will and put them into one podcast. And I'm telling you guys, if you're for it or against it or believe in it or not, listen to the podcast. It is fabulous. And it gets into morality. It gets into why it's important for us to admit there's no free will. Please listen to it. Are you asking us, you're asking us to choose to listen to this podcast, how there's no free will. Is that what you're asking? And actually that, that is what I'm joking. Some of us will and some of us won't. And it's already pretty determined. Why are you asking us to do it? If it's already. Is that on the, is that the Sam Harris site then? I'll put the link at actually tie. He addresses that exact issue on the podcast about why that is not a paradox. Put the link in the messenger group and we'll post it with the show. Yeah. Okay. Buffalo George. Anything that you'd recommend we check out before next week? Not particularly. Cool. It's been a very interesting week. I'm sorry, George. Buffalo from Brooklyn. What's your thing that you would recommend? I had something on my mind and I can't remember it now. I'm sorry. I'll remember it next week. I picked up a really great book over the last month called you won't believe what happened to Lacey. It's a book by a comedian named Amber Ruffin. She's the only black and only female late night show host on NBC. She's got a show called the Amber Ruffin show and she wrote a book with her sister who they were both raised in Omaha, Nebraska and they were chronicling all the random funny stories that happened to them that involve racism. You might think, oh no, that's sad. It's like she's a really great comedian. She frames everything in a hilarious point of view. And two, it's good to be uncomfortable. It's about stuff like this. And so the book is called you can't believe what happened to Lacey. She's promoting it on her show, but what I'd really recommend is that you check out Amber Ruffin's YouTube channel. It's on Peacock NBC. But Amber Ruffin show is really great. If you see the Seth Meyers show and you like Seth Meyers, she's the lead writer on that show. And a lot of the judges spell it. Are you FFIN? She's the she's Amber Ruffin. Are you FFIN? She's the lead writer on that and a lot of the funny stuff happens when she comes on the show and plays as a character and set her and her are both playing back off each other. It's really great. Larry, you know, I keep having this problem. You say I should check out this thing called atheism. And I'm like, you know, I have a car already. And it's a really nice car. I don't know what you mean by atheism. Is that a new model car? Maybe I just don't know what it's all about. Talk to me. Perhaps you could find a book that says what it's all about. My book is called atheism. What's it all about? And it's available on Amazon. My own content, generally for the book and otherwise, is on digitalfreethought.com. Be sure to click out the blog button if you go there. We also have our show archive, Atheist Songs, and many articles on the subject. My YouTube channel is under Larry S. Rhodes. If you have any questions for the show, this radio show, you can learn from this podcast. You can send them to askanatheist at Knoxvilleatheist.org and we'll answer them on future shows. If you're having trouble leaving religions behind, you can find help at recoveringfromreligion.org. And if you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. This has been the Digital Freethought Radio Hour. Remember, everybody is going to somebody else's hell. The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it. Enjoy your life, and we'll see you next week. Say bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye-bye.