 Dyna ni'n mynd i gael i'r Microsoft. Ieithaf yw'r gwaith yn fawr o gwirionedd oedd o'r cyflwyno'r cyflwyn, ond mae'n ddefnyddio'r cyflwyn ar y ddechrau wahanol cyflwyno'i a'r ddweud i'r sefydlion i'r Llyfrgell Llyfrgell. Yr hwn ymchwil yn gwneud i'r gerirolong, boed y cwmhaen i'r cyflwyn o'r cyflwyno'r cyflwyn, mae'n fydd yn y cyflwyno, Felly, mae'n cael ei chyfnodol yn y dynol iawn. Mae'n meddwl yn yr UK i ddim yn eu gweithio gwahanol ar gyfer y gwaith yng Nghymru ac yn ei wneud bod yn gweithio ar y gwaith. Mae'n meddwl yn ei ddim yn ei ddim yn ei ddim yn mengylchedd i gwybod. Mae'n meddwl y gallu hwn yn y pethau. Yn ymchwil yma, mae'n angen i'n ddim yn gweithio arnynt gwybod ar gyfer Peter Strigt, ym ymgylchedd cteil ym Fedex, yn y cyd-degor. Mae'n gweithio ar gyfer Peter, Pwysiwn am fawr lei'r mewn cyd-weddysgwyr a wneud, gyda'r ffordd i'w colli, maen nhw'n ddim yn bwyllnod ac yn ystafell yw'r ffordd, a'i wneud o'n grwanhau. Felly dyna i ei fod yn ei ddiwedd i'w gweithio, yn y pryd diolch i'w beithio, ond nid i'w eu restaurantsi yn gwybod yn yw gwaz o'r ystyried. Aled o'r ystafell, yn leiwch'u gweithio, dw i ddim yn ymdredig, yn yr Andy yn ein wazion i'r bwysig, in Boston and is probably the global blogger on openness the use of open standards has a huge blog which I'm sure Andy will tell me afterwards or perhaps now it's just how many readers it has but I think it is probably the largest red blog in the whole area of openness so thank you for coming gentlemen um do you agree with Andrew Demeya? I don't quite understand where he goes with some of his logic because on the one hand he says quite accurately that governments are facing quite severe economic circumstances and almost implies that is why open everything is a bad idea and actually that's almost the inverse of where I come from because I actually think if you look at the current economic environment open everything seems a very powerful lever for governments to be pulling if you take a recent UK committee report it recommended that any company dealing with the public sector should have to open the published details of their commercial arrangement so that it could be open to public scrutiny which they saw as a key lever both of demonstrating integrity and hopefully building some trust that doesn't currently exist but also providing a competitive stimulus in the market so I'm not clear with some of the uh well I guess the lack of logic that Andrea Demeya seems to follow in his piece but do you you know again I'm going to keep pushing all three of you on some of these points because do you actually feel that there is ministerial support you know okay the UK is the example you just gave but is the ministerial support to drive it through and actually say this is a priority and it's going to make it happen because it's nice words and it looks good on the election thing but I suspect five years in maybe it's not top of their priority list I think it's still there and it's quite interesting watching different administrations come into power and the difference between any politicians in opposition and when they actually arrive and the reality of what they can implement there is always a divergence but if you look at the open data institute that's being set up in the UK with Nigel Shabolt and other people involved with that to commit to getting data over there's a commitment to actually begin to publish and in fact more data is already being published the target is to publish every single commitment over £25,000 that central government makes with the supplier so it is happening it's probably not as fast as a lot of us might wish okay well and let's just see what the other guys say first of all and then we'll come back to that I think please sir okay that will be an interesting discussion because I wholeheartedly agree with the cherry I think it's very strange in the text from Andrea that he says yeah government should be thinking about their budgets and lots of other stuff besides openness and openness is not on the top of the agenda and I can agree with that it's not on the top of the agenda it's sharing is on the top of the agenda one of the programs that our minister Henry Bogart launched was Optifit optimizing the federal government it's all about shared services about sharing data sharing infrastructure now how can you share if your environment is not open and so although openness is not at the number one priority list sharing and mutualize mutualization of infrastructure is and you can only do that if you have an open environment and so open for us it's not only about sharing it's about innovation feddict software development for the electronic identity card is open source from the beginning and so we had some very interesting side effects and benefits that we never at the front of the of this initiative thought that would be possible were realized and so collaboration with Portugal for example was one of them but we have a whole range of other benefits of being open again the interoperability effect is there driving costs down is there the exit costs are way lower so there's a lot of things that openness know it's not number one on the priority list but a lot of other things are but they all somehow built on this foundation of openness okay i'll let everybody just say a few things first of all and I'll try and challenge some of you Andy I think there's a few points that are worth making the first is is that openness can't be looked at just as an economic issue openness is a little bit like building maintenance you think you can let the roof go for a year or two and then catch up later but openness in government isn't really like a roof because things happen every day and it's a value of government that's been established through hundreds of years and if you're not true to your values it's easy to let the roof go and start to get some leaks so I think to only talk about the economics is to miss a very central point when we're talking about government the second thing is is that yes you can add open to anything but that doesn't make them all the same there's a separate business case and a separate set of rationales in each each case and you can't really conflate them all together and say that they're the same open source has to do with costs of provision services it has to do with competition in the marketplace on the other hand open government hasn't anything to do with it has to do with being true to the values that you put forth for the people open data is something else again it has an element of transparency it also has an element of opportunity for for commerce open standards can be a way to achieve government policy so all of these things have separate business cases and in each of them it's only partially an economic concern so I think that it misses the boat in in two senses it's it's unfair to the business case in each case and it leaves aside the special concerns of government it's compared to commerce when they speak of openness yet to be to to be fair to andrew de maire because we did invite him obviously to speak but he's actually in south africa this week so he couldn't make it which is why I wanted to make sure we gave him a you know we covered his points but he made a he's one of the points and quotes he put is that should governments not adopt openness without question unless they possess the culture to encourage the unselfish collaboration that is essential for success do we really think there is that culture in place in government and when I say government I don't necessarily mean national government it could be local government or or state government or whatever depending which country so is there that culture in existence pito you know I think again referring to to Andy's statement it has to do with what type of openness are you talking about are you talking about open source there you need a special culture of of openness a community building and so forth and I agree that that perhaps not everybody in government is up to using open source as a way to build communities but with open data and open standards it's a whole different business case and yes I I don't agree with Andrea that that government is in love to that I'm convinced that open standards and open data are the business case is there and it it's not particularly tied to the collaboration or the culture within government it is not okay Joey would you could you agree yes and I think if you take the the case of open data if you look typically most governments they've grown up in quite a siloed way even within a particular government department you might find different systems that contain the same information as systems sitting alongside them and then as you look across government it gets even worse and I think it's another angle that Andrea's overlooked is the value of open inside government as much as externally which is how do government departments if you think about providing better services to citizen businesses how do they get smarter about more efficient data and information management internally and a lot of that is about opening up these historic vertical silos that might be quite fit to one narrow specific policy purpose but actually don't meet the need for a much more efficient and effective way of delivering so 21st century digital services so I think there's a whole element missing from his blogs which is around the internal value of open Andy well I think what struck me when I read that article was that he was only talking about culturing government and whenever some new opportunity opens up that is is is rich in possibilities but also brand new you can't really anticipate the values that people are going to find in it and in the US there's rather a different attitude that the private sector is ready to pounce on data when it becomes available so I almost wondered whether the more important thing to talk about was the culture in the private sector not so much the government should make it easy for you to capitalize on this but you should be willing to invest in the private sector and accessing that data I think if you do expose the data obviously depends on the type of data but certainly many types of data there's great value there that innovation and the private sector can take advantage of if they're attuned to doing that but relatedly one last quick point the it's a one-time conversion cost and I think that this can be lost too that yes it's expensive in the moment but once it's enabled and once you make the investment in the open standards to be able to prepare the data and then present it in the future you have a long payback period without additional significant investment so just picking out that point about you know the government's role in encouraging innovation and the link because I think one of the lessons learned from Chesborough is the fact is about building a whole network and part of the thing is actually is government seeing that its role is to encourage the external network I think it's going to be interesting to hear what Neely Crow says this morning in her presentation because I suspect that what she is going to be talking is about the role of the commission and its use of its research funding to encourage that innovation so do we see that is happening you know you you're basically other side of the pond do you see that activity is happening in the States is that that engagement with with the industry to create the innovative effect of for example opening up government data well I think the the private sector has quite a long history as I say of the expectation of access to the results of tax funding so whether it be research or whether it be creation of data for example at the end of the Cold War tremendous amount of geophysical data was exposed everything from the entire mapping of the sea bottom weather data and there's very much a culture in society of being able to get that data in any form and then making the investment to make something out of it so as I say I think it's perhaps the cultural issue is more in the private sector the government you know on the US side we would say that's not really necessarily the role of the government that's the role of