 Welcome back to Forbidden Knowledge News. I'm your host, Chris Matthew, and we are joined by the Truth or Theory podcast. And our guest today is Matt Lacroix. He published his first book at the age of 22 and began studying history, philosophy, quantum mechanics and super string theory. His focus became uncovering and connecting the esoteric teachings from secret societies and ancient cultures that disappeared long ago in our past. At 32, he published his second book, The Illusion of Us, which combined years of research to discover the truth about history, human origins, as well as fundamentals of consciousness. In 2019, he released his third book entitled The Stage of Time. Matt, welcome. How are you and how are you guys at Truth or Theory? We're doing good. We're excited to have you guys in this mix. This can be a lot of fun to learn more about the Anunnaki. Matt Lacroix's episode on Truth or Theory is our most downloaded episode. So we're excited to have you back on our platform as well. We're excited to meet Chris. This is gonna be a lot of fun. Thank you guys. It really is wonderful to sit down with all these minds from different channels and different places on the internet. Chris and I have done a lot of shows. We've gone way, way back. I just had a chance to meet E. Willie on the last show that he mentioned, the Anunnaki show we did. But I hadn't had a chance to do anything yet with JP. He wasn't able to be part of that show. So it's great to have him here today. So guys, I'm really excited to get into this presentation. And I really think this is gonna help connect a lot of these missing pieces for people that are yearning for this knowledge. Yeah, definitely so Matt. I always enjoy our conversations. And now we've got two other minds to join us. So we're very much looking forward to this. And you got some awesome stuff you're gonna be discussing with us today. A little bit about more in-depth into the Anunnaki and what their purposes were and what they were doing here and even what they may have looked like. This is gonna be great. So you guys have anything to add at the Truth or Theory before we get into this? I'm excited. I'm ready to go. Blow our minds, Matt. All right, where should we start? All right. So I wanna give just a tiny little bit of a background because I know that not everybody that comes to this information is at the same level. They haven't necessarily studied this for years and years and years. Maybe they're just discovering this for the first time. So what I wanna do is just give a really small, very short, higher level and lower level perspective of this before we really get into what we're talking about. Because I feel like this information specifically is at the highest level. It's not something you just jump right into and start talking about or you're gonna get a lot of people that haven't studied it, roll their eyes and turn this video off and say, I don't know what he's talking about. So I wanna set the stage for what this information is and why it's so important. Over the last couple of years, the last several years of studying this and writing books and trying to understand the earliest point of when civilization started here, there was always these questions that came up, questions revolving around, what are those cylinder seals that have been found in ancient Mesopotamia? What do they represent? What do these murals represent with all these depictions from the past? What are these ancient symbols we find in places like in the Americas, all the way into Turkey, down into Egypt, down into Mesopotamia? Why do we find the same symbols shared by so many different cultures around the world when in our history books, we're taught that those cultures had no contact with another, especially across oceans. They were disconnected from different time periods in history and it's all just random, right? Human civilizations emerged just based on randomness. Some group of kings and group of hunter-gatherers got together. They decided to settle on a location and then they built an empire and then that empire eventually collapsed and that's the whole story we're given. We're told this entire narrative of our civilization can be put into this 6,000 year window with just enormous amounts of slaves being forced into manual labor to create these enormous structures like the pyramids. This is the version we're told. Moving these enormous blocks on these wooden pillars and all these things, it just doesn't make any sense anymore. This old narrative and paradigm that we're taught about how human civilizations got created, how old they are, what the knowledge and the information that was handed down to them, where did it come from? All of these things are starting to become much more in the forefront of conversations and we're not there yet. A lot of society is still sleeping and believes this narrative that we're told that I just described, this very simplistic narrative that really does govern our lives if we think that we're just primitive apes that have no connection to the stars and we have no understanding of what we really are, this higher vibrational being that is a co-conscious creator of this reality around us. If they don't have that perspective, think about how that governs their lives. So that's why I think this information is so important. What we're gonna do today is we're gonna answer some very, very important questions that are just sort of sifting around and floating around the internet that I get emails and I get questions all the time from people. They'll ask me, what do the Anunnaki look like? Are they reptilian? Are they serpent headed? What is the pine cone represent? Why is that shown around the world? But more importantly, what does the handbag symbol represent? That we see all around the world. What do they really represent? And this has been a very, very difficult quest for me to answer some of those questions in their entirety because it's one of these types of learning that you really, really have to spend time laying down these layers of understanding before you can finally say, ah, okay. So that's not supposed to be a literal meaning. It's supposed to be symbolic. And that's what we're gonna be separating today. I wanna explain how all of these pieces fit into our early story, how civilizations became what they are today, when they got started, how they got started. We're gonna try to answer all those questions today. And I'm gonna try to put all of the information I'm doing backed with evidence and information and pictures as part of this slideshow to try to help people bridge these gaps and connect these things that may still be a little bit fuzzy and a little bit difficult to understand. So you guys ready to get started? Ready. Let's do it. We gotta start with symbolism because that's the biggest piece of this to understand. There's usually two camps of people in this esoteric world of studying ancient history. You usually have one camp, and I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus here. This is just usually how it goes. And I have been on many sides of this, of what I'm about to describe it as well, over the course of many years. One side, it will be, you'll see a lot of these ancient symbols and these depictions, and you'll take everything literally, everything, everything that it's shown on there was a literal thing from past. And then you'll try to wrap your heads around what they mean and what these symbols were. You know, I don't understand maybe fully correctly when you look at it like that. And on the other side, you have this other group of society who tends to take it all completely symbolically. They'll still think, okay, all of these things that we're looking at are entirely symbolic and there's nothing literal about it. This is the challenge with these symbols and these depictions we find in ancient history to try to understand what happened long ago, because most of those types of stories and those understandings weren't written down. Some of them weren't uniform tablets. Some of them were in Gnostic writings, but the majority of us understanding this entire story, you have to learn it through symbolism. And that's where this presentation comes in, is how do we separate what's literal? How do we separate what's symbolic? And where can we find that in between where we can try to understand the truth? And that's taken, it's a long road to try to understand that. And I've gone back and forth for a long time, but I feel like I'm at a place now where I can comfortably discuss this and I hopefully can provide people very important answers they need. Now, for those who have followed my work for the last few years, who have read my latest book, The Stage of Time, they know that I discuss the symbols of the eagle and serpent extensively, discuss how it's not really supposed to be a literal translation. In Mesopotamia, when we find this depiction of a serpent headed individual, it's very easy to wanna jump on that and say that's a some reptilian being. Very easy to jump on that. And I don't wanna throw anybody to the bus and say that you're wrong, but I wanna explain my side and my take on how that explains what that means. When you have something serpent headed, just like when it's described like in the code of Hammurabi, blackheaded, we're talking about symbolism that's shown what someone's mentality is. That's why when we have depictions of some of the otonoke, they have an eagle head. They didn't really have eagle heads and they didn't really have serpent heads. It was a symbolic way to describe their mentality. If someone, their mentality is focused on governing through war and control and the masculine energy of creation, that symbol was always shown through the symbol of the eagle. That's what that symbol meant. And the serpent would always represented knowledge and wisdom. So in that case, it really wasn't a scary image with that serpent headed. It actually represented very knowledgeable, a being that was very, very smart, very knowledgeable, not like the society around in the farmers, the ones who were fishing, the common man. Back then, those types of people didn't understand any of this. This knowledge was kept only in the most high levels with priests and magi. The only those at the top could understand what these meant. And I just included some other symbols around here that you may recognize. The top left is the Rothschild's family crest shown with a lion. These symbols all go back to ancient times. The lion, the eagle, the serpent, the owl. These are some of the most important symbols of all. But that's not what we're going to be discussing today. Today, we're going to be discussing the symbols of the pine cone, the handbag and what the Anunnaki did to create civilization here and how all of that went. You know, Matt, I just want to add before you move on that these symbols have been so inverted and kind of perverted over the years to where we fear the snake. The eagle's majestic. We don't necessarily go straight to a war-like culture when we look at the eagle. We kind of fear the snake. We don't look at it as knowledge. So it's kind of been inverted. So I'm really interested to see what this pine cone imagery and the bag has because I've gotten so many different theories and answers from different researchers over the years. So looking forward to hearing this explanation. Yeah. I appreciate you bringing that up actually. It's probably a good thing to mention. Even though I do mention it a lot, it's probably important to mention it to those for those who don't know, but many of these ancient symbols throughout history were just like Chris mentioned, were eventually inverted and perverted to their opposite meanings. In some cases to almost demonize them to seem like it's something that's evil when it's truly something that's the complete opposite and that the bottom depiction, that's supposed to be depiction showing St. Patrick basically ridding the snakes from Ireland. Of course, we just had St. Patrick's Day recently and I love to discuss that how, when you look into it, of course, there were no snakes during that time here in Ireland at all and it was just a symbol to represent the druids and the pagans because St. Patrick's father was a Roman official and they wanted to rid anything that had to do with what was known as the pre-Christian old religions from that area that connected all the way back to the Zoroastrian religion that we're gonna talk about when we get into some of these later symbols. But that's a great point to bring up Chris is that not only it has the meaning behind a lot of these symbols been lost almost over time, but they were deliberately inverted in many cases to hide the truth so that we could live in a reality where it seemed like everything was completely inverted. And for anyone who does not believe that the symbol of the serpent could ever be a positive symbol, just go call 911 if you're ever in distress to go to the hospital and go look on the edge of the ambulance or on that hospital symbol and you'll see the medical caduceus symbol, our most prized medical, our most prized symbol we have in society and it essentially, if it's supposed to be evil, why would it represent reaching higher states of health in consciousness? It just doesn't make any sense. So we have to try to- That's really interesting. Yeah, so that's how we know when we look at examples like St. Patrick's Day and the caduceus symbol and then we look at how nearly every empire and throughout history that was based on war had a symbol of an eagle on their flag or their crest. It's like the truth is remains there forever, but we have to just understand what these symbols really mean. And that's what's getting into the heart of what we're gonna be talking about today because we're gonna move to the next level. We're gonna move to, yes, the eagle and the serpent are some of the most important symbols that we have, but these two that we're about to talk about may be the most important too because they really represent the totality of all of this. Okay? Now, you guys, please feel free to jump in as I'm going along here. So what you have in front of you is a lot of different images all thrown together, collage of images together here. And I wanted to just break some of these down and show you guys this as we're going along. Now the images at the top part of the screen and the left part, these are depictions of the Anunnaki, okay? And that's essentially, those three are the Anunnaki themselves. And we'll get into a little bit more about why they look different. But I mentioned the mentality symbolism with the head thing. That image with the eagle head is an Anurta. It's an ancient God of war. That's why it has an eagle head. Anurta was known as basically the major influencer of the Roman Empire. And you can find that with the Anurta symbol right there. You'll see it with the Byzantine double-headed eagle. And I showed that on the last image on the rock shown in the background. That represented having awareness and knowing everything about all around you. So having something look left and right meaning we would be knowing all, but not knowing in a knowledge sense, being aware of everything, knowing what everyone's doing, being one step ahead of them. This was the Anurta symbol. Now what you'll see though, in even in that case being an eagle headed mentality that I described, they had this symbol of a pine cone in their hand nearly every time. They're holding that pine cone and pointing in a certain direction. And as we go along, looking at these specific murals from Mesopotamia that I'm gonna be talking about which reference either Kings or the Anunnaki. I want people to remember what you're looking at. Everything has meaning. Every little curl, every little mark, every single thing they put in these designs means something. That's what's so fascinating about it. I literally stared at some of these for hours and hours on end, just try to figure out what they're representing. So what I'm showing here essentially just to break it down is these Anunnaki individuals, these figures are holding a pine cone and they're always facing it forward in front of them. Now, when you go to the Vatican in Rome where the pope stands out and comes out and gives all those commandments and talks to everybody, what you find in the square is a giant pine cone symbol, the largest in the entire world, sitting in the center of their religious establishment there is enormous pine cone, okay? At the same time, the pope on his staff has a pine cone built right into the wood itself and you can see that depicted down the bottom as well as a hat that he wears called the miter hat. Now, when you look into the story of the Dogon, the ancient tribe that's in Western, Southwestern or Western Africa in the country of Mali, you find out that this Dogon tribe had all of this knowledge about the stars and the heavens way before the first telescopes were ever invented, before they ever had influences from other cultures. You just had this remote tribe in the middle of the Western Africa that had knowledge about the heavens that literally no one had knowledge of at that time or very few select groups. And so when French anthropologists first came over to meet them in the 1930s, they couldn't understand how this tribe knew the detailed alignments and celestial movements of Sirius A, B and even C and Sirius B hadn't even been discovered yet. It wasn't discovered for years and years later until the first radio telescopes were made. And this culture somehow knew vast amounts of knowledge about our cosmos and in about our planet as well. And the reason I say that and bring up that story is that if you look at depictions of the Dogon that they have, they show this aquatic serpent like fish being known as Iwanis. And Iwanis has a hat on in those depictions and that hat is where the miter hat came from. And Iwanis is passing on that knowledge in these depictions to these Dogon people. So when you look at the Pope today, it's simply just a reference from these ancient knowledge bringers that passed to law and knowledge. And Iwanis wasn't really an aquatic fish being, it was just a symbol to represent Anki. Cause when you look at cylinder seals of Anki, you see that he essentially has these fish coming down above him. And he's basically in charge of the God of freshwater and balance. And so all these things that we see today in these corrupted religious establishments and these inverted truths of these symbols, they all go back to a much more ancient time before they really became inverted to their opposite meanings just like something like the swastika. All those things were either inverted or hidden so that we no longer understood what they are. The reason I am talking about this in particular so much is that we know that the pine cone represented knowledge, the passing of knowledge and wisdom. We know that the pine cone represented both our third eye, the pineal gland within the human brain, as well as it represented this honeycomb hexagonal design, the seeds of life, the seeds of knowledge, that represented basically this intelligent design behind all of nature itself. So they decided to use of any symbol in the entire world, the pine cone represented the passing of knowledge and wisdom. And that's why it's shown being pushed in front of themselves and being handed to other cultures. What's important about us establishing that is that we can then take that understanding and apply it to other symbols because they're related. And that's how this works, is we can take related symbols and allow us to help us expand to understand what they all mean. So I'm gonna go ahead and guys, if you have anything to add, we're gonna keep moving between these symbols. I just have something quick to add. It's not necessarily off topic, but the wings on these Anunnaki beings, would that mean that they'd represent that they come from the stars or somewhere else from Earth? You're, that was an excellent question. That's one of the main points that we're gonna be talking about when we get to the depictions of the Anunnaki versus Kings, you're dead on. So essentially, I'll just describe that briefly before we get into it, but anytime, it doesn't matter when it is, this is what I've found. Anytime you have a depiction with a being with wings, it means that it's one of these higher dimensional Anunnaki-like, doesn't have to necessarily be the Anunnaki, but it's a being that's not mortal. It's a being that can, that's a multi-dimensional being that's not from here. They're from beyond our realm. Anything that's not a mortal human being here is depicted with wings, okay? It's like an ascended being, basically is what they, like an angel. But in this case, angel and demon is in many ways can overlap and as we'll describe here in a second. In many ways, they are like angels and demons at the same time. Some play different roles. Some were good, some were bad, and we'll get into that. Matthew, I have a quick question about the pine cone as well. Is that, I know the pope uses it. Is that depicted in any other religion as well or is that just kind of just- The mitre hat? No, the pine cone itself. The pine cone is absolutely, it's all around the world. We find it in Hindu cultures. We find it in Egyptian cultures. We find it all around the world as we get into, we're gonna get into in a second. The pine cone and the handbag is literally shared by every single area in the world we can establish that there were what we find evidence for lost civilizations. And that's why this is so important because these symbols that we find in all these different parts of the world where we also have megalithic structures and sophisticated things that were built that would have been impossible for a primitive culture with Bronze Age tools. We find these same symbols and that's what's so important about defining them because it allows us to say, ah, that's who influenced them so that to create those civilizations and that's why they're so similar to others. And excellent questions, guys. So that's where we're at now and what we have on the screen is probably the most debated of all the symbols that exist today is the symbol of the handbag. Now, I will fully admit when I first started studying this I thought it was some kind of a bag that may be held psychedelics to like psilocybin or something to help expand some culture's mind or something when they're in a church. I couldn't understand, but what is in that bag? You know, what are they providing? And there's been so many individuals have said, well, it represents technology, some kind of technology they had that helped them to build the civilization. And this is where I've come to and this is where I wanna try to lay down the definition I think makes the most sense to connect with the pineal gland. And it's gonna make more sense as we go along because we have depictions with all of them together in the next coming slides. So we'll put all this together in one place. So the handbag symbol has been shown in almost every single place that we have megalithic lost civilization imagery and structures around the world. We find these symbols, this handbag. Now on the left side is pillar 43 at Gobekli Tepe. So we see the same handbag symbol there, and that's in Turkey. Now the image in the middle is one of these Anunnaki images with the pine cone holding it out and then the handbag down below. The following one on the right is from Mexico, La Venta, Mexico with the Olmec. And you can see Cucucon-Quetzacatl up behind him with essentially an Olmec individual with a head of a serpent as well, like serpent head, remember holding and passing along a handbag. So what does this mean? What does it really represent? Well, think about what the previous symbol represented, the passing of knowledge, okay? The passing of knowledge to another individual, not just generic knowledge, higher knowledge, knowledge of everything. If you were to try to sit down and explain to someone everything to have them understand from a higher level, understand the balance of nature, understand consciousness, energy, understand the cosmos, understand how to create a civilization. All of these things come into, that's what's needed for an individual to be able to do what they've done throughout history in these empires. So what did the handbag represent them? The handbag was the tools needed to create a civilization. So if you sit down with someone and you are passing the pine cone of knowledge, you're just telling them something, you're telling them knowledge, you're having them understand like what I just described, the nature of reality, understanding energy, all those things, that's one thing, right? To have knowledge, to have it and understanding is one thing. But how do you create a civilization? How do you design a civilization? What are the blueprints for that civilization? What are the morals that would be laid down for that civilization? How is that civilization gonna be governed? What are the rules gonna be? That's what that symbol represents. It's the tools needed to create that entire civilization. So that's why you have a pine cone from the knowledge side and then here is coming right next to it. Holy, but notice he's not passing along, he's in some cases, he's passing along the pine cone and passing along the bag but in other cases he's holding it by his side as well. These individuals, they are the keepers of knowledge and the keepers of how to create civilizations. They're the ones that jump-started every major advanced sophisticated civilization we can around the world. When we see lost civilizations, this is where these influences came from. They came from those who are passing along knowledge through the pine cone and the tools to create civilizations around the world. And that's why we find these two depictions so closely used in nearly every depiction because what's the end game here? If you had an advanced group that wanted to design the infrastructure for a planet, design the infrastructure with cities for what people would do, for how to run the world, how to clear channels for river channels for agriculture, for how to map the heavens, you would need all of these different tools and knowledge to be able to do that. And that's what I really feel like these symbols represented when they're handing them down. But it goes even deeper too. And this is where it's a rabbit hole, it truly is. Before I go to the next slide guys and feel free to jump in if you wanna mention anything. I am kinda curious with the passing of the pine cone and the bag, I just don't understand why these civilizations are lost if they have the tools to become, do you think they would be the absolute rules of the world? Well, the big, big piece of the puzzle with that to understand and Chris is smiling over there is because we find ample evidence all around the world just so we can find evidence for these symbols being shown that there have been devastating catastrophes that have occurred on the earth and maybe not even just during one time period, but maybe as a part of a cyclical basis where maybe every 12,000 years it seems like some disaster occurs which is why they were so obsessed with mapping the heavens because they could understand not only the energy of the cosmos, but they could also map and understand when events are gonna happen, when, what time period is occurring at a larger level, looking at it more on the basis on the solar system level, not on just looking at our understanding of time. So these civilizations were wiped out collectively around the world based on series of cataclysms we find. And we know that based on erosion we find around like the Sphinx enclosures when we look at Greenland ice core samples we see a very, very devastating event that occurred between about 12,800 and about 10,800 years ago over a multi, potentially over a thousand year period of multiple events that seem to have wiped out all of these civilizations that just left either just their megalithic structures that they built with no writing at all or in some cases these cuneiform tablets which was the ingenious way that they knew that they could preserve a message etched into stone or clay so that it would survive. That's why there's so few writings from any of these cultures anywhere in the world because if they had used paper or anything digital none of it would have survived. And so when someone asked about, well, how do you know Atlantis was real? We don't have any of the writings from Atlantis really. We have very little. We have anything that was either channeled or came through ancient Egypt because Egypt was the only connection that we can find back to Atlantis when Solon went there and then told Plato about the story of Atlantis. So all we have E. Willie is basically these scraps and these little breadcrumbs left behind from what is disasters that we can't even wrap our heads around in terms of human history for events that have occurred for what happened to them to be able to try to understand what this story is. And that's why it's so difficult because we're talking about a culture, E. Willie and JP that disappeared in many cases well over 10,000 years ago. Right. Now, Matt, just to add to that these cataclysms, it's possible, we've discussed this before, that these beings may have even been responsible or partly responsible for the causing of these cataclysms just because they weren't happy with the way things were going or one of them wasn't happy with the way things were going, right? Exactly. We actually find that it doesn't seem like it's just random at all. In fact, that the best example that someone can go read and those tablets are in my latest book and on my website, TheStageOfTime.com read the Audra Hasis, at least the sections I've put on there. It's absolutely mind blowing. These great Anunnaki who many, most of society thinks is just a myth, isn't even real anymore, having these direct conversations with one another about how unbalanced and unruly humanity has become. And some of them are angry over how society here and humans were given all this knowledge and it became unbalanced and the populations became too big and they had these discussions where they call themselves the Council of 12 or the great Anuna. They say they have the assembly of the Anuna where they get together and they decide what events are gonna happen, are gonna occur, sort of like what the elites do with the Bilderberg group today. They get into this big meeting group together and it's like they decided what they wanted and what they decided was that this experiment that had been created here in consciousness in a mortal body with the divine gifts of these divine beings put into this mortal mammal body that we really are where we're a primitive but also advanced at the same time which is why we have so many primitive urges but they decided they wanted to wipe the whole experiment out and start over again. So they discussed how they wanted to allow this disaster to occur at its maximum level and not try to prevent it at all to just allow this event to occur to essentially wipe out all of these, you could call them creations on the planet that had become unbalanced. And it's a long story. It gets into how the Anunnaki interbred with humans and created these giant kings which actually is important to bring that up because as we go along and we show these murals, you're gonna see those depictions of those kings and what we can talk about that as we get there. The bottom line is there was an attempt made by them to wipe this whole thing out, this whole experiment out and start over again. And that's why when it was unsuccessful only a few individuals survived those events, humanity had it like almost like a great reset. That's why Graham Hancock says we're a species with amnesia because we essentially had to restart and start over again and we forgot and had complete disconnection to all of this knowledge and all of these ancient civilizations that came before us and we were like children trying to put the pieces together with no parents to guide us. And so that's where we're at right now. I hope that helps answer your question. Perfect. Thank you so much. So guys, this is what we're gonna go some high level stuff now for those who love high level. In Gobekli Tepe, which is in the Anatolia region of Turkey, you see pillar 43, which is the most important of all the pillars there. Now these pillars are massive, massive megalithic pillars that are built out of a single stone. They're these huge T-shaped pillars and they weigh more than 20 tons each and they have all these strange depictions on them. Okay? Now, some have speculated they're ancient ice age animals and that it depicts some cosmic impact from a meteorite or a comet or something. But I wanna bring some different theories into this based on what I've studied here and looked at. The first thing to mention about pillar 43 is it has the handbag symbol at the very top, meaning the tools needed to create a civilization, right? So they're worshiping that knowledge and those tools that created their civilization. Why is that so interesting and important? I've mentioned this before, but I wanna mention it again for those who don't know. Gobekli Tepe is one of the most important sites, not for its sophistication with megalithic giant blocks like we see across Peru or in Egypt, not for that reason, but because it contains certain levels of archeological evidence that helps us to really understand the story well to back up this information. What you find in Gobekli Tepe is that as they've uncovered different layers going down and they found that this entire astronomical temple, which is what this was, was buried under mountains of debris, deliberately buried hidden, closed off. When they finally got down and dug in and they found this temple, they found that there were very peculiar layers of organic material within other layers that went down deep below that. And they were able to radiocarbon date that organic material to 11,800 years ago for this civilization in Gobekli Tepe that made that temple. So we know that, we know that that base value. And we also know that that was the time period that was a lot of violent earth changes were happening based on ice core samples, the same destructive time period during the younger dry ass period around 12,000 years ago. When they went down and covered those layers, remember, we're told that every civilization is simply nomadic hunter-gatherers. And they just, in terms of Gobekli Tepe that what mainstream archeologists tell us is that this group just happened to decide to stop hunting and hang out there for a few years and build the most sophisticated astronomical temple ever built. That makes a lot of sense, right? But what makes more sense is when you go down through the layers, you find that in the layers right below where this construction was done, we do find hunter-gatherer evidence, extensive hunter-gatherer evidence. There were hunter-gatherers moving through this region, but then right above it, within a very, very short amount of material only within years, say, of a material that could have been accumulated, we see all the sophistication that comes out of nowhere. Agriculture starts getting practiced. Cities are built. We find sophisticated society has emerged on this site out of nowhere, seemingly out of nowhere. And then what do we find on that pillar? Those handbags shown like if you were, let's say you were a hunter-gatherer group, you were living in that region, hunting wild animals and just living off the land. And all of a sudden this group of enlightened individuals comes in and teaches you all of this wisdom and knowledge. They completely change the structure of your society. They give you all these tools. They give you understandings of, they teach you how to farm. They teach you about the cosmos. They teach you about consciousness. They give you all this information and knowledge. They give you the tools to create those civilizations and then they leave. What are you gonna do? You're gonna worship them. You're gonna worship them, either them, where they came from, or even just celestial understandings of energy and we'll get into that in a second. But now look what's below the handbag symbols. We see a vulture, okay? And we see a vulture who's got a circular round thing above his arm. And some have speculated that's a comet or an asteroid. Now look below the vulture, you see a scorpion. Now let me break this down. What I wanna explain here and describe is, notice on the left, you have the handbag symbol in the top and then you have the vulture and the scorpion. Now if we look up in the cosmos, we find that we see strikingly similar similarities with what's known as Cygnus. It's the constellation of Cygnus and Scorpius represent those depictions. And now they're in a very, look at the alignment of them. Not only are they shown on this cosmological chart, they're in the exact same position to each other. Look at Cygnus and look at Scorpius below it. Now at the top, Cygnus is connected to a star. Look at, see the hand or the wing of the vulture. There's a star right above its wing. That star happens to be called Deneb. And it's one of the brightest stars, not in our region, but the entire galaxy. One of the most illuminating stars in all of the galaxy happens to be right above Cygnus, but not just a coincidence. Think about the symbol of the cross getting into symbols. The ancient cross, the most ancient symbol of all, which by the way predates Christian religions by thousands of years. In fact, these Anunnaki symbols that we're gonna show in these murals, they have the symbol of the cross in many different places. It's one of the most ancient symbols of all. And to put this to bed too, the cross represents the crossing of energy, mind, body, and soul, the three ingredients for humans to reach ascension. That's what has been taught all throughout history. It's still the teachings of Jesus in the Roman Christian Bible. It's, there is good, there's good information there, but it originally came from a much earlier place. It represented the crossing of energy. And it just so happens that Cygnus, it represents a constellation of a cross. And one of the brightest stars in our entire galaxy happens to be the top of the cross, which would represent essentially ascension. I find that incredibly interesting. So we find Cygnus and Scorpius in this depiction at Gobekli Tepe with handbags right above it. Now, I'm not gonna speculate too deep on that. I'd like people to think about that for a little bit. What does that mean? Does that mean that those beings who provided does it mean that they're the ones who brought those tools? Those are endless questions that go into that. But I wanna leave people with that understanding of what's shown on that and how those handbag symbols are right above that. Now, there's one more incredibly interesting piece of the puzzle. Just so happens that Cygnus and Scorpius are in what's known as the dark rift of our galaxy. The dark rift is an area of the galaxy that has the highest amount of dark energy of our entire galaxy is in that location. For those who don't know what dark energy is, it's when you think of a system of balance as above all, as above as below, you find when you look at something like the underworld and heaven higher and lower dimensions, there's always balance no matter what. Dark matter would be like the equivalent of the underworld for our planet, but in the galaxy. It is the other side of matter. Everything is always balanced. Does that have some kind of a connection with the Anunnaki? I don't know, but I think that's incredibly important. And I would encourage others out there to maybe investigate this a little bit and see if it goes anywhere. Because I think it's really, really interesting that that just happens to be the case. So you guys, I don't know if you have anything to add to that. I just think it's very fascinating that it's become more and more evident that astrology and astrithiology is prevalent throughout even the Bible, but it's taken from earlier writings and earlier scriptures. And that a lot of these murals and these ancient tablets and cuneiform writings are describing what's going on in the stars. And it's amazing how they had this much advanced knowledge of the stars, especially when you look at Gobekli Tepe like you were just showing us. I think that's awesome. That's fascinating. Yeah, exactly. Just like you said. So here we have evidence for hunter-gatherer civilization there earlier, primitive, and then they become incredibly advanced at a nowhere based on soil, archeological soil layers with farming and all these things come out of nowhere. And at the same time, they create these pillars to map all the constellations in the heavens and the zodiac cycles. Where did they get that knowledge from? I would challenge anyone in the mainstream to answer that question for me. How do you just get that out of nowhere? How does knowledge come out of nowhere, especially if you're a primitive culture? I think it's impossible. It has to be the influences of something else. That to me is the missing link in all of this. And I think there's still clearly when you look at Gobekli Tepe and Cygnus and how it's located in the dark rift. And there's clearly more to this story than we fully understand. And I think there's a lot more to the on anarchy, frankly, than anyone really understands. I think their complexity should never be underestimated. Now guys, this is probably, I would have to argue my favorite depiction of any mirror in the world. I have sat and stared at this. And if those are interested in this, in this copy, you can find a high-deaf version of this on my website, thestageoftime.com. I've got some high-definition images on there. If you want to click it, it zooms right in, you can just stare at it just like me for hours and hours. It may seem silly, but something like this can answer almost everything. Think about all the stuff we've talked about. What does the pine cone mean? What does the handbag mean? They're right here, but we get a lot more information than just that. Now, guys, I'm gonna break this whole thing down. And this is where I think is gonna help connect a lot of pieces for people, a lot of these clues that remain hidden. Now, like a puzzle piece to try to put together this lost story of history, you take it one piece at a time. So once you know the pine cone means the passing of knowledge and wisdom, you put that piece in the place. Then you understand how they're holding the handbag. You put that piece into place. And like Chris said, if you have the understanding that beings that have wings, it's supposed to represent gods, ascended beings that are from other dimensions. You put that piece into place too. And what do you get? You get a depiction here that tells an entire story. It tells an entire story of what occurred in the past to create sophisticated civilizations. Now let me break it down. Notice there's two individuals in the center that are surrounded by what's called the tree of life. And then there's two individuals on the outside. And then above the tree of life, you have the winged solar disk with Anu in the center, okay? Now Anu is like running the wheels of this tree, this life, like balance. And the more you learn about the Anunnaki, the more you find that they're obsessed with maintaining balance. They did a lot of bad stuff here, but because of that, they had to do certain roles and responsibilities to regain that balance. And that's one of the obsessions they always have, no matter what you look at. It's why the tree of life is always depicted. This balance of life here, this balance of nature, the creation of life, it's all balanced by, according to them, the Anunnaki are in charge of that. That's their responsibility, okay? Now I used to think that this was supposed to depict all of the Anunnaki. These were four Anunnaki, that's not right. That's incorrect. And it took me a long time to understand that. The way you know that is not just by the wings. Look at what they're wearing on their heads. Notice that very carefully. Besides wings, the Anunnaki, if they're shown with their physical head, not a serpenter and eagle, they're always shown the same way. They have horns, ringed horns around their helmet, and they always have three. That's a status symbol for the Anunnaki. That means that the two individuals on the outer side, and it doesn't really mean on either side. Remember, it represents both sides, right? Balance, the four, the two on either end and the two kings in the center. Now notice, the kings are the same height as the Anunnaki. And like I said, I think some things are supposed to be literal, right? Some things are symbolic, but other things are literal. They're the same height as the Anunnaki. Now look, the Anunnaki aren't reptilian. Remember, we're created in their image, not the other way around. We are them. So therefore, look at all the Mesopotamian kings that are depicted all throughout history. When we look at usher, when we look at King Hammurabi, when we look at Sennacherib, when we look at Ashurbanapal, notice they look just like the Anunnaki, like they're imitating them, right? They have the long locks of hair all braided, but what do they not have? Notice what's on their head. They don't have any horns. They have a completely different type of symbol on their head, and they don't have handbags or pine cones. You see that? It's telling you a story. So let me break this whole thing down. The Anunnaki had bloodline king offspring based on the, which are called the Nephilim, okay? We know that when we look into the Genesis, we look into all kinds of book of Enoch, all kinds of ancient stories from the past. It's extensively talks about that, that giants were once here, that ancient kings really weren't what we thought they were, they were actually like bloodline Anunnaki kings from directly from their bloodline. And so what their obsession here was to have their seed rule over the society. So these kings are direct bloodline kings of the Anunnaki. They're being given the knowledge and wisdom to create civilization, okay? And that's why they're depicted in the center around the Tree of Life. And notice what they're carrying. In their left arm, they have what's known as the masculine rod of kingship, of ruling. And it was always males that did the majority of these ancient civilizations were males. There were some civilizations in parts of Africa that were run by females. And there were some areas of Africa had female kings and priests and all. And that was an example in areas, but in majority of the time, it were these bloodline males, these masculine rulers that would take over in rural society. And that's really what's to being depicted here in the center. So they have the masculine rod and then look what they're doing, just like you see they're pointing the way. It is their way and or nothing. They are handing down the rules and responsibilities that the Anunnaki gave to them, almost like an emissary that works for someone that's very powerful. They're the ones who are supposed to then use all of that knowledge, the tools to create a civilization, the knowledge, the laws handed down them to them, specific laws. It was all under one umbrella called kingship. Everywhere is the same phrase, kingship was lowered, kingship was lowered here, kingship was lost then re-lowered. And we're gonna get into that in a second. But essentially you have the Anunnaki having these bloodline kings that they feel are superior that should rule over the rest of society. They're telling them the way to create those civilizations and how to govern them. And in the center, you have the Zorianastrian symbol with Anu who's basically pulling the wheels. He's almost like the bike of life. He's the one who's in charge of all of the Anunnaki in balance. So when you put the whole thing together, it's like the Anunnaki are creating a specific type of kingship civilization for our societies here in their image, in their likeness and their mentality, okay? And that's what I think is so interesting though if we go back a little bit, just notice how often they're depicted with an eagle head though, not a regular head and not a serpent head. It's actually quite rare. You do see it like when I showed you in La Venta, the Olmec, how they show Kukukon coming up with a serpent. Yes, it's there, but it's much more rare. What does that mean? It means that the majority of the time, the Anunnaki when they were creating these civilizations created them to be war-like empires, which is why throughout history, it's always been governed by war because it's the easiest way to control civilizations and keep them in a lower state of consciousness. There's always been this battle of the Anunnaki where they didn't want us to become greater than them. And that's what a lot of these struggles have been. Now, before I move on, guys, do you guys wanna ask anything or any questions about this? Because so many are like, what are the Anunnaki look like? And they're trying to piece together this whole story, but I feel like just there's so many answers in this mural itself. Yeah, I have something quick, but I'm gonna let Truth of Theory, you guys have anything before I go ahead? Go ahead and go first, cause I have two questions. So we've gone over a lot of the symbolism. I'm really curious as to your thoughts on what looks like a wristwatch on each of these beings' hands. What do you think that is? Is it just some sort of ornamental or is it something like a technology? I'm really glad you brought that up cause I meant to talk about that and I didn't. And so thank you, I appreciate it. Like I said before, everything has meaning. I mean everything. For those people who love this kind of stuff, go pull this image up on my website and just stare at it. Because if you look at it, everything from the necklace they're wearing, what kind of clothing they're wearing, how they're facing, what is being shown. Notice how the Anunnaki are showing their legs, but the kings aren't. Powerful muscles, right? Everything has meaning. Everything represents something in these images. And so you brought up a great point. What about these watches? These depictions of watches. Well, notice how if you're clever enough, you'll see that they have a watch on each hand but they're facing different directions. I mean, they're not facing different directions, they're facing the same direction, they're facing our direction, which wouldn't make any sense. If you were gonna wear two watches, you wouldn't have them face your inner, one face your inner wrist and one face the other one. It wouldn't make any sense cause it has nothing to do with the literal meaning. It's showing you that in each arm, each hand, they have this same symbol on their watch. Now what is that symbol? That's been something that I've thought about quite a bit. What it looks like is like a flower of life, but also like a sundial. And what I think it represents is time because I've often thought a lot about how the Anunnaki are obsessed with time. They're obsessed with when events occur at a specific moment. That's what they talk about all the time, to have something happen, to influence someone, to change the narrative of a timeline. I think that what this represents is, and that's what I call the Anunnaki, they're like the keepers of knowledge. Now, notice the kings are wearing them as well. I think it's a depiction to show that they're like essentially the hierarchal keepers of knowledge and time. They are the ones who are essentially in charge of everything. And it's amazing to me that if you go in to look at the ancient Egyptian cultures and you look at the Mesopotamian cultures, you find that they actually measured time differently. And when you measure time differently, it has an enormous effect on how we perceive moments, how when calendars are created, how long things are, how that impacts our lives. So I think time is an enormously important component for us to understand, especially if you're being that's maybe even outside time, as hard as that is to wrap our heads around. Awesome, yeah. I have a couple of observations. I don't know, not really questions, but I didn't even notice the watch thing. And I've been staring at this thing nonstop since you put it up and I've been analyzing every little part of it and I never even noticed the watch, the wrist thing. That's really cool. I feel like every couple of minutes I'm seeing something new on this picture. It is fascinating. That's what's so cool is that because everything means something, it gives you like a clue if you can figure out what it is, especially if they all connect and add up to the same conclusion. And you say, wow, that's what they were trying to say. For sure. I'm staring at it as almost like an art piece. And the vibe I get is that the kings and the spirits or the whatever you're knocking next to them or their higher versions of themselves, like they're almost displaying their higher purpose to their higher version of themselves that's given them the knowledge, maybe like a trip type thing, a DMT type. I don't know. That's just where my brain went with it. Well, no, it's actually important because this may not be a literal physical thing. We got to understand that these interactions with these kings, maybe it happens in some psychedelic experience. Maybe it happens in some meditative state in some powerful shamanic way in some temple. We don't fully understand the role that the Anunnaki play with influencing our world. We don't find actually a lot of places where it describes them in an actual physical way here. They're often just influencing us from other ways. And so you might be right is that this may be a not a literal way to show their influences, but more of just them influencing them with providing them knowledge and things. We don't know. We don't fully understand these interactions with them or how they interact with our world. That's so awesome. You had some questions though? Yeah, I noticed that it seems like they always have pine cone on the right and bag on the left. Is there a reason for that? That's another one that I would love people to dig into. I haven't actually looked into why this specifically is that order, but I'm sure that has a very specific reason for why they would do that. That's another great point. I'm glad that people are noticing that. But I guess when I'm looking at it, it looks like it alternates, doesn't it? It looks like the images on the outer end are mirrors of the other where the image on the right of the Anunnaki in the back, he's got the pine cone in his right hand, whereas the one on the end on the left has the pine cone on his right hand, but he's a mirror image, so he's opposite. So they're showing like the balance in the mirror of each of one another. That must be why it's four, because it's supposed to show the totality of everything, I guess. And the second question, I noticed that the guys on the outside have way more stripes on their clothes. And I wonder if that has anything to do with if they're just, I don't know, maybe it's just a ranking thing maybe, maybe they won more wars or I don't know. I imagine it has to do with their status. Most of these types of things represent status of some kind. That's one of the big obsessions. That's why you will never in any depiction that I've seen, ever seen a king that has even one horn on his helmet. The horns were exclusive for the Anunnaki only. It was only the royal Anuna they call themselves who are allowed to have that. But see what kind of gets me is like the guy's on the outside, the guy on the right has a bunch of stripes on his shoulder, the guy on the left doesn't. I don't know, their clothes just seem to be different all around. So that's what makes me. You are right. With the mirroring, you know. You're right. Those kings in the center are not the same. And that's in fact, the Anunnaki are much more similar on either end than the two kings are. So again, for those who love this kind of stuff, there's more to be understood about this. I completely acknowledge that. I feel like maybe we've just sort of understood the beginnings of what this truly could represent because there's so much in here, but you are right. Those kings have different, they have slightly different types of outfits on. And if one looks like it has metals across it or depictions that might even represent the sun and the moon on them, which we see a lot. But we've just scratched the surface for truly understanding these influences of the Anunnaki and these bloodline kings. I don't know if we're ever gonna fully understand it. How do you understand something that you weren't there for to understand? To me, I try to remind myself of that all the time is that we try to make these hypothesis and these try to understand this stuff, but we may never fully understand it. But I do feel like we've made some significant inroads to maybe start to wrap our heads around what was really occurring back then. And I think also it could be the differences between each side. We had, like you mentioned earlier, as above so below, we have Enlil and Enki who had different ideals of ways to govern and what they wanted out of humanity or their creation. So that could be a part of it as well, a kind of as above so below type thing. I think you're right. And maybe that's also why we find why they show them with eagle heads sometimes. Because to me, the only reason you would ever show that is if you were creating that civilization strictly based on not on balance, but on that war conquering mentality, who would be the only reason you'd wanna do that. You guys ready to move the next one now? Yes. Okay, so I wanna lay down the next layer for us to understand all of this. Remember, so we talked about how kingship is handed down. Kingship is handed down. Over and over again, it talks about that. The rules and the laws that would govern a society. Well, those rules and laws we find all throughout history and they've been known by many different names. And I wanna just, before I mentioned, of course, the Sumerian Kingless, which I'll go read in a second, but there are others that some people may be familiar with. We find that whenever a society is created through kingship, there's always these very specific morality clauses and laws that are laid down ahead of time. And if those become broken and that society falls into a completely different type of mindset, they call, they say that kingship is essentially lost and they have to re-lower it again. It's like this pure model of a civilization. Now, I wanna, I mentioned a couple of those for those who have studied this material, but the code of Hammurabi is a giant stella, a uniform tablet that mentions, Hammurabi talks all about. He says, Anu and Belle called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince. And he goes on to mention how he's supposed to govern the shepherd, the people and be their ruler, but in a way where he is absolute, where he has all knowledge and they are supposed to do everything that he says. This higher, super hierarchy structure was the way that it was supposed to be. Now, the code of Hammurabi are basically the laws and the rules that are laid down. You could find that entire list of rules and laws that were laid down. And the same thing is true in Egypt. They're called the 42 laws of Mott, M-A-A-T. Now, Mott was a consort of Thoth, one of the Egyptian gods of wisdom and knowledge. So that was his consort and it's called the 42 laws of Mott. And it later became known as the 42 negative confessions in the book of the dead for those who wanna track when, where those went along the way, as well as we, of course, people know in Abrahamic religions the 10 commandments of Moses. So we have all these different rules and laws that were laid down and handed down to us for how we should create civilization. Now, on the right side of the screen, you're seeing the cuneiform tablet known as the Sumerian King List. That was found in Nippur, Iraq in the 1800s. And what it says in it that's so interesting is it mentions the reasons on why they did it and in which cities were first. And I wanna just read a brief part of this so you guys can connect this, but it essentially starts by stating that after the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was an erudu. The first sentence it says, the first thing it says, now think about it that after the kingship descended from heaven. So it's not like someone just thought this up. The specific design was handed down from heaven, higher dimensions, beyond earth, whatever you wanna say to create those civilizations, right? And it says, after kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was an erudu. What we find on every other tablet, like the myth of Adapa and all the other ones, erudu, genesis, they all say that erudu was the first city ever created on earth. And I love to mention that that specific site, if it's the first civilization ever created, which I believe it was, one of the most important civilizations in history is remaining sitting in the desert with no one having access to it, no guards, nothing that's been, no archeological digs have ever occurred at that site. There was one Oxford University investigation that was done there, where they walked around the site and looked at it, but then the whole thing was abandoned, never visited again. And it really speaks to me about this, the importance of that site connecting to these ancient, ancient stories of the past that is so disruptive to this story that they have to hide it. It's the only way that they can do it. So it goes on to say that an erudu, aluem became the king and ruled for 28,000 years. Then it says, then the next king ruled for 30,000 years. Then erudu fell and the kingship was taken to Bad Tibera. And then it says in Bad Tibera, it mentions that anem luana was king. And then it talks about how Bad Tibera fell and then the kingship was brought to the rock and then the rock fell and the kingship was finally brought to Sherupak at the end. Okay? Why is that so important? Well, Sherupak is the last city mentioned on every single one of these kings lists before this great catastrophe occurred when it was all wiped out and then they had to start over again. That's what's so fascinating about this is that these tablets, they give us a record for what cities existed at what time, when kingship was lowered, who ruled there? And then gives us this divide to understand when this catastrophe occurred or catastrophes. And then when kingship had to be re-lowered again, that's what it literally says. After it says in Sherupak, Ubara Tutu became king. He ruled for 18,600 years. Then it ends that section of the tablet and it says, then the flood swept over. Okay? Now, Ubara Tutu was the father of Atrahasis who wrote the tablets of the Atrahasis describing the flood, which would make all the sense to people understanding this considering he was technically the last king of Sherupak after his father, even though it doesn't mention it. You can find it in some translations, which means that he was the last king, the last bloodline king connecting back to the Anunnaki in that city before the Deluge came. And what happened? Many may know the story of Noah. Same story, you find the Epic of Gilgamesh. Zayasudra is the same individual with a different name used. He was this king that was warned by Anki to build a great craft with bitumen, to seal it all, to survive this event with his family and his genetics. And then he was seen on top of Mount Ararat or wherever it actually was with this craft and Enlil was furious that a human had survived the catastrophe. You can read that right in the Atrahasis tablet that I have on the website and it's in my work. The point is, we know that kingship ended at that point. That city, the old world as we knew was wiped out. And then we get another tablet that explains what happened next. We get the legend of Atana, which is a king that came after. And we know that because we find out in the tablets that Atana lived at a later time. And it states that Atana was the first king of the entire new world to create the first civilization here after the events, the deluge occurred. And I want to read that quote from that tablet for those who haven't heard it yet to help explain this. And it says in the legend of Atana, they planned a city that God's laid its foundations. They planned the city of Kish. The Ajiji laid the brickwork. Let him be their people's shepherd. Let Atana be their architect. The great Anunnaki gods or dainters of destinies sat taking their counsel concerning the land. The creators of all four regions, establishers of all physical form. So here we have that these events that we see evidence all around the world in Egypt and in Peru, we see vitrification of these stones which means melting. Thousands of degree temperatures would have had to occurred for that to happen. Some kind of a massive solar outburst combining with disrupting the electrical magnetic grid of the earth, moving plate tectonics, volcanoes and deluges from tsunamis. We can't even begin to understand the level of destruction that these events had but it states in this clearly that they had to re-lower kingship again to this city of Kish, which means that Kish is part of the post-Diluvian world. And then we look at the city of Eridu and that's part of the pre-Diluvian world. That's how we separate all these different places and when kingship was lowered and who lowered it and then how all this came to be. Well, essentially to conclude guys, the civilizations, the Anunnaki eventually left. It states in the Epic of Gilgamesh that after this deluge occurred most of them departed and never came back. Some of them influenced the early civilizations but they abandoned them later on and that's why we see this attempt to restart lowering kingship and restarting some of these civilizations. We see that in places like Machu Picchu you'll see that this slightly more sophisticated building right in between, sandwiched in between but then it goes, it gets very, very primitive with brick and mortar on top. Telling us that there was an attempt to restart these civilizations but it ultimately failed and I think that's probably a combination of some environmental effects and some other things but guys, that's how I see this story, how it's gone and that's what I see the evidence point towards. Go ahead and if you have any other questions or you wanna expand on this discussion at all. I just think that this was a fascinating presentation and gave me a whole lot more to think about when it comes to the Anunnaki and you were talking about how the cultures that came after these really highly advanced civilizations just built on top of what was already there and kind of just respected what was there just built their own, tried to mimic what they saw but wasn't quite able to recreate and we still can't even come close to recreating some of those really ancient advanced pre-flood civilization technologies, whatever they were using to build these megalithic structures, we can't even recreate now so I think there's a lot more that we have to learn about when it comes to the construction of this. Well said, I completely agree, Chris. I was just thinking if I ever make it through a zombie apocalypse or anything like that I hope somebody hands me a pine cone and a handbag. Yeah, I mean, it brings up big questions about where we're going. Having everything written on paper and digital would we be remembered at all if some disaster occurred and let's just say 2,000, 3,000 years went by what will be left from us? Just a bunch of particles of plastic floating in the ocean still and maybe like a couple of little remnants here or there how would they view our civilization? We certainly wouldn't be remembered from being a super high knowledgeable civilization as much as they found some reality show DVDs or something somewhere. That would be embarrassing for species. Supposedly is the Mount Rushmore Vault in South Dakota has a lot of natural, not natural historical history stuff that they were preserving there. Don't know how much truth there is to that but I'm sure when Donald Trump was president he went in there and added some fluff to it. I was the best president ever. I think it's definitely places where they're holding stuff and either hiding it or protecting it or in many cases protecting might be an excuse but there are definitely seed banks and there are definitely places that are being developed because I think in many ways these powerful individuals at the top they know very well that these cycles are occurring and I really do think that that's why a lot of the things that are going on in our skies and around us are happening today because they wanna quietly prevent if they can the next cycle of disasters to keep this whole thing going here, to keep this illusion going for us to keep doing our thing to make it seem like we're in some strange reality show even though we're incredible co-conscious co-creator beings that are surrounded by an incredible cosmos that we seem to constantly forget and be distracted by these little things that keep coming along. Distractions play a huge factor in our species nowadays for sure. I have two kind of off the wall questions. The first one is do you think the Anunnaki would return at any point? Do you think there's any desire for them to come back to our planet? It's such a difficult question to answer because then I guess you'd have to define what would it mean if they left? Because I don't think everything that I've understood about them, how they discuss so often that they and they call themselves the ordainers of destinies and the creators of fate or the determiners of fate, they seem like they're obsessed with things happening at a certain time to be part of like a timeline. Every time I look at that, it makes me think that they must exist outside of what we perceive as time because the way that they influence us just seems that they just come and go. And then huge gaps go by where it's like where these lost children that then lose the influences of our parents and then we just become, we just act out and do all these stupid things. And not that their influences were always positive. I think it's actually quite the opposite. But in many cases, they were positive influences. I think when I read the 42 laws of Mahat and the Code of Hammurabi, if you read those, they're truly beautiful. They're divine words handed down of perfection. But at other times, it's very clear that we've been used just for the means of creating empires to fight one another, to have territories and rule over other. So it's difficult to say what has been their direct influences and what is just us corrupting ourselves through powerful individuals. It's tough to make that distinction. But the only evidence we have, there's only one thing of any tablet I've read that mentions them leaving. There's only one thing. And it's in one of the most popular tablets of all in terms of popularity for tablets. It's in the Epic of Gilgamesh, but it's buried. And it states when Gilgamesh finally meets Atrahasis, that's who he goes to meet, who he doesn't call him that though, his alternate name of Untapishti, which is what's so confusing about so many people is that they have to understand what the names are in different time periods. But anyway, he goes to meet him and he asks him about how he gained immortality. Because you find out in the Death of Bill of Games that that King of Sherupak was the last, the Anunnaki state that he was the last human to ever obtain immortality, ever again. And that they would never permit a human to ever have immortality, which means that the Anunnaki are immortal. That's what that means. But anyway, he states that he asked Untapishti, he asked him how he obtained immortality. And Untapishti tells him this great story. He tells him about how Sherupak is an ancient city much older than we could ever understand from a totally different time period. And that he says that the gods were once in it. That's the exact words he uses. He says it's so old that the gods were once in it. And I think that that is incredible to wrap our heads around because it really proves that they're not just something that connected on a conscious level, but they did come here and they were here in physical form at some point. And but then it states that when the deluge swept through and everything was destroyed, it says that the Anunnaki were so embarrassed by their decision because it was way worse than they imagined. It was more difficult than they imagined, I guess, as well. The decision to wipe everything out that they departed here, it says. It says they departed here. That's the only thing we have. But then in the legend of Atana, it states that the gods laid its foundations and created Kish. So some had to have decided to come back at some point. Cause I think if you, well, you say, well, man, I mean, Sherupak was destroyed by the flood. How much time when it occurred in between before the first city was created, we don't know. We don't know how much time lapsed. I'd say thousands of years. And that's a long time. That could represent the entire course of human civilization as we know it, whereas that much time might have lapsed in between them deciding to lower kingship to Kish again and try again, to try over again. So there's still a lot of unanswered questions we have for that time period, but we're starting to put the pieces together. And I think when you look at the question of, you know, how you were saying some of it is beautiful teachings and good. And some of it is warlike and kind of brutal. I think it just speaks to the duality of their nature in general. You know, if you look at Inki and Inlil, they had two different ideals of what they wanted for humanity. And I think that could be what it all goes back to. It's like, you know, they has above so below thing that just the duality of the nature of reality really, you know. I think that's spot on. But what's really interesting though about it is that even though they did represent duality here, the reason it seemingly became unbalanced was that when you read about the roles, they call them the lots. They cast lots for where they should rule. But it doesn't mean necessarily just regions. That's what's so wild about it. When you read about it, it's not just that they were given certain regions of the planet to rule, which they were. You find that in a lot of places where you look at different gods and you can connect them back to the Sumerian gods and then you see the influences that they had in each place. You can say, oh, that's who was influencing so-and-so. But it gets even deeper than that. It seems that according to the Audraesis that they actually became almost fulfilling certain aspects of our reality. So Inki was forced into becoming the positive polarity of ruling the underworld. And his counterpart in the underworld was Nurgal. For those who want to study this, Nurgal's concert was Orishtigal. So if someone was like, if Inki's in the underworld because he's known as Satan, that's what Satan is just so everyone understands. That's why the Trident is the inverted representation of the pitchfork is the inverted representation of his Trident, Inki's Trident. He had to rule in the underworld. Remember, as above, so below. You have to have something positive in the underworld and something positive above and something negative below and something negative above. That's how balance happens. So Inki was forced to go to the underworld to hold, it says he's supposed to control the balance there. And he ended up acting out and doing other roles he wasn't supposed to in providing wisdom to knowledge to humanity because they were his creations. But it just gets into this, like you said, it's because Enlil was put in charge of essentially like humanity. He's in charge of this physical world here and because he hated humanity. And you can see that in the secret book of John how he is this Yaldoboth character that is jealous. He says he's a wicked God who's jealous of humanity and never thinks we should essentially should have been created in the first place. He says in states that his decision was to cast us down to the lowest state and keep us in the most primitive state possible because he's jealous and he's worried that we could essentially become greater than him. It's this incredible story that goes all the way back to the very beginning, but essentially Chris is right. That's why there's so many different governing styles and mentalities here because there's just these different levels of duality that have been fighting over being the one that controls everything. That balance thing you talk about has always been a big deal. Am I growing up to you? My dad's always enforced the balance ideology and I find that part very alluring about this whole concept and theory. My daughter, my youngest has been asking a lot about death lately, she's seven years old and she holds a lot of dread for anything that dies. I'm like, you can't carry all the weight of something that dies. And my wife and I explained to her the other day too that every time something dies right now, another thing is being born. Like I was in the hospital recently and they play a song when a baby's born through the whole hospital. So like people are dying in the hospital, babies are being born. There's always that balance in everything in life. It's so fascinating. Yeah, and I think that we need to look at it differently and not be, I think our fear of mortality is one of the things that holds us back so much. One of the most significant factors if we understood that we're internal conscious energy that comes back and has an incarnation into another body again and redo, redone it again because remember, energy can't be destroyed. It simply has to change state and we are internal conscious energy experiencing this physical world here. We shouldn't be so afraid to die. The only thing we should be afraid to die about is that we haven't fulfilled certain things that we need to right now. That's what I would tell people is that you should be honored to be here and during this incredible time when so much is changing. We're turning from Pisces over to Aquarius in a completely different age, moving this messy transition to eventually supposedly like every culture has said reaching a time where you finally return to balance, return to higher knowledge at this golden age. And that means that right now, even though time doesn't really exist like we think it does, the moment we're in right now in the fact that you're here to take part in it is the most incredible thing in the world. So instead of being like, oh, I'm afraid to die and come back and do this over again. So then just contribute now then. See that as maybe a way to push you a little bit extra to really maybe allow it so that you can think to yourself, how will I be remembered? How, what have I contributed in this time that's so important right now to this entire story to fuel this movement forward of consciousness? You know, what will I be remembered for in this time? Because that's what we are guys. We are just conscious co-creators here who are trying to figure things out but we're supposed to be contributing in a positive way to this, to our society and the direction we're going. And we get constantly distracted by all the things that bombard us. And it's really easy for us to get lost in the physical reality that exists here and to lose track that we have these other responsibilities we're supposed to take and do here. That's why I like to remind others of what we really are. So we don't forget it and we allow it to never be forgotten ever again. Yeah, very well said. And for anyone that doesn't think we're living in a critical time that I think it's pretty important time to be here. And I think that everybody here at this time has an important job to do. And it's all about trying to find out what that is because things are changing very rapidly. And a lot of people are scared of it. And I think that if we look at it the right way it could go in a good direction other than this dystopia that we're afraid of, you know? Yeah, and I'd rather have... I'd be more afraid of stagnation and no change than I would be of change. I think that's what we should remember. Mike, my question, you brought up the cross earlier that goes back way back. Do you think that had anything to do with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ? Do you think that symbol was inspired by that? Absolutely. They use that being on the cross is symbolizing them choosing to sacrifice themselves. It was much of it was actually symbolic. Sacrificing themselves for the bettering of humanity. Dying for providing the way, right? The way just like Gia's the finger pointed out the way towards reaching these higher states of energy and consciousness. If you ignore the fundamentals of the cross, the crossing of mind, body and soul, if you ignore that you will never reach higher states. It's essential. That's why it's such an obsession but religion largely became corrupt and that's why they ended up using the symbol for reasons that most don't really understand this to them it's just a symbol of the church but they don't really understand what it really represents in that it goes back far before the Christian religion was ever established. Interesting. My other one is might be too long-winded. This kind of almost I'm very, I entertain the simulation theory a lot because I can't ever get out of my head. Do you think the Anunnaki or like basically the programmers behind all this if it was a simulation? Well, it seems to me when we look at the design of nature, this perfect Fibonacci number that all of nature, everything in the cosmos has had a perfect design to it, a mathematical design based on perfection. And I mean like absolute perfection. If you think about, if you have a planet and you want to sustain life there, you'd have to design in a way where all of the life that would grow and then die would have to perfectly balance itself. For instance, if you have a forest and you want to create soil, you have to have leaves or organic matter fall and eventually turn into soil to then allow something to grow. Everything is perfect. Everything is designed for the utmost perfection and which is why I think the Anunnaki, why, how they got involved in this whole story. I don't think the Anunnaki have anything to do with designing the universe. However, I think that they have a role or they had a role and a responsibility as creators. That's what I think their role is. They're supposed to be creators. But they ended up breaking many rules. There are, this was so wild when you read some of these writings, you find out that there are rules for creating. They call them, they basically broke the rules of creation. They call them the boundaries of creation. That if you were creating, like kind of like if you think of Star Trek and how when they go to some place somewhere they can't show themselves or interact at all because they pollute that species timeline and they all of a sudden change the entire outcome of that. Just like that, just like that, they're supposed to be creators here but not in a way where they alter and change everything and then become gods here and have us worship them. They broke the rules of creation. Not only did they alter, create, bring duality here, that's what it states through war. I mean, if we didn't know empires in war would we ever have gone to that direction? I think some would quickly say yes but I would, I'd maybe say no. I think we were taught the tools of war, taught these mentalities here. So it's, they seem to have polluted what was a perfect reality here. And I think that's what the Enuma Elish was really talking about when it mentions how T amount was slayed here. I think it's really talking about how they destroyed the perfection that once existed here. Everything was perfect. They brought duality, they disrupted everything. And I think that's why they became essentially some have stated that because of their actions they may even be included in this whole term of fallen angels where they may have actually be the fallen angels, not us, but them because they violated these boundaries of creation that they somehow were stripped of their status and they had to, were forced to exist in our realm. And that's why some of them are so angry and hate us because they see it as our, is because of us that they lost their divinity. Marduk is one that comes up many times discussing that that it's an anger thing because of us. So that's one of the reasons why that we're controlled so much in such a deceptive and negative in dark way because of that. So to answer your question, I don't think that they created everything but I think they can create and they came and disrupted everything. I think that they were supposed to return balance which is maybe why they wanted to wipe out humanity in the first place to try to regain that balance. But it is something that we may fully not understand. It's so complex. Yeah, I might not even be able to understand. That's, that's wild one. Yeah, guys. First, choose a theory. Let everybody know where they can find you. You're on all podcast platforms, right? And now on YouTube. Yep, we're on all podcast platforms and we're on YouTube, our YouTube channel we kicked in at the 49th episode. So it's, it came in later, but it's picking up momentum. We appreciate it. Subscribe, comments, all that stuff is very welcome. Welcome to, we have a Patreon now where we do bonus material. You can go to patreon.com, TOT podcast or truth or theory podcast and you can find us. I'm at real, real E. Willie on Instagram. And I'm at TOTJP on Instagram as well. And you can email us at truth or theory podcast at gmail.com. Thank you very much for having us on guys. This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, it was fun. And Matt, you're the illusion of us.com, right? Actually, well, I have, I have the illusion of us on Facebook as the name but I have the stage of time.com is my website and my YouTube page is Matthew LaCroix. And I just wanted to make a brief announcement for those who made it all the way to the end of the show. A lot of people have been wanting it, but I will be doing, and I will be doing my first live in person convention conference in Palm Springs, California November 20th and 21st with Billy Carson, Brian Forrester, Paul Wallace and many others. It's gonna be a really cool event. And I encourage anyone who would really like to see us speak in person, meet us. All the excitement that's gonna be part of that convention to check that out. And you can find that on the Holy, it's called the Multiverse Holy Grail Convention. You can check out their website. I have links on my, some of my work I've just published on my social media. And also I just wanna mention that progress on the new book with Billy Carson, the Epic of Humanity is coming along really well. And I'm really excited for people to be able to check that out at some point. That's gonna be powerful. Thank you so much. Chris, E. Willie and JP, I really had a great time with this discussion. I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, JP, E. Willie. This was an awesome podcast and I hope we get to do it again soon. Absolutely, yep. Thank you guys. All right, everyone have an excellent evening.