 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buccellato here in studio at the og command center with my colleague and Friend the intrepid mr. Scott Bernstein. Hey now and we've got Benny the producer and engineer extraordinaire in the house as well Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Just want to remind everyone before we get started to please subscribe to our YouTube channel It's growing. We're pretty excited about that. Please Share it leave comments. We're also active on social media Facebook Twitter Instagram I enjoy interacting with people on these through social media and we appreciate your support It's a it's a big help in terms of spreading the word. So so please keep that in mind We have a pretty exciting show today a popular topic We can tell from the analytics that whenever we do an episode about outlaw bikers that it's very popular And this is a very timely very hot topic going on here we're going to talk about the Hell's Angels and We're also going to talk about the Hell's Angels and their feud with the pagans So we're gonna deep dive this you want to get a start at Scott just well There are you know kind of two pieces of this And and it's in it spans the nation, you know goes yes from one side of the country to the other So in the last couple weeks first there was a Search warrant That had been sealed an affidavits that were tied into that search warrant in some court filings out in on the in New England That were unsealed in the last couple weeks that have revealed that the Hell's Angels have a Quote-unquote green light order on the pagans and it's a fallout from the pagans Blue wave expansion campaign that we've talked about on this pod that was launched about five years ago and has has Had quite a few ripple effects And and it's I think it's been successful there They're expanding rapidly across the country and it's the brainchild of the The kind of Sven golly Godfather of of the pagans right now Conan the Barbarian Keith Richter will be coming out of prison in the next couple weeks or probably the next couple months But so there there was some conflict that was Stem from the blue wave Where the pagans were moving into New England and we're going into territory that the Hell's Angels Had previously claimed there are some dust-ups last year no murders, but some Very very violent clashes where people got stabbed and shot and From that unrest there was a Search warrant of a pagans clubhouse in Fall River, Massachusetts, which is kind of the the middle point between Boston and Providence It's a real, you know, it's a factory town very a working-class very multi-ethnic and From that search warrant we found out that there was a Hell's Angels There was a meeting of bosses on the West Coast in At some point in late 2021 so this is not that long ago and there was a confidential informant in In the meeting and as the meeting came to an end the confidential informant stole What's being described as a minutes sheet where they they took notes on what was being discussed at the Meeting and in those notes it said that there was a vote and that Because of what was going on with the pagans moving into Hell's Angels territory not just in New England But around the country that the the bosses in the Hell's Angels put out a green light order Which is a is a shoot-on site order and in order to engage violently any pagan that they see So that's one part of it and then just a couple days ago There were Guilty verdicts and a very big Hell's Angels Racketeering and murder case out in San Francisco that had some ties To New England and the Hell's Angels Boston boss Chris Ranieri who they call the Rain Man People that I've talked to said that the impetus for the pagans pushing into Massachusetts was Rain Man's Inclusion in this big 2017 Murder and racketeering into a matter of California pulling him off the street and getting him put behind bars and that was part of the Reasoning or part of the first Portion of the first part of the blue wave was to go into New England knowing that the Hell's Angels boss there had been taken off the streets So I just want to ask you something you said they raided the pagans clubhouse But that doesn't make sense to get minutes from a Hell's Angels. No, no, no The search warrant to raid the pagans house. Yes, right was based on was based on or not be Mentioned in that search warrant. Yeah, was the fact that a confidential informant had stole a minute sheet From a meeting in in California months earlier and that was Part of the search warrant That gave the feds the right to go into the pagans clubhouse and I believe they also used That information to raid Hell's Angels clubhouse in In a part of Massachusetts as well Yeah, so I know it's confusing. No. Yeah, so let's let's break it down So as you point out, there's this blue wave mandate and My understanding was New England traditionally was Hell's Angels territory and the outlaws came in there in the 80s a pretty heavy but yeah And so according to these documents Salem is like the sort of the nexus of Hell's Angels boss It's I think the chapter is called the Boston Salem, okay Salem's like 45 minutes Yeah, I'm not I'm maybe not really familiar. I mean, I've been to Boston, but not the larger area so It seems like for a while The Hell's Angels were I don't know if you want to say dormant, but they there wasn't a lot of activity there in that particular I Don't know about Hell's Angels presence in Boston proper. So I don't want to speak yeah out of turn the the unrest or the The tensions that have boiled over according to this reporting in the Daily Beast shout out to them for for first reporting this this What this information we've gleaned off of the search warrant that was unsealed a couple weeks ago That You know The I'm sorry. I'm losing my train. We're just I was saying that the it seems like the Hell's Angels had neglected right Okay, I thought this kind of area near Rhode Island. So this area is is considered the southeast coast of Massachusetts It's not Boston, right? You're probably an hour and a half out of Boston. Yeah, so it's it's Cape Cod it's other cities in Southeast Massachusetts and and the two Major players here territorially were Cape Cod and Fall River and the Pagans had no presence at all in Massachusetts Hell's Angels again, I'm not positive about Boston other than the fact that we know that Reneering the Rain Man was leading that Salem Boston chapter But I'm not exactly sure if they have a clubhouse in Salem or they have a clubhouse in Boston but what as you mentioned the the Fall River Hell's Angels had kind of gone dormant, right which In boldened or Inspired, I guess the Pagans to not go to Boston or Salem where Reneering and and that that Hell's Angels camp was they went to a place that had been Abandoned by the hell's by the Hell's Angels and in Fall River planted their flag there and then in response that previously dormant Hell's Angels Southeast Massachusetts group Regrouped right and opened chapters on Cape Cod, right, right? And so they Reestablished their their presence, which you know, I imagine the Pagans found provocative and Then we know from the court documents here that This was not going they were not going to coexist peacefully that the the Hell's Angels also Gave the order the green light order to go attack right falls We're gonna drive them out of here. Well, and they went and they staged a group attack on the Fall River Clubhouse the Pagans Fall River Clubhouse where Over a dozen if not two dozen Hell's Angels showed up in like vans and unloaded a Lot of artillery and came out with with knives and bats and hammers and Attacked the the the fall the Fall River Pagans headquarters and there was a hour-long Brawl in the middle of the street one of the Pagans I guess was left like impaled He survived, but then there was blood all over the yeah This was pretty yeah pretty pretty gruesome and pretty public It's interesting to this reporting because it's actually even even more dramatic than that according to the reporting And which is based on this court documents more than a hundred Hell's Angels. Oh, I'm Even more I said a dozen or two dozen. Yeah, okay five dozen. It's even more dramatic Yeah, that a hundred gathered at a rest stop in Bridgewater, Massachusetts and That along with support clubs like the Sidewinders were there too, so it's just really extraordinary like a hundred dudes I mean, that's no joke. You know what I mean? Yeah, and this was last year. Yeah, this wasn't like right This was in 2022 not like in the 70s or something. Yeah, so it's interesting that also according to the documents That they they took pictures for social media. Yeah in route And I wonder what you think about that because we were just having an off camera discussion about Certain wise guys that have a presence on social media and that doesn't go over well with the OGs And I wonder what with with the biker world. Maybe someone could comment and share with us But you know what my first How they feel my first impulse in terms of where my brain goes here is Is that there is probably a difference in motivation or at some levels of motivation where I'm guessing that when Members of the Hell's Angels are posting on on their socials as they prepare to go take Take the fight if you will to a rival group. I think that's probably a promotional tool Flexing right and recruiting tool. Yeah, as opposed to some of the Italian Wise guys or the you know African-American drug dealers who are just kind of glamming out. Yeah. Yeah, good point Just kind of boasting and and showing off. Yeah, I think with the bikers. It's more of like come join this You can be part of this. Yeah, it's more of a cultural than an individual kind of thing So there's something else that that was in this reporting. I want to ask you about So the reason why they know this obviously they monitored social media after the point But it says cameras. I'm reading from the reporter cameras operated by the Fall River Police Department tracked the 100 strong group of bikers as they rode to Fall River and carried out the attack now If that if that's true, my question is why didn't they intervene? Why didn't they stop it? Why didn't they stop? Yeah, if they if they knew that was About that and I realize if they if they got a hundred dudes, right, you know Throw themselves in the middle of that tornado, but you have they have access to other resources They could have called in SWAT or something like that So if that's true, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that if you if you've talked anybody I don't think that's an outlier of a situation. I mean in on this podcast. We've talked about scenarios where You know law enforcement will In some cases Create yeah, I will manipulate variables to create a crime to watch and then Used to you know that as a predicate for indictment, but I think a lot of times that There there be there's this push and pull between Well, if we stopped it now The bust is a lot less sexy No, I agree with that and and and as we've talked about in the world of law enforcement you it It's political you you rise. Yeah, the more high-profile bust you make the further you rise in in whatever department You're in whether it's federal or state. So I think a lot of times there's like personal personal motivations to Allow the situational play out as much as it can play out without Causing a murder, I guess. Yeah in some cases. I think there's been Situations I shouldn't say I think I know I mean with with the whole scarpa FBI Whitey bolger where you know, they were being allegedly tipped off by FBI agents who to go kill right and and while they were in the process of planning hits We're being told where surveillance units were so they would know to avoid them. Yeah, yeah And also, we know from from that in some cases informants, especially in the biker world Informants all the time try to incite all sorts of things You know one one here. Let me sell you a gun. Let's sell that help again Well, it's it's a self-preservation factor. Yeah, they know the more bust they can they can feed to their handlers in the government the more leniency the more money. Yes, you know the the more Prison time cuts reduction they'll receive. Yeah, so it gets it gets can get pretty can get pretty sketchy But that's one thing. What about that? What about the fact though? that a There was an informant in this meeting of National bosses. Yeah B that informant had the balls to steal The notes from the meeting and give it to I mean, that's pretty yeah I think that's in some ways even being lost in some of this reporting is how did we get the knowledge that there's a green light order? Yeah, it must be someone well placed. Yeah to have access to that kind of information and feel yeah confident enough They could walk away with it. Yeah so the According to this some of the guys broke off from the group so guys some guys were Blocking traffic and as you point out, they swarmed the pagans clubhouse and then a fight ensues the bloody melee as Was already established. No one was no one was killed but It's again says here investigators surveilling the property watched as cars and Motorcycles sped away again. It doesn't seem like the investigators were too interested in Actually arresting people right intervening here, which which I think is I don't know. It could be that could be problematic so the It says here that the informants as investigators that Hell's Angels plan the attack because the pagans emcee members had Disrespected the the Hell's Angels Now I don't know it's not specific enough. I don't know if there was like some specific altercations or do they just felt by opening up a clubhouse there in the first place that was an Side in the flag wearing the colors of the pagans In that area Whether it was you know offensive to the Hell's Angels or offensive the outlaws because there's been a lot of dust ups there and and on an aside and We're monitoring the situation, you know, I'm getting really really good Sourcing on the fact that over the last five six months. There's talks between the Hell's Angels and the outlaws Who are like the the biggest rivals in the history of the biker world are considering Calling some type of truce and and joined forces to combat this blue wave and you got We got Richter coming out of prison in August Under normal circumstances he would have hit a halfway house by now But I'm guessing they're gonna keep him for the last possible second. He's doing two years on a Violation of supervisor lease. He was caught with a weapon leaving a pagans party and I'm confident in saying that there's a Informant in his inner circle house within because he gets pulled over, you know shortly after leaving that it's too Convinced and they and he wasn't even carrying the gun the gun was in a like a secret compartment And they arrested him initially and they didn't find the gun for another like five six seven hours when they they knew where to look So it's a powder cag of a scenario right now It again to give context the pagans until Richter's plan to Expand was was a very big deal in places like Maryland, Virginia West Virginia, Pennsylvania parts of New Jersey, New York But Florida, but that was it People didn't you didn't know about the pagans west of the Mississippi. They didn't know about the pagans in the Midwest They didn't know what Kentucky was another they didn't know about the pagans in New England and Now There are literally pagan chapters that are now being opened or that have opened in Washington state Montana, Oregon They're going down to Texas Oklahoma, right? They're making alliances with with The Mongols So it's a it's it's a very Real-time I don't want to necessarily compare it to what's going on in the mafia in Canada But it's it's not it's not the same thing But it's there's a destabilization factor there and an unpredictability factor there that I think is a parallel Yeah, I mean it was interesting a few years ago or a year ago whenever we did an episode about this and the pagans Expansion and I and I said well, you know, it doesn't seem like anyone's like really standing up to them Well, now that's we see that that's not ever since that episode That's actually not true. It seems like like you mentioned some other prominent clubs are starting to reorganize and I think the recognize that this is You know, maybe not in their best interest to just I heard as the out of the way as the pagans and Mongols have fortified their Alliance or quasi alliance. I've heard that the outlaws are aligning with the bandidos Hmm for the same reason. Oh Yeah, and the outlaws don't have a presence really west of the Mississippi And I don't think they want to have a presence west of the Mississippi other than you know, your your enemies Enemy is your friend. Yeah Wasn't there shooting in Texas not long ago bandidos and Probably but that had nothing to do with Okay, the outlaws are a Midwest down south. Yeah east coast Oh, go almost probably as far west as they go, right? Yes, I would guess But there were some outlaws dudes who were who were wearing their patch around Texas. Remember that story No, you're right though with the outlaws I've heard Have kind of a I don't want to say free pass But where before it would be difficult for them to go into Texas and wear outlaws here because of this Relationship that's forming between them and the bandidos. They have a call all clear. Okay so By the way talking about the pagans on the east coast that I've I've heard from people and I know that sounds vague and some people there's Haters out there gonna say well, that's bullshit, but I don't know what you want me to say I'm not I'm not going to sit here and tell you who we talked to yeah That's never gonna happen. So you can either believe us or not, but we're just never going to happen. So And I hope you know, I think our a lot of our fans respect. I think our reputation Right. It is pretty our batting average is pretty good. Yeah But but but I've heard that you know The Hells Angels in New York have good relationships with cosinostra which makes the pagans nervous apparently from what I've heard But then I've also come across information you and I said we're gonna look into it That the pagans have their own cosinostra right ties in New York So that's kind of interesting. Yeah, and the pagans have always been closely tied in Philadelphia has always been a home base for pagans even though they were founded in Maryland But Philadelphia has always been a real power a power base for the pagans and There's a little bit of a love-hate relationship. There's been some blips Over the years where there's been some Issues between the mob and the pagans, but for the most part in Philadelphia the pagans and the mafia are are aligned Yeah, you know Joey Merlino Has really good relationships with the pagans again. I don't want to everyone loves Joe. Yeah I don't want all the other the five families I don't want to do the digress too far, but I hear there's some new Relationships burgeoning in the Merlino camp with the modern, you know, the the the pagans Current leadership in in Philadelphia, which is another what's old is new again The gorilla a Stevie modern mind of Eugene. I know I'm butchering his name. It's called the gorilla He was the pagans boss in the 90s and was actually the national boss fell out of favor I was on the shelf for a little bit and then Richter who was very close with the gorilla in the 90s when when Conan the Barbarian Richter was was rising in the Long Island pagans He brings Gorilla back into the fold in 2017-18 when he takes power and he makes gorilla a big part of this blue wave and puts gorilla back in power in Philadelphia There was he's an Italian guy, right? Manda, Virginia. I think he's French. Oh, is it but maybe I'm wrong I'd have to yeah, I can't remember. I he's got a weird last name. He's a former cop. Oh Back in like the 70s, but he's a he's like For people that that know the biker lingo, you know gorilla. Manda, Virginia is the Taco Bowman of Philadelphia, you know, the face of biker. Oh the face of the biker world in Philadelphia over the last 30 years even though he was shelved for part of that, you know, is is the gorilla and Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm I just I don't know as much about the pagans. So I didn't know that name didn't sound familiar to me but I'm He there was a internal Mini I don't want to say it was a war but a power struggle In the early 2000s late 90s within the pagans were were gorilla Yeah, how do you pronounce it left? I don't think it's Manda, Virginia. Yeah, it could be so Where where the gorilla got into it with a guy named Tim flood who they called Timmy casual and Lost the power struggle flood took the club over The gorilla was like kicked out and then flood ends up flipping And the power and filly with the pagans went to somebody else and then The gorilla makes his way back into the fold underneath Richter But again, the last the last thing I'll say about this and then you can look forward to some reporting I think in the next couple months. We'll try to touch on it the more I learn about it. There's a picture That surfaced in the last month on social media from Joy Merlino's underboss Handsome Stevie Mazzoni. Oh, and it's in prison. Yeah, Mazzone just reported this winner to go serve five years and The first picture of him in prison that surfaced is him with someone that I'm told is a high-ranking Pagan and that that there's some foreshadowing. Yeah, well it makes sense. Yeah, although It's ironic Merlino with his that family's history with the pagans back in the day Complicated. Well, what's what's funny is that Merlino was really close or is really close to a lot of these pagans What Jimmy's talking about is Chucky Merlino, right Joey's dad Who was erratic at times right big-time drinker? Yeah, I lost his stripes because he was such a drinker Yeah And the incident that you're referring to was I think one of the if not the impetus one of the straws that broke the camel's back is that Chucky gets into a Pretty big-time beef with the pagans in the mid-80s and they start threatening to kill each other and kill each other's families Yeah and Chucky took his got drunk one night and took his BMW and Slams it into the pagans like outside the Pagan's clubhouse where all the bikes are are lined up and and and that that was kind of interesting because It started off where Merlino actually was close with those guys Chucky wait Chucky and Nikki were through the drug connection, right? They were kind of the liaison with Raymond with Long John Marrano They're moving a bunch of drugs together. So he he he started off getting along with the pagans, but then things went sour I think that had to do with a power shift where a new guy had taken over from the pagans who wasn't the same guy that had been I Again, I could be I know there was a guy named the Egyptian And I'm not sure if the Egyptian was the guy that left or the guy that came that some of the issues came with but uh it part of the blue wave is the pagans fortifying their connections and their network with Groups like the Mongols groups like Italian La Cosa Nostra. Yeah, and Hispanic Street Kings Latin Kings the Owl Oz have responded by Fortifying their alliances with LCN and I've heard making some strange bedfellows where they're Aligning with some Black Street Kings to try to combat what the pagans are doing Um, let's segue to that. Yeah. Yeah, what one of the It's interesting because we're talking about Owl bikers on the east coast and one of these prominent guys from the from the New England Hells Angels is also linked to a big bust out west. Yeah, which is something you previewed at the beginning And I just want to add something Um, if for people who watch our program or listen to the podcast and they're not from out west Um, you may not realize like the Hells Angels are reported on all the time. Yeah, if you're out in, California I lived in Arizona for a while Nevada it's it's pretty calm go a week. Yeah, you won't go a couple days I don't think with with Hells Angels activity not being reported on by the various newspaper Yeah, I mean a nightly broadcast and so if you're from the Midwest You you've probably heard of the Hells Angels because they're so iconic and famous but but you you may not Be aware of How active they are those are their super star those are their superstar criminals the way that the Joey Merlinos and the John Goddys and Joey Lombardo's from Chicago are the for the Midwest or the other parts of the East Coast Yeah, so this was this was huge news, especially out west. Yeah, this this and let's that the New England guys connected Yeah, and let's draw a line. I Think that it's noteworthy that When the Rain Man Chris Rainier the Rain Man who is the boss of the Hells Angels? It seems like he's the boss of the entire state of Massachusetts But I think officially he was the boss of the Boston Boston slash Salem Salem chapter He's taken off the streets neither. I think it was 2017. It might have been 18 and That coincides with this move that that Richter I think strategically Looks at the Hells Angels losing Their top. Yeah, their top skipper in that region and pinpointed it as a place to expand to sure Yeah, now let's talk about what brought Rain Man Rainiery off the street So he was indicted in 2017 I believe With a number of Hells Angels on on the West Coast But most prominently a guy that I want to make the the focus of the second half of this episode on is Ray Ray folks and Maybe outside of California Ray Ray folks isn't a big deal but in California Ray Ray folks is The modern-day Sonny Barger from what I hear he is the most powerful most respected most feared Hells Angels shotcaller At least in the United States And he kind of took that Reputation from that from what used to be in that Barger crew Even though Barger has been out of California for a while. He's been in the end of his life He was down in Arizona, right, but uh Northern California is traditionally a Hells Angels like stronghold right so This barge was from the Oakland right area. So Ray Ray folks I'm just kind of learning about him and talking to some people and doing my due diligence But just what's on paper is pretty scary. I mean the guy is is a is a real Hurricane of Criminal activity and a seems to be a real you know cowboy and and a lot of his behavior and and What he was convicted of last week a Rain man was convicted of a murder and we're gonna get into that in a second and that murder actually ties back to a Hells Angels Rally motorcycle rally in in New England But the Ray Ray folks part of this case was tied to in Ray Ray's done a lot of Prison time in the last 15 years and I think he's got a probably another four or five years left but he'll be in his I think mid-60s when he gets out and Early early 60s, maybe mid-60s and he'll have some time You know at the top of the heap so He was in jail for something He was a leader and let's also be clear that the Ray Ray folks comes from or was a little that is the head or was the head of the Sonoma Valley Hells Angels chapter up in wine country and He was serving time in the early 2010s and Got out Found out that when he was in prison one of his lieutenants was sleeping with his wife They take that lieutenant They beat him near death Ray Ray folks leaves the beating Summons this guy's wife to the clubhouse in Sonoma Valley Sexually assaults his wife After sexually assaulting his wife returns to where this lieutenant is beaten and bloodied and They jump on top of them hold him down and tattoo his face It was just a vicious Retaliation and vengeance plot with minus killing this guy It to assert his authority Ray Ray folks and I believe very shortly after that he was Picked up on that assault which was then rolled into the racketeering case that went on trial This past couple months. Yeah, I don't I don't think just to be clear I don't think folks was convicted of sexual assault. It's I think it's alleged that's part of the okay But I don't I don't think he was Convicted of that the allegation right is that he sexually assaulted his victims? Right, right, but I I don't I don't I can't say that he was convicted of that just to be just to be fair here But he was convicted of some of these other things Racketeering assault So, yeah, let's let's unpack this a little bit have an age for him there No, it doesn't So Look it up because part of part of the well as you point out This is an invest this this is stems from an investigation An event investigation that went on for three years. That was one of these joint task force investigations feds state local Of the Sonoma County 57 Ray Ray folks is 57 right now So this will be a young dude I mean at least he'll probably have about it will be a 10-year sentence for this But he's already done five waiting for trial He'll be out by the time he's 61 62 So this was a joint investigation of the Sonoma County chapter and There were charges for murder assault home invasion extortion witness tampering 11 indictments But it also includes a murder conspiracy, right which dates back to 2014 I believe which involves Ray man out. That's the connection between Out in out in New England. So there was a rally in New Hampshire where all of the Hell's Angels from the West Coast traveled east and Ray Ray folks living up to the reputation as as this, you know cowboy gangster biker Has a Sergeant at arms of his Sonoma Valley chapter named Joel Silva who went by the nickname Doughboy and They called themselves the fuck around and find out crew and or F a FO And they were like a elite enforcement unit that the national bosses would send Throughout California to to regulate internally internally house clean. Yeah. Yeah, not other right clubs but like I mean any other clubs too, but yeah, but yeah, just to keep everybody in line and I Think there was another group within that chapter that called themselves the young guns that were a group of younger Initiates and so forth. So this was a real heavy group Out of the Sonoma Valley guys that were quick tempered quick triggered and You know, at least amongst their club or in the biker world, this was their calling card They were tough guys and and they were, you know, relentlessly brutal. So Doughboy Begins to get a reputation in the in the 2010s in addition to being the head of this crazy unit under Ray Ray Becomes a drug addict or maybe he was a drug addict before but the drug Habit that he was dealing with begin to get increasingly worse and it was causing rogue behavior and When they were in new New England when they were in New Hampshire in the summer of 2014 for this rally You had all the West Coast guys and all the East Coast guys there and I guess Doughboy Threatened Rainman Rainier he's right-hand man his his I don't know who that is but what was his best friend and You know top lieutenant. Yeah, and And According to testimony and and court records that very Afternoon or evening that that happened a Contract was placed on Doughboy Silva's head The California bosses and Rainier II. I guess let wherever the wherever the altercation occurred They removed themselves from that went and held a impromptu meeting between Rainier II and I believe the boss of the Fresno Hells Angels chapter and they decided that they were going to go back to California Get Ray Ray folks to sign off and which we don't know if he did or not. He's not Implicated in the murder but They allegedly put the contract on his head out there and they planned it for a week or two and then Silva was was lured to the Fresno Hells Angels chapter Under the pretense of marijuana deal a deal that that had that I think the guy said he needed Doughboy his muscle that he was afraid that the other Hells Angel was going to be Confrontational, but it was it was just a ploy to get him there. They shot him in the head and then cremated him at a A crematorium in a funeral home Yeah, so allegedly right. So, yeah, I mean, that's one of one thing I want to ask you about and I Texted you earlier about this and privately about your legal analysis Among your many hats you wear you also have a law degree So I'm interested in your legal analysis here. So as you point out right, he's lured to the clubhouse according to this one of the guys who's convicted shoots Silva in the back of the head and they take his body to a nearby funeral home and the Cremation oven with another body that was that was there legitimately Then they set the car on fire So so these guys two of these guys were Convicted last last year of this right of this murder conspiracy and and the one thing that stands out to me as I'm reading this is How do you get convicted of a murder conspiracy when there's no body if the body is cremated allegedly? How do you like no body? I don't understand how it's rare. It's rare indicted on a murder case when there's no But no when there's no body. It's rare, but it happens I There have been a number of high-profile cases The one that I can think of immediately and I texted this to you today was the billionaire boys club case Which was made into a television movie in the 80s with Judd Nelson. Oh, yeah, actually that was a great TV movie The murder that put him away for life They never found the body and To this day Joe Hunt who Judd Nelson played in that movie who I think is in the 60s now Insist that the guy's name was Ron Levin Insist that Ron Levin is living, you know on a tropical island somewhere drinking a pina colada laughing that I'm in This is Joe Hunt saying it laughing that I'm in prison and that it was all ploy to get him locked up I think in both that case and in this case You can Get around it if you're a prosecutor and still get a guilty verdict if you put people on the stand That claim that they participated in this. Yeah, and our same firsthand I did this either with the person at the defense table or at the behest of the person at the defense table Yeah, and you're believing The first-hand account on the witness stand more so than than a physical evidence of anybody But it seems like it'd be very difficult to make that yeah I mean that's what happened here because they have some they had some high profile snitches here who testified that they were That they participated in this murder But if I'm a I mean I I wasn't on this, you know, I didn't sit on the jury obviously, but if I'm on the jury and and you've got The relying on the testimony of presumably someone who's probably a sketchy dude in their own, right? And and there's no forensic evidence. I know you obviously you can be convicted without forensic evidence that's been sort of this myth of like the The CSI effect right like now everyone thinks like oh if there's no forensic evidence Yeah, you don't get convicted. That's a myth people get convicted all the time without forensic. I get it But a murder like I mean that that's I mean Wasn't Well, I whatever I don't it seems like that would give you a leg up as a defense attorney That's what I'm trying to say they're trying to take my client and pin a murder on and we don't even know if there was a murder That's precisely that's what if I'm the defense attorney. That's what I'm saying right precisely this guy For all we know this guy took off and is living with his girlfriend in Switzerland, right? Yeah So I'm I find it really interesting go find go find him or go find his body or Let my client go home because yeah, there is no there's no body. There's no murder. That's what I that's what I would say And I presume that these defendants will appeal this. I mean, I certainly would Two things that pop up my head. Well, we're talking about if we're gonna tie this to the Cosa Nostra First is Jimmy Hoffa. There's no there's no body. Yes So I don't think they're ever gonna bring charges, but if they ever were going to bring charges They would have had to bring charges with nobody right and then, you know more recently out of New England Cadillac Frank Salemi Had I don't want to say had skated on a murder. There was never any murder charges brought on The death of Stevie Dessaro because there was no body right the body had vanished for for 25 years and was unearthed via a tip from a guy that got jammed up in a Drug case didn't want to go to prison and said oh by the way 30 years ago I helped the 25 years ago. I helped dispose of a body in my backyard of my Business and they dug it up and then all of a sudden Salemi who didn't have to worry about that case because there wasn't a body all of a sudden has to worry about it because there's a body Yeah But to your point the prosecutors in Massachusetts Or I don't know. I don't remember if the case came out of Massachusetts or it came out of Providence they found the body in Providence, but the murder took place in Massachusetts I'm pretty sure that the case was out of Boston But the prosecutors in Boston were not going to charge anybody with Stevie Dessaro's murder without a body Even though they had been told from pretty early on by wetty Bulger's partner Stevie Flemmie who flipped that Flemmie was present When the murder took place. Yeah, so they knew back in the 90s that Salemi was involved in it Yeah, so even if you're pretty confident based on your Sources even if you're pretty confident that that's what happened without a body That's tough to make isn't that but that's all isn't that always the if you're a mob boss And you want to or if you're a mob if you're any criminal that murders somebody and you want to Get rid of the body, right? It's because the idea is nobody no crime, right reasonable doubt Yeah, I mean so I'm that was really striking to me and and and nobody no physical evidence Yeah, and I know like, you know a lot of people might think well, let's just talk about the The crimes and it's you know, it's kind of fascinating, but this legal part of it I think is interesting and I think our audience appreciates that we do like to talk about criminal justice policy And sometimes we like to get in the weeds about the legal things here, but I think it's relevant I mean I was really striking to me that they could get a conviction on this and when we're talking about, you know legal Order of operations or proper protocol, you know folks's attorney was saying My client it's very rare to be locked up for five years before you see the jury Yes, it's normal to be locked up for a year and a half to two years three years is kind of once he hit five years Yeah, that's a little extensive the the good thing For him is that he's done five years of a ten-year bid right which will count right, right? So he probably only has four years left to do and if and if you're in it from a you know a Tactical war point of view If you're Conan the Barbarian Richter and you're thinking I mean that's where his mindset is You haven't eliminated Ray Ray folk. It's not like Ray Ray folks is gonna have to be a A Incarcerated shot-caller, right? Maybe for a couple years be on the street, but he'll be on the street by the end of this decade. Yeah formidable Yeah, Conan's relatively yeah, Conan's relatively young too. I think Conan's 62 or 63 Yeah, so with Conan Ray Ray folks and then Tommy Oh who's the the national or international boss of the Outlaws out in Buffalo. We got three Shot-callers of the three or three of the premier motorcycle club brands in this country with you know very robust And and energize leaders. Yeah leadership. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere No, I mean it is interesting one thing. I'll so I'll point out as we wrap up it It is, you know pretty dramatic examples here assault Allegedly there's just a way to see but notice and You know, they beat up the guys at the Pagan's clubhouse, but I Don't understand that all that's illegal, but they didn't get anybody on any organized crime stuff here, right? Even what they got Ranieri on It's a murder conspiracy. It's not the murder itself and he's only get ten years for it. Yeah Yeah, I mean, I look at it if I was involved in a murder and I only got ten years for that murder That's a win for me. Yeah. Yeah, because I think the sentencing hasn't been set yet No, but the I read the sentencing recommendations. Oh, okay recommendations, or it would be ten years. Yeah, okay for both of them Yeah for Ray Ray and But there's there's nothing in it dramatic it's worth reporting it's worth talking about and and I think it's fascinating Well, but they didn't get anyone on any narcotics gambling And I should say that Tommy. Oh the Outlaws boss isn't facing any cases right now. Yeah, he's in his I think early 50s Who knows how All of the Buffalo La Cosa Nostra Investigations could eventually yeah blow back on him because if he has he has very close ties to the Magadena crime family He's the head of security at the strip club that the the godfathers Nephew owns and that nephew is going on trial this summer for drugs and racketeering and prostitution Yeah, we need to do it just based on in that club a buffalo or sorry We get a lot of requests to do a Buffalo episode. Yeah, we should base in that strip club It's called Faro's right so like I said, you got three bosses that are you know in terms of Shot calling age are kind of in the prime of their careers in that world. Yeah, that's pretty young in that world I mean a lot of other professions maybe not but in that world Leadership usually are senior, you know guys guys around that age so two more quick tidbits Of some nuggets that I would I'll pass along that I've gotten fed to me Take it with the Any amount of salt that you want I haven't fully vetted these two things first I've been told that I Don't know if Ray Ray folks. I don't know what his take on this potential merger or Ceasefire or truce with the outlaws is I wouldn't be a merger. I know right wouldn't be a mergers the wrong way, right? I don't know What his opinion is I'm gonna I'm gonna try to find that out mm-hmm What I've been told though is that these Conversations have been taking place In the Midwest that that there are Michigan right something took place. I've heard they've I've heard they're taking place like in Indianapolis But there was an issue in Michigan that got kind of nipped in the bud by these conversations where okay, there were there were some kind of reports last year in an indictment that Informants were talking about a war between the Hell's Angels chapters that had just came into Michigan the last couple years and Outlaws, but I was told that whatever Conversations are being held has put that dispute on hold. Yeah, and that they're that Indianapolis This is what I was told that Indianapolis is the only major city Where Outlaws and Hell's Angels operate like within a couple mile radius of each other and They might not be friends. They code they're not trying to kill each other. Yeah, and that they're using that Relationship I guess and Hell's Angels just came into Indianapolis. I think in the last 10 years as a kind of a jumping-off point or if they're going to be able to Join forces to combat the blue wave So that's that's one little piece of evidence or one piece of information that I've gotten which I found interesting sure Peace some biker peace summits in in Hoosierland. Yeah, they go play basketball after after after a hard Hard afternoon's work of trying to carve out a peace deal. They go shoot hoops Or they jump on the probably go ride right or they jump on the Indianapolis Speedway with their Harleys and Start start driving around. Yeah, I mean It'd be interesting to see hopefully they can you know for for the sake of everyone co-exist and Keep violence for everyone I mean not to sound too Trumpy, but some sometimes you got to show strength and As a means to create peace at least in these worlds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah in that world But we it's interesting We do get feedback from some people in this world who Who do their sentiment is? That the different clubs should try to get along with each other Because they have more in common than they don't and that the real enemy is The FBI But you know, but if we're talking about outlaws and Hell's Angels, I mean you're talking about Bad blood sure goes back a half century. Yeah, I mean the war erupted. I think in 73 or 74 Related to some murders down in Cal up down in Florida from a dispute at a New Year's Eve party in New York and They were Massachusetts Hell's Angels that were at this New New New York Hell's New York New Year's Eve party got into it without laws these For these three Massachusetts Hell's Angels beat the outlaws down and then the outlaws invited these guys down to Florida Fainting wanting a peace agreement and yeah killed them like and I'm in like a triple slain and that erupted this war that's been going on It is interesting that the politics of it because we know there are clear examples where There are times where these guys do coexist with each other and and I've heard from guys who say I don't have a problem with with a dude from another club and But obviously things get complicated sometimes and we know from our interview with George Christie Yeah, as well as the former Hell's Angels boss as well as this was documented in court filings that in the 90s There were peace talks sure. Oh, yeah with George Christie and Taco Bowman. Yeah, and I'll talk to Quash squash the beef Between the two clubs and according to George It was all derailed by this guy spike O'Donnell who was the boss of Milwaukee or one of the bosses of Milwaukee who? There was always a lot of bad blood in Milwaukee between Hell's Angels and and outlaws and well Harley-Davidson is yeah from Milwaukee sure and That he he put a wrench into it that O'Donnell made it so Christie couldn't make the peace, right? So it's not unprecedented that they're there there are talks and then the end with Colin Richter Conan the Barbarian Richter is supposed to come out in August Officially, he's not the boss anymore. He gave up the boss title to a guy from Virginia big Bob Francis and Big Bob is a an OG a guy. I've heard a guy that everybody loves is known as a you know salt of the earth Gets along with a lot of different factions and doesn't have ambitions of Anything more than being a seat warmer And that I had heard that it was possible Francis was gonna get removed before Richter comes home, but Francis has been in according to Some some affidavits that were signed by D agents a couple years ago Francis has Had taken over for Richter when Richter went to jail in 21 and The common belief is that either Francis has already stepped aside or when Conan the Barbarian comes out of lock up in August Will step aside and Conan will then become the boss again So officially Conan even though I've been calling him the boss. I've been calling the president Officially, he has not been for the last two years when he's been in federal law Detainment, but it sounds gonna be a peaceful transition. Yeah, I don't think Bob Fran I think that that was the reason they put Bob Francis in there They're like you've done great things for us in the last 30 40 years You got a ton of respect you want to give you the title for a couple years so you can say you were the boss the national boss But really it's not a it's not a long-term thing You're just here to kind of make sure everything's steady when Conan goes that happened with and now we're geeking out But that happened with pre Tola in Detroit with the in between Is there really in? Yeah, Jack Tocco. It was a similar they gave it right Well, you you'll have the title for a couple years. Yeah, because pre Tola was an OG while we're internationally Really geek out it can it can go wrong. I mean Jimmy Hoffa. He thinks yeah He's putting Frank Fitzsimmons Yeah, his right hand in as a seat warmer right and Fitzsimmons was like I kind of like this seat Yeah, yeah, and I have ambitions and I I want to be the boss. Yeah, you had your time in the Sun. Yeah So I don't think that's what we have here And I think Richter will come back and they'll be a seamless transition the question becomes Does Richter Take it into even a higher gear Oh for the wave the way now that he's out because there's been a lot of activity when he was when he was in lock up I mean the fact that there's a chapter in Montana right now. It really blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah, that's really far west. Yeah, so We'll see and we'll keep we'll monitor it and We'll keep giving you the information on the biker politics Because there's quite a bit of outlaw biker politics that that's permeating or yeah collating in the United States It's really interesting a fascinating subculture. And so we we thank everyone for listening and for watching Again, please subscribe follow us on social media. I'm Jimmy Buccellato Scott Bernstein. We're out