 Well, hello. Welcome back to legislative update. I am delighted to be hosting this show, the longest running show on WSCS. I'm just thrilled. Today, I am honored to have two old friends, two longtime friends, two people well known in Wisconsin politics, at least one well-known in Sheboygan politics. We have today State Senator Cal Potter, who was first a assembly person and then State Senator, and now he is representing Common Cause of Wisconsin. And I'm delighted to have Jay Hatt, who is the executive director of Common Cause. You two go back a long way. You hosted your own television show a long time ago when you were in the State Senate based in Madison. Tell me, first of all, about Common Cause. Why? What do you do there? Well, we are a nonpartisan organization. We don't endorse candidates for public office. And really what Common Cause is, it's part of national Common Cause. So it's a national organization. We're interested in what we call good government, clean, honest, transparent, ethical, things that people used to think were important in government. And a lot of people still do. And as I say, we don't endorse candidates, but we endorse ideas. Less money in politics is probably a good idea because ideas should matter more than campaign cash. No gerrymandering of legislative and congressional districts because people deserve to to elect their legislature rather than the legislature choosing who their voters should be. But things like ethics, things like behaving well when you're in the legislature and when you're running for Congress or for the legislature also being held to a high standard just so that people will have confidence in the kind of work you're doing. And those things don't have party labels. They apply to everybody. And so for there to be almost 50 years in 2020, that's what Common Cause has been doing. I've had the privilege of representing Common Cause in Wisconsin as the director for 23 years. It's almost half that time. And before that, I was in the Wisconsin, I worked in the Wisconsin legislature, and I was very fortunate to host a program called the Cal Potter Show here in Sheboygan, although we did most of the filming in Madison. And so I've known Cal a long time. He is the epitome to me of someone who was interested in all of those things, good government, transparency, ethics, integrity, things that we need from both Republicans and Democrats. I heard you speak at the Democratic Party a couple years ago. You spoke about money and politics. You are nonpartisan, so you are not afraid to take on Democrats and Republicans. Can you give me an example of a time you took on Democrats? Oh my goodness, yes. 2002 was something called the legislative caucus scandal. It brought down the Senate majority leader of the Wisconsin Senate, the guy by the name of Chuck Kuala, and the chairman of the Joint Finance Committee, a Democrat by the name of Brian Burke. And both of those individuals were involved in felony misconduct in public office related to campaign fundraising. They were using their offices to raise money and using employees in the Capitol to run campaigns, both of which were illegal. Now and back then. And so we went after those people. We went after Governor Jim Doyle for not pursuing a campaign pledge he made in 2002 to clean up the scandal in the Capitol. He decided once he was governor that he could raise a lot of money as governor rather than try to curb the influence of special interest money. So I was not welcome in Governor Doyle's office for most of the eight years that he was governor. So we'll go after anybody who doesn't behave above board, or at least I'd like to think we would. So we just got done talking about the special session. We're taping this three days after Governor Walker signed the bill that was very controversial, several bills actually, which reduced the power of Tony Evers. I forgot where I was going with that. Let me go back to money in politics. That was one of your number one issues. And I remember when I, people who follow, who know me know that I ran for state assembly twice and both times the very first question. Political people who were advising me said, and then that, okay, it's great that you want to run. How much money can you raise? That's not who are you? Not what do you stand for? Not what are your skills? Not can you give a speech? How much money can you raise? Are we ever going to get away from that? Well, you know, one of the things that we talk about being operable on both sides and calling both sides wrong when they're wrong. Democrats, when they were in power, oftentimes had an arrogance about them. For example, the reapportionment was something that was done by the courts previously. And they had really a golden opportunity to put in place something that would have drawn districts in Wisconsin, Congressional and State Legislature, without going to the courts, by going to something like the Iowa Plan, where you get a non-partisan entity to do it. Well, during the Doyle administration and the legislature being Democrat, they never took that up. We had opportunities to, in Congress particularly, on the national level, to go to some type of public financing and really strong restrictions on special interest money. They didn't do anything, either, because they thought they could raise all kinds of money. The gravy train was going to last forever for both sides. And so when Common Cause comes out and talks about being open and honest and ethical and so on, one of the reasons I got on the board is because I feel that this is an organization that needs a voice all over and a strong voice because there are problems on both sides of the aisle occasionally. And not pursuing what ought to be done when the opportunity avails itself. And when we look at the lawsuit, for example, that's winding its way through the various courts on redistricting, it involves states that have gerrymandered on the Democratic side as well as the Republican side. And so we're saying, this is wrong, no matter who does it, and we need changes. And so we're a group that I feel very strongly about is a unique group in that it is not taking, it doesn't take sides, it takes sides on issues and it puts forth criticism where criticism is due. And one thing I just want to add to that with regard to the money situation, you know, there was a very critical Supreme Court, United States Supreme Court decision in 2010, Citizens United, which makes it more difficult in some respects to be able to put limits on money. That's a decision that was narrowly decided by a five to four margin. It could be easily overturned, provided we get the correct balance on the United States Supreme Court. But more than that, there's much that we can still do. Public financing is something that's desperately needed again in Wisconsin. We had that because public financing, in order to accept it, you have to agree to limit the campaign spending that you do. And that's important because too much money in politics, I don't care if you are conservative or progressive. Most people think that has a corrupting influence on public policymaking. It's pretty obvious. It's been so hard to convince people. I hear all the time from people, I don't want my tax money to go to pay for any of those politicians. And you try to explain, well, no, if everyone got the same equal amount, government would be much more responsible to all of us, correct? Instead of just the rich donors or people from some lobbying group that are tunneling times of money. Not only that, but as Republican Senator Michael Ellis of Nina used to say, the reason you want public financing is because if you don't have it, that money is supplied by special interest groups who then put their hooks into the state budget and receive special treatment, special favors. And that costs taxpayers a tremendous amount of money. The small amount of money that's required to have a robust public financing system is just, it's such a good way to ensure that the people's interest will be watched for in the state budget rather than special interests who basically make a lot of the decisions about where the money goes. So it's in every way a good thing. When candidates take public financing, they're beholden to the public. When they take money from special interest groups, they're beholden to the special interest groups. And this is how other countries do it, correct? Absolutely. They have a shorter campaign period instead of these years-long thing. News coverage all about the horse race instead of issues. It's just, it's so frustrating if you want to join politics. And I'm sure you can tell stories of how when you first got on the state assembly in 1975, you joined the state senate in 1985, is that correct? In 1991. 1991, for how long? Eight years. OK, for eight years. And then you got off and you were in charge of libraries and school. I forgot the acronym for your department. Department of Public and State. But a big change. Wisconsin used to have a reputation for clean governments. Nobody says that anymore today. That's why I moved here. You know, one of the things in response to people saying, I don't want government money going into politics, is it shows a great, I think, misnomer about how people, how the economy works. Where do you think corporate monies that go into politics come from? They come from when you buy a car or a refrigerator or whatever it is that that corporation is making, part of their budget that their profit or whatever count they take it out of, goes to pay for their lobbyists, goes to pay for contributions to candidates. So, yeah, people are paying for it already. Every time you buy a soft drink or a car or whatever it is. You know, why people think this money comes from, falls out of the sky from, you know, I don't know where they think it comes from. So, they're paying for it. So, you might as well have some control as to who gets it and how much, rather than this idea that... You know, the other thing we could have tomorrow, if the legislature had the will to do it, was we could have much greater transparency and disclosure. Right now, as a result of what the Republican legislature and the governor did three years ago in 2015, Wisconsin has more dark money flowing into its politics. And by dark money, you mean nobody knows where it came from? Unregulated money that can come from anywhere. It can come from anywhere in the country. In some cases, it can come from overseas. But we don't know that because it's all, we don't have required disclosure of where that money comes from. People, at least when there are television or media advertisements, people at least have the right to know who's behind that money so they can see who's trying to influence their own. One would think. So, what's on your radar screen? Anyone can join your organization. You probably have very modest dues, if any. We do. It's about 3,000 members, but we also have about 7,000 activists. We were in coalition with other folks. But yes, our agenda is, as I've mentioned at other times, we're looking at the next election, the Supreme Court election. The best thing that people can do is to participate in democracy. And that is by making sure that they have what's required to vote. Wisconsin has among the most restrictive voter ID requirements in the country, more so than most southern states who went out of their way to make it difficult for people to vote. But the key is for people to make sure they have what they need in order to vote. And then the key also is to be engaged with the legislature and the governor to make sure your voice is heard. I think Cal could tell you, people have a lot more power than they think they do often. I mean, all it takes is about 10 or 12 activists in your district to put an issue on the radar screen of a legislator. And then over time, sometimes, that can work to change minds and hearts. And that's how you get changes by that citizen activism. So that's critical. So we promote that. Don't lose hope in the system. Don't lose hope? No, don't. Despite the special session that we talked about on a different show. And I know you took a very public position on that. You were opposed. But even despite that, despite these very controversial bills passed, you're still optimistic. Well, yeah, because the alternative is the end of democracy. So you have to continue to push the levers of democracy. Change doesn't happen overnight. It sometimes takes years. OK, that's good to know. So I very much appreciate your time. I think we're going to end the show for now. So thank you very much. This has been a legislative update. Thank you so much for joining us.