 Good afternoon and welcome. I'm Michael Fully Love, the Executive Director of the Lowy Institute. And it's my pleasure to welcome everyone here at 31 Blyth Street in the room, as well as those joining us online, to hear from the Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Anthony Albanese MP. I'd also like to welcome the Shadow Defence Minister, Brendan O'Connor, the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, Senator Christina Keneally. I think we have the Shadow Assistant Minister for Cyber Security, Tim Watts, in the room, and also Senator Tim Ayers, whom I know has a strong interest in these issues. So welcome, very warm welcome to everybody. Before I go on, let me acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which the Institute stands, the Gadigal of the Eora Nation. I pay my respects to their elders past and present. When sorrows come, warned Claudius in Hamlet, they come not as single spies but in battalions. And that's certainly how it feels at present. Two weeks ago, Russia's forces invaded its neighbour, Ukraine. The Ukrainian people have put up a tremendous resistance. The Russian military has taken heavy casualties, but its wicked assault on Ukraine continues. Just in the past few days, Russia has attacked a nuclear power plant and bombed a maternity hospital. More than two million Ukrainians have fled their country. Of course, Australians have known what kind of a man sits in the Kremlin for a long time. We remember that in 2014, Flight MH17 was shot from the sky by Vladimir Putin's proxies in the Donbas at a cost of nearly 300 souls, including 38 of our fellow countrymen and women. Further eastwards in our region, we're nearly 10 years into the reign of President Xi Jinping. And over the course of that decade, China has changed. Its foreign policies have hardened, its constraints on people within its borders have tightened, and its willingness to accept criticism has disappeared. Later this year, the National Party Congress of the Chinese Communist Party is expected to extend Xi Jinping's presidency into an historic third term. Around the world, governments still struggle with a deadly pandemic. There are more refugees, asylum seekers and internally displaced people now than at any time since the Second World War. And all the while, the planet continues to heat up. There's an old testament quality to this moment with its flood, fire, war, plague and exodus. But there's a new testament quality too. And what I mean by that is the unprecedented goodwill, solidarity and resolve that has been displayed not just by like-minded countries, but by the whole world in response to Moscow's actions. The beneficiaries of the liberal international order have realised that sometimes they must serve in its bodyguard. And perhaps this contains the seeds of something new, something that can make us more optimistic about the future. This then is the world that the next Prime Minister of Australia will confront on his first day in office. And I'm very pleased today to be hosting the alternative Prime Minister, the opposition leader, the Honourable Anthony Albanese MP. Mr Albanese is a lifelong political warrior entering the Federal Parliament in 1996. During his career, he served in a number of portfolios including regional development, infrastructure, transport and as leader of the House and as Deputy Prime Minister. And in May 2019, he was elected the leader of the Federal Parliamentary Labor Party. Of course, the real key to Anthony's character is that he's a rusted-on supporter of the South Sydney Football Club. So the themes that I've been discussing of suffering and redemption are not unfamiliar to him. Today, Mr Albanese will speak to us about how a Labor government would deliver national security in a complex world. It's my pleasure to invite the leader of the opposition to address us. Mr Albanese, the lectern is yours. On which we commit on behalf of the statement from the heart in full. The security of our nation is the most solemn responsibility of any government and the first priority of every Prime Minister. Today, I want to take the opportunity to share my vision for an Australia that is stronger, safer and more resilient, more prepared to meet the challenges and threats of a less certain world. Almost 80 years ago, on the 14th of March, 1942, Prime Minister John Curtin gave a speech for broadcast on American radio. He began with this. On the great waters of the Pacific Ocean War, now breeze its bloody steam. From the skies of the Pacific, pours down a deathly hail. In the countless islands of the Pacific, the tide of war flows madly. For you in America, for us in Australia, it is flowing badly. Now, Curtin was not one, but doomsaying, or hyperbole. Truly, they were the most fearful days that our nation has known. Eight decades later, Labor still looks to Curtin. Not just to salute, he strength of character or his sacrifice. But because Curtin's famous 1941 declaration that Australia looked to America was deeper than a statement of wartime necessity, it was an assertion of Australia's right and indeed Australia's responsibility to act in our own interests, to make our own alliances, to decide our place in our region for ourselves. And through 80 years of change, that principle of sovereignty has remained at the core of Labor's approach to our foreign policy and our defence policy. Whether in government or in opposition, we treat national security as the first priority with our national interest at its core. Under my leadership, Labor offered bipartisan support for the Defence Strategic Update 2020, as well as for AUKUS and the acquisition of nuclear-powered submarines. We have engaged constructively and supported a range of national security legislation covering issues such as cyber, critical infrastructure, intelligence and law enforcement. We have continued our long-standing bipartisan approach to the work of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. For Labor, national security is above partisan politics and fundamental to our national security is our national resilience. As all of you at Lowy understand, Australia's national security is bound up in so much more than our defence capability, critical as it is. In the complex, interconnected, rapidly changing, strategic environment of the 2020s, national security also means cyber security, energy security, economic security and of course, environmental security. Keeping Australians safe means planning for global shocks, be it conflict, pandemic, financial collapse or environmental disaster and investing in the country's capacity to adapt to crisis, building the resilience and resolve to ensure we can come through challenging times together. That's the other vital element of the resilience that underpins our national security, our unity as a country. Our allies and partners around the world are rightly describing Russia's unprovoked attack on Ukraine as an assault on the rules-based order that has stood since the creation of the United Nations. Russia's actions are also an attack on the values free nations hold dear. Representative democracy, the rule of law, the right to live in peace. Just as we have long viewed it as Australia's responsibility to join in the defence of those principles and values when threatened abroad, it is also our duty to protect and nurture them right here at home. The health of our democracy, the integrity of our institutions, the transparency and fairness of our laws, the harmony and cohesion of our population, these aren't just noble ideals. They are a powerful defence against the threat of modern authoritarianism. Because behind authoritarianism's reliance on disinformation, crude nationalism and false nostalgia and its insidious appeal to the disillusioned and the disenfranchised is implicit and explicit sometimes argument that democracy, diversity and progress have failed us. It's why measures to strengthen faith in our institutions and our democracy, including our commitment to a National Anti-Corruption Commission are so important in building national cohesion. In a very real sense, I see our determination to be a government that delivers on its commitments and brings the country together as a key element of ensuring a stronger and safer Australia. Three key principles at the heart of Labor's National Security Policy. One, defending Australia's territorial integrity. Two, protecting our nation's political sovereignty from external pressure. And three, promoting Australia's economic prosperity and social stability with sustainable growth, secure employment and a unified community. This means preventing threats to our borders, our people, our infrastructure and of course, our institutions. Protecting the democratic institutions so central to the expression of our sovereignty. Building and maintaining a strong economy, resilient supply chains and the skills, technology, infrastructure and industries to make more things here in Australia securing our self-reliance. These are all part of our plan for a better future. A Labor government will achieve these objectives and build a more secure, resilient Australia by one, supporting a stronger Australian Defence Force. Two, prioritising better and smarter cyber security. Three, shoring up our economic self-reliance. Four, strengthening our communities and our institutions. Five, deepening our partnerships in the region and globally right around the world. And six, taking action on climate change. Real action. This is the plan that Labor will take to the election. But more importantly, it's the plan that will be committed to delivering in government. But of course these aren't theoretical constructs. They operate in a real world of geopolitical tension. And in some cases, as we're seeing right now, real conflict. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has trampled fundamental principles which have made the world much safer since World War Two. Russia has called sanctions an act of war, attacked nuclear power plants and inflicted terrible injury and death on civilians. They have gone as far as to issue threats of a nuclear response to international support for Ukraine. The courageous resistance of the Ukrainian people embodied by their President Volodymyr Zelensky has rallied the world to the cause of their freedom. And Russia's ruthlessness has only served to strengthen the resolve of our allies in Europe, the United States and around the world. But we know Russia is not without friends and one of those friends is China. China has failed in its special responsibility as a permanent member of the UN Security Council while offering Russia relief from sanctions. Just weeks before the invasion of Ukraine, China signed a no limits friendship with Moscow. There are many reasons to be concerned about such a friendship, particularly in light of China's growing assertiveness in our own region. Both at home and in its international posture, the China of Xi Jinping has demonstrated a harsher authoritarianism and a more strident nationalism. This has manifested itself most recently in a takeover of Hong Kong, repression of human rights in China and the militarisation of the South China Sea. More broadly speaking, Australia still faces threats such as foreign interference, espionage, terrorism, organised crime and cyber attacks. All while the world continues to grapple with the global pandemic. These vulnerabilities are often exploited by autocratic countries seeking to increase their power. We know as well that not all threats are external. As ASEO Director General Mark Burgess points out, ideologically motivated extremism is on the rise in Australia and now accounts for 50 per cent, half of ASEO priority domestic counterterrorism caseload. And amid it all, the clock keeps ticking relentlessly on climate change. Something that we're seeing right now in northern New South Wales, here in Sydney and in Queensland. A threat with serious direct implications for the security and wellbeing of Australians and our region. It is more important than ever that we chart a clear long-term course for Australia that can sustain maximum bipartisan consensus. We need to look to the next 30 years, not just the next three. Our national security interests should transcend the partisan divide. The brave men and women who serve in our defence force, our intelligence and law enforcement agencies, deserve that stability and clarity from their government. That extends to how we equip and resource our military. A defining characteristic of this liberal national government is an enduring focus on an announcement, but not on the delivery of them. In the 2009 defence white paper, the red government outlined the need to change the force structure of the ADF to enhance our nation's naval capabilities. Yet here we are, nearly a decade after the Liberal Party was elected and still no actual progress. Billions of dollars wasted on the French contract. After a production line of no less than six defence ministers in this government and two goes at landing on a model, first in Japan then France, we now have no contract for any submarine, an alluming submarine-shaped capability gap. And it leaves the next government with another repair job, healing the wounds inflicted on the Australia-France relationship, not forgetting, of course, the earlier damage to the relationship with our other close partner, Japan. The entire episode is the greatest defence procurement disaster we have ever seen in this country. Unfortunately, it's not the only procurement fumble. The future figures are 15 billion dollars over budget. Think about that. 15 billion dollars over budget and delayed into the next decade. There is now concern they might be too heavy and too slow. That's the defence evidence before centre estimates. There are now 30 major defence projects that are running a total of 79 years late. 17 major projects are running 4.3 billion dollars over budget and some projects that have been completed don't deliver what taxpayers paid for, such as helicopters that can't away shoot their weapons. The 2020 strategic update announced traditional 10-year warning times no longer apply, yet the acquisition of new submarines has been pushed out by up to two decades. Labor offered bipartisan support for the update and the budget expenditure associated with it, including 270 billion dollars of capability acquisition. We have also offered support for the nuclear powered submarines. We recognise this will mean defence budgets beyond the 2 percent benchmark. Let me be clear. Labor will ensure that defence has the resources it needs to defend Australia as well as to deter potential aggressors. It is unwise to discuss specific defence acquisitions from opposition, where we do not have the detail of the benefit of detailed advice from all of the experts and I won't try doing this today. But what I can say is that it will be incumbent on us to deliver a frank assessment of our capabilities and a pipeline once we arrive in government. For instance, we'll consider whether Tomahawk missiles can be fitted to the Collins class submarines, something that's been suggested by defence experts as a practical way of making a difference right now in the next few years. We will review progress of the Frigates project and explore whether our naval power could be bolstered through upgraded weapons on the Arrafura class offshore patrol vessels or through additional Hobart class air warfare destroyers. We would also work with defence and those experts who have identified the need for government to quickly increase Australia's strike capabilities. We'll deepen our regional defence cooperation with close partners including Japan, India, Singapore and others to bolster our joint capabilities, shape our strategic environment and uphold the rules of the road. And Labor will plan for how we address submarine capability in the period until we receive the nuclear powered submarines. The Morrison government has been dropping hints about submarines but offered no clarity. This week also saw an announcement about an announcement with the government promising that it would announce the location of a new submarine base in Australia sometime in 2023. Now no doubt this is driven by an election timetable rather than a full analysis of our overall force posture which has not been done since Labor was last in power. Labor has already committed to a defence force posture review to consider our long-term posture particularly our strategically crucial northern and western approaches. In government this review will provide a more reliable basis for decisions on the final location of a new submarine base. I turn now to cyber security. Now when I was first elected to parliament in 1996 Google hadn't even launched let alone become a verb. Fax machines were a main form of interaction. When I worked as a minister in the before a minister in the hawk government we were very excited to get a fax machine in Tommy Wren's office until we realised the only other person we knew with the fax machine was the prime minister's office because we got it second. The world moves on technologically very quickly you'll probably read about that in coming days given the interest in my statements of the 1980s. Technology has fundamentally irreversibly changed the way we work the way we communicate the way we shop and bank and loan. As a consequence cyber attacks represent a threat to our way of life. Australia has already been the target of state sponsored cyber attacks aimed at political parties, government departments, universities and corporations. These are attempts to destabilise the foundations of our society to destabilise our democracy but they are also attempts to hurt everyday people, to raid bank accounts, steal identities, rip off small businesses and abuse private information. Cyber crime costs the Australian economy an estimated $33 billion every year. Our security agencies are very good at what they do in this space but true national cyber resilience is a whole of nation endeavour. It's not just about who has the best offensive cyber tools it's about building systemic resilience across public, private and civil organisations. It's also about recognising that sovereign domestic data security is a modern foundation of national security and with nearly every one of us carrying precious data around in our pockets it's about recognising the storage of our data much of which is offshore has implications for our sovereignty and security for some types of data appropriately securing it may require mandating that it be kept here in Australia. Lifting cyber resilience across the nation across public, private and civil systems requires political leadership and that's why I kept a dedicated role for cyber security in our shadow ministry that Tim Watts has performed admirably on since 2019. Cyber security needs to be someone's day job not the last item on another minister's to-do list. Of course our ability to execute on any of the priorities I've spoken about will be enhanced with a stronger more secure economy at home. Labor's plan to build back stronger draws on the lessons of the pandemic namely that the end of a global supply chain is a precarious place to be. Economic resilience is at the core of Labor's future made in Australia plan. Building up our capacity for making things here leaves us less vulnerable to economic coercion and global shocks by ensuring we make more of what we strategically need the less we are hostage to global supply chains. I've already announced several elements of this plan including its centerpiece our National Reconstruction Fund. We've also released our Defence Industry Development Plan which will sustain defence supply chains develop our sovereign defence industry and encourage innovative innovation in both defence and wider industry. Labor's plan for a national strategic fleet of Australian flag vessels will underpin security of supply for critical commodities like fuel. Labor will elevate trade diversification. Government needs to focus not just on new markets for our existing exports but also work alongside business and unions to support the development of the future products and services that Australia will sell to the world. Of course nation building is about more than economic strength. Democratic strength is also critical to our long term stability and security. Our democracy faces new challenges from foreign interference and disinformation. At home right-wing extremism is on the rise fueled by a mixture of social isolation and online echo chambers. Responding to this trend requires building the legitimacy and trust in our democratic institutions. Unfortunately the Morrison government has waged a prolonged assault on accountability dragging Australia down to its lowest level on record in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index. The doctrine of ministerial responsibility has been comprehensively trashed and the Prime Minister has reneged on his promise of a National Anti-Corruption Commission. I will deliver one. It is not just our institutions that matter social cohesion too will be vital to an effective response to these threats. In government Labor will draw on our long tradition of support for multiculturalism and look to unite the country not divide it. We will do this because it is right and because inclusion is a vital part of our democratic strength. Labor has always understood the need to work with others around the globe to support our security and economic strength and to shape the world for the better. Labor also understands creating stronger global partnerships requires rebuilding our diplomatic capability including development assistance. Of course our long-standing alliance with the United States is a central pillar of our foreign policy and a Labor government will be an energetic and trusted alliance partner. This is why we give strong support to AUKUS and why we will make sure that the Quad delivers in our region. Penny Wong and I were recently able to underline this in person to Quad foreign ministers. We understand that such partnerships are crucial to Australia's interests which is why we will strengthen our political, economic and military ties with India and Japan as well as with regional partners such as Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea and Vietnam. We are committed to elevating our engagement with countries of Southeast Asia and ASEAN. Building on our legacy as the party that secured Australia as ASEAN's first dialogue partner in 1974. Enhancing our bilateral relationships with Indonesia and India will be a priority. We will work with Jakarta to deliver a $200 million climate and infrastructure partnerships and will deliver the economic expansion that the Indonesia-Australia comprehensive economic partnership agreement promised but has not delivered. We also see New Zealand as a central partner in this regional effort. For too long, Canberra has preferred to talk at Wellington rather than realizing the potential of our shared experiences. Our regional engagement is also critical to how we manage the China relationship. Our approach to the China relationship will be determined by our interests and our values. A commitment to international law, rules-based trade and respect for human rights, embolested by our regional partnerships and alliances. Labor's position on current questions of national security is clear and established. The search for false distinctions between the government and the opposition on China is not in Australia's national interest as both current and former leaders of our security and intelligence agencies have stated so clearly. We have the same position on the South China Sea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and human rights abuses against the Uighurs and Tibetans. I was a member of the Gillard government that brought US Marines to Darwin and as shadow infrastructure minister I opposed the sale of the port of Darwin. One area where Labor and the coalition diverged significantly is climate change. Our allies including the United States and the United Kingdom understand that the global climate emergency is a direct threat to global security. Without meaningful action, climate change will create major population displacement. It will drive a surge in refugees and create new grounds for conflict over ever-scarcer, clean water and fertile land. Too many Australians have firsthand knowledge of the brutality of bushfires, drought and flood. Climate change is here now. I have announced a comprehensive plan on climate change fully costed out there for all to see. As part of this on coming to government, I will ask the Director-General of National Intelligence and the Secretary of the Defense Department to undertake a risk assessment of the implications of climate change for national security. Instead of playing a positive role in the global effort to combat climate change, the truth is that Australia is seen as one of the recalcitrant nations holding action back. This undermines our status and our presence in the region. Our bid to host a future conference of the parties in Australia with our Pacific partners would assist our regional standing and credibility as a partner in the Pacific. In conclusion can I say that to serve as Prime Minister of Australia is a rare privilege. It's only been 30. If successful I am determined to restore a greater sense of responsibility to the Office of Prime Minister, a deeper respect for the Australian people and for the integrity of our democracy, real accountability and real delivery. I will lead a government that keeps us promises. I'll be determined to bring the country together rather than look for wedges day after day trying to divide it. Our national security is a national asset which must be nurtured. Strengthening it means investing in our ADF and our defence capability, supporting our security agencies, deepening our strategic partnerships in the region and the world. A Labor government will always hold these as priorities. Beyond this investing in cybersecurity, supporting more self-reliance when it comes to manufacturing and production of other goods. An acting on climate change will strengthen our nation and it will build shared prosperity. We will be a government in service of Australia's enduring values, freedom, fairness, democracy and a multicultural society that enriches us all. I've always thought that Australia when you look at the faces around our great country we can be a microcosm for the world that shows that people of different ethnicities, religions, backgrounds can come together and live in harmony. That is my vision and my commitment. An Australia that's stronger in the world, an Australia that's united at home. A resilient, self-reliant and a secure Australia. Thanks very much. Well Anthony thank you for those wide-ranging remarks, setting out Labor's worldview and its agenda for government. They'll be read very closely here in Australia and abroad over coming weeks. So thank you very much and thank you also for agreeing to have a conversation with me and take some questions from our audience in the room and online and media. Let me go back in time a bit if I can. You've served in parliament since 1996. You've been in politics for longer than that. You've seen all of Australia's recent PMs up close. From a foreign policy perspective, who among them have you really admired? Is there a foreign policy Prime Minister you'd like to emulate perhaps if you're elected PM? Well I did get to see Kevin Rudd up close at the first G20 meeting that was held in London. Context of course a global financial crisis. Kevin was able to go between the President Obama, the Chinese delegation and all the countries there to try to get some some common interest and one of the things I witnessed there was first hand saw Australia punching above our weight and I saw as well the context for that was that I did attend two of the UN framework convention on climate change conferences in 2005 and six in Montreal and in Nairobi and the difference in terms of Australia's standing when we were part of global effort rather than in the Nordic corner refusing to ratify Kyoto was really evident to me on that frame. I think also that the relationship that Julia Gillard forged with President Obama in particular was extraordinary. It led to Julia addressing Washington in what was a celebrated address and I think a great honour for our country. It led as well to the presence of the increased presence of the Marines and the United States in the Northern Territory. So I saw them very much up close. I think historically Australian Labor Prime Ministers have always been interested in the world. It's what we do whether it be Bob Hawke and Paul Keating I saw from more of a distance. I was a young staffer in the in the Hawke government and Bob and Paul have been very generous. Bob while he was alive with their time and Paul I spoke to this week. They've always been generous at being prepared to reach out. So they to me are important but going going way back you know you look at some of the debates that are now happening in the parliament. Truth is John Curtin of course became Prime Minister as you know without a without a vote of the people was a vote of the parliament. During at our darkest hour the parliament turned to John Curtin and I think he's legacy and as well something I take from that as well and we have borrowed some of the terminology with national reconstruction. The fact that John Curtin appointed Ben Chifley as the Minister for Post-War Reconstruction at the height of the war wasn't in 1945 at the height of the war how do you plan coming out and that to me is something that I've looked at as well in terms of the pandemic in that context. How do we build back stronger? What about international leaders that you've looked at and admired. I notice you're wearing the colors yellow and blue today I don't know if that's an homage to Ukraine. It is indeed. You mentioned President Zelensky what have you thought about the way he's led his country over the last couple of weeks. I think he's shown extraordinary courage and leadership in extraordinarily difficult circumstances particularly when asked about whether or what he needed you know he called for arms if sent ammunition and it's very clear that they're up against a much greater military machine in Russia but they are defending their sovereignty their democracy and it is quite inspirational I think and what we're seeing as a result of that courage is some real positives in terms of the European Union acting in a cohesive way NATO western democracies all coming together and the Australian people I think that they have because of that just extraordinary grassroots support not just amongst leaders but I think it is quite inspirational. You mentioned John Curtin and you referred to that famous statement he made in the Melbourne Herald in December 1941 without any inhibitions of any kind I make it quite clear that Australia looks to America. If you were elected Prime Minister would Australia still look to America and what does that mean in 2022 what kind of an ally would you like Australia to be for the United States? It means that America still is the global leader of democracies and one of the things about the United States is with all of its faults which all democracies have they can get a bit messy we've seen that in recent times the institutional strength of the United States in terms of its military industrial complex its strength for democracies is something quite extraordinary so I've participated in the Australian-American leadership dialogue for a couple of decades and as a result of that you forge friendships across the aisle as well with Democrats and Republicans with people from the defence for establishment security agencies and I think that is that is important and I think there's an opportunity as well with the Biden administration in terms of their views of the world are pretty similar to Australian Labor's views of the world now in terms of taking action on climate change for example and that that is something that's important in itself but it also has a real foreign policy connection to it in the Pacific there is no question it is the number one issue that Pacific nations are concerned about and if you're not seen to be taking taking that seriously it undermines your efforts in other areas as well given that we have a strategic competition occurring in the region with China seeking to be more assertive and China seeking to exercise more influence Australia needs to step up in partner with the United States and other like-minded countries I think there's a real opportunity to strengthen that relationship and that's why in the commemorative speeches that were given in the parliament for the 70th anniversary of ANZIS that was the big distinction I think between myself and Prime Minister Morrison's speech in that it acknowledged climate as being a central national security issue well let me take you to that question of differences because there's been a lot of discussion in recent weeks about how similar or different the two sides policies are Labor has a distinctive and proud foreign policy tradition apart from climate what would you nominate as differences between Labor and the coalition how would you like to do the job of Prime Minister internationally different from Mr Morrison apart from climate where I think the differences are quite clear I think historically Labor has been more prepared to reach out in the region whether it be Paul Keating and the role that he played in terms of APEC whether it be when we were last in government for example I spoke today about the Indonesian relationship when we were in government I traveled to Indonesia regularly set up the Indonesian Transport Safety Assistance Package which was all about assisting Indonesian economic development in terms of infrastructure but also practical measures the number of Indonesians who lose their life particularly at times like Ramadan in terms of maritime safety is is a major major issue there and we provided training through the Australian Maritime Safety Authority we provide there would be a substantial proportion of Indonesian air traffic controllers would have been trained here and had some experience with their services Australia Luke Gosling's in the audience here today as the member for Solomon he's very conscious of the relationship with Indonesia and each team and I gave him a special job has had of a task force to look at that as well in India is an area in which the Vargaese report was commissioned by this government but I think it would be a very brave person to suggest it to been fully implemented there are enormous opportunities for growth in the region and even if you look at the economic opportunities that are there whether there's a synergy between security in terms of energy security action on climate and foreign policy objectives and our own national economic objectives as well a project like Powering Singapore with the Sun Cable project from Tennant Creek is an enormous example of whereby we can seize the opportunity that is there from the fact that we're in the fastest growing region of the world in human history which has replaced our disadvantage in terms of the tyranny of distance from Europe and North America we now have a strategic advantage that's an economic plus but also has foreign policy and security implications by building up those relations let me ask you about diplomacy because a lot of the labour achievements you're talking about were hard won through by our diplomats for the over the past two decades I think most observers would say that DFAT has been marginalised in Canberra and certainly in terms of funding in the aftermath of DFAT funding for our security agencies skyrocketed and funding for DFAT flatlined we have fewer diplomats posted overseas today than we did three decades ago for example what how would Labor put a renewed emphasis on diplomacy would you commit to spending more money on DFAT would you commit to expanding our diplomatic network in office well Penny Wong has very strong views on this and they might or might not be exactly the same as our finance shadow minister but one of the things that we've emphasised is there is a need to step up in terms of our diplomatic efforts and sometimes it can be really short-sighted as well that you withdraw support and make cuts that have been made and you end up then just not having the capacity that you need to be able to engage in in soft diplomacy is really important as well not just at a time of crisis but how do you build those relations over a period of time DFAT attracts some of the best you you go as a parliamentarian as a minister or as as an MP the last delegation I went on in opposition was to India the the quality of our people in India was extraordinary from the High Commissioner down but there hadn't been a delegation a parliamentary delegation from Australia to India for more than a decade that that that's absurd frankly given our place in the world that that had occurred so those relationships building soft diplomacy support for foreign affairs and trade respect as well for our diplomats they bring incredible capacity and they're they're outstanding they're our representatives on the global stage and I think we need to do much better you will see a much bigger effort both in terms of quantity but also in terms of quality the marginalisation that has occurred I'm not against political appointments and some of them have been very good I think that to give an example Barry Farrill in India is someone who has a genuine interest in India and is I think doing doing a good job but it might just be possible for someone to leave the parliament as an LNP member and not get a job somewhere like like that would be a good idea like it's reached it's absurd and and that undermines confidence in DFAT well what what is that saying to the people who have worked their guts out study develop relationships and just get someone plonked in over the top of them who has no experience in in that area so I think respect for our public service in general is something that we are going to have to do and senior public servants who are always pretty discreet will stop me and introduce themselves to me in airports or business forums people who've left the public service and just say it is as bad it is worse than it has ever been and it is something a task that we are going have to embark upon if we're successful in May I'm reminded by your comments are one of our finest former career diplomats Penny Wensley and a board member of the Lowey Institute is in the audience today all right let me ask you a couple of questions about hard power let me ask you about AUKUS when the government announced AUKUS in September 21 the Labor Party made the decision to support AUKUS within a couple of days that may not have been straightforward probably as a young man you didn't go into parliament to build a nuclear powered submarine fleet but actually I want to congratulate you speaking personally on that move because I do think given Australia's geography and our geopolitics having that sort of deterrent capability is incredibly important but let me probe you a bit further on Labor's commitment to AUKUS and in particular the the nuclear boats and I have a question here from Steven Jedgich from ABC News on this topic this is Steven's question several Labor MPs have questioned whether the government can overcome the formidable technical regulatory and legal challenges posed by the nuclear subs plan are you committed if you win power to press ahead with the project no matter what for example if the 18 month review reveals profound difficulties posed by civil nuclear industry limitations in Australia or an astronomical price tag well above even the current estimates will Labor simply press ahead or are you willing to contemplate other options we're committed to the project we're committed to the project based upon the advice that we received we got a briefing I travelled to Canberra I wasn't sure what for but got asked to to go the day before the briefing we were briefed on the Wednesday afternoon myself Brendan Richard Miles and Penny Wong received a full briefing from the head of defence all of the appropriate authorities that were there we had a discussion then about how we would proceed I convened a full shadow cabinet meeting for very early the next morning I kept the confidence that we were given it was briefed out that we'd been brief but that's a matter for the Prime Minister's media office to explain that we then had a full caucus meeting on that morning 9 30 a.m so by 11 30 I think it was I was standing up at the CPO here backing in the project and we did it because of the advantage of nuclear propulsion simply in terms of the tasks that we have in terms of speed the capacity to stay submerged all of the the advantages that it has which were very clear and the advice was clear and we took that clear advice and we made a very clear sober decision I think that was an example of the maturity of the Australian Labor Party I think if you compare that with the opportunistic statements to call it for what it is including on national security of our opponents I'm proud of what we did in less than 24 hours we then of course now know as well that the United States's position was at a precondition of their support for caucus and these arrangements certainly was a bipartisan commitment that it wouldn't have happened without that occurring so that's very clear it wouldn't have statement wouldn't have been made so we look forward to undoubtedly there there will be some some challenges and we're aware of them not the least of which is the capability gap which is there that I spoke about today that's why again we would if we're successful in government look at more immediate issues we need to look at our national security in within the the 10-year time frame as a strategic update indicated in 2020 but there's a contradiction between that and the statements of policy that are aimed at 2040 including today's what about I'm going to come to the audience in in just one minute but what about defense spending more generally the government's criticism of Labor is at the last time you were in power government spending on defense sunk to the lowest level since the Second World War now you've committed Labor to spending at least two percent of the GDP on on defense but in government quite rightly you and your colleagues would also have lots of other priorities social justice issues climate change mitigation post-pandemic recovery how will you keep that that tough commitment of at least two percent yeah well it's I make two points there one is it's a triumph of spin over substance the criticism of the former Labor government the difference in spending was 0.03 percent between the Howard government period and the Rudd-Gillard government period so from memory I think it's 1.78 compared with 1.75 it might be 0.77 to 74 but it's 0.03 of a difference that's the difference between the two secondly in terms of spend as I said today in my speech and others have pointed out including Greg Sheridan we it you shouldn't get credit for spending money that doesn't produce anything and that's what's happened they have spent money on deals that Japan France other equipment that hasn't resulted in defense materiel being produced so whilst this government has it's true spent spent money the outcomes is the problem the gap that's there between the announcement and the delivery and they're always there up for an announcement I mean I find it interesting that as another announcement today the Prime Minister was here on this stage how many days ago two or three why is an announcement being made today about defense issues I think we know the answer so you know we we actually need to treat national security issues seriously and to be aiming at outcomes and that will be what we will do we are in an insecure world we do have a change in the posture of China an explicit change where Xi Jinping will be going to the conference as you said seeking an additional term we have Putin determined to stay there and exercise power and influence those issues mean that in a more insecure world you need to spend more money on national security and you need to do it in a way though that is strategic and produces outcomes that looks at not just what what some would see as traditional defense equipment and personnel but issues like cyber like data storage the issues that I raised in the speech as well we have time for one or two questions from the audience in the room I've is there anybody who'd like to ask a question I can see Paul Kelly from the Australian because the advice is well I thought I argued it just a bit before so I'll repeat myself the propulsion of nuclear fuel as opposed to the Collins class subs can simply stay under for longer they are less observable and some of the things we've received in briefing but that's you know the technical term the whole idea of a submarine and why submarines are important to our national security is that unlike a frigate or a plane they can't be seen so they act as a deterrent and the truth is that a nuclear propelled submarine is much more effective at it than the Collins class or other options which are available because they can be less detectable and one of the briefings that we had in terms of on that day in terms of defence went to that so it's a matter of them being more effective it's as simple as that which is why we were unequivocal in terms of our support there was no hedging by Labor and you know I think that that as a base as well going forward we're determined that Australia should have the best defence equipment possible that's available and the only statements that we made as well in terms of compliance with the MPT we received those assurances as well so we were very confident which is why I took a clear commitment to our shadow cabinet and to our caucus processes we had NSC that afternoon effectively we then had shadow cabinet and caucus processes but I don't think with respect Paul it's fair to say that your characterization there is fair I think we've been very clear and we've been clear why it's not because we think you know it's cooler to have a nuclear propulsion sub it's because it's more effective I'll take one more question from the room Richard McGregor from the Lowy Institute thank you you talked about your I would say alignment with a lot of the government's policies on China you annunciated the reasons for that but I wonder if you really think the government has handled this so well that there's nothing that we could do better so my question is what would you have done differently on China and what will you do differently on China well in terms of our views on for example the 14 points that were put forward we would have been exactly the same for China or any other country for that matter putting forward a a list of demands that's an attack on our sovereignty and was rejected and the government was right to reject it we will continue to stand up for Australia's values China has changed it is it is not under the Labor government that welcomed Xi Jinping to the national parliament and made the statements that that were made at that time during during that visit but I'm not critical of Tony Abbott for that time it was a different period Labor also if you look at the 2009 review that we did on defense there were there was criticism at the time that that was insensitive towards China because of the statements that were made not the case now that review looks like it was pretty spot-on at the time I think minister Dutton or one of his comments he's walked away from or stepped back from he's wise to have done so I support essentially the similar position that that has been put forward by Kirk Campbell and others in the Biden administration I think he's got it right about competition without catastrophe in the region is what we need to look for and if there's a criticism I have of the current government it isn't about any of the substances about some of the the political misuse that's occurred national security issues should should not be a play thing to try to secure domestic political advantage and anyone who's seen frankly some of the absurd comments that were made by the government particularly in the last sitting week of parliament and the attempted gestures and looking for a wedge looking for a distinction that is not in Australia's political interest it's just not and you had the extraordinary circumstance whereby to their credit the foreign minister didn't back in those comments but nor did the secretary of the Department of Defense nor did the Director-General of Asia nor did previous Director-General of Asia's ambassadors to Washington and others as well called it out takes a fair bit but Dennis Richardson to make the comments that he did it takes more than a fair bit for the current Director-General of Asia to have to have a couple of conversations about briefings and discussions that we had had that appropriately should be you know in in the vault forever except that people were calling out something that just wasn't based upon the facts and I received briefings and get advice from and not just the Director-General of Asia but the heads of ASD and ONI and all of these agencies all the time and cooperate with them but we were forced into you know a position whereby I asked and this all on the record now I asked Mr Burgess is it okay if I say I consulted with you before I attended an event for example are there any issues here and that's something as leader of the opposition I take very seriously and I don't I think that taking national security seriously means not looking for partisan domestic advantage based upon falsehoods that's all we have time for today Anthony Albanese I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today you're one of the busiest people in the country and today you've paid us the compliment of giving a really thoughtful and wide-ranging speech and then taking questions on everything from China to climate change to nuclear submarines so thank you very much thanks very much Michael I think we scheduled this at least a year ago with with COVID and various things but I'm glad that we've been able to keep the commitment thanks to Lowy for the work that you do as well it is you are part of our our national security foreign affairs landscape that civil organizations like yours are very important in what I was talking about in terms of our institutional strength isn't just about government it's also about bodies like Lowy so congratulations for the work you do that's nice of you to say thank you we did schedule a little while ago we probably we've probably both been looking forward to it almost as much as we have to the first South Sydney game on Friday in Brisbane so indeed thank you very much for keeping your rendezvous with the Institute thank you everybody who joined us here at Bly Street and online I'm confident that these issues will be aired more in current in in the next few weeks I'm also pleased to tell you that after two years of lockdown Lowy Institute researchers are hitting the road again and my brilliant colleagues and I will be in Melbourne and Canberra in the next month talking about some of these issues so please join us in those at those events but in the meantime thank you again for joining us for this special event with the opposition leader Anthony Albanese thank you very much and good afternoon