 excited to have Tony Bell here with us for our ask and answer. And it is the bottom of the half an hour people joining us from around the world ready to get going. How about you? Let's do it. I'm sorry I'm not super nerdy like Jared, but I'm thrilled to be here and thank you for inviting me. Well, you know we're excited. We thought it actually so interesting because Jared's vacationing in your home state. I was going to say, I think she's in my neck of the woods. Which is crazy. But we just love what you have to say and we're like, you know what, when we talk with you, we're talking about cause selling and we're talking about the cause selling program that fundraising in Cavany has and we always have so many questions and we're so drilled down into the process and into the cycle and the phases and then we're just like, wow, I bet he has like this amazing perspective on things. So let's get him on ask and answer and see what he's really made up. So we're excited to put you in the hot seat today. Again, we want to thank our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not have this amazing conversation that we get to have every day. And my personal favorite is Fridays, the ask and answer because it's always so interesting to see what our nonprofit folks across the country are thinking about pondering. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. You know that. But this is Tony Bell of National University. This gentleman is super crazy busy with a lot of different things. Leading the fundraising Academy cause selling education program is one of them. And if you've been able to join us through our archives or through our live shows, we've been working with Tony and his team for several months now on actually going through step by step with fundraising academies program. It has been amazing. And Tony, we say this, if we don't say this every issue, our episode, I'm surprised, but I'm like, where were you 20 years ago? That's that seems to be the recurring theme for our our sessions around cause selling. Absolutely. And you know, I enjoy every conversation that we have and and our, you know, our engagement around these topics. So so I appreciate you and Jarrett very much. Thank you. We, you know, we love the sector. We have a lot of passion. We have a lot of curiosity about it. But sometimes I'm like, what the hell was I thinking? Why didn't I know that? And I think cause selling has been one of those. Okay, but let's get into the meat and potatoes of them. Yes. Okay, Shane from Chicago, Illinois. We have a significant donor who's just made a huge investment in a new program. They do not want to be recognized, nor do they want us to use their name. We feel that if our community knew that this family was behind us, others would follow. How do we navigate this issue? Well, yeah, no, that that is a great, great question. And it's not uncommon, you know, for a major donor to ask for that kind of anonymity in their gift. And there could be, you know, there's so many reasons why a donor may ask that one is, you know, they don't want to have to now start fielding a bunch of requests from other organizations because good fundraisers are constantly prospecting and paying attention to who's giving and what they're giving to or investing in. So, you know, so that's just one of the many reasons why a major donor may not want that information to be made public. So and I've been in that situation, I have always respected that position of the major donor. And in fact, a long time ago when I first started my career, an organization lost a significant gift, transformational gift, because the donor wanted to remain anonymous, and a board member did not respect that anonymity. And so it was shared in the community. So, you know, our communities, you know, the community of donors is pretty, pretty tight in a lot of our regions. And so it didn't take long for that to get back to the donor and the gift was rescinded. You know, what about going to that donor and sharing just what was communicated that if other, you know, folks, small to large saw that you were investing that it might attract other funding opportunities? Yeah, so I think, you know, you clearly are at a stage with this donor where you have a really great relationship. There's a tremendous level of trust there because they have decided here to, you know, make a huge investment in your organization. So because you have that, and I'm making the assumption that you have that great relationship, I would say that that's totally appropriate. Absolutely. To go to them. But make sure my recommendation would be that your conversation is not hypothetical, that the conversation with the large investor is very specific so that you can speak to a percentage, perhaps, you know, if we were to make this donation known public in terms of you and your personal commitment to our cause, I expect that we could, you know, increase our funding by another 20% or throw out, you know, your gift may allow us to raise an additional X number of dollars. So yeah, I totally support that. I think that's absolutely spot on jewelry is to have that conversation and share with them the value of their gift being made public. But be very specific about how, you know, how they're that exposure, because clearly for some reason they don't want that exposure, but how their willingness to be exposed in that way is going to really further the opportunity for you to raise money for this new program. You know, I'm reminded I hadn't thought of this for years, but years ago I was part of a very large transformational gift. I was on the team, I was actually the person that got to do the ask. And it was a crazy amount of money and I had never been involved like that. And I didn't do the heavy lifting. I got to do the sexy part of the ask, you know, the development team had done all this work. It was the nation's largest domestic violence shelter. And it was a very significant gift. And I, because my background was media was like, and then we can do this big roll out. And the guy was like, absolutely not not this needs to be an anonymous gift. And he said, and this just was so chilling. He said, I don't want my name associated with domestic violence, because I don't want anyone to think that that is something that's going on in my life or my family's life. And because it would impact his business, you know, that's what his mentality was. And it was just such a chilling reminder of the impact of what we were talking about. Right. And I was so taken aback, but I asked him, I said, may I use your story when I'm talking to other donors without disclosing your name or your family's name or your business, but to share that that when we have social plagues that we need to be talking about them and not only just investing in them. And he was kind of struck because it was kind of a bold thing I think to ask. I'm sure the development team was like, shut up, Julia. Julia, by then they knew you, they couldn't have been that surprised. I was just like, oh my gosh. But you know, it was really chilling because the money made a lot of impact. But I just have always, and I'll go to my grave thinking if, you know, maybe he had been able to witness to our community and other communities, the impact would have been bigger. But we had to say what's more important, the money or this other thing. And it was really an interesting part of the process. And so, wow. That's a super informative point of view. You know, what that what that donor shared with you about about their point of view with regards to, you know, them being made, you know, being known publicly for that contribution. It's really, really fascinating. Yeah, it was. And you know, it is, you know, he cannot be the only person that ever thought this. Absolutely. That's why I'm saying it's such an informative point of view. It's like, think about people that have, you know, substance abuse causes and things, everything from AIDS to HIV. Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, okay, Adina from Lexington, Kentucky. Adina, that's such a great name. That's a super great name. And Adina, let's see what you've got to say. How do you feel about board member requirements? We have a board who is not working and we are wondering if we need a printed document that spells out their duties. This is not only fundraising, but participation. Right. Well, first of all, you know, we need to thank board members for their contributions to not their volunteers, right? They're volunteers. I always say board members are volunteers with the highest level of accountability to the organization, right? So, so we, we, you know, first, I just want to thank board members for their contributions of their time, talent and treasured organizations. But imagine, so Adina, imagine you start a new job. You saw a job title with a company and you were excited about it. So you applied. But all you know, going into the job is your job title and the name of the company you're working for. How do you know if you're succeeding? If you're meeting expectation? How do you know it's expected of you unless there's a job description or something that defines your role and responsibility? So when we, when we talk about it, again, here I go with broke, you know, maybe at a broken record, where we talk about 501c3 being a tax status and not a business model. This is why it's important that there be a job description, you know, Adina, your spot on there needs to be a job description, some type of role and responsibility document for board members so that they understand what the expectation is. A lot of times we lose board members because they don't feel like they're contributing in any meaningful way. And part of that is because no one's explained to them kind of the expectation or guided them in terms of how they can contribute and feel relevant and meaningful, you know, in their board service. So absolutely I am 100%, you know, a fan and support some type of written document. And it can be again a job description or something that spells out roles and responsibilities. And many organizations as a best practice have board members sign that document at the annual meeting every year. So as they're starting a new term or as part of their onboarding onto the board, they would acknowledge and sign this roles and responsibilities document. So that's my thought on that I think absolutely. Yeah, you know, I think that's good. And I appreciate your lead into it because you're probably a lot more kind than I have been. And I I see this word requirement. And I think that that is somewhat almost becomes like a punitive word. And so to use your your word about job description, I think that's better for everyone. And so I like that. And, you know, Adina, to your organization, it would be really, really smart to step back, write that job description, get your board members involved, past board members even, and to say what does this look like? And can we measure this? I suspect you would have funders that would really appreciate this. I agree. Yeah, and I agree with you. And I would say that, you know, Adina shouldn't staff shouldn't really own this. Really, you know, I would encourage the board chair to make this an activity of the board. Okay. And and have, you know, there's there's plenty of fantastic. What do we do before Google? There's plenty of fantastic templates out there. You know, and I often, you know, in cheering on board source is a great organization has remarkable resources there. You know, get some samples and have, you know, hopefully encourage the board, one, get their buy in that this needs to exist and all of the reasons why it exists, not only for the benefits of the board and the benefit of the organization, but ultimately the benefit of the community that you're serving, because there will be that trickle, you know, who you're serving will see that benefit as well. Yeah. And I think too, if you're looking at board recruitment, this is something that a savvy board member would want to ask about. I mean, as opposed to somebody who's like, oh, wow, how sexy I get to be, I get to say I'm on a board versus the person that's like, I do board work. I want to know what you expected me because I'll have expectations of you nonprofit. Exactly. And so I think that's important. And that and I'm sorry, in that job description, because Adina mentioned fundraising, you know, participation and fundraising. And of course, that job description could encapsulate, you know, have both. Yeah, the definition of participation and the definition of fundraising expectations. Right. And also, I would say, because you just pointed that out, you're going to have policies, you're going to have your bylaws that will actually stipulate what your quorum numbers are. So you need to refer back to that to make sure that you're everybody's, you know, rowing in the same direction. Okay. Oh, this is fun. We have somebody from Austin, Texas. Okay. Talk about sexy. Austin is like hopping in a poppin right now. Golly. I mean, Austin is like it. Okay, Thomas writes in general, can you recommend a percentage increase in annual donor revenue? We're working on our annual budget. And I am wondering if you are aware of any trends we should know about. In the past, our goals have not been very strategic, just random at best. We need more money. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, there there are a couple, I think a couple of different ways to go with with this. One is, this is where, you know, being as nerdy as possible can be to your benefit because data is going to help you a lot in this arena, and especially your specific organizational data. So, you know, so really what what what has your organization done year over year? What has kind of that average increase been? So at least that's a baseline. If we don't do anything else differently, if we if we continue the way we are, we can expect that you know, there will be an increase of X. But you probably want more than that. So then you can start thinking about how you change the way that you're, you know, you're currently raising, raising funds, or the bulk of your funds coming from grants. So you have an opportunity now to build on individual giving is most of your giving through individuals. And now you have, you know, but you have an opportunity to build giving through grants or through corporations. So kind of looking at what, you know, again, your organizational history to kind of help you determine that benchmark for the next year. The other thing that I was going to recommend, I made some notes so I wouldn't forget, is the giving USA report is a dynamite report. Lots of great information. So even though, you know, it's a year behind, it still gives you again some sense of what's happening. I'm going to be fascinated when the next one comes out for the giving report for 2020. I'm just going to be really fascinated to see what that looks like. But the most recent one that came out, for example, I have this to share is that according to the giving USA report in 2019, environmental and animal organizations had an increase in funding of 11.3%. Huge. Huge. And do you know where the other one went down? Where? It was faith. Interesting. Yeah, faith-based, not faith-based organizations necessarily, but faith organizations. So people giving less money to religious institutions and going into the natural, you know, nature and animals. Yeah. Yeah, that is riveting. Yeah, no, that is riveting. I didn't even notice that when I was looking at the giving USA report. So, you know, so if you're in environmental or, you know, an animal organization, you know that, you know, during that year, giving went up 11.9%. So do you want your organization to have that challenge goal of meeting the national percentage, you know, or do you want it to be half of, I mean, at least that gives you a number. You can also connect with, you know, be sure you're connecting with your local, if you have one, your local community foundation. Because a lot of times they're doing a lot of the data research of in your local market around, you know, where donors are giving. Even within the own donor, you know, even within their donor advice funds that they may be managing, you can get an understanding of where the donors may be kind of shifting their allocations or their focus. That is so ding-dang smart. Because absolutely, I mean, they're on the front lines of big gifts. Also, before we move on to the next question, it seems to me, I hear you saying that you want to look at those revenue sources and not just have like one big giant goal, we need more money goal versus saying, okay, we want to increase grants, or we want to reduce grants, or we want to, you know, do corporate gifts, right? I mean, you're- So that's always been how I've led my businesses and the development, you know, teams that I've led is here's our annual goal. This is what we need to raise. But because we're not putting all of our eggs in one basket, right, we have multiple lanes in which we're raising funds, I would take that and then break it down and I would say, okay, I want- my expectation is in this year that 75% of our funding will come from individual donors and 20% will come from grants and 5% will come from corporations and another percent will come from special events, you know, and those types of activities. So I would typically break it down like that so that each lane in which we are raising funds, there is an expectation of what we will retain in terms of gifts in those lanes. I like that too because I think you, you know, get what you focus on and so if you're like, wow, we're really falling down on our giving society or we're really, you know, doing this or that. I mean, I think you're right. I appreciate that approach, Tony. Well, and to going back to the other question, it also helps board members get engaged and fundraising in an easier way. It's very specific and it helps them identify a lane that they might be passionate about. Maybe they're more passionate about trying to get money from a corporation than an individual or helping you uncover grant opportunities or reading your grant application before it gets submitted. Absolutely. Okay, let's go to Stuart in San Francisco, California. I'm a board chair and will be faced with replacing a retiring CEO. I am sorry. Yes. That was my first reaction to I was like, oh, bummer. Do you have any stats on how long it takes to fill a position such as this? We will not be able to draw internally. This will have to be a national search. Stuart from San Francisco. Yikes. Yeah. Yeah. So if it's a national, if you're doing a national search, I would expect anywhere from four to six months. Oh, okay. That's the truth. That's just, you know, that's my expectation. Just, you know, in order for you to do the proper vetting, in order for, because you're hiring a CEO, chances are you're going to be hiring someone that is an existing CEO. Right. And I'm making assumptions. I, you know, I don't think you're going to be elevating someone from this role to the CEO role for your organization. So, you know, again, in order to find that level of talent, in order for them to give their organization appropriate notice and leave there with grace and relocation time, I think you're looking at a minimum of four months, maximum six months. And so your interim plan is really important if for some reason your CEO, you know, if you can accomplish this within the time period that your CEO needs to leave, you need to also have what your interim plan is going to be to lead the organization during that time period where it may be without a CEO. You know, that's like really masterful advice, that interim piece. And I would also say, Stuart, I mean, San Francisco now is considered, you know, just as expensive as living in Manhattan. And so, I mean, I don't know if you're in the city or you're in the Bay Area, but do you think that that might be somewhat of a challenge? I mean, based on where you are geographically, you might need to up that time from that four to six months. That's kind of chilling. And Stuart, I say, get on your interim plan right now. For sure. And we, you know, of course, wish you lots of success. I'm sure you'll find the perfect candidate for your organization. And it's got to be somewhat stressful when you have someone that's probably, again, I'm making assumption when you say retiring CEO, they've probably been at the helm of this organization for a long time and are leaving quite the legacy. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that's, that's chilling. Okay, now this is always my favorite when we have a name withheld. And I have to witness to you, sometimes I withhold the name. Sometimes I'm like, okay, this is too dicey. I don't want you to know. Good for you, Julia. That's a true friend to everyone. Well, I mean, you know, I get questions all the time. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, man, okay, we have an employee who's serving on a board of another nonprofit, and the same service sector is ours. Is this a conflict of interest? What do your bylaws say? I mean, first, I would ask my bylaws what how, you know, Howard. So this is a really interesting question. And I don't know that I can even reconcile it in my own head in terms of, you know, is this a conflict of interest? Because when we talk about donors, we always say that donors are likely to give to more than one organization, you know, and it could still be within the same service sector, right? But I recognize that when, you know, when I think about breast cancer, there are many organizations that effectively serve that that segment, you know, of folks affected by breast cancer, but they do it in different ways. So when I contribute to one organization, it's because I know that they're, they're filling this particular part of that space. And I contribute to another one because they're contributing to a different space, because not one organization could be everything for the issues or, you know, that, that they're, that they're mission supports. So, so I struggle with, you know, do I think a board member should only be allowed to serve on one board within kind of that same social service area? It's really interesting. And I agree. I hadn't thought of it this way. Go to your, you know, your, your board policies, first and foremost, right out. That was, that's smart, because that should help guide you. And if it doesn't, that's another indication that maybe need to spend some time on that. But I'm seeing more and more national boards. And I don't know if you're seeing this too, and we don't have a lot of time left, Tony, but that if you go on to a national board, an organization that has chapters and multistates where it's a heavy lift, it might be very prestigious to serve on that type of a board. But it's very demanding that they will ask you to step off all your other boards for the period of time, which where you're serving. And I'm seeing that more and more. But in the case of this, I just feel like there could be some sharing of knowledge that might be a little perilous. Well, well, so, you know, so you can always consider an NDA, right, a nondisclosure. So that's, you know, so that's a mechanism that you could implement that, you know, that doesn't require them to choose. It just requires them to remain confidential. So, you know, so that might be an opportunity as well and NDA. I'm like stunned. Okay, well, you need to get back with us and let us know what you decide and what happens, name with health, because I'm going to be fascinated to see what comes of this. And I suspect as we end up the segment of Ask and Answer with a non-profit show and our special guest, Tony Bell, I thought we're going to have some comments to come in on this with people that have opinions. And so this is the first time we've ever had that question. And very, very interesting. Yeah, I know it's a great question. Yeah, really interesting. It's going to give me something to think about over my weekend. I'm just that kind of person. Sadly, the truth. Hey, Tony Bell of Fundraising Academy, what an honor and privilege to have you on with us. I think we're going to be doing this more. Really exciting to get your perspective. And thank you for sharing all of your time and talent with us. My pleasure. Oh, it's been a lot of fun. We want to remind everyone that the book club is certainly growing. We have a lot of new books in there. Check us out on the American Nonprofit Academy website. Again, we want to thank our presenting sponsors without you. We would not have such robust dialogue. And it's really been fun. We just passed Tony last Friday, our 300th episode. So thanks to our presenting sponsors with their grace and their investment in us. As we end this week, and has it been busy? We want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. Tony, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you, Julia.