 So I'm going to move now in to invite our wonderful panellists to introduce themselves. We've got six of those to introduce first. They're all coming onto the screen. Thank you. This bit is working great. Very pleased about that. And I think to make it easy for them, I'm just going to ask you in turn to introduce yourself. So if I can come to Vivian first and I'll go through the others. Vivian. Good morning or good afternoon. My name is Vivian Lewis and I have the great honor of being the university librarian at McMaster, which is a research intensive university in Hamilton, Canada. And in my spare time, I also am the vice president, president elect of Carl, the Canadian Association of Research Libraries, which is the voice of the 29 largest research libraries and two national libraries in Canada. I will say that Canada is a vast country and so our experiences are quite varied. And for this reason, I can offer you a great buffet of experiences with a distinctly Canadian flavor. I'm suggesting rugged adventure, tasty advice with a good helping of collaboration. I also had the great honor of speaking at the Recovery Retrench and Retreat event in June. And so I'm very excited to be able to share in this new feast with you today. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Vivian. Robin, people will know you, but you're next to my screen. Come in. Thanks, Jess. Hello, everyone. I'm Robin Green. I'm a librarian at the University of Warwick. And until a short time ago, I was chair of RLUK and just taken over from me. So RLUK, Research Libraries UK, it's our conference. And so I'm sure you're aware of who and what we are. But just to make sure we're a consortium of 37 of the leading research libraries in the UK and Ireland. I think that's including the National Libraries and the Library of the Welcome Trust. And we represent the collective voice of our members advocating on their behalf. And we're currently leading an Arts and Humanities Research Council funded study on the role of academic and research libraries as participants and leaders in scholarly research. And there's a survey on this topic, which is open to 21st of March. And if you want to participate, you can access via the RLUK website. So I couldn't resist the plug. Absolutely right, Robin. John. Good morning, everyone. My name is John Colshaw. I am the Jack B. King University Librarian at the University of Iowa. I'm located in Iowa City, Iowa, which is in the center of the United States, about four hours by car from Chicago to give you a little bit of perspective. I also have the privilege to serve as the president, the current president of the Association of Research Libraries, ARL. ARL is a group of 125 research libraries in the United States and Canada. We have members, much like Robin suggested for RLUK. We have most of the R1, the larger research institutions, along with some of our government libraries and some specialized research libraries in the US. We work together on issues of importance to all of our members. And given things that are going on in the US and elsewhere in the world these days, we have a very deep focus on diversity, equity and inclusion, and working to improve social justice for our BIPOC colleagues, both in our association and in our library. So glad to be here today. Thank you so much, John. And John is at one end of the day. And Jill is at another Jill. Welcome. Kaya. Hello. So my name is Jill Ben. And I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the Wajak Nunga Buja, the lands of the Wajak Nunga people and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging as is custom here in Australia. So I'm the university librarian at the University of Western Australia, which is located on the West Coast of Australia. And I'm also the current chair of the Council of Australian University Librarians, which similar to the other associations here is the peak body for all of the university libraries in Australia. Our members are the 39 University Librarians or equivalent of our universities. And I just wanted to say how tremendous it is to be here pre COVID. We probably wouldn't have thought about having this, this type of event. So thank you to our UK. And I think we're in for a really interesting event. Thank you so much, Jill. And last but not least, Astrid. Thank you, Jess. So my name is Astrid and I'm the executive director of Librar, the European Association of Research Libraries. I'm representing 450 libraries research libraries for more than 40 countries across Europe. We see more community is a very active one. We participate in lots of European projects and we have 150 volunteers members members working in 11 working groups. All of these groups work mostly on topics related to open science. In this session this afternoon, I will call on the results of a survey that we were conducted at the end of last year on the impact of COVID-19 on research libraries across Europe. Thank you so much Astrid. So just before we kind of go in just to remind you of the kind of rules of engagement because we really do want participation. So we're going to go into our first question a minute. We've got three question areas, although, you know, it will expand, I'm sure be on that with the interests of the audience as well. And really from now on, anybody can raise their hand and, you know, in the order in which you appear, our colleagues pine the scenes will invite you into the table. One question area is just so you've got a chance to think ahead, we'll be looking at experiences our takeaways from experience of COVID-19 expectations, what are the impacts and the legacies that we will be taking this time and opportunities which will close on in terms of working together internationally as a community. And although we are all acknowledging that we're a year into this pandemic and the dreadful impact it has had in so many ways on the lives of those we love and the communities in which we live. It's a great decision and I hope people will support this just spend the first 10 minutes or so on that experiences and then be moving forward into thinking about, you know, when next what does this take us. And that, but we want to pay tribute to begin with to those experiences and that's why it's improper as we all go through this kind of one year anniversary, or thereabouts in our nation so. It's great to see everybody and I'm going to take us into our first question, which is about how would you summarize, how would you summarize your institution or your members experience of COVID-19 and what really sticks out to you and stays with you at this time as one of the key takeaways from this last year. As we get more people around the table will flow and do raise a hand if you want to come in, but I'm going to come first if I may to astrid and ask her to reflect on that topic astrid. So, as I said, we conducted a survey at the end of last last year. We had to reply from more than 300 research libraries across Europe. And that means that there's extreme diversity in answers on this survey, but to to we asked actually two questions, two main questions one was about the main concerns libraries had at October last year. And the other question we asked what people expected to be the main concern in March 2021. So actually, right now. The main concerns in in October last year were actually for first of all health and safety of staff was a top concern for back then in October. Second main concern was the organization of libraries. So how to balance between physical spaces and digital infrastructures that took a prominent place in the minds of participants. Third one was dialogue dialogue was considered as especially important. This woman's wish to know how the peers were coping. What are our libraries doing to deal with the situations and what measures have been put in place. Also, for 40% of the participants were afraid for for budget cuts. So, then, asking them back then in October, what would be a high priority if looking ahead to March 2021 so actually now. First one also for topics where we're considered as as high priority so the first one was redefining services that was high on the agenda of more majority of the libraries and digitization was on everybody's mind. And then there was a focus on increased online training and on digital skills. Open was considered as the way forward. There was a lot of common there are a lot of comments about open access open science and open education. And there were discussions on the hybrid forms of future education, as well as libraries. So people consider the combination of digital and physical libraries that are the future. So I think that summarizes the main outcomes of the survey labor conducted. Thank you Astrid. I mean this is going to be a sobering little bit I think of our discussion as we reflect on those experiences and just how rapid those changes were for everybody from our teams and whether you're leading them. Trying to make things happen in your teams. You know the uncertainty in the speed was actually, you know, terrifying at times. Robin from from the UK side what's your what's your take away from this time. Thanks Jess. Well I would absolutely echo the Libre survey very much the same as in the UK. I would say that that what's emerged through the year has started off as major concern and my perception is that it's now seen as opportunity. And that's been a real shift and an acceleration of thinking. I'm not going to replicate with that Astrid's comments. I'll just give some takeaways which I think are quite important and firstly our people. The huge commitment everyone made and they had to their library service. It's astonishing how people adapted as best they could to some of the fundamental shocks that we had. And also the changes will be the same globally working from home. People just haven't really done it before and it was a massive problem fighting for bandwidth with the rest of your family. With schools being at home furniture equipment and so on and I think we've got through that but the messages to the future if we stay in this blended environment and how we need to make sure that works properly. Secondly, and really important for me and our UK members, the loss of the collective collection. The first time it was such a major issue in documents by interlibrary loan just shut down and with physical closure of libraries and coupled with travel restrictions that had a massive impact, particularly on some disciplines. And we've seen that through the year and a lot of discussion and some really good initiatives have come out of that. But I think ever since the recognition that no single library could provide everything we've relied on each other to meet the needs of our respective communities. And the loss of this has made me realize just how important and fragile that collective is and that we need to find ways to protect it in future. I would say a couple of other points. For me long covered is emerging as an issue and I don't mean the health aspects. But libraries are typically what I would describe as professional families with a strong sense of shared service and purpose, almost a mission, as well as a community amongst their staff at all levels. So the library and the parent organization are more than just an employer. Remote working, I think is breaking this down or will break this down. And it might create divisions, for example, attitudes between those who can work from home and those who can't or have blended for longer standing staff, the relationships are there and harder to break. But how do new staff become part of the community? And what what will the community be like in the future? And then a second second point in this is really is how to manage and lead at all sorts of levels throughout the organization in a blended or remote model to retain that cohesion of being more than just an employer. Thank you Robin at some really powerful and there's a comment in the chat from Laura Daniels. I'm sorry Laura, I'm not sure which institution you're from but she observes that loss immeasurable in terms of the intangible benefit from the in-person spontaneous interaction, which I think Robin and Astrid are both alluding to and that's part that occurs when we come together that does not translate to virtual interactions. I would like to give a welcome to Michelle Blake from York, great to have you on the table and also Kirsty Langstad from Edinburgh. I won't always know people are coming to the table so but in this case I do so it's great to have you here. Just before we move on to the next question, John, Jill, Michelle or Kirsty do put up with your hand if you'd like to add anything at this stage. Michelle. I was just going to talk about the importance of culture within the organization to have got through the pandemic as well and obviously we're still going through it so it's not like it's finished. But I think what I've reflected on over the last year is actually, I think the reason that we got through it in such a positive way at York is because of our culture. So that is very much around high challenge, high support and that well being piece so treating people as individuals and not just as some, you know, staff that come in and do stuff for you and actually taking the time to understand their circumstances and what was happening for them. And that obviously continues on but I think that that culture that we've set up at York and I know others will be similar as well in terms of how they've done that. But I think it also allowed us to experiment and innovate during this time as well in a way that maybe hasn't been possible before. You know, not with the same restrictions that we've had we've had to be a lot more creative. And I think the other thing that I would say at York, where I think has been really helpful has been quite pragmatic about everything. So actually we've had to make really pragmatic decisions about how we're going to operate what we're going to do. And I think that has meant that we've been able to reopen a lot. Well, we were able to open a lot quicker than a lot of places, including access to our physical collections as well. So taking being risk aware rather than risk averse. And then the other thing I want to say which you might come on to just but I think for us it's been a real opportunity to show the university the importance of the library and how at the heart of everything we are. So actually positioning ourselves into, you know, on many kind of areas into a leadership position for the university and that for me has been really exciting. Here, here, John come straight in. So I just wanted to comment for a minute about really the broad divergence and the huge diversity of styles we've seen across our libraries in our association. It's interesting to me, you know, because we're, we're just about one year from the time we were all shutting down and, and when when the libraries in the US and Canada were shutting down ARL was making an effort to track in a spreadsheet. Who had shut down, you know, what did this mean because some of our members needed support to go to their administration and say well look libraries here are doing this, we really have to do this whereas others were leaders. So I just think that, you know, looking at the differences in approaches and responses over the course of this entire year has has really been quite amazing and whether it's whether it's, you know, rural, you know, libraries that are in smaller areas like my own, compared to large libraries and enormous urban areas in the US in particular, the politics have really played into this to to to an enormous regard and then public versus private so just the differences are quite shocking and I think, personally, at least I have tried to maintain flexibility through the entire, the entire pandemic era, and I at the, at the beginning of this when I was communicating with the library staff. I saw a blog post by Deetta Jones about the four C's related to communication and the four C's were clarity, consistency care and continuity, and that was something that I tried to reiterate and I think all of my colleagues throughout ARL really tried to reiterate as leaders into what Robin said, where we really had to step up and become leaders in a brand new way in this era so that's part of the experience for me. John I'm sure there are many people in this call who recognize that and I think those those three C's are takeaways now and for this time but also for the future which we're going to move on to in a moment. I would like to recognize the comments in the chat a lot of shout outs for the kind of the emphasis on well being at this time I think we'll probably hear more of that thinking of Robin's reference to long covered the mental health legacies and so on through this as we go further the talk. I know that we could talk about the felt experience and the changes that have gone through for the whole of this session and in many ways that will be very cathartic. I would like to shift us on slightly to be thinking beyond this moment, and the second area of kind of thematic question is really, what do you expect the legacy to be, whether that's for your own institution, which will learn from, or indeed as a member of the conversation was coming through as a group. And again, if I can just, you know, remind audience members, we would love to have you at this table. There's an extra chair that's free if anyone wants to come in now. Equally, you know, participate by listening and enjoying but it really is not meant to be terrifying. See, Michelle has just spoken it's fantastic. It's informal. If you kick us off, I'm going to come to Jill if I may first and then to John. So perhaps Jill speaking then John come in naturally we'll see who else wants to join us to go through Jill. Thanks Jess so we've been really fortunate in Australia because we, we haven't really had the same severe health crisis as other parts of the world and I'm honestly in awe of, of what libraries have done globally and especially where where all of you are. But the financial impact in Australia has just been extremely acute. So our international borders have been closed for 12 months. None of our international students could come semester one last year or semester two and again semester one this year. So we are really struggling our whole sector is struggling right now. And, you know, in terms of a lasting legacy of that there's lots of implications both for our institutions and our associations and I don't want to sound negative and make this a bit of a negative list but some of the things that I think are happening now are going to have a long legacy and they're things like, you know, really significant restructuring and downsizing of all university staff in, including libraries, you know, we've got much leaner libraries than we've had before. Some services are ceasing or significantly reducing and I think some of our really high value specialist services that we deliver to, you know, a small number of clients are really at risk and and so we're really going to have to advocate hard for some of those services or indeed maybe transition to do them differently. And so that digitalization automation the centralization that we saw during COVID during that rapid innovation period I think we're really going to have to use use that same innovation to face this this next challenge. I think do one of the things we're seeing is that our members are focusing a little bit more inwards than they have before you know into their organization and I think this is a result of that that financial pressure that they're experiencing at their institutions and as national associations I think it's really important that we keep our members engaged and we might need to think about new ways to do that. The other thing I might I thought I might quickly just touch on is the physical spaces because I guess here in Australia we've sort of come out the other side of recovery and we're operating with very little restrictions where where I am now and my biggest fear when we went into lockdown initially was that no one would ever come back to the library I can remember that very emotional moment of closing the door and and thinking oh my god nobody is ever going to return and sure you know semester two last year our numbers were pretty down 40% down than than the usual numbers that we would see in our libraries but I'm really pleased to report we're about 90% back to what we had pre COVID you know. Last week we had 70,000 visits to our libraries on campus on Tuesday this week you know we had you know 15,000 visits sure it was 35 degrees so everyone likes the air conditioning but you know to see those students so enthusiastically re embracing being together and you know so much of our curriculum is still delivered online but the students are demanding that physical contact and interaction and the libraries really seen as the place for us and I can see a future where there's a lot more online teaching being delivered but people really coming onto campus and they come into the library so I really do see a bright future ahead for our physical spaces. Thanks so much Jill. That kind of climate to get back into the buildings we experienced that I'm sure that will resonate with many as well, although the idea of 70,000 visits currently sounds pretty terrifying from where we are in our progress out of the pandemic but you know fantastically you're there. So how does that compare to things where you are. Well, I, you know, we, we have reopened at my institution our numbers are still fairly low. But that that's, that's really by design I would say to continue to keep people safe so I think in our institutions we worry about how we're going to bring people back. You know, I do think that one of the successes for libraries is during the pandemic, we were able to demonstrate that we are critical research partners to our institutions. And we were also critical partners in the delivery of remote learning and, you know, libraries were ready for this, you know, we had things to do. But we were able to turn on a dime and quickly adapt to the new online learning environment and librarians liaison librarians and others were ready to go in terms of bringing value to the online curriculum, early in those pandemic days and I, I don't think that will be forgotten on on our campuses in terms of moving forward which is really very important. I think one of the big issues for for our, our libraries in in across ARL, as we think about how we come out of this experience is going to be equity and the hybrid relationship is going to be there. We're all going to have this hybrid future, but who are the individuals going to be that are coming back to campus. And is it going to be equitable across all our employees, or is it going to be the folks who are sitting at service desks or just our custodians or you name it. And how are we going to balance that and make sure that that everyone has a stake in our in person future going forward. So I would say that the same is true for ARL as an association I think there's an expectation that we're going to have some sort of hybrid future going on you know we throughout the pandemic we hosted what we called peer to peer. So these were director only conversations that that happened they you know they kind of spun up on quick topics I think things like that will continue to be valuable to us. And what will our meetings look like you know we now haven't met in person since the fall of 2019. So how are we going to craft these in person meetings going forward. How do we maintain community, and how do we bring, how do we bring new leaders into the mix. Just think of the amount of transitions that have happened already. So I think that our association in terms of bringing those new leaders in and getting them accustomed to to working in our community. And then finally, because I see some hands coming up about I'll just say that the budget challenges the budget changes I think are also a big issue. So I think these absolutely we all know about that, but from the perspective of an association a membership association, we do have concerns about the ability of our members to to continue their membership. And we, we want to make sure that we continue to deliver services and programs that are of the top value, so that memberships will be maintained. Thank you so much, John. I'm going to come to Kirsty next week because she's put her hand up kind of virtually in the chest and I'm going to come to Kirsty then I'll come to you before I just been Kirsty in Liz Waller and Wendy White both making great comments about innovation. If anyone want to come in to make this comments in person then please please do, Kirsty. I think what's been really interesting and what a number of speakers have touched on is just the change of the role of the library within the university and that recognition how essential the services and what we do is to the university. I think from our perspective what was really interesting was that the library became one of the research laboratories and was designated as such with an Edinburgh in order to allow as a special collections and the Center for Research Collections to open up early to provide humanities that equitable access which was happening across and the sort of sciences and medicine and veterinary studies so I think that's been a really chain big change for us and how we're seen and seen within that wider kind of community. I think that's also interestingly brought some some interesting pressures for us which our staff have sort of struggled and grappled with at times it's that trying to provide really essential services that the community is looking for, as well as that being peace for our sort of staff and getting that balance right and hasn't always been easy and they've sort of pushed pulled and tugged against each other. And again, we've really noticed as others have mentioned that change in attitude to staff how they've been able to respond. I think, you know, we've spun up several new services when in the past we might have brought one new service along every couple of years so that change in mindset has really demonstrated itself and I think that's one of the things we're going to need to be resilient and be able to continue for the future. Thank you so much Kirsty there's such a lot in there and I'm going to bring in Vivian and then Liz and I would be surprised if that kind of question of momentum around innovation doesn't come up as we go through Vivian. I just want to just cheer Kirsty on because I agree completely and I was thinking the other day in some some ways I think we are the victims of our own success. I had a Dean say to me the other day librarians appear to have superpowers that I didn't know of until the pandemic began. In Canada, I will say, you know, we are sort of many of us are still very, very much in a lockdown position. There are no there are no students in my library and that's the case in many parts of Canada. We are, we are not there. We are thinking about how we might be able to reopen in September. I just wanted to reflect quickly on the collection piece because it's an area where I see that we have invested a huge amount of our budget in streaming video and electronic books to try and get more content in the hands of our researchers wherever they are in the world because they've all dispersed and people love it. And I'm starting to receive these requests well after the pandemic is over can we keep all of those things. You know, in many, many places in Canada we negotiated agreements with the Haudy Trust to provide electronic access to huge portions of our print collection while we remain closed. And I'm receiving messages now from Dean saying, can we keep that after the pandemic is over and so we're going to reach this budgetary issue where people love some of the new things that we've introduced to support them through the pandemic. They're still grieving the loss of some other things, but they want to keep everything that that we've bought for them. I also wanted just to reflect very quickly on what I what I think of as the institutional value proposition that we have changed dramatically. I believe that I hear this from my colleagues across Canada that we have found new credibility and a new sense of influence at the Dean's table that we frankly did not have before this began. We sometimes said that we have the kittens and puppies branding issue that everyone loves the library in the same way that they love kittens and puppies and slippers by the fire. But that's not a great image when you're trying to work through a pandemic but I think what we've displayed is this this incredible set of superpowers. It's our ability to be quite tech savvy in a way that no one imagined the ability to spin up what people believe are very very complex new programs which we chuckle at because we can spin them up in a day. And a bit of fearlessness that no one realized that we had including in some cases ourselves. And also this other secret sauce which is the fact that libraries tend to be fully committed to the university's overall research mission, we're not just in it to afford the library we're really in it for our students and for the campus as a whole. And so I reflect in a closing off here around our RL UK's whole messaging around the need to be trusted within our own organizations to work outside of our traditional professional boundaries. And I think that is going to be the lasting legacy of the pandemic. Vivian that was tremendous. And I'm now musing on superpowers and secret sauce and all other metaphors that kind of work in our favor in terms of advocacy. Thank you so much. I'm going to suggest actually Robin if I don't mind if I come to Liz who made some great comments about innovation in and it'd be great Liz to sort of pick up that if you're willing to and then I'll come to Robin. Sure. Thanks. Thanks Jess. I just wanted to very quickly mention kittens and puppies actually because I think that's a brilliant phrase for libraries. And just reflect on the comment that we had from an academic because we we were fairly early on in regaining on campus activity and opening the library, at least to our research community. And she commented that knowing the library was going to physically open gave gave her hope that actually would return to normality. And I think in a way we've kind of I hope we've moved slightly away from that kitten and puppy to being something that is absolutely recognized as being caught in academic activity on campus. And I think also for the first time our VC has been happy to say the library has never closed because of our virtual library presence, which has been in a way a great game. The comment I made in chat was particularly around the the importance of the physical experience and study space, particularly I think for our students and how important that has been to them. And we've managed keeps a space going since August without falling over. But I think that that desire to be physically together in a library space will continue. It's a space that has absolute clarity of purpose for our students. That's where they want to go to study on campus to be together to be a part to be within a distance of each other but still operating independently. But I think what it's going to give us now is because of I think the shift in pedagogy that's really going to pick up pace now. It gives us the opportunity to look at our space and say, Well, where are we going next. It's not just about what we're doing now. It's about where we're moving to next and driving our spaces and driving the pedagogy around that. So I don't think we should be passive recipients and wait to see where pedagogy is going to take the university etc. I think as librarians as experts in learning and research experts in space usage knowing our users. There's a real chance to help drive the pedagogy as well. So I'm really interested in how we do that over the next few months. And I think we can't start too soon. We have to make the most of this disruption. Thank you so much, Liz. There is some fantastic comments that are coming up through chat. I'm going to come to Robin next, but also just to let people know that after we've had our final question, we are going to move to those audience suggestions. So if we're not picking up on points you made in chat now, we're going to come back to some of those in that kind of final, apparently final dinner course. So we'll come back to that then, Robin. I think I'll build slightly on Liz's comments, but also referring back to what Kirsty's presentation this morning. She was talking about risk. I've got a question for all of us, I think. Given what we're talking about innovation about spinning up services quickly about changing, about being radical. Has our approach to risk changed as a result of this year? Has yours, Robin? Yeah. I think we just need to try and go for things. I mean, I, if I just take chair's privilege for a moment, I mean, that the examples of innovation have been extraordinary. And I think to Vivian's point about previous perceptions, perhaps that wasn't necessarily how we were perceived, not because we weren't innovating. But perhaps we didn't always tell our story. It wasn't as visible. But this extraordinary ability, you know, at some cost, because it's been exhausting to kind of reinvent, you know, the huge question for me is, how do we keep taking that forward? I think I've got two participants hands up, which I think must be Michelle's next. So forgive me, Michelle, to you. Thanks, Jess. I was just going to build on that around the risk question that Robin posed. And I think what the approach that we've taken is about being risk aware, but not being risk averse. So actually understanding what the risks are, but then actually being really, really quite pragmatic about what we can do and just getting on with it. And if it fails, making sure we've set the culture that staff know it's okay if it doesn't work and that we haven't put massive investment into it. So actually it's not going to cost us much. So I thought I'd just give a couple of examples of very little things that we've done because I think sometimes it's helpful. One of the other things that we did was we created we knew a lot of students couldn't return to the library physically either because of where they were based at the moment or because of health, etc. So we we set up a library home from home. So what one of my members of staff did he filmed himself in the library over a two hour period just working away sounds of the library behind him. And he posted that as something that students could download, and they could have that alongside them while they were working at home. And we just thought, oh, this is it, you know, it's a bit of a gimmick. We'll see what happens. Students loved it and went absolutely crazy. Like the feedback was just amazing. You know, really, really minor but but actually little things like that I think get people really excited. And that was what maybe a few hours of someone's time to record themselves. I mean, he was working as well when he did it. So that was a really nice one. And then, and then I think alongside that experimentation piece. You know, what I was going to actually come back to was something that John raised around space and people coming back into the library so our staff and would it be equitable and things. And I think we need to think carefully about what we mean by that. I think the pandemic in general all the research shows that the people that it's hardest a woman and particularly working mothers, and I feel quite strongly about this as a working mom. Obviously, and I think those people that are making decisions about how we're going to go back on to our campuses, which aren't always ourselves in libraries it's you know the university. And more generally, I think we need to be really careful about who who's in the room making those decisions and making sure where we can influence that we do influence. So there was a really good article on Dropbox. I'll post it in the chat when I find out after about virtual first. And I think it's really thinking about why do you need people back in to start with what activities will they do while they're on site. And what can be done at home and Dropbox their approach was actually lots of stuff can be still done asynchronously doesn't need you to be on site but but those activities that do. And maybe that's in the afternoon till maybe that's on set days, but really just taking a very different approach and forgetting moving away from this idea of prison tears and and things like that. So I think that would be a really powerful thing for all of us to think about with our own staffing as well. There's loads of nods and some brilliant comments in chat. I've got Diane Job who's just come into the meeting and then I think my suit has also put his hand up so Diane do you want to just introduce yourself and you were raising some comments in chat about leadership and and I think that question about where fall with leadership, what does it change what you know what are the qualities the flaws with you Diane. Thank you. I'm Diane Job I'm director of library services at the University of Birmingham. And my thought started after when I was listening to john speak and talking about emerging leaders and and and also the kind of connection to the well being piece. And I started this through and thought yesterday as well about is but what is not just the nature of leadership that the nature of follow it mission followership. And I think at a societal level we've also we've been asking ourselves the question of questions, who are we prepared to follow on what basis. And I think that the way you know very early on in the pandemic, but I think probably wish we'd lived in New Zealand at one point. But the actions and behaviors of our leaders and the kinds of things that we value about those things I think we, we've had time to reflect on in a way perhaps we haven't before. And also personally, for me as as the leader of my service. I've been thinking about how I exhibited the kind of leadership qualities that those people would sort of expected of me and would have hoped for me and I think it does change. The nature of that relationship with the team, particularly as we go back into more kind of hybrid way of working. And it fundamentally comes down to what what are the things that we value. And are we are we displaying that. And so I think there are some big questions in us because we are not going to back back to what we had before. It's new for us all. It's fantastic Diana and that kind of sense of however we frame the future, beyond the pandemic, you know, the new normal. We are changed. And, you know, the, the, the adaptation from that we are still working through but there isn't a return. We are changed. I'm going to ask if anyone else would like to come in on that question of leadership. I think it's a really rich one. If anyone has got any hands they want to put up or make comments at this point. Okay, not at the moment. So let me see if there is. We talked a little bit about that kind of question of equity. And also of hybrid. And it seems to me there's a quite a big challenge for those of us leaving libraries at the moment, you know, what are we going to stop doing in order to do the new things that have come in. And also, you know, ensure that we build those inclusively. If anyone's got a magic bullet for this, I'd love to hear it, but it seems to be a kind of central question. We can't keep doing it all. Masood. Thank you, Jess. And an absolute pleasure seeing you all again as well. Thank you. Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts on instead of all thinking about what can we stop doing. I think we also need to add what can we do differently. And that's one big learning for me through through the whole pandemic as well and goes back to I think the point Robin you are raising about. Risk. And there's a way, I think part of me thinks that we need to change our mindset on this and actually move away from what do we need to stop doing or where is the biggest risk to where is the biggest value. And how do we collaborate in different ways to achieve that. I think there is a something to say about the mindset that's come through this this pandemic and I think Michelle was referring to this as well when she was saying, let's look at pragmatic solutions rather than you are under a lot of pressure and we just have to do something about it. And one thing that I'm particularly interested in is, we are a global world whose come close, even further because of this we are all here digitally in a way that we might not have been able to in the past. What are some of the unique opportunities we can do that what are some of the collaborations we can do that what are some of those quick and dirty outcomes which leads and moves us forward in some ways that we can do that and we don't have to do it in the UK anymore. We don't have to do it in the Europe anymore we don't have to do it in Australia anymore, we can actually pick our partners and say this hybrid working pattern allows us to do that. So let's see what we can do differently. Let's build on that power of collaboration, and therefore look at where the highest level of value is delivered to ourselves to the sector and to the institutions that we are part of. That's just some food for thought. That's wonderful Masoud. Thank you and actually a perfect cue into our third thematic heritage about engagement. And we can really take this in any way that we want to because I think we've got some strands here when we talk about engagement with the communities we serve, engagement with our staff as group and also engagement with each other as member organizations. So I'm going to kind of pose a question really. Building on the experience this time building on both its its challenging legacies and also the opportunities that are ahead. How can we how might we work together as a community to build on the shared experience and think about collective benefit that comes out of this, between institutions or between associations. And I just happen to know that Vivian has agreed to just kind of give us a head start on this one. So can I come to you first and then we'll bring others in. I'm sure can I can I start by thanking Masoud for just setting the conversation up so beautifully. Because I think there is an opportunity to focus on collaborations and identifying new value. And it's it's not an easy it isn't an easy task nothing in this pandemic has really been easy and you know I when I reflected on it at first you can imagine a few very practical and simple and logical things that that we could do. And they would certainly help advance us. You know things for example, you know, our health experts have indicated that we're fooling ourselves if we think that there won't be some other kind of health emergency coming you know we're going to get past this, but but but this is, but this is a reality and and honestly we need to be better prepared for the next one. And so I think of some of our health sciences libraries that that were really ahead of the pack on this because in some cases, they already had emergency preparedness plans in place and they were able to pull those plans out and to use them when the we're imagining where we could best start. So I would love to see us sharing some of our protocols and some of our metrics across our geographic areas. I think that's very practical and quite easy to do. And I think we can also document our experiences and best practices in the collective. And what has worked and what hasn't we've heard some of these stories already today, and what evidence actually proved valuable when we were making our decisions and which evidence proved to not actually be helpful. You know there's, and there's an extraordinary corpus of information and data that could be used for some international research studies on our response. I'm thinking bigger about this. I would really love to see us work together to really reimagine our professional narrative. I've been captivated, as I'm sure many of you have been by RL UK's notion of the digital shift. It's a notion that I will say came to me at the exact right time. And I believe that the pandemic actually forced us to accelerate the pace of the shift. And it moved us in directions that we were already going we were heading in these directions anyway, but it forced us to actually accelerate the pace and move faster than any of us ever dreamed possible. We also love us to look at competencies, you know, from an international perspective. And so what are the skill sets that are required to be successful in a 21st century research library regardless of what part of the world you are in. And I, you know I think about which of these skills are actually transferable. And in part because of work that Carl is doing here in Canada around competencies. I know that call has been active in the competency work as well and so could we bring this work together and examine what it tells us about the future of work. And finally, I would love us to continue doing what we're doing today. And that is really convening international groups to discuss the issues of common concern. And as I think Massit said a few minutes ago the internet has made this a much smaller world. And I actually believe that I, Arla is an excellent convening body, and each one of our organizations can be an excellent convening body to bring together all of this great work so I'm going to stop right now, and just open it up to the rest of my table companions. Thank you so much Vivian, John's got his hand I'm going to come to him but can I just give a big welcome to Josh sent off the University of Lancaster was during the table, and Josh please to just raise your hand if you want to come into the conversation be great. John. I'm just saying here here to Vivian on these international collaborations. I, this is just, you know, really wonderful to have the opportunity to, to talk and explore our collective experiences around the pandemic, and to think about new ways of working together and just really enlightening and encouraging, I think, for the future, I would say. So I'm going to, I want to just say a couple of things about the collective collection, which is a word that Robin used early on around the table and so first, I wonder if how the pandemic is going to affect our open futures, and you know I think it's maybe no surprise that that this week all of a sudden the University of California system announced that they have a deal with Elsevier for a transform international agreement. And you know how are we going to see things like that shift to to other places around the world as a result of the pandemic, and this call for, for research to be open. When we were in this library here at Iowa, we never, we never stopped in our library loan during the pandemic. And at one point in the depths of this last spring, I think we were one of four academic medical libraries in the United States that was still delivering samples. And you know the research on on Coronavirus really went back to SARS and relied on a lot of old information. So our librarians were pulling from print journals and scanning so I think there's just so much to do here, which which takes me to another collaboration that that I can't help but but mention for a subset of ARL libraries, which is are the libraries of the big 10 academic alliance, and the libraries of the big 10 are working on a concept called the big collection. I don't paste a link here in the chat, but we have committed across the 15 members of the big 10 academic alliance to start building something called the big collection, or a shared collect collective collection. Researchers at the University of Iowa no longer just think they have access to Iowa's collection but the entire collection of the big 10, where where we have 22% of the print resources in the United States are in our 15 libraries. And how can we take that print world and transition that to the electronic world. So it's this change of mindset and it's, it's a new center of gravity for how we negotiate licenses, how we work together and like Vivian said about the digital shift. This came at the exact right time, and we have been talking about this move to the big collection. And I think the pandemic and our experiences are going to be the juice that we need to make it happen. There were amazing provocations coming through this I'm loving you know the sense that whatever comes next or indeed now we're more digital than before that we are being bolder about being more open than before. And, you know, the ability to think above our physical spaces in a bolder way than we've ever done before all themes that research levels UK and research levels across the world have thought about. I'm going to bring in our colleague Josh chendall here and Josh if you want to introduce yourself and pick up on one of the things that be great. I'm Josh and all researchers scholarly communications manager at Lancaster University. And I've really enjoyed listening to this conversation and also those reflections and what struck me during this discussion is something thematic. And that is the extents of which in the pre COVID world, we discuss the way in which we exist and operate in a VUCA environment and it's, you know, volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity and if that were true then then we've certainly been living within, you know, a hyper VUCA environment. I'm always taken by the idea that when you're faced with a VUCA environment, the volatility the uncertainty the complexity, the ambiguity yields to vision and unity and clarity and agility. And I think we've seen that in droves within our academic libraries and within our communities and at Lancaster as part of the library management team we've certainly done our level headed best to provide unity and to provide clarity, absolutely. And that aligns I think, you know with what Liz had to say around providing clarity for our institutions. You know that dependable sense of something about the old way of life that we knew and loved our libraries at the heart of our institutions. They're still here for us. They're still providing services for us. We're still accessing resources and collections, but I was really taken. I think perhaps it was Vivian who touched on librarians having superpowers. And I think one of the other themes of the pandemic has been the extent to which we have recognized significant social, economic and health inequalities. And I have another provocation almost following on from John and that is what role can we as research libraries play to address some of those inequalities and I'm thinking here around the profession as a whole and our strong values, especially thinking here about social justice, but also the role that open research can play. So a provocation there for anybody to pick up on and respond to. I think that's a great provocation John and we've definitely got time to explore a little it's come up through each section that kind of question of equity social justice that you know that you're framing. And I'm so pleased that John and yourself also kind of picked up the place of open in this, you know, as one tool in our, in our continued framings but perhaps accelerated framings. That question of social justice and inequity. Would anyone like to come in on that because this is where a different national positions may give us some different perspectives which could be really valuable. Yeah, so what we've noticed in in among our members across Europe is that besides the digit, the digital shift. There's also a digital divide. So there, there are lots of countries, Southern, Southern and Eastern Europe, where there, there is a lack of simple laptops infrastructure and students don't have access to all that digital material that that libraries are making available so that was a point of interest, not that I have a solution, but it was a very clear outcome of the survey we did. Astrid that's really helpful. There's a great question that kind of picks up on some of these issues but turns it to a different lens in the chat. And that relates to issues of equity diversity inclusion, less about services, but more about recruitment and who we are and who we want to be. And I think I'm just going to ask the question openly looks like Dan's going to put our hands up which is great. How has the pandemic influence your recruitment and the roles you're recruiting to the approach, focus and diversity and equity. I'm going to come to Diane and then to Robin. I think that's a really, really good question. And I think as all of us sit here and kind of think about what does the return look like in the next couple of months. Those are those are the exact questions that we're kind of asking ourselves, are we going to, are we going to challenge ourselves to be thinking about the kinds of people that that we want to recruit on what they can do. And I think their expectations will be changed their expectations about the flexibility that we can offer the development opportunities that we can, that we can give. And it's I think it will be a real challenge but it but it just feels like a huge opportunity to be really, really forward thinking about this. You know, just something as simple as we operate to 24 seven building, but we recruit people to a nine to five. It's nonsensical. I've shown that actually, if we if we've got really good policy around what people are doing really good procedures really good management structures really good skill sets in our in our managers across our teams. Actually we can be really, really flexible and I think that will then lead ultimately to that kind of that diversity and thinking in what our workforce looks like. That then you get the kind of that we took a lot in Birmingham and about the buzz but the buzz comes when people feel that they can, they can shine in that kind of environment so I think there's a huge opportunity. And there's been on the chat in in various ones about our kind of lists about what are those policies that are on the verge of being issued. Looking at what are they saying and we have a big role to play in shaping those right now, because we have been the ones who've lived this from the start we were the ones first back. Aside from security services in terms of service that was that was asked across collectively. So I think there's an awful lot there that we can lead on that we can influence in the way the organization behaves differently. Thank you so much, Diane and you know comment from Kirsty in chat about the courage we need to do this. And I think that is also where these networks come in in stimulating the conversation giving us strength and ideas. So I love an open question that's led to four hands is fantastic from our from our table. The order I wrote them down in which they came up with Robin, Massoud, Vivian and Jill if I've got that wrong I apologize but I come to Robin first and then Massoud and go from there. You're always right to come to me first Jess, that's no problem. Paying tribute to my elders Robin. So I'm struck by some of the comments I'm just thinking to the services we all already provide like follow the sun. We were thinking above above even national boundaries in terms of providing a service for a single institution. And I wonder how much more of that we can do so we're one of the issues around inclusion and diversity has for me has always been the fight. If you bring people together. You actually cause problems by the virtue of differences. If people are actually working remotely, and they don't have to travel. Either physically or in terms of cost. Then you, you're going to be more inclusive and the risk possibly of of creating issues by bringing people together might be overcome. If you're willing to take the risk and part of the problem we have I think is we are so bound by physical space. It is so important to us know that physical building the library is so important. Yes, the digital is there as well. But we can't at this point and we won't for a long time, or would we want to get away from the physical space. But it seems to me that we might have two different types of workforce. And certainly I've already talked to colleagues in it services are thinking exactly this their issues around diversity inclusion are much worse than ours. And they're seeing the ability to recruit someone from say London or whatever to doesn't have to come to the middle and doesn't have to upstakes doesn't have costs, etc. We so much better so I'm thinking, perhaps as I say we have two different types of organization, depending on role, etc. Yeah, I just did that and I'm sorry. Do you know I'm going to forget that it's come to my suit straight away my suit. Thank you, Jess. One of the most loved phrases of this year has been or in fact the whole pandemic has been your own mute. And I just wanted to pick up on something and I think this is this goes beyond libraries and goes to any organization, any entity, particularly which is in order for it to survive it needs to innovate and innovation depends on particularly innovation of the future depends on diversity. It's not even a question of it will benefit from I think it depends on diversity now. And that diversity means having some difficult discussions to begin with. It means having very difficult conversations and I often quote, call me a Christian on this with who basically said the best things in life are on the other side of a difficult conversation. And that basically means having difficult conversations on what does it mean for us as a as an organization in terms of our workforce balance, both at gender level at ethnicity level at thinking level. But it also means how do we work collaboratively to balance some of those things and also think about innovation at the same time. And it's not going to be easy. And I would go as far as saying and I know this is a difficult thing for a lot of us to hear including myself that why we absolutely believe in the principles. We don't fully live and breathe them yet. We haven't really pushed them in our libraries in the way that we could. We haven't really made them our core part of values in the way that everyone believes in them and everyone lives them. And I think for us, the principles are there. The implementation hasn't been as successful and it's that implementation that will require those difficult conversations that will require a level of acceptance and a level of vulnerability through us as leaders to have those things and move forward. The last thing I would say is that I'm absolutely in awe of what the American libraries are doing, especially in terms of the recruitment practices and particularly particular positions dedicated to this work as well. And I think we can all take some inspiration from that as well. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've seen you on your treats before talking about the good stuff happening beyond the difficult conversations and I'm really, really taken with that. I think it's absolutely essential. I think there's something about these tremendously difficult times which we've had to have the courage to have difficult conversations we need to keep having them and see what that leads us. Now I've completely forgotten the order so can I count me? I think it's me and I will be very, very quick and we've had lots of conversation about recruitment and and how in some ways it's liberating to be able to recruit without these geographic boundaries and and and we're really happy to to to move into these high flex kind of organizations, you know we're mentally preparing ourselves in a recent conversation of the Carl directors we're having a conversation about the other side of the coin which is the retention, and the fact that it, although it's easy to hire people, how do you create a sense of engagement and cultural inclusion so that they feel that they're truly part of that organization when they're being onboarded online and and and so we're really struggling with that there has to we have to find ways of doing not only the recruitment, but how to really bring people in and make them feel part of our organizations and that it's not actually going to be easier when we move to more flexible work arrangements so I just I just wanted to put that on people's radar. It's such an important point and I think we'll all have experience of people coming on board during this time and sometimes even moving city during such a difficult time and then how do you meet people has you come part of a community so hard Jill. Thanks Jess I think I think the comment I was going to make was probably passed us by but you know I think this recruitment strategy relates very well to our associations as well you know our associations traditionally had a physical office in our capital city which isn't the best place to recruit the best minds for our association because of COVID we're in our fully virtual office. Our staff are located across the country and you know we've got the best and the brightest working within our association that caller a terrific national office so I'm really pleased. But I did just want to pick up on what Massoud was talking about because the Australian Library and Information Association have just announced a really bold program to really change the way in which we recruit into the profession with some new pathways for for people to come in you know we're really struggling with some of our library schools and the numbers of students both enrolling and the number of degrees that we have and they're really looking for new types of people and you know with different types of backgrounds to really join our library community so I think that that's going to be quite exciting work it's only just kicked off but you know through traineeships and internships, you know really drawing people into the profession and offering them that professional pathway that might not be going to university and having university degree so I think it's quite an exciting piece of work. Thank you so much Jill and Kirsty. Yes, I'm just going to pick up on that diversity issue because actually when we're talking around about physical we've always been really clear around about accessibility and where the challenges were. But actually we've got these same challenges and the digital environment as well they're just sometimes hidden or different. And again that's going to bring a need a real mind change and again we really need diverse teams not just in skills and backgrounds, ethnicity and approach to really tackle that because digital is just as challenging as the physical. And we need to think around about how can we make that equitable. We're already aware of kind of digital poverty but there are far more other challenges well that we need to tackle and try and kind of bring into and work through collectively to see how we can take that forward so they're actually our physical or you know the library needs to be both a physical space but it needs to also be a digital space and I'd like one time to be at that point where when people say the word library they have some sort of hybrid of the two springs to mind immediately and that's what our users are engaging with because then we'll know that we're really beginning to reach where we need to be for the new industrial revolutions that are coming. Leslie thank you so much for coming in and actually pivoting us back round to an area which Liz having come into the table has also introduced and Liz you posed a question which is about the interface between physical and digital. That might you might have moved on and wait what you want to bring in so go where you like but you know what do you want to add at this point. Thanks Jess, I think I wanted to pose a question back to the panel as we can go into the last few minutes really which is how do we get to a situation where we do have that absolute blend of physical and digital. So what do we do next because we've lived in very much a virtual world for the past 12 months, we are going to move back onto campuses now in much more strength. And certainly, I feel from, from a Durham perspective my staff are really tired of the digital, and there is that get back to campus get back to normal again. So trying to hang on to what must be a good blend of physical and digital moving forward. Does the panelists have any ideas about how we achieve that. John. So I think I would start by saying that, at least at my institution and again this is going to be more of a local comment than a broad comment. We are expecting some guidance from the university that will lead us through a process to really look at every position as folks come back and look at the roles and responsibilities for each position, and think about how can that work be accomplished best on campus or could it be accomplished remotely. So I think we will just, you know, make a very careful analysis. And we've already, we've got probably, I would say 10 to 15% of our employees are already back on site, full time, and then another 30% of our folks are in a hybrid situation already where we're coming in on different shifts. So, as we bring everyone else back over the course of the next couple of months. I think we'll take advantage of advice from the university, and just look closely at those roles and think then about how do we interface with activities on campus, you know who's ready to continue with virtual versus in person instruction, how best can we impact the research enterprise and so forth. So it'll be, it'll be a one by one process for us at least to start. Thank you so much john and john and josh has put his hand up behind the scenes and I'm going to come to Kirsty so Josh. I'm actually building on what john said as far as possible. If as organizations we can take a person focused approach and have those conversations with our staff about what their preferences and to the extent that it's possible and we're able to deliver our service delivery to accommodate requests to work in a hybrid way, or back on campus, or remotely, and then just a bit of blue sky thinking here, and perhaps I'm thinking more about how we deliver our services for students and what a hybrid physical digital environment might look like in the future. I think it's, it's almost, it seems a shame to me that conversations about virtual reality and augmented reality have kind of dropped off the radar a little bit. In the HE space, and I think if we really want to keep the best of digital and physical and enable as far as it is possible, a seamless experience, even for example for delegates at a conference, then are there opportunities to start having those blue sky conversations about AR and VR again, I really hope so. Thank you Josh and there's been some great talks on some of those topics at this conference as well which I think is stimulated a lot of thinking. Kirsty there may be aspects that you want to pick up as you come back in. Absolutely, because I think for me, we need to look at what's amazing about what we offer physically and then what's amazing about what we can offer digitally. And then look at the best of both and I think as Josh was saying there's really interesting things around about the hybrid piece and how we can bring physical and digital together and make that work as something that is together. And I think for me then we really need to look at that augmented reality or virtual reality piece. And I think it has been moving along what's been fascinating is that virtual reality has really moved along a pace but actually for a lot of our users. It's going to be when augmented reality sort of takes another shift that that is the space that a lot of people will be more comfortable in it will be a lot easier to use because you're not out with the physical space you're inhabiting in your body. And I think that has some really exciting opportunities. And I think we as libraries need to explore what some of our services start looking like that we've really taken that forward massively as we've looked at virtual consultations how we've used chat and how we flipped a lot of services that we've only felt we could do really well in person but we've been delivering them and really hybrid and mixed ways and I think we need to hope that our stuff aren't so tired and exhausted I think Liz made a really good point there. We need to sort of infuse them about some of these new opportunities and get them to try and test them out and be experimental and have some fun with them. And again, you know make sure that if we do that then actually we'll have a sort of team of staff who are willing to experiment and try and innovate because they'll suddenly get that bug for well we tried that that didn't work but we refinded this worked. Here we go this is amazing and it's that little and often it's like a muscle it's like public speaking if you keep doing it you'll get better at it and that innovation and risk taking it's something we need to infuse our staff with and hope that that's maybe one of the mechanisms we overcome pandemic fatigue. Thank you. We are getting towards the last straight I'm going to bring Robin in for the final comment in that strand and then I'm going to bring us together and where do we go next as I a la to pick up on some of these strands. Just a very quick comment on the virtual augmented reality and so we just need to get meetings sorted. Trying to have people in the room and people remotely having a meeting is a nightmare if we can get that sorted that will go a long way. I agree Robin in terms of inclusivity that is one experience would really like to get right. We are within a whisker of the time ending for this slot and I feel like we've kind of packed a whole conference into nearly an hour and a half with with huge thanks to the participants I'm hoping this chat will be saved because I think there's some good angles there for multiple blogs and follow ups as well. I'm not going to put anyone on the spot here but I would particularly like to ask my colleagues from I a la group. If there are particular strands that come out of this that you would like to see us talking about as an international group together, because it's been a lively conversation. Jill. I just thought Vivian's suggestion of you know rewriting the narrative and you know we I think we're all going to have that that same challenge you know what our libraries post COVID and you know what is our role going to be I think I think we could really benefit from having that conversation with an I a la and doing some advocacy together around that I think that's a really useful idea. I would like that to and I think this has been tremendously stimulating with fantastic contributions. I'm seeing some nods to that and we just see if Vivian astrid or john or indeed Robin want to add and think as a closing John. Yeah, I'll agree with that and I think I think we have an opportunity here to continue the conversation in a way that maybe we haven't thought of before I mean. I mean, this has, this has worked, you know, really well, I think and it would be, it would be exciting to see what, what the conversation would be like if we had broader audience participation from, you know, from the other parts of the world as well, because it's been so rich today. I can't imagine if we had sort of doubled the audience and there were other perspectives coming in. You know, then I think, as Robin suggested we've got the issue of in person versus virtual, and then there's the whole business of time zones, and how do we, how do we come up with a reasonable time to have these conversations and you know maybe we need to do a couple at the same time today. But I think there's a lot of opportunity ahead for very fruitful conversations that will lead to maybe very small collaborations, but those small collaborations will feed into the big ones. I'm really taken with that maybe it's not so much a long table it's a long festival with little events. You know, popping up timing a time allowing because I agree, the opportunity to hear from people in different parts of the world again will will, you know, will challenge the thinking of each of us in our different settings. We are pretty much there. Again, Vivian asked you if there's anything you want to add at this point you're welcome to do but Vivian, can you say that I think it's a great moment for cultural humility, and the fact that we can learn so much from each other. And, and, and I just, I will stop with that. Thank you so much Astrid. I just want to say thank you for for being here and for all the participants for their discussions. Let's do this weekly or monthly. Thank you for in the morning. I am going to give the last word to Robin. Actually, he's been a tremendous chair this year and he's a commitment to why I always been fantastic so I'd like to say thank you in front of this community for his contribution to that. And Robin, if there's any last words you'd like to make to this group in terms of taking forward this conversation. Well, thanks Jess. That was a bit of a surprise, but I think for me that I already has been and is and will continue to be a hugely important initiative. And it's, I think Vivian's, I'd suggestion is something I'll have to take forward. We've seen over the last year with which we're trying to recover to treat and other activities that that what we can do with Iowa in our through our different conversations is growing all the time. And we have a real opportunity here to do to take a global perspective is on the problems and issues facing us and the opportunities. So I would thoroughly encourage I'll let you know to do what we talked about is hang the risk, go for it. Thank you so much Robin. So we're going to close this session now it's been great. It's our first experiment of a long table, virtually I think it's worked. I'd really like to say thank you to those colleagues who came in to join the table is not an easy thing to do but you've really made a conversation so thank you so much for doing so. We are back at 1500 three o'clock for the lightning talks which are always a fantastic lively and kind of fast paced way to finish a conference so I'm really hoping as many of you do come back for that as possible. But it's time to put the kettle on as we always do in the UK whatever is equivalent is where you where you are. Enjoy a quick break come back and refresh so my thanks to everyone goodbye.