 Okay, we're back. We're live to give in Monday afternoon. It's the 15th, it's president's day. That's a very special day now. It wasn't so special before it, but it's very special now after all that has happened in the United States. So we are joined by two guests who are both in Nampen. And we're gonna talk today about lessons from the Khmer Rouge Tribunal, very important. And Sam on SOK is with us and Monica Sok, his daughter is with us. And Monica is a member of Project Expedite Justice and Sam is, I guess, of the generation that is extremely familiar with what happened in the killing fields in Cambodia from 1970 to 1979, very important discussion. So we wanna catch up with what Project Expedite Justice has done and is doing and what Sam can tell us about the tribunal there, the place where quite a while in Nampen and Cambodia. So Monica, you first. Can you tell us what Project Expedite Justice is doing, has done with regard to Cambodia and the tribunals and what you are doing for Project Expedite Justice? Okay, so thank you for having me in the show and I would like to greeting the audience as well. And talking about the PEJ, we are not working with related to tribunal, but we, personally I used to work in at the Khmer Rouge Court for almost six years. So I learned from that and I applied to the, I use my own experience and working for PEJ to make sure that the world can use and bring the important things on the documentation and accountability for the crime in transitional justice in process and how we find the truth, how we do the documentation and how we have to the victim through my own experience working at the Khmer Rouge Court. Yeah, so. So what is your immediate interest in the tribunal? Cause it's over, isn't the tribunal over or is it still going on? For the tribunal, it's still going on. Briefly talking about the cases in the tribunal, it's having four cases. It has cases number 01, cases 02, cases 03 and 04. And now cases 01 already finished it, but for the case 02 slash 02 is still ongoing and it will be at the Supreme Court maybe this year and also the other two cases, cases 03, 03 and 04 is still ongoing and is now at the pre-trial stage, yeah. Okay, well my understanding is that project, expedite justice can go anywhere with the idea of investigating and prosecuting or assisting in the prosecution of war crimes and violations of human rights. What is your role in that? Are you a lawyer? Are you an investigator? How are you involved personally? For me, in a work with PEJ project expedite justice, I'm working as the country lead in Cambodia and also in South Sudan. In Cambodia, in South Sudan, I work with the partner, I train and assist them, helping them with investigation and also how to documentations on those evidence and also from those, investigations from our partner. And for in Cambodia, we are not really working based on the international crime, atrophy crime, no, but we work on the, promote on the, doing the same thing, like we train, we assist on investigation but on exactly cases like for example, child abuse, labor exploitation, human trafficking, yeah, something like that. We work close with our NGO partner and also we are not only focused in Cambodia but also we would like to bring all those cases to other countries, like for example, like we are now having cases that we work with the lawyer in French and also UK, Australia, US and Thailand work with the lawyer that could claim for compensation to the WIC team who have been abused from the actions or offender. How do you select the cases, Monica? I mean, what cases do you wanna handle and what cases do you actually handle? Who does the vetting and what are the parameters of your choice? We currently, we only work based on the child abuse and also money laundering if there is and also human trafficking, labor exploitation and how we choose the case. We work with our partner, with NGOs, like we have about 12 partners in Cambodia that mostly when they need our assistance, we always give in hand and we always give the idea, we always give our strategy on litigation cases, both in Cambodia and also the cross-border cases. So do you investigate and try or do you just investigate or do you just try? Are you a trial lawyer? I also, for PHJ, we do also before the trial, pre-trial, we do like investigation and also do the legal research if the case possible to go to the court. And yeah, this year, I'm a new lawyer, I just admit at the bar. So we plan to handle the case and we work with our partner, Amaran Law Firm, which is with my dad, so we can work on the cases and have those vulnerable victims on, yeah. So there's no reason why a new lawyer can't change the world, I'd like to offer that thought. You don't have to be an old lawyer to change the world. New lawyers are actually more adept at changing the world. Why do you do this, Monica? Why do you do this? Because I want to prove that young lawyer also can change the world. Okay, it's not for the money then, huh? I think it's about a passion because maybe I had a dad and let's say he influenced me maybe, but I really love to work on this thing. I volunteer working on human rights since 2009. So how much effect does your dad's experience have on you? How much of this is because you are Cambodian because your dad was involved in the Khmer Rouge incident of the 1970s? For me, I think maybe, I can say both influenced from my dad and also from my work experience because since I start work as an internship, before, I really don't know. I cannot imagine that I have this day from my work experience, from my view, from what I see, from my own perspective. It's bring me to become a human rights lawyer and want to have those people. Yeah. Let me ask you to introduce your dad, okay? And I'm sure we will find the answer interesting. Here he is, Sam Owensok Cambodian and he lived in Cambodia at a very difficult time. Why don't you introduce him? To be honest, he's my hero and my role model as well. And he's a really great guy, a great lawyer who passionate on human rights and he always gave all his heart to work for people and for justice. Okay. That's a good beginning. So, Sam, you're a lawyer. When did you get to be a lawyer? And what have you done? What kind of practice have you had, especially Cambodia? Yeah. In fact, I practiced as a defense lawyer since 1990. So, yeah, right now, more than 30 years. And the defense of whom? Who have you defended? Mostly they are poor people and vulnerable people. And mostly our case is again, the powerful, powerful people. And I also handle mainly political case, especially the weaker, I mean the abuse by the ruling. So, your office is in Nampen? Yes. So, here your daughter is essentially a prosecutor and you're essentially a defense person. But you were also into political things. So, you don't mind, you don't mind speaking up to power then? Okay. Okay. I mean, yeah, in many cases, especially political case, you know, the ruling party, they have strong power. They dominate the judiciary. They dominate the armed forces, et cetera. They all have their power. But for the political case, very few lawyers, they are to handle that case. So, that's why I think, but anyway, in our law, I mean, we respect the right to counsel, right? So, that's why we, actually my organization, we volunteer to help those poor people. Okay. I think some of that rubbed off on your daughter, right? Yeah. So, what about, what about Khmer Rouge now? Yeah. Yeah. I and other and Joe, we are working, we are lobbying to establish this tribunal since 1994, you know, at the time that in some of our people were arrested, arrested because we tried to get something from the people to support the establishment of this tribunal. Okay. And until 1999, at the time, Khmer Rouge not yet dropped the weapons. They are still fighting with the government, you know, so that's why we urge the, at the time we think that it is better for the UN to reinforce this issue. That's why we try to lobby, get the thumbprint from people and send to the United Nations to establish an international court for them. At the time, we not yet to think about how to establish the tribunal in Cambodia. At the time we only think, only we urge the UN to establish a special tribunal to try those top leaders of Khmer Rouge. And in 1997, the boss prime minister, Randred and Hun Sen, they also sent a letter to the Julian to have to establish the tribunal to, to, to block those top leaders for justice. And after that, the Khmer Rouge also talked with the government and he dropped the weapons, you know, so that's why the political need to be changed. The, the really, at the time the government is run by only Hun Sen, they, they change their strategy. So they, they don't want to try all the top leader on the, on the small top leader. That was interesting. I, I have a recollection that, as you said, there was difficulty in getting the, what do you call it, the E triple C, the extraordinary chambers in the courts of Cambodia together. People didn't get together on it. And it required, where it resulted in organizations like the United Nations outside of Cambodia to actually put this together. And they were, I guess the United Nations was involved and made it happen. Am I right? Yes. At the time the UN's respond and, but, and then after the Khmer would drop the weapon and join the government. So the, the situation is a little bit changed, you know, so the UN urged us only to try a little, a very small top leader. And the UN want to establish the international court at abroad. So, so they, they think that it would be organized in, in Cambodia, maybe the expense is very less. So, yeah. So, and then we think that, okay. Establishment in Cambodia is maybe also useful, you know, because the, maybe if we, if it took abroad, maybe a few people on the, on the educated people who interested know about that, but if we happen in Cambodia, maybe more people to know about that. Yeah, it's not true. Sure. Yeah. And the very important, one important is the, because mosque, not mosques, maybe all of them are people living in proper time. We have, we call Khmer who trauma, because at the time when we talking about Khmer who is about living in, in Khmer with time, we at the time, maybe we have nightmare, we scare something like that, you know. So, but after we know that, okay, these those top reader are try, and we have, they make a normal, Khmer know more power, maybe it can hear the trauma. I, I myself, I also experienced in healing this trauma too. For you were involved. Yes. Yeah. Like this, you know, in, when we, we, we, we start talking about the, this, you know, since 1998, 1999. And, and then 2000, many people know, that they are, the tribunal will be established. Okay. In 2000, in 2000, you know, he's a prime minister of the Khmer, Khmer was a regime. He came to my house. And asked me to defend him. And, and I, and after that, but at the time I denied because we do not know what happened because the tribunal is not yet established. And at the time, I'm very busy in lobby with the. To, to recommend the internet, internet regulation. So that's why I think that if I, I know that I defend him, something like that, maybe I lose my neutrality. So my recommendation may be not so strong. Okay. So that's why I said no, at the time I cannot say anything. We will see if you, if there is no any other lawyer to, to defend you, I, I will, I will consider your request. I said like that. And after that later, did you later represent him? No, no, no. So, what do you think about the triple C? Has it been successful? Has it done what it was intended to do? Has it found the facts? Has it found the, the reason why? Yes. Some success, some, some, I think that some success, some, some small fail. Because, because after that we have some objective for this, for the establishment of this tribunal. One, we want access to justice. Two, we want to know the truth. Three, we want, use this, the establishment of this tribunal to be deterred the future leader, not to do such thing. And for, maybe it is good for education, maybe young generation can know, can understand. And five is to release, release, releasing the trauma. So that's why, after this, after the ECC start their operation, we urge the, June has the outreach program, so that they can, they invite many people, many poor people, or not poor people, many people around the country, especially from the countryside, to visit the tribe, the tribe, so that they can know, oh, my rules, my rules come, it's ended, something like that. So that they can heal their trauma. Yeah. Well, and the last point, you want this tribunal to be a model for the judicial reform in Cambodia. Well, it was, it was an extraordinary time. This was madness. This was opening countrymen for no reason, really, no obvious reason. Anyway, do people understand yet exactly, what kind of social phenomenon this was, that Cambodia would suffer like that, do they understand why this could happen? Did they understand what it, what it did to the country? I, right now, I think, not, still not yet clear we need some analysis, analyze clearly, especially the clear report from, because the trial, the trial do not show any, because only like a human from both sides, something like that, you know. So that's why make, if the people follow trial, maybe they still confused, you know. So I think maybe we need some analysis, take all facts from the trial and then analyze and tell the people what happened, why the Khmer Rouge killed a lot of people like that. So I asked you before the show, and I was surprised to find that the tribunal is still going on. It's not quite done yet. But what is it doing now? Yeah, like Monica said, that means because we have the appeal process. So that means and the defense lawyer, they are very clever. They are all very clever, very good people, the best lawyer in Cambodia and from the other country, you know. So they know how to prolong, you know, because one strategy of the defense of those crimes, those crimes that are used mostly are old people, right? And then their best study, they try to delay until all of them die. Sometimes, this is a joke for lawyer. So where is it going to go, Sam? I mean, how long do you think it will take to wind this up? Because, you know, 1970 to 79 was a long time ago. And as you say, people are getting older and becomes less relevant to day-to-day life. And, you know, people forget, they move on, they want to find reconciliation. How long is this tribunal going to go? And what has it got left to do before it ends? Ladies, you know, for the people, in fact, we do not focus on the conviction punishment, you know, only establishment of the tribunal, it is a success. I mean, the purpose is to release, you know, I mean, they can hear, okay. We, maybe very few people care about the result of punishment, about conviction, we do care. But I think that the only establishment is success for us. Good. How do people feel now? You know, I mean, as in other outrageous, you know, historical events and periods that have taken place in the world, like for example, in the 20th century. I don't know, this was also the 20th century, wasn't it? And, you know, it's worth studying to prevent it from happening again. And how do people feel? They must all know, even if they weren't there, they must know how traumatic it was. Is Cambodia healed? How does the average Cambodian person feel about what happened now? Are you beyond that? Are you past that? How do you feel about it? We, yeah, like I said, I mean, this trauma can be healed after we know that this regime is dead. So the outreach program tells people, to make sure all people know about this, the people who live in Cambodia with time, they can be here, okay. And right now, I don't think that people still continue to talk about Cambodia. I mean, it's over, you know. I mean, all of us can be healed. What kind of emotional reactions do you have? Are you angry? Yeah, okay. I mean, after 1979, yeah, I feel angry, you know. So that's why I, from 79, I go to the border and join, join resistant folks to fight gang marriages because I don't want the, the communities exist in Cambodia anymore. But after that, and after the establishment, the tribunal, and after I try to follow up the story in the trial, that means Khmeru is over. No more Khmeru. And the people hate communism. Yes. That's part of the whole discussion, isn't it? So what kind of a country is Cambodian now? I know you have good broadband. I wouldn't be able to hear you and see you so well. So that's a good thing. You have a certain amount of technology in Nampen. But what kind of a country is it now? How would you describe it as against other countries in Southeast Asia? Yeah, we, at least we, we a little bit start the democracy. Yeah, but the democracy game is, I mean, the people can play, can play the democracy game. Okay. So, so that's why democracy in Cambodia right now is a little bit bad. Bad because I think that the, the, the ruling parties know, understand very well, you know. So if we, if we compare with Myanmar and Cambodia, our, our ruler, our prime minister very clever, that Myanmar, you know, because my, my prime minister use judiciary, the Myanmar use armed forces is different. But in any way, any way we need time to, I mean, to be a democratic institutions in future. Good to hear. Important. Yeah. You know, I mean, everybody says that the, the power in the world is, is, is in Asia. And that includes Southeast Asia was a great future for Southeast Asia. I think that the question that the last question I put to you is, could, could this happen again? Could what happened with the Khmer Rouge happened again? I don't, I don't think so. But it is, it is very, if, if you, you start Zee maybe, but I think that the people know that because during Khmer Rouge time, they, we have no market. Do not use money. And we, we know that it is wrong. It's not good. And they were, the people know that the market is very important. They make us very happy. Okay. So we cannot go back to the same Khmer Rouge regime anymore. But okay. But we need to educate the young people to know constantly, you know, we should not forget that after that. Because if we do not continue educating young people, maybe they forget and they fall the same mistake. Well, you know, if they say he who doesn't study history is doomed to repeat it. So we all need to know the history, however painful that may be. So Monica, I want to turn to you at the last year, we're almost out of time and ask you how you feel about this. You know, you, you were not around at the time this was happening. And yet it, it, it pervades Cambodia in history. So how do you feel about it? Is this well on your mind? You must have a sort of an impression of it as part of the, what do you call it, the history and culture of Cambodia? What do you think? For me personally, I think I learned a lot from it. And like my dad say, as a young people, I cannot forget the history. Even, yeah, the history already in the past, but we learn from it and we take actions. We advocate to, to prevent it won't be happen again. So from those experience, from those during the transitional periods and also the tribe, you know, we have to bring those for our benefit, bring it and educate it, learn from it. And we can change for the better even now or even in the future. So like PJ doing, like we are not engaged only in Cambodia, but we engage in in other country as well in the cases. So we believe that we all are one. So we can work on helping people and we can work for a better system. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, what I get out of this and I'm interested in your reaction is that the ECCC was valuable. It was necessary. It was necessary for, you know, truth, truth finding. It was necessary for, you know, responsibility as, as finding responsibility and punishing some people. But the important thing is that it was, it was a commission that showed the world, not only Cambodia, but the world, what you do when you find this kind of travesty, this kind of madness has taken place. It's sort of a global responsibility for what happens in every country. It's not limited to one country. So what the commission has done is a lesson, don't you think? Or everywhere, every country, don't you think? I think everywhere, we, like, like I'm said, like, the reason why tribunal using as the hybrid, because we want to show that international and national can work together. And we, we, we, we look for it for the better for a good model for everyone to learn from it. Even sometimes it's a negative outcome, but at least we have positive to learn and trying to tell the world, okay, work on this is what this part is working. So we motivate to everyone to see it and learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. Sam, I want to give you the last, the last words here. What would you like to leave with our audience about, you know, your, your life as a lawyer, your experience in Cambodia, your experience with the, the Khmer Rouge and, and with the development of the country thereafter? What would you like them to think about Cambodia and all these things? Yeah, one, one mistake of Khmer regime is they have no separation of power and they have no independent judiciary and they have no law. Okay. So I, the pillar of democracy, pillar of, I mean, protection or insure the, the freedom and right of the people that maybe need an independent and strong judiciary. Very important. Very important. Yeah. Lessons we, we can easily forget, but we should not forget them. You know, the, the, the human species is so fragile. Democracy is so fragile, as we have seen right here in the US. So it's very important that we learn from all of this. Thank you so much, Sam. Thank you so much, Sam. Enjoy this discussion. Thank you very much. The best to all of you and happy president's day.