 Myth i chi'r huniwch i'r mewn i g石it, Rydych chi'n ei gwneud i gael i ysgolio eu casio i Gwylfaeniaid Llywodraeth, Cymru. fel mathur i Gwylfaeniaid Llywodraeth ac i'r parw mwneud i Gwylfaeniaid Leoló. Byddwn i chi i'r ffrin panffin ar y mewn i gael i'r mewn i'r mewn i'r mynd i'r belygon. First of all, I would like to welcome all our members on this committee, very much forward to working with everyone. Before we move to the first item on the agenda, can I remind everybody, if you have your mobile phone, that you can turn it to silent? The first agenda is item 1, and that is declarations of interests. This is the chance for everyone on the committee to declare any interests that are relevant to the work of the committee. I need to start off by saying that I do not have any relevant interests that I wish to declare this morning, but I go round the committee and get everyone to confirm if they have any registers of interests that they want to put on the record. I turn to Clare Adamson, MSP. I have no relevant interests to declare this morning. Alasdair Allan, you are next. I am nothing particular to what I prefer for people to my registered interests. I have no relevant interests to declare. I do not think that there are any registered interests that I am required to declare, but I would like to draw members' attention to the voluntary section of the entry, which shows that I am an associate member of the national union of journalists. Since joining this committee, I have also asked for an addition to the voluntary section to show that I am a vice president of the European movement in Scotland. That is a very good opportunity for me, Patrick, to say that I am also one of the vice presidents of the European movement in Scotland. That is also on my voluntary register of interests. Thank you for that reminder. Jenny Middlow, you are next. Thank you, convener. I have no relevant interests to declare, however I would refer people to my register of interests and specifically my voluntary commitment that I am a trustee of a museum. Thanks, Jenny, and Sue Webber. Thanks, convener. I have no relevant interests to declare. That is great. I thank everybody for that. Just for the record, you can see all of our records of interests and our voluntary records on everybody's link on the Scottish Parliament's website, if people watching this broadcast are interested. I am moving on to agenda item 2, which is the choice of convener. Our key task is to choose a convener. The Parliament has agreed that only members of the Scottish National Party are eligible for nomination as convener of our committee. My understanding is that Clare Adamson MSP is that party's nominee. Does any member disagree with that nomination? If you do, could you just type in our chat bar now? I am delighted to say that nobody has put in the chat bar, so that means that nobody disagrees with your nomination. I congratulate Clare Adamson on her appointment and hand over the meeting to you to chair the rest of our meeting. Thank you very much, Ms Boyack, for chairing those first two agenda items. Thank you to the committee. I am absolutely delighted to be made convener today and really looking forward to working with you going forward. The next agenda item was my place in the convener's brief. The next agenda item is the committee to choose a deputy convener. The Parliament has agreed that only members of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party are eligible for nomination as deputy convener of this committee. I understand that Mr Cameron MSP is the party's nominee. Does any member disagree with that nomination? If so, could you just type in our chat bar now? I do not see anything in the chat bar, so I am delighted to congratulate Donald Cameron on his appointment as deputy convener. The extent of our remit is very challenging, and at times I think that we may have different opinions, but I hope that we will really work well constructively together and consensually, if not all of the time, most of the time in this committee. Thank you very much for your endorsement of both convener and deputy convener this morning. The next agenda item is the legacy papers. We now turn to the session 5 legacy papers relevant to this committee, which are from the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee and the session 5 finance constitution committee for legacy papers. Members have been provided with a helpful summary of the legacy papers ahead of the meeting. It would be helpful to have a short discussion on issues raised in the papers and any priorities that the members would like to the clerking team to maybe take forward to what will be a business planning session for the committee and our work programme at the end of August. If members would like to comment, could they put an R in the chat? As a deputy convener, I think that it is time for Mr Cameron to perhaps start his conversation. Thank you very much, convener. I congratulate you on your appointment as our convener and also say that I am delighted to be the deputy convener of this committee in what should be a fascinating time of Parliament. In terms of comments on the legacy papers, I will speak very broadly and hopefully briefly, because I think that that is the real purpose of this agenda item. If I could start with culture, I think that arts funding for me is going to be a very important aspect of the work of this committee, especially in the wake of the pandemic. I was briefly on the culture committee in the last session of the Parliament where this was covered, but I think that the state of funding of the arts is going to be absolutely pivotal for arts organisations in the next few years as we seek to recover from Covid. I am especially interested in exploring the kind of relationship between central funding of arts and also local funding of more community-based arts groups. Turning to Europe, clearly the UK's relationship with the EU in the wake of Brexit and the TCA, as well as the overarching role that I think that this committee can play in terms of how the next few years go. In my view, I do not think that it should be the purpose of this committee to investigate specific aspects of policy such as trade or agriculture or the environment or health that fall within the remit of subject committees. I think that our role as a committee should probably be slightly more overarching, as I say. However, there are clearly important issues such as the Northern Ireland protocol, which I think the legacy paper mentions as being quite an urgent matter, and it is clearly very topical. Beyond that devolution in general, I think that the workings of the devolved settlement will require our scrutiny, not just in terms of Brexit and common frameworks, but also more generally. I was very interested in what the legacy paper said about inter-parliamentary working, and it would be my strong view that we energise that as a process in terms of the role of this committee and our relations with similar committees, both in the UK Parliament but in other parliaments across the UK and also more widely. Finally, convener, in terms of international focus, the title of external affairs is important. I think that while Europe will necessarily dominate discussions, it is important to note that we have a more wider international focus and purely the European Union in terms of Scotland's relations with the rest of the world more generally. I was struck by the comment about international development that was made in the legacy paper. I think that is an interesting aspect of policy that we could look at. That is all that I have to say at the moment. Thank you for your time. I see that a number of members have indicated that they would like to contribute. Please put an hour in the chat if you wish to do so, and I will bring in Ms Boyack. I think that the first thing that I wanted to say is that we have two excellent legacy papers that are going to be really useful to us. The one from the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee is really good. There are a lot of recommendations, but bringing the two together from my perspective is what we can do to add quality in terms of scrutiny from the Parliament's perspective. On Brexit, there are issues that we need to think through. Donald's right and other committees will be interested in things like Erasmus Plus and trade, but the wider issues of what happens post Brexit and our work in looking at the devolution settlement and how it is working and picking up those overarching issues, as Donald referred to. I would be interested in the recommendations about scrutinising the Scottish Government in terms of the external affairs and international development work that it does, both in terms of the external affairs strategy but also in terms of the international development programme. I think that both of those are going to be really important post Covid. As the world begins to reopen again, what is our role in Scotland? That is a really important issue for us. The point about common frameworks and inter-parliamentary work is really important. That is a key issue for us to promote as a committee. It is partly about our relationship with the devolution settlement, but it is also about the post-Brexit relationship across the UK. That is a really important piece of work for us. On culture, for me, there is a huge agenda in terms of post Covid. We had the First Minister's statement yesterday about the beginnings of reopening for us in Edinburgh and the Lothian's festivals. That is a huge issue for us, but it takes you to culture and the capacity of theatres, live music venues to come back post pandemic. There is the impact of arts funding, which is pre Covid, but it is also what happens going forward to regenerate that sector. I suspect that I am not alone, but the contact that I have had from artists and musicians, those involved in the culture sector and people that do not work full-time, that I basically had no work at all during Covid. I think that there are a lot of issues to pick up there. My final point is that it would be helpful for us to get an update. We have the legacy expert panels report. For our first session, it is useful to get an update from them just to help to shape our work, because there is such a lot on our brief. Accessing that expert report is about six months on since they did their report. I think that that would be quite useful for an update. Thanks, convener. Thank you very much, Ms Boyack. I bring in Mr Harvey. Thank you very much, convener. Like others, congratulations to yourself and Donald Cameron for your appointments. I think that the committee has a really interesting mix of topics. Although, as you said at the outset, there will be some in our remit that are clearly partisan and might result in some slightly more polarized debates, I would like to think that there are more aspects of our remit where we might find that we are on the same page. The constitutional side, first of all, is that, obviously, there is a possibility. Some would think that there is a likelihood that we will have a bill referred to us on a referendum, but given that the framework legislation for referendums has already been passed, the bill itself is likely to be fairly simple and technical in a way. The debate around constitutional issues is much deeper and more complex. I think that we might have some thought about how we might separate out having a debate on what might be a fairly straightforward bill in legislative terms from the much richer debate on constitutional questions. I very much agree with Donald Cameron's comment about inter-parliamentary working. Even aside from constitutional debates in recent years, there has always been much more of an opportunity to do inter-parliamentary work that has ever been realised, not just with the UK Parliament but others as well. There is also scrutiny and challenge to the inter-governmental machinery, which I think that even many at UK level would recognise as pretty dysfunctional at the moment and needs to be examined. There are some constitutional issues that will be cross-committee as well. Issues such as the fiscal framework, which will involve constitutional view as well as issues for the finance committee. Issues around immigration and housing. Issues even around health, where, for example, there are proposals in several party manifestos from the Hollywood election relating to the regulation of health professions and there are devolved and reserved aspects of that. There may be a number of issues that are slightly lower down the list of priorities for the committee but where there is a bit of an interaction. On Europe, as people have said, the impact of Brexit at the issue of common frameworks, especially in relation to common frameworks, parliamentary accountability and how decisions that are effectively being signed off between Governments get help to account in parliamentary terms, either here or at UK level. That is a really big unanswered constitutional question about our current constitutional status. The point was made about relationships between the UK and the different parts of the UK. I think that the same point should be made about Europe. Without the previous role of the former Europe committees when we were a member of the European Union in terms of engaging with the European legislative process, we now have a responsibility to maintain strong and active relationships at European level. That will be important for Scotland for the long term. Finally, on culture, I am really glad that everybody who has spoken has talked about the importance of not losing sight of that. Culture has moved from different committee portfolios every session for the Scottish Parliament. I am right in saying that it has shuffled around between different committee remits at every new session. That is regrettable. We are really keen that we do not see those issues fall off of our radar. As Donald said, the impact of Covid and the potential for looking at Covid recovery in a way that benefits what is called the cultural scene, we have a tradition of talking about the creative industries, which is relevant and important, but creativity and creative opportunities for people to be involved in and have access to creativity and culture goes beyond what is formal creative industries. It relates to arts funding, as people have talked about, but it relates to much more than just that. In particular, the work that the last European External Affairs Tourism and Culture Committee did on the screen sector is going to be really important. That is something that used to be really significant in Scotland. It has had a long-term decline, but it has a real opportunity to rebuild and become much more significant. I know that you are already aware that I have flagged up the issue of BBC Studios in Glasgow and potential changes that are being proposed by the BBC at the UK level. It is unclear whether BBC Scotland will be in a position to make a decision for itself about that and the suggestion that a decision may even be made next month, which would not allow the committee the opportunity to scrutinise that question. I have suggested that we write, in the first sense, to both the BBC Scotland in copying and the director general at the UK level, asking that that be considered and that some caution be exercised and that we have the opportunity to take evidence before a decision is reached. That is a bit of an overview, but I hope that members of the committee will be happy to support writing a letter along those lines. I thank you very much, Mr Harvey. I will go to Mr Fett-Allen next. I thank you very much, convener. I congratulate you and the new deputy convener as well. I think that Patrick has covered some of the constitutional issues there, where I have to look at a referendum bill. On the point, I think that Patrick has just made about intergovernmental relations as someone who has served or endured being on a joint ministerial committee. I think that this committee, regardless of our differing perspectives on the constitution, has to go up to the fact that that is not an effective mechanism for conversation between our Governments and start to look at perhaps what the alternatives might be in our view if we can come to any kind of consensus about that. The Brexit legacy is obviously something that we are going to look at and implications for the devolution settlement, implications for questions in the wake of Brexit around things like UK spending and what might have been considered devolved areas in the past, trade deals. I think that Donald made a good point about having to be careful that we don't tread too far into the work of other committees, but I suppose that there are a number of things in our remit and in the legacy papers that probably will involve us having to find some kind of modus revendi with the other committees. It's difficult to see how we can talk about culture without talking about the place of culture in schools. It's difficult to see how we can talk about Brexit without talking about agriculture, so I think that there's a bit of work to be done before we get started in how we establish good relations with other committees to make sure that we can do some of that. On international development against an area that I've been involved with in the past, I suppose that as well as scrutinising what the Scottish Government is doing on international development, that all has to be seen not just in the context of Covid but in the wider context of that. I'm sorry that we've been political so early on, but a UK Government seems to be withdrawing from some of its commitments in the international development area as well. That has an implication on the setting of Scotland's relatively modest but important international development work to find itself. On international development as well, there's specifically a job of work to be done in not just celebrating but looking at our relationship with Malawi since there's such a particular relationship. Thank you very much. Miss Minto, and finally, Miss Minto first. Great. Thank you, Claire, and congratulations on your convenership and all the congratulations to Donald, too. I'm new MSP, so new to the committee structures, but I would like to reflect exactly what Patrick Stewart said. I think that this is probably the most exciting committee that there is, and it's hugely wide-ranging. The mix of MSPs on this, all bringing different experiences, whether within the Parliament or out with the Parliament, I think, is really going to add to the work that we can do. I won't repeat what other people have said, but clearly leaving the EU and how we move forward from that is going to be a big part of our work. Reflecting on the relationships that we have across parliaments, as Patrick Stewart said, not just only Westminster but also the European Parliament as well and the other devolved nations, I think that that's really important, given that the Scottish Government has made a commitment to keep pace with EU law. I wonder as well how we work with other committees and as well as the relationships across parliaments. I think that we have to have strong relationships across the committees within our own Parliament. My background is very mixed, but I have experience of working in broadcasting and also the arts. Like others have mentioned, the impact of Covid on those industries and the creativity of people who work in those areas has been very badly impacted. I think that not only do we have to worry about how it is impacted in the city settings, but we also have to think about the impact that it has had on rural areas and the likes of festivals or art shows and that, including our indigenous languages as well. Broadcasting is interesting that Patrick brought up the letter about the structures within BBC Scotland and whether there is further work that needs to be done around commissioning of output and the various channels that we have. I'll finish there, but I'm very excited to be part of this committee. I'm looking forward to working with experts across the various fields and learning more about helping to shape our future. Thanks, Claire, and congratulations on your convenership for this committee. I suppose that I'm new, like Jenny, to this Parliament and new to the committee, but it is quite a broad-reaching remit. Like the other members have mentioned, it's really key that we don't step on people's toes on that subject committee, but there is definitely somewhere for us to dip in and out as and when necessary. It's finding that degree and that balance of influence and it's going to be key for us to be a really effective committee, so I'd like that to be interesting to see how that develops. I'm a Lothian list MSP, so the festival and the culture side of things is really important to me. How the festivals and everything that comes around that Edinburgh economy changes post Covid and how it adapts is going to be key, but it's also a sector that's been widely left with an unsupported in the last 15-16 months, so we need to be very aware of that as well. Focusing also on the four points that were brought out in the legacy paper, the bit about the census 2022, I think that's something that we really have to make sure that we're on top of. I was, as a citizen, very disappointed that we didn't take part in that UK wide census in 2021, so it's really key that we figure out how we get back on track with the rest of the country and make sure that census is carried out. It does take place, there's no excuse for that, to not take place any more. I also remember all the emotion that we had when we saw the fire at the Glasgow School of Arts, as I think you must. Sorry, it was very upsetting. We must make sure that there's an investigation into that and see what's happened, because that was a great cultural travesty for the country. Finally, on that inter-parliamentary working, again, from being an outsider for longer than perhaps some of the members here, people that are in our country don't want to see us bickering between the different parliaments in the UK. They want to see us working together in a much more positive frame. If that's one thing that we take away from this, we have to start working in a much more positive way and finding positive things to work on rather than always drilling down on the minuscule's negatives, because the people don't want to see that. There is time for that, but we have to be mindful of what we're doing here to do. That's my part. Thank you very much, convener. Thank you to everyone for some really interesting points. I'm really glad that the importance of inter-parliamentary working to the fore for most of you today was something that I was very conscious that we need to be working very hard on going forward. I'm delighted that there's consensus in building those relationships across the UK and in the wider context as well. I was to reflect on Patrick's comments about culture. I think that maybe the legacy paper from the Education and Culture Committee that I sat on for a long time was perhaps instrumental in culture being moved away from education and into Europe, which I thought was a better fit for it. That being said, the issue of crossover work, Alasdair and I sat on an education committee that had a substantive bit of work on music tuition in schools and covering the cultural aspects of that. I think that such as the European Committee—it's not so much the finance committee aspects, but the European Committee—has always had that overreaching and cross-parliamentary responsibility. I think that that's worked well in the past. I think that the conveners have been able to work collectively together through the convener's group and with the clerks working to ensure that there isn't a conflict between the other committees. I'd be very keen to ensure that that happens going forward. I was also very taken that, when we do culture, we sometimes concentrate on the big ticket items and the major festivals and the larger organisations and the bigger funded organisations. However, to hear that culture in the community is of interest to Ms Minto and Ms Boyack. That's something that I'm keen to investigate as well. Pulling together some of the strands, I think that we have a very definite role to play in just how devolution now works in the prospective worlds, because we were established as a parliament in a very different constitutional context. We may have a role in looking at fit for purpose operations of the Scottish Parliament and some of those relations in a post-Brexit world as we go forward. I think that some really interesting issues to take forward. Patrick, thank you so much for bringing to your attention the BBC situation. I understand that all members have had an opportunity to view a draft letter. If anyone is not happy with that letter going out, could they put an end in the chat now? I'm not saying that, so that's agreed that that letter as drafted by the clerks will go to the BBC. I also minded this morning that there's been an announcement on the possible privatisation of channel 4, which of course will have an impact on a footprint in Scotland as well, so that's something absolutely immediately that has come to the fore that we might be wanting to have a look at as well. I think that we've given the clerks enough to think about. I really look forward to coming back in August for a work programme meeting. That will be probably a full day of discussion, a full day of proposals. We may well have an indication of the Government programme and likely bills that might come to the committee going forward. On that note, we've got enough to be going on with just now, and it concludes our business for today. Thank you everyone for attending and looking forward. As everyone said, it's a very exciting opportunity in this committee to do some really good work. Thank you once again. That ends the committee for today.