 seeing the presence of a quorum of crazy people. I am going to call the meeting of the governance organization and legislation committee to order at 9 31 am and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 22 and 107 of the acts of 2022 and extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023. This meeting will be held via remote means. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. Members of the public can access the meeting via zoom or by telephone. Good morning everyone. So what I'm going to look at is First please call the roll and announce audio and video recording if you didn't. This meeting is being recorded whether I like it or not and to make sure everyone can see and be heard I'm going to call the roll. Councillor Griezmer? Present. Councillor Hanakie? Present. And Councillor DeAngelois is present. Councillor Taub may be joining us in about a half an hour. Councillor Miller will not be here today. So I'm looking over the agenda. There's a lot more material in it than we're going to get to today and that's fine but it looks like we can look at the proposed rental registration by law and regulations for clarity consistency and actionability. We're going to be carrying over the Amherst Black Reparations Committee charge. Town manager goals we should look at that and try to get final draft and we have a carryover discussion. We also have minutes from November 8th meeting so I'd like at this point to see if there's if people will accept the minutes as written. I move that we accept the November 8th minutes as written. Is there a second? Second. Okay and I'll call the roll. Griezmer? Aye. Hanakie? Aye. And I'm an aye. Okay that's done. The other thing that's happening is a finance committee and we can talk about this briefly. Bob Hegner has become a councillor so he will not be a non-voting resident member if he's on finance. The other thing is Bernie's term is ending so there's going to be two vacancies so what I'm trying to do is figure out whether we should start now by posting and posting the positions on the town bulletin board or anything like that or should we wait until January. When does Bernie's term end? The beginning of 2024 I think. June. Oh it's June. Okay never mind. I'm sorry. I think Bob formally resign or submit his notice before we quote have an impending vacancy even if we know it's happening. Okay so we can disregard that for now and get it up in January. Now let's go ahead and ask should we start advertising so that as soon as the finance committee is formed in January they can look at if GOL is formed in January. But GOL cannot advertise until there's an impending vacancy and that needs a letter of resignation from someone to create the impending vacancy. Okay so what I can do is contact Bob and ask him to resign. We're asking him if he plans on resigning. And it would be effective January 1st. And if he plans on resigning if he submits it earlier with an effective date of before he becomes a counselor we could then advertise the position to start that 14 day time clock so that whatever GOL is in existence in January can move straight to other things. Right but the other thing I just want to mention I you know I certainly don't want to start the advertisement of it over the two weeks of Christmas and New Year's. So if we're going to advertise it we should try to do it as soon as we can and make sure that it's open other than when people aren't paying attention. Okay okay well I'll contact Bob and we can go from there. So I guess we can get started. I'm waiting for Jennifer. I think she'll have more input on the town manager goal so I'd like to start with the proposed rental registration bylaw and regulations. So can you pull that up Athena? Bylaw or regulations? Bylaw first and then regs. And knowing your efficiency Mandy you've probably gone through these already but. Well I read the comments. Yeah. I haven't thought about necessarily the changes that might need to be made because it's a committee decision on what. Well it's a committee can't make them. Yes if they're clarity and consistency this committee can. Okay all right bossy bossy woman. Okay I think you can scroll down to the first. Well I've seen this residential bylaw so much in CRC that I'm, Lynn do you need to be going through or can we get to the first comment? I'm going to trust you but really look forward to the fact that the two of you are intimately familiar with it. So the first comment is a continuing as it sort of implies continuing comment and we've changed the language CRC changed the language multiple times. The goal here from CRC's point of view is to ensure and end at the request of the building commissioner and building inspector to ensure that if there is a problem where they need someone on site to access the building without you know breaking the door down or to deal with tenants that have been misplaced or or displaced because of like a fire or something that they have someone accessible and able to show up within a certain amount of time to do meetings like that and things so that that was the goal of this language it used to be the current bylaw I think says 50 miles 25 miles I could look up what the current bylaw says but as you can see what the attorney says is maybe instead of specific locations timely manner or something like that yeah and Athena can you make this a tad larger I'm having a hard time seeing it but um and I don't have a paper copy with me thank you that's thank you very much um I think that it's reasonable to just change it be able to act on the owner's behalf in a timely manner um do we really I mean if there's a fire I can't imagine that the person in charge wouldn't react and respond unless they were out of the country or something but what do you think so in other words we would end it with property um no on behalf with regard to the property in a timely manner right I'm sorry but we would get really bad yeah and and the and if someone questions a change at GOL it would be for actionability in a sense right um because Jonathan's citing a potential legal issue with the language right so I think we can go right on to the next comment if people are comfortable with that yeah please so see the anything in blue is also Jonathan's and that that addition is I think a result of the letter yes it is yeah and I think that's fine as an actionability issue see I saw the letter as very much part of you know legal actionability etc and this addition pertains to that yeah right so the next comment as as Siena types this relates to look at short term definition up here number 19 that was just posed that says 31 or fewer consecutive days and then exemptions that say residential rental property rented less than 14 days cumulative in a calendar year so the use of the word short term rental appears in the application part of this and this is where we haven't spoken to Jonathan so I he he flagged something um that I don't think is actually in conflict he's just not clear as to the difference in those two items so we define short term to include that anyone who rents this property rents property on a short term basis i.e. Airbnb's is required to obtain a permit that will show up somewhere in you know residential you know all dwellings you know and and then within that you have to if you're a short term rental you have to prove a couple of different other things in your application and provide a couple of other things including that you comply with state law on tax remittance and and stuff the exemption where you do not have to obtain a permit is meant to say yes if you rent on a short term basis on an Airbnb basis but you do so less than 14 days in an entire year you don't have to obtain the permit so basically you you've used the um I guess it's the tax cut off is the 14 days um no we CRC thought of that as if you're doing it for more than 14 days a year you're truly operating some sort of business type thing um versus if it's one weekend a year you're not really operating it as a business that that that was the that that was CRC's thinking in terms of the 14 days so he he indicates um you know what constitutes short term and what specific uses are are you know um I I don't think there's so it might be a clarity issue I'm not sure CRC ever figured out how to clear up the clarity other than removing the use of the word short term under exemptions in E. Yeah so what about the possibility of here um something about residential rental properties rented on a short term basis less than 14 days cumulative in the calendar year you do that but feels clunky and it feels really clunky but I understand he's trying to he's trying to meld short term with the issue that one is 31 days and one is 14 he sees a conflict there but I'm not sure there is one he sees it yeah yeah but other than okay I'm just trying to what about other than the definition of short term it is that that term is used in F1D whether the property in the application you have to deter you have to disclose whether the property will be rented for short term rentals um and then provide the following information um and then in okay the tenant information sheet references short term and then those are the only two places it is for tenant information sheet it's where you display the information sheet um so why don't we in this one just say in the beginning of the sentence short term residential render properties rented less than 14 days cumulative in the calendar year what if it's um less than 14 I'm just trying to put short term in with it some place where it doesn't sound as clunky well for short term is 31 or fewer days right so this says basically short term residential properties rented less than 14 cumulative days in a calendar year yeah I see what you're saying yeah I think that could work what do you think Pat I think it can work also say it again short term residential prop residential rental properties property yeah just add short term in front of it and that's it yeah and that takes I think that takes care of that and and Athena the T in term needs to be capitalized it's the way we defined it whoa I'm yes go ahead I just have a question if if the definition of short term capital S capital T is different in the section in the definition then why would we add it here because that's it we're using a different definition here so I believe the short term up in 19 so this is where it's not a different definition okay that that's that's the confusion here which is why how do we get it clear the definition in item 19 is to say if you have a lease for less than or a rental agreement for 31 or fewer days you qualify as quote a short term rental um and so maybe we need to add you know down in f1d it says short term rentals and so maybe the term shouldn't be short term it should be short term rentals in the defined part in number 19 and b19 and then make sure we add it in and so so we're saying you are a short term rental if your lease agreements are less than 31 days and if you have lease agreements less than 31 days when you apply for a permit you must prove that the property is registered with the commonwealth of massachusetts for short term rentals and payment of taxes there's a there's an airbnb tax now right and you have to disclose the number of calendar days you rent that property as a short term rental in the previous year so you have two different two extra application requirements if you are if your rental property is defined as a short term rental so maybe number 19 in b that term short term should actually say short term rental oh yeah the short term that might help clear stuff up yes yes um good then anytime it shows up so then f d f1d the r in rental needs to be capitalized um and d1 also anytime it shows up oh we didn't even short in term didn't have the hyphen in d f1 d1 you know and so so we're trying to be clear that short term rentals are applicable that this bylaw applies to them except if you are an airbnb you have to in order to get your permit you have to prove your pay and your taxes under state law basically um and under state law short term is defined as 31 or fewer days a month or fewer but we're then also saying if you are renting your property out if me as a person um decides i'm going away for a week in the summer and only a week or i'm going away for the homecoming weekend or graduation weekend and during that graduation weekend i rent out my house to someone i don't need a permit under this bylaw to do so because while yes i am a short term rental i am not doing it for more than 14 days cumulative in a calendar year now if i do it for my one week vacation in the summer and homecoming weekend and all three graduation weekends and so i get to 15 days yes i now need a permit that's what fe4 is trying to say right so um so if you fall into this exemption you still have to do the state process for airbnb stuff possibly i don't know how i divide it they define it by less than 31 days not less than 31 and more than 14 i don't actually they define for landlord tenant eviction type laws 31 is the cutoff between when you gain a lot of tenancy protections i don't know what short term rental under the airbnb law is is where that comes in um but but you gain a lot more tenant protections if you've got a lease that is more than 31 days long whereas if you're like a hotel or something where you've you've got an agreement for one night you don't have the same eviction protections that someone who's been there for 40 days does that's where the 31 day cutoff comes in i actually don't know airbnb wise where those requirements are in terms of like how when when do you need a registration certificate and yeah but but what we're saying is for purposes of local bylaw we do not need you to get a residential rental permit from the town of amherst if you're doing the airbnb thing for less than 14 days 13 or fewer days in a year we're not going to make you go through our residential rental property bylaw but if you're doing the airbnb thing for 14 15 21 300 days a year you have to go through this process yeah are we comfortable to move on yeah keep going then i assume the yellows are all because on yeah something changes yeah the yellows are just section references so it's easy to see it's easy to find if you're like oh i just changed section h to l where are all the ages so that that's really all it is they come out when we're done maxima stuff interesting right so this used to have sections on emergency access and all and we removed those in crc um okay and and this is this comment is why up in c or whatever constitution us massachusetts all of those that other language was added about conformance with that um we're not overriding any of those protections here okay is there any way to note any of this here or do we think it's sufficient above i this i mean this is almost like the crux of what some of the people are saying in the legal stuff yeah i mean the own what so l one owner and for example could we say something about state law state and federal law take precedence over anything here or or that that's what um c the c section c on page two says state law not preempted nothing in this by law shall supersede alter or vary the requirements of us constitution the massachusetts constitution and the massachusetts sanitary building right fire or other commonwealth or local laws or regulations related to that so that's that's where i think lauren said because of c we're not we're not preempting that and so if there's a conflict state law you know prevails prevails but we're saying hey you know tell the landlord needs to notify the tenants of this or makes it needs to make a good faith effort to arrange access and we're tempting you know and and owner inspection authorization is saying if you want a rental permit you as owner are authorizing an inspection the inspection that's required to do that that's not saying we're not going to give you notice right you know um and all um but if the owner the owner can't what l1 is saying is the owner themselves cannot refuse to allow their property to be inspected if they want a permit right okay just like i can't refuse to allow my car to be inspected if i want a license a license plate issued and a registration issued yeah i can refuse to have it inspected if i don't want to be able to drive right like you you want a service we're saying you yourself owner need to allow that inspection we're not saying the tenant has to we if we're saying notify the tenant make a good faith effort but we're also going to follow all the tenant laws okay okay and jonathan here doesn't indicate that that is problematic yeah basically he's saying use the other laws just yeah on an emergency basis he says this law is not the one that's going to be used because the other laws are already more favorable to the inspectors to get them in yeah okay are we comfortable to move on yeah so it's length of inspection here we go i think we can just simply add a sentence towards the end that says the principal code official has the authority to determine the length of the expectation or makes the determination or something right the has the authority to determine the length of the suspension yeah he kind of gave us the language right yeah good do we need to say authority has the authority to just determine or will determine oh it's authorized too i think is how we do it yeah has the authority to determine or is maybe is authorized to okay that's fine all right yep okay and that takes care of that one i believe yeah she's going to make her little note yeah her gol i'm i'm trying to do this to help pat write a report about these change i'm not gonna no i think this also is useful for the council yeah yeah so it looks and okay go ahead so i was going to say we don't want to vote on this until we've done the regulations because there's a comment in the regulations that refers to a conflict with the bylaw so we might want to maybe we should we get to that let's let's finish the regulations and then and then do the bylaw um can you make it smaller i feel like i'm looking at this when i'm going there we go so i think the first two comments what in jonathan said this the first time this was reviewed at crc but the language was uh the original language jonathan reviewed was a response to a message left on this number shall be returned or responded to and we changed shall to should um to address his concerns the first time uh so i just wanted to note that for gol's purposes here it's not a mandate anymore it's a suggestion a strong suggestion of should be but jonathan still has some concerns it looks like right and it seems that what basically what he's saying is that uh court won't uphold it um and he's saying it would be hard to enforce and and it's really not enforceable with the word should anyway right um yeah i don't see it you know it's not but the crc's thought was okay shall is not enforceable there's problems there if we change it to should we're still it's we're still putting forth in the regulations the expectation and and setting forth what um expectations the town has for access to these numbers the question is for gol is that enough or should it be struck the danger of striking it i don't see any that doesn't make sense if if it's just a show does it make sense to just say in a reasonable amount of time in a re yeah rather than striking it or left on a number by the town so so what jon jon thompson and rob more said the reason they like this and and this was actually it's not in the current bylaw but it's in state colleges i think as shells um but but again when you're in the middle of the night and i think jon regularly talked about a fire that displaced tenants and they're trying to do stuff at the property and they need to contact an owner waiting four hours for the owner to wake up and respond keeps the tenants you know is is not is not good service for anyone there as everyone's standing around waiting for owners to respond to a telephone number and so they thought having these expectations in there would be helpful um you know i i'm more worried about the tenant should the response to the tenants than i am to the town like the second yeah it seems to me like that's regulating the relationship between the tenant and the you know but maybe get rid of that one but leave the one about the town and if we leave the one about the town for jonathan's sake could we say something a response to a message regarding an emergency left on this number or something like like putting it in and you know something that that indicates the should and and why why an hour right i think i think it's in the sentence above that a thing a response to a message left in the case of emergency yeah i would help wherever it belongs there's eight to the start of the first highlight right a response to a message left on this number in case of emergency by the town or something like that or it should be by the town in case of emergency yeah or yeah and then i think the suggestion was to delete this the last sentence of that that one right yeah i just take it out and i think i've seen uh at the end of the meeting can you send me this version the address shall not be considered what are you reading the next number three yeah uh does this need to take out returning well i i guess the question is would we leave in any time frames or is it just the email address shall not be considered an emergency contact period i think that's cleaner there needs to be a period after contact unless i guess the period is a problem yeah yeah still okay so this b1a comment is where it he identifies a conflict with the bylaw so the bylaw yeah the bylaw let me pull up so the bylaw says and and this this we've been trying to figure out how to meld these the regulation with the bylaw requirement and and we've gotten closer jonathan had a lot more conflicts the first time between these two sections um the bylaw says inspection required in accordance with the applicable laws and regulations adopted under this bylaw and accept as provided in section i b1 residential rental properly shall have passed an inspection by the town of its dwelling units common areas exteriors and yards in accordance with the applicable frequency schedule in the regulations adopted under this bylaw before a permit is issued or renewed to confirm blah blah blah so that's where it says it has to pass before it is issued or renewed as in accordance with the applicable laws now and this bylaw um now the conditional permit can be issued um a residential rental permit that does not pass the initial or renewal inspection or has been scheduled for an initial or renewal inspection that has not yet occurred but has complied with all other requirements may be issued a conditional permit the conditional permit shall so um so the question is how do we meld those two sections with this initial inspection requirement one thing that could be done is in the frequency schedule um initial inspection all residential rental property shall be inspected prior to the issuance of the first residential rental permit issue you know just get rid of the or within six months um right you want to refer to that section of the bylaw in here that might be a good idea so so what we could potentially add in as that good idea Athena is initial inspection prior to the issuance if an inspection is is scheduled a conditional permit may be issued you know in accordance with oh what would that be g4 uh did you say ag for um no just g4 i want to put the yeah it's of the bylaw so in accordance with bylaw section g4 no so so yeah i think you could just add section in front of the g4 that's already there you want to capitalize the word section yeah i'm still confused all residents are here to the issuance the first residential rental permit issued so our present bylaw requires this right so no our present bylaw requires a property owner in its application to obtain a permit to certify that the property and dwelling unit comply with all code mass code regulations and local amazonian bylaws okay so i i'm a long-term owner of a rental property and i read this does it mean i have to rush i can't rent until i get another permit so this is where a b1 a1 for clarity upon adoption of this bylaw all residential rental property whether or not they have prior will need to undergo an initial inspection within five years of the effective date of the bylaw so that's where we've tried to say you know does that mean then the conditional this this is where we've struggled right we know if adopting this not every property can be inspected before between january and july of this year right right um and so that's where b1 a1 comes in of once this is adopted there will be a schedule um with an initial inspection and so how does that maybe um maybe that b1 a1 would be better in the bylaw itself instead of the regulations because it would override the bylaw that says and then you wouldn't need a conditional permit you would be able to get a permit or something it's still i mean i'm this is where i'm i'm not you i'm not the people that have you know dwelled on this so i don't know where else to look particularly i i'm just looking at this and it it makes me feel like as a long-term owner i can't rent until i get a rent a new residential rental permit under this law well that is correct you would need to follow this law to get the one if this is adopted now you would need to follow the new bylaw to obtain your renewal permit in july right can we pause briefly and confirm that jennifer can hear and be heard she joined the meeting at 10 11 jennifer can yes i can hear thank you and jennifer has a hand up go ahead jenn um no i just want to say so if you apply for a permit but you haven't received it yet you can begin to rent so if you want to have a renter you could start them like tomorrow as long as you put in your application so you don't have to wait till the application's approved isn't that correct mandy uh no you the the way the bylaw is written except under exemptions it shall be unlawful for the owner of residential rental property to operate or rent to individuals or households residential rental property or any dwelling unit until the applicable permit including a conditional permit has been issued so okay i thought maybe it's different than it is now i thought rob had said as long as your paperwork was in but so the conditional permit that we put into the bylaw and this is where maybe some of this regulations need to move back into the bylaw the conditional permit in the bylaw says if you've submitted your application and you failed your inspection or your inspection is scheduled but we haven't done it yet we can issue you as long as every other part of that application is complete so if you're a short term rental you've proven you've got the state whatever and you've submitted everything else required then we can issue a conditional permit as you wait await that inspection how long is the conditional permit effective the conditional permit under the bylaw um let me find that section again a conditional permit um the conditional permit shall shall specify the duration of the permit and the time frame during which the inspection deficiency shall be remedied or the inspection shall take place um so the conditional permit so so i guess if we look at this five year trying to get everyone in five years the first four years the first year 80 percent of the rentals if not more may have a conditional permit because the inspection is scheduled four years out or something right um and that's that's that's the difficulty is how do you implement a bylaw over five years right well but that's what this bylaw is that's that's what is going to happen with this bylaw right and so then how do you account for that five year implementation in the bylaw itself and I think what Jonathan is identifying here in the the inspection initial inspection and all is or you know or work it might be required inspection instead of initial inspection so it seems to me that all property all people who presently have permits should be allowed to continue as long as they're paying their fees and all that other good stuff until their first inspection takes place and yes somehow or another I would be very uncomfortable with a rental that says conditional permit for four years right and so that's that's the how how do we word the two together so for that so somehow or another is there is there an implementation section either here like there was remember in the charter there was that section about implementation and I don't think that belongs in the bylaw I think it probably belongs in the regulations but some not a specific implementation section but b1a1 the section right below this blue section is where we as CRC attempted to it's right there just just the the immediate next paragraph the for clarity paragraph is where CRC attempted to say hey we know we can't do this and so that five-year inspection requirement sort of starts right away and we know some properties will not get that initial inspection for four and a half years so why don't we why do you need a a what's under a why can't one be adopted to basically say upon adoption of this bylaw all residential rental properties whether or not their prior resident will need to undergo an initial inspection within five years and then go on why this this this piece a makes it seem like properties will be going backwards I think there's merit to what Lynn's suggestion so b says I'm thinking through things b says five-year inspection requirement within every five-year period each residential rental property shall be inspected unless the dwelling unit is exempt from inspection under the bylaw or subject to an annual or other periodic expense inspection as set forth below so the question I think Lynn is asking is given b the five-year inspection let is a other than a one or even a one is a necessary other than implementation upon adoption and the implementation upon adoption might need to be in the bylaw itself because it needs because a regulation can't override a bylaw requirement absolutely I I think that may be yes is there any way we can look at this side by side it's going to be tough with this I I can do that for if Athena needs help I got it let me just give me a second to get these side by side hang on this is like this one of the sticky points it sounds like it's something you've all wrestled with a lot yeah we we've tried to the part of the sticking point is what goes in the regulations and what goes in the bylaw right because we want the regulations to be more flexible because that the regulations can be more responsive in terms of changing than a bylaw can be something's not working and and so with this inspection frequency we've we've tried to sort of thread that needle between what needs to be in the bylaw and you know set for and what can be more flexible okay so what section did you want to see so it's the right section up I want and yeah that's the correct section so it's one a that we're looking at yeah yeah so one a does that and then in the regulations b one b sets forth the frequency schedule and so maybe b one a of the regulations is not needed other than b one a one which might need to be put into section i one b well that's exempt from it except just you know or the sections we would we could add an i one b or d or something that that talks about implementation you didn't have to yeah like before this principal code official maybe there's a the five year like in the first five years um that i let me think about language but it could essentially be that four clarity paragraph but allows for an actual permit to be issued instead of a conditional permit because it's concerned that you know conditional sounds scary for from a tenant point of view necessarily potentially you're trying to just say this should be c and then c would become d c would become d yes okay so make it separate so i'm not trying to mesh c was yeah okay so we want to say something in c that basically assures people that if they're presently permitted their permit is valid until inspection happens okay well no their permit will not be they'll still need a new permit every year a permit is a one-year thing they'll still retain it so it's not that it's it's that their permit could be a permit not a conditional a permit so so let me try some language yeah this is not going to come well actually we are it well i don't let me try some language you guys can move on to something else we can come back or give me like 30 seconds here you got it go ahead the amount of work that's gone into this is astounding and it's you know it's work that you've all done with staff which is really helpful i think the big issue that we want to make sure is that and that's why it's being in gl is important is that we aren't doing something that in fact lands us in court because we've broken some you know federal or state law you okay john yes i'm trying to find a place where i have good internet okay so let me try this i'm gonna read it athena in the bylaw in the for in the bylaw directly a new see okay all residential rental property that currently has a residential rental permit oh wait sorry at the beginning at the beginning of that start with the phrase upon adoption of this bylaw yeah so upon adoption of this bylaw all residential rental property that currently has a residential rental permit will need to undergo an inspection or i guess it should be shall undergo not yeah shall shall an inspection within five and five is written out and then in parentheses the number years of the effective date of the bylaw period during this transition such residential rental property may be issued a permit instead of a conditional a permit instead of a conditional permit if it is awaiting this required inspection required inspection a required no this i think this is fine but and then go up to um i1a the just one page up the paragraph above that has the that except as provided in section i1b should now read sections i1b and c and i1c but no that's that's why it says okay i1b and c um and then i think what your what's your question athena go ahead mandy i'll ask after i think then in the regulation side of the screen um section a under frequency schedule can be deleted completely including one yeah a yeah including that for clarity purposes and this becomes a okay and then in this part um in the bylaw am i missing capitalizations residential rental property is capitalized or no residential rental property is capitalized conditional permit is capitalized and does residential rental permit um yes and the word permit would also be you're capitalizing anything that's defined i know but i don't know that and in fact i i saw in some of this that conditional permit is not always defined is not always capitalized in the paragraph where we reference conditional permit so that needs a little bit of fixing so permit although we didn't define conditional permit although in the definition section but everything else is so we don't need capitalizations for conditional permit well we've done it both ways on page four of the bylaw well let's choose away let's capitalize anything that's defined so it's not conditional permit is not i don't think is defined in the definitions let me check it is not defined in the definitions that needs to be done no it's it's explained in on page four yeah now i'm seeing that and so right there yeah it's explained there and in that paragraph sometimes it's capitalized and sometimes it's not mid paragraph i i choose to capitalize i would too so the first the third the third line of that at the very end has the word excuse me and then permit goes on okay and then do we do it here so then we go back down to where we were and we capitalize okay now now let's go back to B and see whether 1a makes sense the in the regs yeah we took it out we took it all out and our 1a is right the new 1a yeah he only flagged the old 1a so if it's taken out yeah concern is fixed yeah okay then we're back to looking at just the regulations fabulous clerk of the town council is the paragraph we just added in the yeah bylaw notice yeah i think it would be clear if it says all residential rental permit that has a resident all residential rental property that has a residential rental permit on the date of adoption of this bylaw or this revision or something yeah something like that okay this is still a rescind and replace so is this going to be on the effective date or on the date of because are we going to make this bylaw effective i think it's all residential rental property that has a residential rental permit on the date the council votes to adopt this bylaw how about that and and all i'm saying is when we vote this bylaw are we voting it to be effective immediately are we going to be giving it a different effective so it's always effective two weeks after we adopt no matter what i mean but the default is the effective date is two weeks after the vote so the effective date is different than the vote to adopt i think there was i'd have to look at my report to see if we had a specific effective date in the report from crc we might have april one effective date instead of two weeks later so that it would be or or something that indicated it was for all effective for all renewals you know for permit year i'd have to look at the motion that we had yeah my only understanding is that if we're going to adopt this and we have it and we want it to basically be applicable to the biggest permitting time of the year we want to get it adopted before january first yeah okay 481 i'd have to look the renewals generally start in may and june um right so i like i said i'd have to look at how crc worded it okay um don't we need to do upon the effective date of this bylaw i think it's that i i i don't think it's the date we adopt i think it's the effective date we adopt or how could how could someone be subject to a bylaw that isn't effective yet okay great right um all residential rental property that has a residential permit on the effective date on the effective date of this bylaw shall undergo an inspection within five years of the effective date this bylaw shall under of three times um there's extra the in there too no so i think i i think that's the the first clause upon the effective date of this bylaw can now get deleted that that was the point of my rewording so the the paragraph starts with all residential rental that has a permit on the effective date of the bylaw shall undergo an inspection that that makes sense yeah do we need to say of the bylaw again if we say effective yeah no we do yeah okay oh and we tend to capitalize the word bylaw we tend to i'd love to see a style manual for us well we tend to do this well well it it's not a it's not just bylaw in general it's a specific reference to a specific bylaw i'm trying to be funny yeah and that's a total go l thing right there yeah oh totally i mean this is i don't think anything we've done is inconsistent with go l's submission no it's all been yeah we do have an audience so we're going to have public comment when we finish i know going through this all right so i think that addresses jonathan's comments from the regulation section yeah i think it does too so there's just one more comment in the regulations for him maybe it's easier than this one it is isn't that specific like you're gonna have to yeah so jonathan says are asks the question are you sure you want to add a specific timeframe into this it's not in the bylaw and so it's optional here um so are you can impose the additional requirement by regulation but do you want to um i what's the harm of getting rid of this there isn't one get rid of it sir we you know we tend to write bylaws and forget that somebody's going to be or whatever at regulation somebody's going to be reading it 20 years from now and say well when was 60 days okay are we ready for a motion i think are we or do we have to now wait for go l we are go l i mean i mean fine i don't so if this was this you know if we believe all of these changes and we might want to go through the bylaw changes because jennifer came in halfway through so she can see what what was done there but um if we believe all of these changes are in done because of clarity consistency or actionability these do not need to go back to crc as a procedural matter because we were doing what we were told to do yeah right so jenn would you like to see any amendments there's not a lot or clarity i guess if there's not a lot i don't want to make you go through it is there anything you think i'd want to see i really don't think there any there were no substantive changes i trust you i'll summarize in a second lin had her hand up no no manager was agreeing in the bylaw the person in charge we were moved because of jonathan's comment from the requirement to live in hampton hampshire hampton franklin company and made it to respond um with regard to the property in a timely manner as the attorney suggested um we added some clarifying language regarding short-term rentals and short-term permit exemptions then the biggest change was the one you were here for that we just did when we added a whole section to the bylaw okay thank you sounds good yeah and then another comment was who does the length of inspection or makes that decision and so we clarified that by adding a sentence and those are the changes to the bylaw okay great i'm glad you did the hard work before i got it i need the names of the two are we gonna are we gonna motion for them separately or together say that again lin you want to do them separately as one as i think we can do it as one i'll i'll make the the motion then um second i move to declare the proposed three general bylaw 3.50 residential rental property as amended today and the proposed regulations for general bylaw 3.50 residential rental property as amended today clear consistent and actionable is there a second second second okay well i'll start the only the only thing i would suggest is that we say as amended 1115 2023 yeah not that i got that okay i trusted a scene on that one okay i'm gonna call for a vote jennifer yes bandy hi lin yeah and i'm an i good work good work i have honestly say i didn't think we could do that but i am delighted yeah i'm glad you pushed on it that's good um noticing noticing the presence of members of the public um in attendance i'm going to call for a period of of public comment now at 10 41 am if you'd like to make public comment on issues before the committee please raise your hand seeing no raised hands i'm going to call an end to the public comment period um pat with your permission i'll forward these new drafts to andy and add them to the finance committee packet yes that would be great and also forward it to me if you don't mind okay thank you and mandy joe i just want to end jennifer both we did call friday's meeting of finance as a committee of the whole so if and we did that because of the discussion regarding the library but if we get to this then if either one of you or both of you are there it would be really helpful yeah and i will not be that as well i will not be there i will be traveling that day okay and the meeting is at one o'clock it is but library is going to be the major discussion so this residential rental bylaw and regulation will be on for a first read next monday if possible if it's in and i i would argue that the fee structure does not need to have necessarily two readings unlike the bylaw that does and so if we could start the reading schedule monday even if finance is not done they're only dealing with the fee schedule that's not done with the fee schedule it would help i think it would be beneficial i mandy joe i think that's a good suggestion thank you i you're correct we do not need to do the fee schedule at the same time finance is now i don't even know it arthena you may not know this but we're now actually looking at having a finance committee on the 28th i think it is at one o'clock okay yeah it is 28th at one o'clock for a thing no no i'm just happy there okay and if you can't you know we'll do what we did yesterday okay yeah okay okay um what i'd like to do now is i think uh is to move to the town manager goals there were still some specifics that pam rooney had uh forwarded to us and is there anything else we need to do on that before a draft is given to the council council lin lin and i didn't i didn't think we had a draft ready for the council we we don't that's because we were going to work on it again today then i would like to make an overall general comment and that is consistent with i'm just going to deal with my own personal feelings okay mm-hmm we need to move off of getting into such specificity that this sounds as if we're trying to tell the town manager not just what our goals are but how he has to achieve them it's a fine line and i i just know in writing our own evaluations my own evaluation of the town manager with this level of specificity i would personally tell you that if i were looking for a town manager job and i had to look at these goals i would just say amish no i'm not even remotely interested you your town council is trying to manage me and i we need to find a way that this i i know other counselors are saying this i'm going to say it just for myself when i when i try to do this evaluation it is onerous and when the town manager writes his own self-evaluation it is onerous and how do we move to something that is much more respectful of the fact that you hire good people you let them know what is generally expected and you get out of their way so i'm just that i i i dropped out of the conversation last week or last time we did this partly because i just can't stand the specificity that people want i i find it just not appropriate at this level it there is a way in which i agree with you lin because i feel like there are specifics being put in that we as a council haven't discussed really and that their individual demands and i i think that i think that we are on most instances being too specific i also think we have too many there were if you went through last year's goals for the town manager when he was writing his his self-evaluation he had to address 91 goals and sub goals i don't know anybody that has 91 goals on their performance evaluation it used to be in the hundreds well and we used to rate the sub goals as well and then we said no we're going to stop doing that well that's that's fine for us but how are we and and then you know and i'm the one i know i chose this to be to do this but writing that up in a way that even is readable and makes sense is also onerous so part of me and then mandy part of me wants to just give you the average ratings and say here read what all the councillors said jennifer yeah so i yeah i just find i do find this whole process very fraught and i even put it in my evaluation that so under a certain heading there'll be five subheadings and you can't necessarily give one mark to all five because a lot of progress may have been made in one maybe less than another and then we're not in town hall so we don't necessarily know what pro progress has been made on others so but i so something like the waist taller i think we had to be specific because the town manager said if you want me to make if we wanted him to allocate staff time to it it had to be a town manager goal so that's why we put it in but i also agree with pat that we don't want things in there that we may never as a council have or individual committees heard of before and that's why i reacted to that gateway coming in it was so specific and we'd never discussed it so nicely so it's a happy so that's why i'm struggling with what you know again like somebody may say well waist taller was too specific but the town manager did ask us so basically he was saying there that we as a council have to decide if that's a priority and if it is to make that a goal so is it on us to be more so how do we strike that balance between being specific and general a good question mandy so i i agree with everything um and i wonder if you know we don't have a lot of time but could we potentially create a new document so that this document i would hate to modify this and lose this and present a document that the document that's in the packet now that adds all the specific specificity and adds things that people want in in but also sort of do a save as and then take a hatchet to it um to go to a more general one and present both to the council with a here is a potential so i look at climate action and some of these are more general some are more specific but within climate action there are now um well there are four big ones um we haven't fixed the letters so there were like six um seven small ones last year we've deleted some because they were done but those were really specific things and then we have unnumbered like four other suggestions right look at that we did we did but i i'm asking if you put it up i'm sorry for the purposes of conversation if we were to go the route that uh the the less specificity we could keep number one delete number two um other than you know because that one's fairly specific as to how to meet the climate action and just under climate action you know the delete the um joint jpe formation because that's really specific if we're thinking specific specific versus not um number three is the waste hauler bylaw but maybe it's support the town council in developing and bringing to votes bylaws that further climate action goals or something something that's not specific necessarily to waste hauler itself but you know when we've referred to a bylaw to a committee we expect support for that bylaw development right um and then number five delete all of the a b c d e's and just say take action on you know the carp plans that have been prioritized for 22 23 and 24 period or 22 to 25 period and delete all the other specificity in there and then we had some potential additions of e-bike networks staffing strategies by grants and carp stuff and all um maybe we could add a goal that in short you know but maybe that's the way to to change this up of delete a lot of it that's just one example based on what people said Jennifer yeah that i don't feel comfortable with because i don't you know if we wanted the joint powers agreement which is specific but it's impactful i mean we want that i think or we want waste hauler time to vote i think we have to be specific or i don't think they would happen Lynn um i think that there's ways to i like what Mandy Joe the tendency Mandy are the trend that Mandy Joe was going in and um at the same time i know that e-c-a-c is going to want to find all of the things they want under the carp okay so but i still think it's worth trying now i i i don't necessarily agree with i can't see it but agree with deleting um too um but i think we save this document as it is and let's try what Mandy Joe's suggesting and see whether or not you know Jennifer's already said i think we need to leave to in fine leave to in so we've saved this correct Athena yep it's in the packet with with red lines and yeah word versions okay so now take what Mandy Joe just said and show us the document as if the you know show the unmarked document you may accept all changes yeah no no no just do a simple show just do a simple show review of a simple instead of all markup simple markup yeah it's uh that one that dropped down just simple yeah there we go now taking this so with what i said i'm fine with jpe that was again a suggestion we can leave one two three and then four would be reworded can i hold on she's let me do this so i don't end up making changes take your time you know the carp one would be rewarded to take action on the carp that have been prioritized for fy 22 three and four without any of the subsets i think and then all of the stuff in brackets would be deleted i think okay so okay i'm sorry number four in climate action yes would just be take action on the law on the climate action adaptation resiliency plan that have been prioritized for 24 period pick action on the portions of the climate action right yeah so in other words from so in other words that have been prioritized for 24 that have been prioritized through 2020 fy 2025 maybe yes fy 25 period yeah and then take out all of that and the brackets and then i think take the bracket part out too which was some of the potential things that could be added into this section right now go up to jennifer has a handout before me oh i'm sorry please yeah i'm sorry jenna wasn't everything that was just taken out is part of the priorities the portions okay yeah why can't we say under two i'm sorry i should raise my hand go ahead under no no not to that too go up i go up above under climate action number two just say complete joint powers agreement isn't it entity um jpe formation and cca implementation something like that yep why don't we just say complete implementation of joint powers entity well the joint powers entity is different than right yeah i'm sorry right and what do you want to do to waste hauler so i had suggested instead of waste hauler specific but we can talk about this because i think there's a under the council stuff down below instead of waste hauler you know what's this one say support the town council and developing and bringing to votes bylaws that or you know bylaws that are climate i don't know i don't necessarily think we necessarily need this one changed per se other than if we're trying to go less specific it wouldn't just be waste hauler if in the next two years or a year there's other climate action focused bylaws we would want support for that yet down below in the management goals there's a general support the town council in bylaws referred to committees or something like that it also seems that you could say to um let me see take necessary steps towards um and support the town council and developing bylaws blah blah like a waste hauler bylaw so you're referencing it but you're not going into details and things like that and you're setting the stage for more than one kind of bylaw and then i guess the other question jennifer you're next i'm sorry oh me well i'm going to advocate for keeping waste hauler in it's moved really slowly even being in there i think it will disappear if we take it out and so we could say waste hauler and others but since you were asked to put it in and we're in process i think it's not sending i mean you know we're still going to see if it's feasible but it's not i would not be able to support it coming out i'm not saying having it come out but i think that the general trend here is that there are going to be other bylaws like waste hauler and other bylaws why i don't think it should be i mean it's in process the town manager said we had to specifically tell him we wanted him you know we're we're in process i don't think we should i i think i don't think i wouldn't be able to support saying we're just saying well you can we're okay looking at bylaws that help get us to our climate action goals and i agree with you there but i don't believe that i think it should say that bylaws first like and then we're referencing the waste hauler and we're saying you're still working on this you know i you know maybe that's too i'm going to go to uh unless you have a reason including yeah so what about and bringing to a vote climate action focused bylaws including a waste hauler bylaw period and getting rid of the description of what that waste hauler bylaw i know the description is generally desired and all um but if we're trying to that description really does also restrict what the waste hauler bylaw has to be and then yeah oh god jennifer how'd that feel what mandy just it doesn't feel good why yeah because i i think what's in there it to me it waters it down too much i mean i don't know that was in there for this year we're still working on it i think it i think this should stay there just like we mostly left the joint powers entity in the community choice aggregation because that's in process but we're not saying that's feasible and meets the goal you know we're we're if a bylaw is created that's not feasible it's not going to pass if conditions come forward to the council that make a waste hauler bylaw not good for the community i'm not saying that okay i'm not saying that that then we would vote against it i'm going to jump to lin and we'll come back because i want to shorten it even more i want to say support the passage of climate action focused bylaws and in parentheses eg such as the waste hauler bylaw the proposed waste hauler change what proposed changes to the waste hauler bylaw and what about proposed changes to the solar bylaw that's going to be coming to us what about that sounds good no it doesn't so what why passage instead of development yeah because because passage is anything about passage that's the 13 of us you can say support the development development and passage i think the issue is that i these i'm trying to also respect the fact that bylaws can originate in other places than the council yeah so the passage is a problem to me unless we're willing to add passage into the housing affordability bylaw support work right for the passage of bylaw zoning bylaws that increase housing types in town um which i haven't feel Jennifer might not so are we people can afford them it i think part of the problem is that most of us want some kind of waste hauler bylaw so we're going you know it's not up to paul to create passage or support passage his job is to make sure that the staff is working with the council that people are reached out to the and things like that not i don't know okay so say so support the development of climate action focused bylaws does that get does that get it at that piece of it okay uh the proposed changes to the waste hauler bylaw comma if it's just one and it doesn't get a comma right well okay no i think i think lin was was putting a comma after climate action focused bylaws and getting rid of the e g oh right lin uh that's fine comma solar bylaw comma and and etc i mean i i just think about this year well and and others including might propose or something or others that might be proposed i don't know including we could say including including potential bylaw other potential bylaws support and other potential bylaws yeah okay jennifer yeah i i get the feeling we're moving away from wanting to put this in no the only so with the waste hauler bylaw who is like integral to it the reason we wanted to revise the waste hauler the process now is so it includes compost pickup universal compost pickup that's important to our climate action goals and that the fee structure incentivize reducing waste so that's why the pay is you throw is in there right but they don't have to be listed as what what if we what if we list them just including the proposed changes to the waste hauler bylaw to to offer to offer universal curbside compost pickup and pay as you throw fee structure um that's offer they're in the bylaw right so why why do they have to be listed here so so i don't believe they do but jennifer does and i'm trying to seek a solution that that it's us moves us forward yeah that's a lot of yep go ahead i'm not going to say what i was going to so i think it would say including the proposed changes to the waste hauler bylaw that include universal curbside or include universal curbside compost pickup and pay as you throw feed structure does that feel okay jennifer um yes and i want to also just clarify we're sending to the council both versions yes right so they can also decide right and then before we go after you're done jennifer i i just want to say that's it i just want to clarify that so we're not making a final we're just showing the council that's right so on the 20th we have on the council agenda which we haven't finalized yet but we have we have planned for the council agenda to include uh an initial discussion and then feedback will go to gl so the this isn't the final presentation the final report from gl isn't on november 20 there's a feedback and then and then a discussion and potential vote on december 4 after gl revises them again based on the council feedback on the 20th this is for the goals is that what you're talking about yeah goals yes okay after the word structure put comma and adoption of other potential bylaws such as the solar bylaw adoption's a problem yeah it is a problem and development or whatever what no i think you just have to say solar bylaw and other potential bylaws yeah okay except here's the problem it says support the development coming up including proposed changes yeah see that's and it's it's the proposed changes including the waste hauler bylaw that includes universal some some so instead of proposed changes too including the waste hauler bylaw then okay that helps but that does it for me then thank you jennifer i'm sorry i'm i'm muting yes that's fine and again this is you know i'm happy that it's going to go to the full council for a discussion yeah now just for the sake of discussion athena show this now with as if with all the markup showing this is what we've done and this is why i like what we're doing i like shortening this and getting it i like it so what i'm expecting will be in the council packet for monday as a red line version of what was in the packet at gol today and then a clean version of what gol's talking about now is that what everyone's expecting so in other words given that it's now 1109 we're only going to show them what we do climate action well i think we can see if we can get through the other ones uh let's see how much we can let's just see how much we can right some of these are less specific than others anyway right but that's what you're expecting to present that was my question is yes yes okay thank you economic vitality oh wait no sorry i was looking at the wrong one yeah we're at community health so i think we could say continue implementation and assessment of the community responder blah blah crash department period or whatever explore options for a youth empowerment center or programming in particular uh doing i i think that one could be explore options for youth empowerment center um and or programming um i agree and leave off incorporate input from youth because that would although i like that i'm still and i think it has to happen i don't know if it's necessary but we were just developing programming here because the center itself was under a different item now so i would end it with the word empowerment explore options for youth impact for a youth development programming for youth empowerment and then take out this bracket yeah under four i it's automatic that we appoint members so we can take out that yeah it's not nothing no nice and short gang keep going jennifer is this acceptable um yes but i yeah i'm still not personally that comfortable with the um climate action but oh oh yeah we're just going to try to go through some of these to show what we're interested in doing the economic vitality in some sense it hurts me to remove number two but i think number two whether it was explore the feasibility of which was the prior one or fund that is extremely specific on how to ensure the present and future economic health right so it might need to go completely so basically it would be one and three would become two three would become two the and before three can get deleted and we had said specific specificity on number two but but again right like and just say facility hang on lin athena were you going to say something was that you before lin i'm sorry okay go ahead and i'm i'd say together with the council can go and just um capitalize facilitate it can i just say in three um it how he does it is not the issue it's do we um yeah so the rfp is out um for this project hmm this is why it was in there in a way because the rfp took two years to get out but the rfp is out and they're reviewing the responses now um so the question is do we even need that other than um potentially a number two increase in support economic development throughout town again going with including form-based zoning or something in number two and then three could then then potentially be deleted three is vague but i think it needs to be there and i think it needs to be vague for the time being pat jennifer stanza i'm sorry i was rooting jennifer i apologize no i just wanted to ask again so um just to so for all of this the council will be able to see the track changes yes okay i thought you wanted the track changes of the other version and a clean version of this one i think it would be good to have a tract of both versions of the clean of this one okay so we're on housing affordability yeah there's like eight of these the ands in the wrong spot but we'll see what we keep let's put it there for now yeah okay whoo so yeah how much of this is in the comprehensive housing policy because if it's if it's there then do we need yeah so if we do it we would have to say and implement so so the comprehensive housing the policy says here's where our goals should be there's no required implementation of it per se right so we would have to add the word implement so the ones that would be covered under the goals um number one number three four potentially five potentially um eight depending on the strategies you're talking about i thought the comprehensive housing policy went to crc with the town manager for implementation yeah right yeah so so isn't that already there the implementation for the as a referral okay so did you want me to sorry take things out i'm looking at number five and propose measures to lower rents or address rental costs what power does the town have we can't do rent control what power does the town have to regulate rent um it just doesn't make any sense to me it would be great jennifer i'm just one was that um did that come about so that the did it did it have to do with the council supporting state initiatives that's the only thing i can think it was it did it did and they just withdrew they just stopped the effort yeah i know i just read that very upset so not surprising though to go back to a second mandy oh jennifer put her hand go ahead mandy and then go ahead i'd let mandy joe go because maybe she's got a way of combining some of these i'm just wondering if part of the issue has been at least my frustration with all of this has been we have a policy but a lot of the focus on implementation of the policy is solely on supporting projects that do some of the policy it's not about planning for the future and proposing proposing policy changes regulation changes zoning bylaw non-zoning bylaw changes that would facilitate better implement better or increased projects that would then am i getting my point across clear there's two parts to implementing the comprehensive housing policy there's the the sort of development of actual housing right which is one part and the council doesn't really have much to say about the actual development of housing and the town has limited to say other than supporting applications um and then there's the revising our own regulations bylaws and policies themselves to ensure that we are meeting the comprehensive housing policy goals similar to the climate action goals right there's the the actual initiatives but then there's the looking at our own policies and saying what is structurally stopping us from meeting these goals and what do we have to do structurally to change that we can do that with our racial equity right what is a structural issue and i feel like the manager has focused not on only the building of stuff and not the fixing of the structural issues and that's where the council needs help and how do we then write this to address both of those when i'm going to suggest that we not try to do this one today number one the other thing i want to just put out there and that is the reason i don't think we can do this today and i'm not even sure we can do it at the council is the council does not have a vision that people that all counselors have bought into and so part of me wants to step back when we deal with this one and focus on something that's broader than just saying do this do that do it this right so i'm going to suggest that we just note that we did not do this one now and go on to major capital investments you can begin to see within this the problems of specifics and how they're they represent different people's philosophy or desires and that somehow as a council we need to come together even though those decisions haven't been made by the full council okay you're sliding this up Athena major capital i would just say complete the elementary school building work that votes to that that support the completion of the new of the elementary school building of the new elementary school building it's a one and then two would simply john's library support yeah the john's library the support the library committee building committee use i started putting this in the first sentence and then you said it's on our answer except for the completion of the new elementary school building period well oh yeah let me call support the renovation and expansion of the john's library jennifer has a hand up jennifer go ahead i'm sorry i would just think we'd say what we're saying is we want the town manager to devote staff time to supporting the john's library building committee i don't think we have to get into you know how what they're doing we just want them to support the committee and what they're doing is the i mean just like with the waste taller we do want to get specific we want to yeah i mean the i i actually agree right support the elementary school building committee support the john's library building committee okay all right we'll know after monday whether or not we're still there um number three is interesting to me because yeah three and four are specific but right and haven't been done i leave them i believe we can move forward there's work been done on it i'm not yeah jennifer but how do we write it that was residual i mean i would almost leave three and four as it is because there's not building committees for them yet and so we have to for the purposes of this and moving forward i would leave three and four and five as it is and then deal with this this what would be a number six regarding the brackets if we want to suggest something right i want to say um develop a multi-year plan for the repair and replacement of roads and sidewalks uh jennifer's hand is up jennifer i think you should just jump in yeah go ahead because i keep waiting jennifer and then i forget no i'm getting back to the dwp so i think we discussed this with paul at the last jol meeting you know i asked if we if it was too specific and that he seemed to say it wasn't if we wanted the town to explore you know perhaps joining forces with the neighboring town like hadley on a shared dpw facility so would we want to add that or i i believe it's the way it is um i personally would leave it the way it is yeah because for me it feels embedded if you're presenting a financing plan some of it might be this joint joining with other communities um and same with location exactly yeah so athena tell me what to change so the and before seven needs deleted but now we've put in eight different things these were all clauses that were in the bracket oh i know i know you did it through clauses and i would get rid of eight and put and before seven yeah i'll save my comments about number six and seven for the council meeting but yeah it is 11 28 we have one more policy and should we see if we can get through it i have a question about number two i know we have it for crest but crest seems to be sort of halfway through being implemented and create you know sort of but the division of the department but de i seems a little more settled right in my mind and so it doesn't even belong in here anymore yeah any objection to that no okay i wonder when the town council is going to have a racial equity training um for the and needs to be deleted before three and added to before four then so i would just say other options to the town council employees and members of the department and just take out that whole parentheses yeah employees are members of a department no members of the public i think legs and members of the public yeah which is already there after the thing but yeah so now we take all that out oh all the way to the colon all the way to the colon now yeah that's it wait a second i really propose we present this to the council as an option so if we agreed we're going to show four different things one is what we worked on before and the red lines and then this and the red lines yeah and and this would we haven't done the management goals but this one for presentation purposes would show what we might do with the management goals or some of them some of them are more extensive than others um and i just have to say given given everything else that could be on the agenda be prepared for this not us not getting to this that's um understandable then if the council didn't get to it then it would be helpful to um ask counselors to send feedback to go well yeah yes are we done i think so is there any questions who are concerns that anybody wants to state jennifer yeah i'm not i i don't think this matters in terms of the outcome of the vote so i may just abstain just because i'm not totally comfortable with the climate action there's no no votes right out there i mean i don't want to vote no but i think there are no votes right now oh we're not going to vote to refer it to the council yeah not yet oh okay you just made my life a lot easier okay thank you it's for feedback on monday and then um gel will have another look on the 29th and then present their final report recommendation on december 4 jennifer your hands up again i missed it often enough so no i it's residual okay are there any is there any last comment or anything that anybody wants to make um we have carryover on the agenda that's the only thing i think we didn't talk about yeah yeah and um do people have five or ten minutes more and um sure i think that's much more than that but i really think we have to make a decision about bylaws i mean about about our um the rules the rules are procedure whether we're going to try to bring it forward or not and we voted the committee voted a first set we did you voted on the changes that i proposed and i i think there were a couple of other changes in there that's that's already been um recommended to the council and then you're going to go and do more but the committee made a recommendation on those changes i don't remember that or neither i keep moving it from council packet to council packet because let me see so this this was specific to the changes you were recommended by gel 927 23 so these were the changes that i had proposed well went through those and then the the conversation was that you'd go back and look at the other changes but those ones were voted by the committee recommended by the committee okay we should do those either the 20th or the 4th of december at the council and then i think what would be really helpful is and it might be in today's packet just uh get them done so that whatever we pass forward to the new council we can see something that has whatever is adopted then then what we've been talking about oh i know it's too much Athena um but but yeah i think i think next meeting on the 29th we have to spend some time with rules to figure out what we're going to pass forward on to the next council what we're going to ask this council to vote on probably the 18th of december right so but i thought we had to read rules twice no it's a two-thirds vote now oh okay thank you so okay so we're not giving anything to the council right now on rules we're waiting till we meet on the 29th yes that's our next meeting yeah that's good okay and Athena i might want to set up a meeting with you to just go over stuff make sure that that does that make sense or is that just wasting your time okay what else uh what has to be carried over yeah let's get there quickly it looks like rental registration is ready that's done uh street lights the street lights doesn't carry over yep um the um to charge the abrc charge nuisance carry over nuisance bylaw um waste waste hauler thank you look what i thought the um the zba vacancy um i mean finance committee i'm sorry that's not is like really that's not really here yet and it's not a it's not a motion it would go into on automatic carryovers it would go into other things that need done okay whatever that list is right there's like four point list so we have street lights the abrc charge nuisance bylaw waste hiler bylaw non-voting finance committee member vacancy so that should be on any rules of procedure we don't get to get to oh i'm finished rules well i thought at one point we thought about presenting the whole schmuggie and then giving it to the new council um that's what i think we're gonna do we're gonna try to vote on it but if there's anything left over we want to mention where we didn't finish yeah i think the goal was to get this council to vote on as much as it could that we were done with or agreed to and then hand the rest off to the new council yep but not hand them but but have a vote in this council for everything we've been working on as gol to the extent we're ready it's ready right and i think there's a bunch there that might be ready we just we're trying to figure out how far we could get before we voted a recommend adopt right that would be the case if i look like i'm packing up it's because i am yeah pat are you pat are you gonna ask that any members help write sections of the memo or uh are you gonna draft memo jennifer go ahead raise your hand and then mandy yeah no i mean i just i had offered to help so pat didn't have to carry over you if can we do that or would we do each do sections so it's not violating open meeting law right so if everyone works on sections before the next meeting on the 29th um then the committee can review them all together on the 29th i would recommend looking at my draft for crc yeah i was gonna do that set up the evan used for tso two years ago i used for crc two years ago and george used for gol two years ago or you can just find george's old one it's it's actually more basic i was surprised when i went back to it it's much more basic than you probably think it is it really is just a list of things okay categories and and sometimes a summary of the discussion like tso had you know here are the things that we wanted the next tso to consider when you when you look at that but most of them are they haven't come to gol yet so it should be relatively easy pat yeah and i think there is a carryover because it's gone to the town manager there are bylaws from the that are still being looked at uh that were recommended for change so that's just that that would be in like section four it's not a formal carryover but it would be items to keep track of or whatever that section and then i'm always and then somebody might want to spend a little time with um anika and anna for tso yeah i'm i'm working with them on that yeah because we got two people there who've never done this yep i know so um is jennifer are you doing a first draft are you doing sections let's just quickly figure out who's doing what i mean if you assign me sections or tell me pat this is i have to i have to look at it and then yeah pat you just tell me what you want me to do yeah and i'll and we'll when i ask you i will make sure that athena you know what section she's working on and we can figure out a date to get them to uh so we can look at so i can make a final draft for the 29th does that make sense anybody else anything else so okay i'm gonna uh adjourn the meeting of uh gl at 11 40 am thank you for staying the extra few minutes and particularly jennifer because you're away that's fine no thank you you got a lot done we did excellent you did bye see you later kids