 It was a little boy sitting on Welcome to Going Deeper. I'm Marcy Sklove and I am sitting with Ani Tuzman. We're in our second part of our interview. Welcome back, Ani. Thank you, Marcy. Yeah, and Ani has written this amazing novel which we will show you in more detail called The Tremble of Love. And it is a novel, it's fiction, about this really incredible mystic called Baal Shem Tov. And I want to, you know, I want to hear, we have the whole half hour to talk about the book and different aspects. So I'd like to start with how did it come to be that you wrote about the Baal Shem Tov? That's my first question. And then I have some questions about these characters who are so alive. And what is that I haven't ever written something like, I mean this is a big novel. And I've never written something like that, but how do you contain all of them and where do they live? And all of those questions, the image I have of them being on your, you know, maybe this tall, on your desk, no. Okay, so start with the first one. How did this start? So it started long before the writing started. So, and there's a connection to our first part of our interview. But again, in broader, simpler strokes, my parents, as I had said before, were survivors of the Holocaust. And along the way, and I went as a child after experiences of a great deal of discrimination and even abuse in a public school as the only Jew, my parents put me in a Yeshiva for a few years, which is for those that might not know, is we had Hebrew studies and prayer all morning and secular studies in the afternoon. We were in school from eight till four and we studied and I learned there, I heard about this rabbi, the Baal Shem Tov, which means it can mean the good master of the name or the master of the good name. Oh, interesting. It's because of the way Hebrew has modifiers, it can mean both. Sure, that's cool. My life at home and everything I knew connected to Eastern Europe and my parents' background was shrouded in sorrow. And I used to think flowers didn't grow in Poland as a child. It was so, and the sky was always gray. And then I find out I hear about this rabbi from that part of the world who danced with joy and who also who saw everybody as equal and equally to be valued. And everything I heard about him matched both my own deepest sense of life, which I kept pretty secret because my parents' points of view understandably were very different and they thought to think like that was dangerous. Okay. And also it just gave me so much joy to think someone like this had existed. So along the way a book was translated, which I had read so many times that I had bound with rubber bands. And it was the only book in English about the Baal Shem Tov, Shiveha Beshtor. The translation is, well, tales, they were legends and tales of the Baal Shem Tov. One day, again, a long story shorter, and I've written about it on my blog, The Call to Write the Tramble of Love. I just, that book was as if it were pulsating and I picked it up and began to look at it more. This was decades after, decades later, children later. Yeah. And then shortly thereafter I experienced an inner call, which felt, it felt like the Baal Shem Tov from within. However people choose to interpret such an experience, it was a call. And I've written more, I won't go into the whole detail. Well, no. The first thing I said was yes. I felt the call, I knew it wasn't an historical study, I knew it was a novel. And I said yes. And then I said, oh, but they're more famous people, and this inner dialogue ensued, which was profound. One, and this ties to the first, I will just say, our first section, was I was given the reasons why it was me. And one of them was that I need, well, I'm reluctant to say it sounds unhumble, but what I heard was I need a mystic. And what I knew right away was that it was connected to my love of nature, which he immersed himself in nature. And I heard other things. I need someone who knows what it is to have a living master. Yeah, yeah. And I had no idea how this would happen. I thought it was, I argued for somebody more known on the literary scene, if this was to come forth, but the discussion was done. And a while later, I realized in the, I think it's in the Torah where it says, naa sevinishma, the Jewish people are, it's a description. We'll do it, now explain. And I realized that my yes, my instant yes, no clueless as to how, and later arguing, was a naa sevinishma. Of course I'll do it now, you know, and let me explain why I might not be the best choice. Sure, sure. But what a gift. Oh my gosh, what a gift to you, what a gift to the world. This book is so amazingly, yeah. I also, I just want to quickly make reference. I did an interview with Penny Gill, do you know Penny Gill? Yes. Who channels manjushri. And it's great to suggest, like, however anyone wants to interpret this, which I totally love the openness and, you know, sort of acceptance of however it gets understood. But I also am very much aware of what that looks like, that sense of being connected to someone from another time, just a kind of energy that speaks. There's some mysterious way that you know you're having a conversation, but there are no words. All of that is really, I feel close to that. And I did not talk about that. The book took over 20 years to research and write with many life events stopping me. And I did not tell that story. And then I was moved one day, it was time to share it. Okay, so let's get to the characters. Because how does that, how does that happen? So I did a lot of research because I needed to know the period, I needed to know everything I could learn. The Balsam Tov did not write books and nothing was written in his lifetime. So I had all these legends and once I had a sense of, I needed to know about Eastern Europe and I needed to know, I needed to know so much. When someone rests her hands, what's the cloth? What's the floor? Is it packed dirt? So everything. And at the time Wikipedia, all that didn't exist. I wrote about, I remember counting, I had 111, I think books out of the UMass Tower Library to get all these pieces. In any case, once I had a sense of the place, I started to, I already had been taking long walks, long walks, hours and hours in the woods. And I began to walk with various incarnations of tape recorders over the years. So to Walkman's on up to iPhone apps. And I would record what I saw. And I would then go home and transcribe and write, let me back up for a minute, while I was doing research, I would feel there's a scene here or there's a, so I would have some ideas. And there is a story of the Balsam Tov legend. So I knew a trajectory that I would follow. But then I began to, like the herbalist we see in the first chapter, I just, I, what I would do is I knew he knew who taught him, who taught him to read, who taught him. And some of it, it's a blend of invention and intuition or seeing. And there would be times where, for example, somebody would approach to ask a profound question, like, if you're such a great healer, this is much later in the book, and I promise no spoilers. Someone would say, how come you couldn't heal so-and-so? And I wouldn't know, I would wait for the answer just like whomever had asked him would wait. And I would walk and walk sometimes for two or three hours with the, and then feel him about to answer, turn on the tape recorder, and receive the answer. I don't know that I've ever said this before in this way, as Direct really said what went on. And this would happen again and again. Then other times I would be walking and creating the scene. And, but for example, once I was walking and I knew this was the last time two people would be seeing each other. I didn't know right away which one of them, because one of them would die. I didn't know which one would die. And then I apprehended. And I stopped the tape recorder. I'd been writing the scene. I saw one, I saw them embrace. I saw who was going to die. I didn't know yet just how it would unfold. And I cried. I grieved for her. I did later again as I wrote the scene. But this would keep happening. So what an amazing experience. And sometimes it would be when I was transcribing that things would come. I literally felt that I spent a lot of the time kind of with this opening at the crown of my head. And things would just, and I needed to do whatever I needed to do to be out of the way. But I was also the instrument. It's very hard to describe. I read the book over and over and it's still new to me. And yet I can remember crafting scenes. And yet it's both. So it's hard to describe. Because there's also a skillfulness of, you know, that this has to make sense. So you're having all of this kind of intuition and all of the different aspects of the kind of mystical piece. But there has to be sort of a linear progression and people have to make sense when they come and go. And related to that, I have a service here to my readers. So I have to have a story and a storyline that makes them want to turn pages. Because if not, now, again, I've probably said this along the way, there were 850 pages at some point. Oh my gosh. And so there, in fact, I thought, recently I thought it might be interesting to share some of what was taken out some point. And now there's about 500. I'm looking to see. Yeah. Without the glossaries and etc. Right, 518 I think. Yeah. And so that's an important, important service to respect to my readers. That it has to cohere. It has to be a story. But not just a plot-driven story. No, no, no. I had one editor who wanted me to take out all sorts of scenes that I sort of call them the vertical. The deeply going inside meditative scene. And sort of to move it faster. Oh, I see. And some I did, but there would be no book for me without those. Right, right, right. This is all totally resonating because, as you know, my husband is writing this book and it also has some elements of being channeled and has some of those same problems that you're talking about, you know, the struggle between the publisher or the editor and you and your, you know. And all the characters and what they want to say about it. Right, right. Okay, so why don't we hear a couple of, you know, examples, short examples from the book that might help us know like what were some of the... I have a few very short, they're just their quotes or excerpts, you know, from, let's see. And you can share that. And these I've made into graphics and I'm going to do it. And I'll be sharing some of them. Yeah, on your website, but also we'll show them. Wonderful, that's wonderful. So here's one that, again, for those that have seen our first part one, this connects my own life experience and so this is the Bassem Tov speaking and that's enough to know. I'll just say he's been questioned about how he can, in the face of some very difficult situations and abuses of power, how he can continue and have faith and joy. And he says, I faced the human capacity for cruelty and destruction at the same time. I experienced the inherent desire of life to endure and flourish. Perhaps this is what a soul is. A spark of pure impulse to live and thrive. Nonetheless, we have to choose again and again. A man can close his eyes and only perceive darkness. A woman can close her heart and only know hatred and terror. Or we can choose to focus on the light and increase it. This choice is at the heart of being human. And it connects also with that story you told in part one about this little girl who was a bully in your school and even though she was so awful to you, you saw a spark of light in her. So, you know, it's so, when I hear you read this, it's like, wow, the Baal Shem Tov is so wise. But you wrote it. So it's like Ani is coming through the Baal Shem Tov the same way the Baal Shem Tov is coming through Ani. That's so cool. Wow. So there is like a dark part that I wanted to ask you about because I'm sure this is historical and it really bummed me out, which was this Shabtai Tzvi. False Messiah Shabtai Tzvi. And they were so awful. So what, they were Jewish? Who are they? It was a big movement. I won't give a history lesson. But you know, everything also in its context and dare I say, we're facing some things in our time now and one wonders how can people follow flawed leaders? So there had been massacres, huge. I never can say the name right. The narrator of the audio book who's Polish-born says it beautifully, but Chiemnicki massacres that happened in Eastern Europe. And terrible programs, terrible devastation. Well, there's a belief about the Messiah coming after the apocalypse. So this man rises up, Shabtai Tzvi, who we now again, we didn't have the words and I explore this in the book. He was probably manic depressive. He would have these states of exultation and despair. But there was a prophet who told him that he was the Messiah. He was the one everyone was waiting for. And in his states of mania, and I guess the legend is, or not legend, I think there's some history. He rode a white horse. And so people followed him. Now this isn't in the time period of the book. It's preceding the book, but there's someone who does come into the book who says he's the reincarnation, Jacob Frank, of this false Messiah. And all along as it says there's a passage where it says that the embers remained. So even though Shabtai Tzvi winds up converting to save his skin, to Islam, and people are devastated, but the following was enormous at the time. And he was charismatic when he was in a certain state. So that's referenced in the book because the Sabatean cells, as they were called, remained and went underground. And so here we are, Sabatean was 1660, so here we are 50, 60 years later, little more, and then we're seeing the Sabatean embers being flamed. And also it was a real twisting of Kabbalistic teachings. Kabbalistic teachings were coming forward more in the lineage heritage, not lineage, but the heritage. The Baal Shem Tov is in the lineage of Haari, the Kabbalistic master of Luria who lived in the 1500s. But there was a twisting of what Luria taught, which is that one finds sparks of love and holiness hidden. That's a simplification. But at works it's a simplification. And so the Baal Shem Tov, of course, taught this. And we can find that love everywhere. And we can work within ourselves to find it, to release it with others. But the false messiah and Jacob Frank, this said, oh, let's, we find it in evil. So the long answer to your question is the messiah, you know, the end of the world is only going to come when we've completely turned this reality upside down. So there's horrible immorality, sexuality, sending one's daughters out to be prostitutes in the streets, all sorts of craziness, crazy revelry in the name of Kabbalah and in the name of bringing, you know, the end of time sooner. And there were people who were willing to do their sorrow and their desperation and their longing for the end times and the messiah to believe. And the Baal Shem Tov, as you see in the book, is accused by some of being a sabbatein. How dare you dance with the Torah and what's all this ecstasy? And so it's a very interesting tension in the book. And what does it really mean to find beauty and love in darkness? And what does it mean to live that? And so that's all explored. And it can be so brought into the modern times. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. In fact, if it's okay, this is so relevant. So there's a man, a rabbi, who's come to the Baal Shem Tov deeply concerned about the aberrations, things that are going on and flawed leadership. And the Baal Shem Tov responds, this is just a little piece. And he says to this rabbi, I'm not counseling passivity or indifference. I'm counseling you to stand rooted in the truth you wish to protect rather than bent over by fear. I urge you to strengthen your faith while remaining vigilant. How, Rebbe, instead of focusing on the misuse of power, employ your vigilance to go deeper into yourself to find your true power. And it's amazingly relevant. So relevant. Yeah, I recently heard an audio kind of conversation between Rabbi Ingbar, who taught this Kabbalah class and this other man whose name I'm not going to remember, this kind of a teacher said, this was right after the election. And he said, we have to up our practice. Period. That's what we have to do. We have to work really, really hard. Yes, exactly. And it seems so disjointed for some kinds of people thinking like, no, we have to get in the streets. We have to fight. We have to protest. But this is the same thing, you know. And yes, and the Baal Shantov was an activist. Sure. And the other thing that's fascinating is I said the book took a long time and there were some very major life events that caused me to wait. The book finally emerged a month after the election in 2016. And it blew me away because in my mind it should have been sooner. You know, there were all these... But when I saw and then I remembered the original call and knowing that that these teachings they were a blessing at this time. And there are others that are coming for it. Sure. Penny Gill's work you mentioned. And this was one of them. And that the timing was... And people, many people read the book on the heels of the election and were heartened and wrote about that. And so that was pretty remarkable too because it's uncanny. Here we are back in the 1700s. Right. How much correspondence there is in the book to our times now. Yeah. Wow. The gods are kind of laughing as they do this play, right? This play of timing. It's amazing. So I... We have like a few minutes left and I just... I kind of wanted to ask you what you'd like to add. I mean, not to totally put you on the spot, but is there something that we haven't yet touched or something about the book or something else that touches you to talk about? Just that I hope those who are stirred or called or curious even will receive the gift that comes through the vessel of this book. It feels to me like, and I say this with gratitude, I can't even... It's immense. It feels this is a book and it's a vessel. And we know also that image of the vessel in Kabbalah, we totally loved hearing that the vessel must break and it's in the repair of the vessel that it gets stronger. And the vessel can hold the shards of light better after it's broken. So yeah, I love that image of a vessel and it is definitely that. And so that if it can touch hearts, the other thing just to mention is the theme of grief it's certainly not the only but that is, and so just as some people have written me who've lost beloveds and have talked about how the book has affected their hearts and their experiences of grieving and so to mention that as well. Nice, sure. And people can get a good taste on the website of Chapter 1. Yeah, yeah. And it's Dance of the Letters. It can be found by Trimble of Love, The Trimble of Love. It's Anituzman.com but it can be found in any number of ways but there is an audiobook sample and a Chapter 1 sample and they're nice tastes too. Good, good. Ani, thank you so much for coming. Thank you Marcy. Really appreciate it. Thank you. And thank you all for watching the show. If you are a local person and want to contribute to Amherst Media to help them support these kinds of local community shows that would be awesome. And for now I'll say goodbye. Thank you. Thank you.