 Hello everyone and welcome to this I'd Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and producer of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today I am interviewing Cain Burlinger. Cain is an old school Leatherman and I'm very honored to be able to have him part of the chat series. Hi Cain. Hi Doug. All right. When I was preparing for this, when we were both preparing for this interview, I learned that you are one of the most celebrated leaders in the Leather community. Why do people say that about you? Probably because I've been around a long while. And that's usually the whole, some of it is that you just have to be there. You know, and I was there a lot when there was, when we were in our heyday and we had events and we had runs and there were very few people of color present. And usually I was the only one there. Probably because I liked the attention. Nothing wrong with that. Well, being one person of color and feeling fulfilling so many people's dark fantasies. It was almost a given. Dark fantasies? Well, that'll be covered later in the interview. All right, that's fine. Doug, do you see yourself as a community leader? I felt myself placed in that position because people do ask me a lot of questions about the community. At the time it was a lot of questions about, about race in the community. Because as I said that because there were so few of us in the community. People that wanted to know more or ask questions that they didn't feel comfortable about. And they felt comfortable around me. So they would come to me and ask me questions, like a certain events, people will be into race play at the time. And for some reason they were, they were kind of seek me out. I don't know whether it was, some of it was just to inform me this was going on. Or that to ask my approval. I don't think it was for invitations because they never got any. But a lot of people asked me my feelings on the subject, which led to my writing of my book Black Men and Leather and why you see them. Because so many of those questions were being asked of me. So I was kind of placed in that role. And then there were a lot of panels coming out at the time. And I think there were probably more, more events then also. I mean, because of the pandemic and everything, but even prior to that, I think the meetings were going down a little. Because when the internet started, there was less, it was all done online. It was no longer the events, the gatherings and stuff where you could get panels together and talk to people. You know, we're doing it now on Zoom these days. But then we actually got people together and they felt better about asking questions and things that they wanted to know. And then they were curious. I think a lot of that's coming back now. You used an interesting word a moment ago. You used the word approval. Why were people asking for your approval? For some reason that they had political correctness come out. And people weren't always comfortable using which words. Well, you sing a lot of that now. Especially with all the new speak and all the new dialogue and people don't know what to say now. If you're running into transgender people, you don't know whether to use the term him, her, his, whatever. I'm still at odds because I'm still speaking. You know, like I'm back in 76, you know, and all the new kids are, you know, right. And I ended up unintentionally offending people because I just simply don't know. I'm used to concerning, but I figure at my age now I can just chalk it up to being cute. My grandpa at the Thanksgiving table, you know. Before we go too far though, I'd like to go back to sort of the starting point of this. You're originally from Ohio. So am I. Tell me a little bit about how you emerged into the community coming out as a gay man coming out into the King community. What did that start for you? Okay. Coming out was. I would say I don't think I get officially came word depends on what you mean by coming out. When I was a young young guy in New York growing up in New York because we moved from Ohio to New York. I was about nine or 10. And as I got further on. New York was different than a lot different. And one of the things that were different were the public washrooms. Where it's 20 20 cent token would take you on the subway and you can ride all up and downtown. Well, while doing that, you discovered that that dime that went in there opened up doors to to sexual playgrounds. That became later baths backgrounds and stuff. And you would say my coming out would have been there. Because there was the private places. There was where everybody was using was using these public facilities as play spaces. You could do a whole story and a whole book just not alone. And eventually that spilled over into my school. Now, where I went to be with Clinton, which was an all boys school at the time. And it just kind of happened. There was no great epiphany or anything. I mean, there are always incidents and the public washrooms and the back stairs of schools and it's all those students who would be experimenting like you and in the gym room and this would happen. And there were just there are stories I'm wondering whether I should tell or not. We're going to edit this later, right? Yes. I'd love to know how did you even know about these public washrooms? It was just by accident. We lived in White Plains. I think my school was in White Plains. I think it was so many years ago. Anyway, I took the subway. I had to take the subway there. And no doubt, innocently a little boy had my dime. I had to use the facilities and as I say, the rest is history. And this went on for many, many years until one day some public citizens said we should not pay those extra dimes because we're paying the fare. So we should have use the facilities. But those dimes are paying for the maintenance. When those times stop coming, the maintenance stop coming. And it's now like, you know, the home of God knows what. So you don't see them in action anymore. So like the way of the dodo and all the venues, they just kind of passed on to the next, the next new thing. So, but yeah, that's pretty much how it came. And then I remember I had, I was living on my own at a certain age after I left school. And I was sitting down. I was visiting my mother lived in Richmond, her Queens at the time when she sat down. And she just said to me, period, just came on set. Are you gay? And I was very defiant. Yes, yes, I am. And she said, oh, I just wanted to know. Wow. That was it. So I'm always wondering who's coming out. I don't really remember coming out. It just smoothly moved along. So I was very happy. My mother and I have up until her death in 97, I believe we have a very good relationship. We had a very close relationship. My all my lovers were good to my mother because you know, you want to get to any gay man be good to his mother. So mine were always good. So what was your first experience in one of those public toilets, one of the washrooms? Oh, I don't know. I mean, was it shocking to you surprising? Not really because my earliest memory of touching another male came on my fifth birthday. My fifth birthday party was five years old. And let's see, hold on a second. I'll give you a treat. I hope you can get this. Photos. Yes. Can you see that one? A little bit. Not well. Okay. Yes. Yes. Okay. Now, I'm not that's I'm big. The one in the light shirt. Is my childhood friend Tyrone. Okay. And that was taken on my fifth birthday party. And when they were bringing out the cake, they were looking for me. And me and Tyrone were out in the backyard touching each other's tippy. That was my first and earliest experience. And I still have it on my wall of fans. So that's pretty much how and then there were like little, little incidents, you know, because I was often on my own a lot because of my parents separated off and on. And we were left with the neighborhood kids. And we were all experiencing whatever it is you experienced at that age. You know, you're playing in the local parking lot or does the city dump nearby or something just, you know, when you're a kid, everything is magic. Yes. And in any place your parents aren't there and you have free reign with your friends. You know, the sky's the limit. You experience so many things. I would like to say it was abused, but unfortunately I wasn't. I had to learn it on my own. These kids today, they're all abused. They're just squeezing. Please, nobody take offense at that. Well, you, you were living in New York City when you were young and that was a very unique time. I think very different from the New York City we know today. Oh God. Yeah. What about some of the differences you notice or things that you know about that? What arena and the sexual arena? Both. Both that and regular. Well, let's say when I was coming up, let's say about from 17. I thought the world revolved around 42nd Street, especially the gay world. I didn't do anything. I just liked walking up and down the streets. And at that time I was 300 pounds. Also, I should point out. And there are no immediate pictures of that anywhere. But I was a big at that time. And I would just walk up and down 42nd from eight to six, eight to six. Excuse me. They were attractive and they were sexually appealing. And I just like looking and then eventually there was a line of theaters. There's a lot of old movies with there's all and I went to some of the X movies and they were straight. They weren't gay when they were straight ones. And there was some activity in the audience, which observing a young man that I am, I saw that. And then later on, a friend of mine that I went to school with, he was kind of a friend of me. He asked me also if I was gay. And also another person I was, I wanted to throw it in someone's face because I had been kind of socially conditioned that this was a bad thing. Right. And whenever I was going to someone asked me, I would say, yeah, I'm gay. God damn it. What is that? But that was not the reaction I got. And my friend, he said to me, he says, so have you been to Christopher Street? And I said, no. He said, how can you say you're gay and you've never been to Christopher Street? And I said, okay. And I put it off for about a week or two weeks. And then I decided one night that I was kind of bored with 42nd Street. And I said, well, let's see what's happening on this Christopher. Well, as it were. It turned out to be, I think it was the night after or the day after the Stonewall riots. Wow. And I went down there and all I saw were just this explosion of gay men. And I walked from six again, from six Avenue. All the way down to, to the, at the time where the warehouses. Okay. And I must have made that walk about 20 times in one night. And at the time I had a curfew because I was still in high school, I think then. And my curfew was first it was midnight. And then it was dawn, depending on the grade I was in. And I was singing here. My mother said, be on before the sun comes up, which was really kind of rushed and pushing it. And I just walked back and forth just my mouth like hanging. And the people you met on the way, I mean, Sylvia and Marsha were already out there already. I knew them all and we were all hanging out because at the time when I left school and I also was working. And a lot of those people weren't working. They were the street people there. And they were activists because they were there. If you were there and you opened your mouth, time will record it. I mean, look what's happened with Marsha and Sylvia. Yeah, they didn't, I'm sure they didn't set out to be activists. But history is recorded them as that because they spoke out. They, they, they championed the cause. And I think anybody in that time, we had to march. It was just where you had to be. And, yeah, that's where we were. And that's, that's how my thing kind of gradually kind of got more into it. Now, of course, the longer I was out there, I lost about, I went from a 44 waist size to a 30, to a 31. Wow. And three months. That's a lot of work. Yeah. I remember the pair of gray pants just went like this. And when I went back into school, people didn't recognize me. It was great. So for the benefit of the audience, for people who may not know to whom you're referring, would you please explain who Marsha and Sylvia were? See, I just assume people know. But I'm thinking there may be some young person out there. I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are. Yeah. And, you know, fortunately, there's a lot of, a lot of documentaries and stuff I've told about it. They were, they were activists who simply advocated gay rights and gave us a voice and took us to a political level. Because, you know, unlike popular opinion has it that, oh, the Stonewall riots came the next day, life was a bowl of cherries. It was not like that at all. As a matter of fact, I think maybe a week later, there was a, there was, what the heck was the name of the club? There were, there were two clubs. One was called the psychedelic shock, I think. And the other one was something that started with P. It'll come to me. Oh, maybe not. But the clubs were raided and furniture was slashed and the place was defaced all like a week or two later. There was another club at the end of Christopher called Christopher N. That I remember because that used to be the doors for the music be playing at one at night. And suddenly the DJ plug would be pulled on the video box on jukebox. And they say, okay, it's a raid. And all the customers knew to pile out while sources went in and collected the money went out. Then, you know, you circle the block and you came back in. And those, those raids were was still pretty ongoing even after and during Stonewall. So it did take a lot, a lot more time after that to occur. So tell us a little bit more about Marsha and Sylvia. That was Marsha Johnson. Yes. Right. Okay. Well, there was so much I could tell except that when we had to sit in at NYU because they weren't going to do dances anymore. They were there for that. And a lot of the street kids that came to them, they usually went to them because they were the eldest. And they were, as I see it now from, from visual and not from experience that they did take care of a lot of these kids. And they all had a thing going in. I remember we had, because I was living partially at home and I was working still. So I wasn't living on the streets. But the times you had, like at night you would go down to the Silver Dollar restaurant. And we didn't have a lot of money, but we would go in there at like one at night. My truckers would be there and we'd be hanging on to one cup of coffee for most of the night. Just, just thinking of new reading, new dish lines to do. I mean, like it was the people were enormously clever and clever to be. I wish I had written down a lot of the things that you'd heard. I mean, you know, and they would, it would be like rapid fire. You know, you can you really, I would, Ryan Murphy did a good thing with pose. He captured just that little bit of it with the dancing. And that was one of the things I miss. They didn't do the ballrooms. They had different goals. And I wanted to get out of Queens. I didn't think the ballrooms would get me there. And I knew them. I knew them to talk to them and to share stuff with them. And I'm trying to pull out memories, but they're very few. They weren't, they were friends. You know, they were there. Oh, they were special. We were close. I mean, at that time, especially coming in from the 60s, new people, a lot of people from the, the Velvet Underground from Andy Warhol's group. You know, and Holly Woodlaw would be there. What else did we know through that? That entire, that entire group was they weren't special because they were friends. You know, they were talented, but not to us. They just could do stuff later. Now it's like, oh, yeah. But yeah, yeah. Capturing memories and trying to stick to a timeline and trying to remember names isn't always easy to say. Yes. I do know that today, Marcia Johnson and Sylvia Riviera are viewed with a bit of iconic status. How do you feel about that? Well, it was just a matter of being there and being loud. I don't think they possess, I didn't know them well enough to see that they possessed any particular swaying power. They weren't marching to the halls of Congress or anything. They were doing what any of us in that era did. They just happened to be probably at every event. But there were others of us who were at every event and who were loud. And they were always, by their appearance alone, was always exceptional. They didn't necessarily blend into the crowd. Well, in our crowd they blended in, but to the outside, they didn't. I remember the first gay pride was just that little stretch of land on Christopher. To me, at that age, all that time was magic. We just viewed, my partner and I, we just viewed the village people and you can't stop the music last night on Prime. And I was in heaven because I knew a place, the people, the area, everything. And I remembered that that movie was not particularly well received at the time. And then you're reading the reviews now and it's like four and a half stars and it's like the personified musical comedy era of that time. Oh my God. All you have to do is just be better. If you can outlast the critics, you know, it becomes fine. I mean, when people started at the point calling me iconic or legendary and stuff like that, it was flattering, of course, but I'm thinking I shouldn't really do anything. I was just there. I'm going to raise my hand, you know, and, you know, putting things together is, you know, I'm a bit of a control freak because that's going to happen anyway. I think, I speculate that a lot of people, particularly my generation and younger, wish we had been able to be part of that magical time. So for us to hear it from someone who lived it, is fascinating. I think, and I was commenting also on this last night too, is that I think every young person's life normally, just because you're younger and probably prettier and more vital, it is a magic time no matter what things are going through. And I'm thinking my life wasn't particularly golden. I mean, I had a good, nothing to complain about during my life and stuff. And I'm thinking like during these years, though, when there was all this crime and all this dirt and all this stuff and people are saying how horrible it was, to me, I think it was magic. Everything was magical. You know, you'd go out at two and you'd see celebrities all the time and people that were doing stuff and the clothes, the mood, the music. And I wasn't even doing drugs. I can imagine what other people were going through. So I think, and I try to know when I tell these things and people ask me and so forth, I try not to glamorize it too much because I don't want to make small of what they're doing. You know, it's like, oh, you know, like, oh, yeah, you should have been there then. Oh, that was really something. This is eh. And then you think they're going to think you're a piece of crap and their life starts because of you. Oh my gosh. I mean, you do something like Mid-Atlantic now, you know, which is different from what it used to be. The perfect example is I didn't go there for years because I hated the weather. And I finally took a bus one day and went and I was just blown away mostly by the ice sculpture around the buffet thing. They used to have an ice. And now of course, you know, it's nice. But no ice sculpture. But I try to put a little bit in there because we create, we, you know, it was a different time, you know, now a lot of people are going to the Internet and they're going to make something out of it. Maybe the people are realizing that contact is best. Maybe something, something to come out of it. I'm a writer and they say, what science fiction writers write will come true. So maybe what I write will come true. We can hope. Yes. Let's look at your writing a little bit because it's absolutely fascinating. You've looked at my stuff. Well, what I can. And I would like to know, I rather let me rephrase that. You've said that you came of publishing age during the outlaw brashness of New York City in the 70s. Now, what does that mean to you? How do you explain that? At the time, the city was in the throes of the mafia. So, so it says. And I had, I had started writing when I was in school. I wrote comic books. They did a lot of little graphic novels and things by hand. And so I had a bit of an imagination. And I'm not sure when I decided to actually put serious pen to paper. But when I decided I wanted to write, I don't even remember what the first thing was I wrote. I would like to say other voices other rooms, but no. That's someone else. And I said, okay, I'll write this. And I wanted to write. Right. I wanted to write. And all the venues that you had Christian writing, romantic writing, novelist stuff, none of it seemed to pay anything. And it wasn't about the money. But you know what they say when they say it's not about the money, it's about the money. But it really was. But it really wasn't because you get paid a penny per word, that sort of thing. You send it out. You get so long to. We'll look at it. We'll get back to you. But when I started writing for the game magazines, which was also a chance. It's kind of a, if you can dig up the history on that, the, the owners. They said to me, they, they would tell you, we get it. We'll read it. If we take it, we'll take it. If you will print it, you'll get to check. When the issue comes out. If we don't want it, we'll let you know within a week, whether we want it or not. So it was really kind of snap, snap, snap. And that was wonderful. A lot. And I was getting, I got, I got a few rejections of course. Not a lot, not a lot, not a lot to paper anything. Very few. And on occasion. I would read on one where they would change something in it without consulting me. But I just paid. And then, you know, which is why I very rarely reread anything. Once it's published, I don't look at it anymore. And, but they were, they would come with a credible artist would be illustrating my stuff. I think eventually I wrote for drama magazine, which wasn't mob on there. It was never a mob on there. Don't get me wrong. This is after that period of all the magazines that they were printing, they. Printed my story did a brilliant editing job. Marcus Wanaka. I got to give him props. And he made the story better. And the illustrations were spectacular. And my name and print. And that was the first time that I actually really felt really proud of what I was doing. Because before I was printing a lot of stories in New York under the mob things. And I felt they called it organized crime for a reason. Because they were certainly organized. They got that check there. They got it. When it changed hands, when that era was over, you know, it was a whole nother kettle of fish. You know, not to say anybody was any more or less, but. Wow. But I pointed to the drama issue because it was a three-parter. And it was a real. That's when I really began to put a lot of effort into what I was doing. And then I answered a contest. And they called me. And it was $100 and they're going to print my story. Well, as it turned out, the company was. Love you divine. And they printed everything I wrote. And that's, I don't know where they were. Yeah, it was probably, it was a very prolific time. And I would be turning those things out. Like. Xerox. And they were, they were. For a story, it's what can I say. But like every direct actor needs a good director. I think every writer needs a good editor. Yes. And especially so, because I've experienced brilliant editing. And I've experienced that he even read this. Because they were just. Oh, can you do him great stuff, great stuff. And I was almost overnight. I'd be banging them out because it was like, I think 200, 2000, 2000 words. And I could zip that right out. And then they started. Putting covers to my stories. So it was my name. Slashy covers. So I didn't, I was just all about the story and producing me, me, me. And for a while, it was, it did pretty good. And apparently though, there were drags where they were robbing me. They weren't showing this. They were printing double ISP numbers. Just a whole lot of mess. But it ended up with me doing something like a 80 stories. And boil it down to like eight anthologies. Of about 20 a piece. And then, you know, I did a series of fitness books, meditation books. And of course, the black man and leather thing, which was my real big thing, which was, which really deserves a second coming because the, in the beginning, there were interviews that I had done with, you know, Tony de Blas and, and so many other names and so forth. So when it comes right to mine. And Luke Owens was editing it for me in Los Angeles. And I was doing the earthquake. And I was before we were saving stuff on computer, blah, blah, blah. And it was lost. And it was the better part of the book, even though it's, it's still good. It was a better part of it. Before we go too far into that, I'd like to take one step back or maybe two steps back. Because I read that you love writing, you love sex and parties, and you've combined them all. How have you done that? Lines, all lines. Well, when I was younger, it was easy. And, and when I was about 25, I think it was, I moved to Europe. Okay. And that was a whole, there was a whole lot of stuff around that. My, my then partner at the time was a Swiss airline. Attendant. And our fair was Switzerland, Toronto, Switzerland, Toronto, because I was living in Toronto then. And we moved together and then later it was Amsterdam, Toronto, Amsterdam, Switzerland. And then that crossfire, I opened a bar, Cuckoo's Nest. Yes. Cuckoo's Nest was the Amsterdam's first daytime back room leather bar. It wasn't that in the beginning. There was a cocaine tent, and the police closed it down. And my then partner happened to be smart enough to catch it at the moment that the landlord was there and he took over the lease. And we had a bar. And the bar looked, didn't look like a bar. It certainly didn't look like it did now, like it does now. And Nigel Kent, who was a Australian piercer, used to come to the bar regularly. We had regulars of maybe three customers, so about three or four beers a day. A day. Yeah, that was. He said to me one night and a drunk and anything that, you know what you ought to do? You ought to paint the bar pink and open it in the daytime. I said, well, we don't have the money to paint it pink, but I can open the daytime. I did have a daytime license. And from there, the bar took off. And it's still going on. I just went back for it's 30, I think 35th year anniversary, I think it is. And then they did me good too. When I went there, you know, they, you know, yeah, here's the old guy who opened it up. That's always rather nice, you know, because a lot of people say, I have my first thing at the Cuckoo's Nest. And I thought that was kind of nice. Because it was, I was, well arguably the biggest back room in Europe. It was huge. And the stories you could tell on there. Well, I visited the Cuckoo's Nest many times. Oh, well, you ought to have me buddy. Oh yeah, that was, no, we had, we had time with it. And that's where all the parties came from. And originally when we started the fisting parties there, was when one of the fire, the fire, the firehouse used to throw parties to Amsterdam, gay parties. And they also at the time lost their lease. And I was there to catch it. And know how, you know, I rushed and had the signs printed out that we're having a party on the full moon. I started the full moon parties. And the slings, where did they go to? The slings at the time made a journey. They made a journey to here to Wally. Wally ended up with them from the lure. And where do they make their other circle? They made, oh, well, like fisting parties that I started throwing here for the last 10 years were there also. So the slings have been around. I recently sold them when the pandemic started because I wanted to get out of business. And, yeah, that's how that's all the parties started. And of course when you're promoting a bar, you went and fortunately in Europe too, where they, you know, you can get on the bus and be in another country. So you were always going to the parties and being promoted there and pushing the parties. And every party that you had a reason to go to for me, which was always promoting something, promoting a book, promoting a lifestyle, promoting a business. Usually if I'm not promoting something, I find I don't enjoy myself as much because I don't feel I have as much to do. It's like I say that twiddling my thumbs. Let's take a step back though, because I read that your works, your writing can be a bit shocking and it's not for the faint of heart. What about that? Well, last publisher or the last two publishers, they according to my now publisher said they were marketing me to women. And a lot of the reviews came from women and a lot of stuff that turns men on, especially in our kink scene, doesn't necessarily appeal to women. And I have dark fantasies and I got a lot of those from living in Europe. I mean, at the time I was living there, especially with me, I kept running into a lot of people that I must say used to me as a top. And I say that I put this way because most of the guys that ran into a lot of Germans, they would always act first and ask later. But it was kind of like, okay, here's the path or here's the where for it. Here are the needles. This is what you're going to do to me. So you're kind of standing there, and I'm always identified as a top, but not versatile. Just in case you can always learn something. But they would always, this is what you're going to do. And so I always say that I can give as good as I get, but I really can't. But they trained me in such a severe way that I embraced it completely. And of course, the better the top you are, the more the bottoms will tell people and the better your reputation is. So I worked on that. You know, ego always plays a part in it. Yeah, good times. You've mentioned earlier, one of your books in particular, and that's Black Men in Leather. Yeah, it's a non-sexual book. Tell us about that, because I know it's very famous, it's well-received. A lot of places you were in, people were always asking you questions, especially about the black-white dynamic. And Kinko's relatively new in the black community, and it was kind of not as prevalent as it was in the white community. So they were asked these questions, and I would write down and take note of some of the questions they asked. And I sent out like something like almost a thousand questionnaires. And I did a few workshops around the country, too. And they include, that's where I got some of the answers and some of the questions. And then I eventually put it together. And at first I did it the way Kinko's. Kinko's was my first publisher. It was in the Spiral Notebook. And actually my other book, Pain, is also in the Spiral Notebook. And now, thank goodness, it's much easier, you know, to be self-published. And those were self-published. And every so often it gets a rush. It gets a rush of sales and then another little rush of sales. You know, it's, and a couple of scholars have told me that they use it in Washington and like, you know, in their classes or whatever. And let me put that right. Mindy, who is a professor right now, she teaches in her class in Washington and Black Studies. And she uses it there. There you go. Okay. And like about now, especially with the George Floyd thing, it's also people are taking an interest in it again, especially the new generation. So, and so I'm just starting my work on my new foundation on supporting writers of color who wish to promote our alternative lifestyle. You have to worry that diverse community writing about alternative lifestyles. Since, for instance, if a writer is having difficulties with anything, like to help them along, help give them a promotion. It's my way of preserving hopefully my legacy and helping a lot of writers and people in the arts, because it's for screenplays, actors, dancers, that sort of thing. It's just coming up. You'll be hearing about it later, probably after this. Let's come back to the book though. What does the book have to tell us? It tells you about how people are seeing relations, black, white relations in their relationships. You're seeing how are they being perceived outside? There was a lot of hostility and a lot of, you're going to be a black slave to a white master. Let's talk about that. What are your issues? How does that make you feel? Can you use the term, the N word in the context of the bedroom or out of the context of the bedroom? When is it right between two kingsters to decorate one or the other? You humiliate that sort of thing. It's a fantasy. You have to decide when does politics enter or if it enters your bedroom. Some of the other things. I could get a copy of the book and check it out. Clearly, it's definitive. It's a definitive book. Of that time, unfortunately, maybe still from what I'm being told. Do you feel that helped shape perhaps the next generation of people coming into the scene? I think it'll provide answers. If I don't provide them, I hope that through the internet or whatever, other people will. But people take it information differently. They may accept something from me that they wouldn't accept, say, from you or anyone else. It depends on how you can never tell. You never tell how that works out. One guy says in the book about being kinky. We were always kinky, but we always called it just being a freak. I never actually started using the word. I probably used it in my writing, but it's never been something that rose constantly over in my head. Currently, I've been alerted to this new thing about knotting and transformation sex and everything that supposedly is all the rage. It's been a challenge writing that sort of thing on one hand, but on the other hand, it's all fantasy. It's kind of easier to write because there are no set rules for fantasies. It's been a lot of fun writing it. We're working on an anthology now, but it's all transformation. Tell us about America's first black sex action hero, and that's Hannibal Rex. Oh, Hannibal. One day, I was sitting around doing nothing, and I said, I'm going to go through some of this stuff, magazines, whatever, and I'm going to pick a sentence or two, and I want to write a story around that sentence. My Dave Chappelle says in one of those Netflix specials that he writes the punchline first and then builds the joke around it and he gets to the punchline. So that's what I did with this, and I said, it's going to be pure jail fiction. Just... And I had a great deal of fun writing it. There's just a writing around it, and then I had a guy, a Dutch boy, who offered to do the editing for me if he could masturbate while he was writing the story. I said, great. So let me know how good it is. So he sat in my den at the time, I was living in Amsterdam, and he was sitting there, and I said, and he goes, I forget how many stories there were. And then I solicited, I think, seven or eight artists to illustrate each story. And they were all diverse artists, you know? Some names I could look up and find for you. None of the major people like you would see from the... the major leather magazines now, the glossy ones that come to mind. But very good artists, some that are known. And it was a different style. So it was all... And because it was like 8x10, I included a box of crayons with each cell. So it was kind of an adult coloring book. And the first stories were printed in... Mr. Toy SM in Denmark. And it was translated into German. And I think there were about four or five stories that were printed out. And then later when I came back here, a couple of them appeared in Black Leather and Colour. And that's when I made the stories, put them together, re-edited them, re-imposed them, and put them out as the coloring book. And so they're still available. Make wonderful Christmas decorations, stocking stuffers. But your book, Sex in the Dungeon, is celebrated for saving countless lives. Tell us about that. That was... Again, something I don't remember where my inspiration was, but I'm diabetic. And I realize that there are certain things that actually I haven't run across really in sex play, but I know of others who have mentioned it. And there's certain protocols, things you want to check, things that are in bondage, make sure circulation is right. You want to make sure the blood sugar is not too high, not too low, things to recognize, drugs that interfere with that. And it was a little booklet that should fit into what we used to have with toy bags. Back in the day, we went to the bars and we had toy bags, because we were going to really seriously play. You don't see those anymore. But it fit in there. And it also now fits in your wallet or whatever. And it's a handy thing to use. And people have told me about it. And I gave it whenever I went to events. I brought about, you know, 100, 200. And I just got a recent request from my Carter Johnson library. And it came out of my own pocket, but it wasn't like, you know, a major expense because the booklets were small and they opened up into a lot of pages. And it was a reference kind. And talking about redoing that too. Because it is slightly dated. I don't think much information has changed though. You know, sugar is still sugar. And unless they come up with a cure, you know, this is what you're doing. I got a community service award for that. Very surprising, very pleased. So, you know, I got it from one of the black events. And I was presented by Jill Carter and now by Johnson and stuff like that. And she asked them, they know a lot about my timeline better than I do. Well, I am going to do an interview with them next month. Or you'll get to Vi, you'll use all your film. She knows everything. Tell us about your, I guess it's ffslinger.com. It was a, or is a globally sexual networking site. Tell us about that. Well, I have the slings. And I think I brought them in from Amsterdam. And I wanted to have a club started here in New York. Rent one out. And there was spaces. And they wanted, you know, so much for a door thing and share it and stuff. And these slings are supposed to be portable. And they're portable if you're Arnold Schwarzenegger. And at the time we were like, what? 5756. And we carded them down and it was a real hassle. I think it was about four or five slings. And the owner of the building said he didn't want to store them. For some odd reason. Who knows why people do things. And I have a fairly large apartment. And I said, you know, we could do this here. And actually I said four slings, four, five slings here and one in the bedroom. And I had those set up and tarp on the floor and the whole thing and music and Crisco's in town. Just a regular set up because I, you know, God knows I've been around enough of them. Pencil here. And I actually got surprised too because my setup is a lot better than some setups and professionals. Well, in other places that pass. And it was like less than I learned in Cuckoo's Nest. She can't please everybody. Do it Monday. Do it Tuesday. High lighting, lower lighting, you know, and you make yourself crazy trying to make everybody happy. But we get good ideas from people. People. I had Wednesdays. I had some Fridays. I had Saturdays. I had some Sunday afternoons. And it was for people who were seriously into this thing. And the thing was that the thing, the thing was, do not come over to watch. This is not a tourist site. You either play, you either play, you have to leave. And it's not because I'm that demanding about it, but this apartment is only big enough for people who are playing. It's not big enough. It's not big enough for a meet and greet, you know, which eventually my kitchen turned into a meet and greet. But and work that around very quickly. Especially through Europe. My cases to Europe were very good. And it would catch on and drips and dribbles, you know, like people would love it and they come for three to four times and then they didn't. Yeah. And the same, they had the same beginning that Cuckoo's Nets also had. It was a guilty pleasure. It's where the partners of employed partners will come in the afternoon, use the playroom, drink and so forth, but they would keep it a secret. So nobody would know. Eventually, though, because there was no ventilation and Cuckoo's Nets at that time, the smell of the beer and the cigarettes went into your clothes. So there was no way you could keep it a secret any longer. But that's the way the fisting party started, too. Everybody liked them, but they didn't want people encroaching on their turf. And they come and they say, where's the new people? And I say, how many did you bring? Yeah. And I would do as many promotions, two for one. If you're coming up this time for $5, you can have an extra much week. Didn't work. Every once in a while they'd drop in, but anyway, even with that, it ran for 10 years. And the pandemic fell just about the right time. It was, okay, fine. This is the cutoff. And do I miss it? My partner and I are pretty much up there in years and we cannot be taking seven slings up and down every week. You have been an activist, a contest judge, a promoter, a bar owner, and of course, a very successful writer. What advice can you offer people who are new to this community? Well, pretty much what I said in the beginning, just be there. Be a part of it. It's not even that you have to actively hard participate. You do just be there just to soak up the entity, the ideas, the activism. And sometimes you'll see something that, oh, I can do that or I would like to be part of that. Or hey, that's something I can do. Sometimes you watch television and you see all these amazing people doing amazing things. And they'll tell you, oh, I've always wanted this all my life since I was three years old. You haven't lived yet, but they have. But it doesn't mean you have to start being a king star. You haven't had three years old. Yeah. There would be wrong. But yeah, no, just be there. Like if somebody says, I need your help for something, offer a hand because everybody's got something to offer. You know? But don't offer them always sex because sex sometimes is a lot easier to get than you imagine. What are your thoughts on mentoring? Give me an idea. Well, for example, a new person coming into the community, seeking guidance from established people. How do you see working with new people in that particular way? Well, I would like to say listen, pay attention, be there. Don't talk. But that would be wrong. Because I think mentoring goes both ways. I think taking somebody into your wing, I don't know if I could do that, but I think it could a little bit, little ways. But I wouldn't want my whole imprint to be on him. I'd also want to learn something from him. Or, you know, I'm not about that. And I've always considered myself broad. I mean, when I started the parties in Cooper's, that's the fisting parties, I made them co-ed. And of course, oddly enough, there was a lot of flag. And the women didn't stay too long, but they were there. And that's what I wanted. And I put Monica behind the bar. She was the first girl behind the bar, a leather bar, and cuckoo's nest. And she was very heavy into leather, very heavy outfister. And I was kind of stunned because for Amsterdam, the city with that kind of reputation, they really half came down against her. They wouldn't even let her in their leather bars on Varmistrand. And lost a few customers because of it, but also gained a lot of new customers. Because I've always promoted, you know, it's the same thing also with the fisting thing. I had women come in. A guy used to come here often, up to the own room, and he asked me one day if he could bring his wife. And I said, is she into fisting? And he said, well, she taught me. And she was, and she's been amazing. Whenever she's here, the party rocks. I mean, she, well, German, another girlfriend of hers was German. And there was, you know, I would have liked to have made movies, but I used to take pictures at the beginning, but it drained the energy when you take the picture. So I stopped taking pictures. So I could have made movies. But I also think that is having the women there added to the extra energy. And people will come in and say, well, I don't think I can get a hard time. I say, well, first of all, it's a fisting party. You don't really need one. And I said, second of all, you don't have to have sex with her. There's four things in the front. And at this time, there were two things in the back. You don't have to be there. You know, but I always kind of advocated an all around thing because my experience has always been just because I'm not into it doesn't mean somebody else isn't. Yeah. And I find, I think you meet a lot of interesting people who have a lot of interesting sidelines to their kink that you didn't think about. And there may be five things of this particular kink that's pretty gross to you. But there's one thing in there that really turns you on. So, you know, live and learn. What is the biggest misconception about you? About me. It's the biggest misconception. Well, I always say is a lot of people don't see, I can see my people laughing now and rolling their eyes. Is that I'm probably more open and compassionate than they think. I mean, when people see me, especially for most of my life, because I've always usually been a big guy. And I think a lot of people are guilty of this too. But as soon as they see you, they tend to label you. And as soon as I enter the room, my reputation and so forth, and just based on, they just automatically assume, I'm on your knees, boy, type of talk. And that isn't always true. You know, as I was saying, goes, daddies need daddies too. I mean, I've got to thank you for an amazing interview today for Inside Another History, a fireside chat. Oh, thanks for some pretty good questions. Had to think about them. Come back to me, of course, when you need me to refer and find some answers. Names of places, times and dates. Things that round out can't be true.