 at the Fluent Conference, this is SiliconANGLE's theCUBE, our flagship program, we've got the events that's coming from the noise, and Riley Media is really putting on a great event here for developers, really looking for the next big thing, how to take JavaScript, take it to the next level, full stack, protocol standards, community new tooling, a lot of amazing stuff, so if you're a developer out there, watch the feed, and connect to this community, it's a great event. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, I'm joined with Jeff Frick from SiliconANGLE, and we're co-hosting here at the Fluent Conference, we're at Brandon Satrim, who's a program manager for Lead Cross Platform Tools and Services, Teller Rick, welcome to theCUBE. Thank you, thank you very much, thanks for having me. So, obviously JavaScript is very relevant, it's not going anywhere, it's going to the moon and back, as I say to my kids, it's really big, but there's baggage with JavaScript, and there's opportunities with JavaScript, so it's been around for a while, there's all kinds of issues, developers know firsthand pain points around multiple browsers, and things are moving very, very fast, and it's really scaling from just scripting to full-stack protocol support, obviously REST APIs are amazing at Advent to accelerate that, but it's evolving really fast into a whole other dimension. So, first comment I want to get from you is your view on that, I mean, the view of the Fluent Conference for the developers that aren't here, what's some of the conversations, and how do you see JavaScript and other technologies evolving and some of the dynamics around that? You know the beauty of a conference like this is it's proof of the ubiquity of this platform, and ubiquity has always been a key word for me for web development, because it is, it's the only platform that all you really need to get in and get going is a text editor and a browser, you've got everything you need to know to start coding for this platform, even if it's just inside the desktop, and a lot of people get their start because of how easy it is to get into this world, into this platform, into the front end, and seeing the level of excitement and activity, talking to people about what they're working on, great improvements in front end development tooling, in the kinds of libraries that people are building, based on JavaScript, the kind of tools that people are working on, it's just really exciting stuff, being on the expo hall and seeing what some of the other sponsors are doing and the things that they're talking about, it's been exciting to see, not just that people have continued to flock to this platform, but that it is standing the test of time, it continues to be the place where people go, by and large, to build their businesses, to have a product, to form communities, it's just, the web has continued to. I mean, it's easy to work with. I mean, one of the attributes of JavaScript was easier, yeah, put the browser stuff aside, stuff in the butt, internet explorer, we all know the issues there, but Chrome and Google's here, and they're talking about some of the things that they're doing, it's really evolving into a solid software engineering environment where developers are cutting their teeth into some new things, so there are some tooling issues, there are some new things coming out, what are you seeing? What are some of the conversations like here in the keynotes and the hallways? I think tooling is one of those things that's very interesting, I'm seeing a lot of people very interested in, they're on this platform, a lot of them are making the move to mobile because it's the undeniable place to be right now, even on the web, you either are building hybrid apps or you're building native apps, but you're paying attention to that mobile landscape, and in mobile specifically, the two biggest things that people talk about at this conference anywhere that I go is the tooling story, but also the performance story, and those kind of go hand in hand because you can build tooling for better performance, but you can also, a lot of developers just want, they want those bootstraps, they want easy starter projects, they want good tools that help them get, to get running, to hit the ground running, to target as many devices as possible, and they're really looking for options, but they're also looking for opportunities to be a part of communities and contribute to communities as well, and so I'm seeing a lot of that kind of conversation in the hallways and sessions as well. So Brandon, talk a little bit about, before you came on there, we were talking about the nightmare of some people that are still standardized on IE5, and you know that's a thing to develop for, but now with mobile and the multiple platforms, and then you got the standardized thing on iOS, but then I've got the explosion of Android, and now the Netscape phone, and all this interesting stuff, is it getting harder or easier, and how is mobile changing your development paradigm, not so much for writing your first application, but for QA and test and roll out and upgrades and updates and all that type of thing, it seems like there's an explosion of quote unquote web platforms, if you will. Absolutely, with a lot of companies, if they make the decision to go mobile, their first choice is, do we have the time and resources and teams to go native on all of those, and if they make the choice to go native, they're talking about having a development team for iOS, a development team for Android, a development team for Windows, Phone, Blackberry, but there's even more now, there's Firefox OS, there's Tizer, Xpada, right. You're going to be a side of those guys. But that continues to propagate, more platforms mean more issues on the native side, but even on the mobile side, you then have the issue of, okay, so we're not going to go native, let's go ahead and just target the mobile web, or let's build a hybrid app. You tend to have similar issues, because now you're dealing with, maybe cross browser consistencies between inconsistencies, between what Safari on iOS gives you versus the stock Android browser on an Android 2x device, versus Chrome for Android on an Android 4 device. And so this is, I think, where tooling comes back in and makes a place, because a lot of developers, when they make that choice to go hybrid, what they're saying is time to market matters to us. The ability to get the broadest reach to get in the hands of as many people as possible with our product or with our app, really, really matters, and we want to use web technologies to do so, because we have the skills to do that. And so when they're faced with, they make that choice, and yet now they have to deal with these cross browser inconsistencies, it's kind of like the way web development was in the mid-90s. There's still a couple guys on IE 5. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, and I've been to cities where I've asked that question of who's supporting what version of IE, and where hands come up for IE 5 and IE 5.5, things like that. Brandon, I want to ask you about some of the things that we've heard in the hallways, and Jeff and I were talking prior to coming on, about some of the challenges around DevOps, and then we've got the physical internet of things, the industrial internet we had Brady Forrest on yesterday, he's got a whole investment thesis around that software for devices, whether it's Nest, like a thermostat, or other cool things, and also he's involved in Maker Faire, so yeah, he's got a great job. But there's always the trade off between creativity for a developer and efficiency of coding, and you hear that all the time. Hey, I wrote such great code, but I wasn't really creative, or I'm really creative, didn't write great code. So you mentioned bootstrap, so how do you see that challenge evolving? Because JavaScript is easy, there's some toolings that you can do available out there, so how do you see that in the developer community here at Fluent, this community, around that balance of creativity versus efficient coding? Is it more advent of more open source? Is it more modules, new products? How do you see that evolving? Is that important to balance that? Absolutely, and I think as the community, and I've been in the web community as a developer in another role for the past 15 years, and what I've seen over that time is a lot of broad maturity and growth in the way that we, not only treat JavaScript as the language of the web, but the way that we handle our own practices and our own disciplines around testing, around creating modular code, around evaluating libraries, and bringing up libraries like Backbone and Knockout and MVVM and MVC libraries and things like this that allow developers and easy entree into the platform, but it also gives them some of that boilerplate so that they're really focusing on building a value. They're not doing all the boilerplate, all of the repetitive tasks that you have to do from one app to the next so that they're really just focused on what's the value in the app that I'm building. And I'm seeing as more and more people come into the community, more and more people say, I wanna automate this repetitive task. I wanna build a library that allows a developer to do this, to jump in quickly and to focus on delivering value instead of focusing on the same boilerplate every single time. I think that's one of the biggest things is eliminating boilerplate, being very ruthless about testing and about raising the bar for discipline. I've seen that a lot in the JavaScript world, and I think one of the reasons why that's been so popular over the last couple of years is because you have people from a lot of other communities coming into the front end world. We have former Ruby developers, former .NET developers, or even current people in these communities, but as they're turning their focus and attention more to the front end, they're bringing the practices and disciplines from those worlds, from those stacks, and applying those to the code that they're writing on the front end as well, not just in desktop apps, but in mobile, in mobile hybrid apps. What are the top environments you're seeing here that's getting a lot more lift with this new era of the more server side, more real time, streaming has been a big thing. We didn't, one of the complaints is, you're not hearing a lot about web sockets, but managing things like that, all this new headroom is around that's developer community. Obviously, you got .NET, you mentioned Ruby. Any other environments? A lot of folks at Java at PHP as well, I mean, those are always really popular communities that as they continue, even as those communities continue to mature, more and more people are realizing how much is possible on the front end. How much you can deliver great performance in the browser with an app that doesn't post back to the server every time a user clicks a button, it clicks a link. So all of those communities are really in droves coming into the front end and adopting it. You know, I've been in the web space, got back to the original web 1.0 in the 90s, and it's funny how JavaScript had hit the scene, it was really explosive because it was just so easy to work with and the demand for web apps and websites, et cetera, was evolving, rich media, all that good stuff. But it became to a point where there was some kind of delusion to the brand of the developers that were building JavaScript and the old joke was go to the yellow pages if you can get a web developer, right? And I know JavaScript, I studied it in school, I banged out a couple of pixels on one browser. So there's been, that's not negative, it's just kind of the market lift, it's just been overall developer. So there's, you have kind of like pockets of IQ, I call it, and so you're seeing here the evolution of real software development, as you mentioned, QA. Where is this going in terms of growth around the profile of developers? Obviously, you know, more stacks, different stacks, more tooling, API has been a godsend for developers in the sense of in with DevOps, et cetera, with cloud. So share with us your perspective of how it's evolved from kitty scripters to now real time real chops, you know? I've lived that, and that's what- There's nothing wrong with that, I mean, hey, bang out some websites, people got started, but the addiction of development, really software engineering practices being more agile, being more QA, can you share some color? That's an amazing trend that I've observed a lot, and I've given, I've talked about this in other talks before, the way that the web has evolved and the way that developers have come along for the ride, and our perception of JavaScript as a result over the last 15, over the last 17 years now, the language is 17 years old, that we have, when things first started, you know, I first started doing development, I was doing ASP Classic development, using Microsoft ASP 3 and SQL Server and simple websites for a consulting company based in Houston, and JavaScript was, it was about writing as little JavaScript as possible to get to the back end, right? To get to the server side code piece, that's where the real development took place, and you had, your stack was very little client, very large server and database, right? And then what happened around the web 2.0 time when Jesse James Garrett coined the term Ajax, what he was observing was that the client was growing and the server was shrinking a little bit, and we started to see people realized, hey, this is all this Ajax stuff is exciting, oh, and I have to use JavaScript to do it, so maybe this isn't such a bad language after all, and people at that point started adopting frameworks like jQuery and Dojo in droves in dealing with some of those cross-browser inconsistencies and recognizing that really the issue that we had with JavaScript many years ago was never the language itself by and large, but it was really the way that the DOM was implemented in one browser and implemented differently in another browser, and those pain points caused us to really deride the language and it wasn't fair. And so we learned during that time that with the increased power and responsibility that you had that you could do some really exciting things, and what we've seen over the last 10 years, all right, seven or eight years from the web 2.0, you know, the declaration of that movement now is that the client has continued to grow, the server has continued to shrink. And I.O. is more important now, right? I.O. is much more important now, and you see in JavaScript now has made a leap from the client to the server with Node, and in a lot of cases has made a leap into the database, like MongoDB, which effectively use JavaScript object notation as your query language into the database itself. So now you have this world where JavaScript, this not that recently derided language, is on the entire stack. And that's an important trend to point out. I mean, the infiltration, as I call it, is really just growth. Absolutely. And with Node, I think when we had the Node Summit two years ago, the first Node Summit in San Francisco, we did the cube there. We talked to a lot of the guys from Node Jitsu and they said, hey, you know what, people want to write mobile apps and they need to talk to the server in a new way, new protocol, new kind of concept. So that headroom's natural. Is there any other areas that you see as headroom that's still unexplored or just kicking the tires or just scratching the surface? I think the biggest is mobile web performance and tooling around that as well. As I think that's sort of the big uncharted territory right now is providing tooling, but also providing hybrid mobile apps that really do feel as close to native as possible. I think that in some cases, there's always a case, there's always a time where native is going to be the best choice. A lot of gaming scenarios native is a fantastic choice for building apps. But HTML5 and its peers, CSS and JavaScript are, I think, perfectly suited to solve, to deliver a lot of hybrid mobile apps in this space. And it doesn't just have to be forms over data or a line of business type apps. I think there's tons of scenarios where you can build a hybrid app. Let's get into that because I think we have, there's a lot of different religions around mobile apps and we've seen some scar tissue, I mean Facebook with their abandonment of HTML5 where that's not their official statement but they've said some things, but you've got native, there's some use cases where you want to go pure native, your whole company's built on it. And then you've got hybrid, then you've got what I call prepackage where they're in a type apps and development environments like an app accelerator where it could be an enterprise wants to throw out an accounting app and they just need to whip up something, right? Or whatever, some sort of a framework. On those use cases, native hybrid prepackage for the lack of a better description, what are the different use cases that you see for those? I mean, why would someone want to do native? What does hybrid look like? What are the use cases for hybrid? And when do I get the turnkey? You know, just I need a framework blow out some apps. Right. I think native, a lot of times it comes through the context there as a company that has the wherewithal, you know, the time, the resources, the money, like in Facebook's case, to have separate native teams, right? There's nothing that's stopping them from doing it because they have a lot more revenue than the rest of us have. Most companies don't have that luxury to spin up three, four different native development teams. And so they have the ability to do that and they also wanted to build a very highly customized experience. I mean, the things that Facebook has been able to do with their apps since they did move back to native have been very interesting. They've done some things that are actually still quite possible with HTML5, but the skill set of that team didn't map very well to hybrid. So I think that they've done better going to native because it matched the skill set of their team and they had the resources to do so. But in a lot of cases, a lot of companies are trying to get to market. You know, what they really want to have is I've talked to folks in the sandbox here and other attendees and what they're really trying to do is they're trying to reach as many devices and as many customers across those devices as quickly as possible. So sometimes the hybrid might be more, okay, I got to integrate into a custom backend. I got some data protection issues or even enterprises we hear they want this emission critical apps that might be native or hey, I have some, I don't want to rewrite code, just put a wrapper around this other app and throw it out there. Right, right, absolutely. So that's kind of what you're saying. And I think that's a good use case for that. Yeah, yeah, I think so, definitely. And you know, on the framework side of things, when it comes to, you know, having industry vertical bootstrap apps and things like that, I think there's definitely a case where that works, that works very well in the hybrid space as well. You know, a realty company, right? And you're just, you want to get your realty app online, you want to get there quickly. This is one of the ways that you can do it. So there's some comments on Twitter I want to get your perspective on. You know, none of us Twitter is Twitter. So there's a guy out there named Harold Neal, we don't know. Harold, shout out to you, if you actually watched this or probably not watching, your friends watching, tell Harold, we use this, Twitter handles Meta Creek at Meta Creek. He wrote lots of jQuery hate at Fluent Conference. Make sure you put the hashtag on there. Not sure what he means by that. I mean, jQuery is also being discussed in the hallways here. What does he mean by that? And you got another, Sean Kester from skfox.com, skfox is his handle. You know, he says good stuff from Red Bull's plug for those guys on what's next for jQuery mobile. Better Flexibles always welcome, looking forward to blah, blah, blah. So you got one quotes, there's lots of hate here at Fluent Conference. Is there challenges going on? What does that mean by that? I think jQuery, because of its history, I mean, is the most popular, the most widely used JavaScript framework in the history of the platform. So because of that popularity, there's going to be some derision sent its way. And because of its age, it also has gone through some growing pains, right? It's a middle-aged framework. So there's some aches and pains and aspects of that framework that they've struggled with dealing with. But at the same time, jQuery has done a fantastic job of managing moving the web forward in terms of dropping IE678 support. And so they now have an option where you can get a much smaller jQuery because a lot of the cross-browser stuff that they had to do for IE678 has been removed from the library. So you can still support those browsers, you can still get a version of jQuery that leverages that if you want, but you can also get a smaller version as well. And they've done a good job of really managing the growth of that library and responding to where things are going in the industry. But I think some of the derision there as well comes from the fact that because jQuery's been around for so long, because it's so popular, because it's so widely used, there are aspects of that API that are inconsistent. There are aspects that sometimes are difficult to use. And like any large popular library, people notice these things and form a negative opinion of them. Stuff breaks. Stuff breaks, absolutely. And I did the talk yesterday morning and actually used jQuery as an example of good API design and bad API design in the same way. Well, this is the classic struggle in a growth market. So you get JavaScript and jQuery, both have legacy and history that are positive. And then the growing pains are, we're modernizing a new era. So there's some things that need to be tweaked. So getting people to cobble together standards is probably a lot of arguments. There's probably a lot of contention. I love this feature, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Right, right, right. And I think as, jQuery is one of the first. And when jQuery came around, there were a handful of JavaScript based libraries. Now we have thousands of JavaScript based libraries. I think I saw from Ignite Fluent there that one of the speakers made the comment about how there are five new JavaScript libraries released every day. Five brand new open source JavaScript libraries every day. And they're not all gonna be good. But as there are more of those out in the wild, people are learning better practices. They're learning different ways of doing things. And they're taking an eye back to jQuery, sort of the old man in the room when it comes to JavaScript libraries and saying, wow, some people think it hasn't aged quite that well. But in many cases it has. And they have a very active team and a vibrant community and a great foundation. They continue to do amazing work. Tell us about your company, Telerick. Let's put a plug in for what you guys are doing. What is the company? What are you guys up to and your role there? So Telerick is a developer tools vendor. We've been around for about 10 years. Most of our history we have built tools for developers on the Microsoft stack. So everything from ASP.net Ajax controls to Windows phone controls to Silverlight controls. And the team that I work on is our cross-platform tools and services division. And I work as the program management lead for that division. And there's a couple of different products that are really our key pieces of what we have inside of there. And one is Kendall UI, which is a framework for building rich web and hybrid mobile applications with HTML, JavaScript and CSS. And another product is Isinium. And Isinium is actually a cloud-based IDE for building hybrid apps for iOS and Android. And it's both a native desktop app on Windows, but also a browser-based IDE on all of the other platforms. And you can actually build your app using either Kendall UI mobile or jQuery mobile and then test your app in the browser, test your app on the device. And then we provide all of the packaging to actually package up your app for iOS and Android and deploy it into the app store. So one of the great advantages if you're a Windows user, you can actually build iOS apps without having to buy a Mac all the way to deployment into the app store. So I gotta ask you about, I'll see a topic that's always delicate with front-end guys because it's really, and more of an issue on the enterprise side, and that's security, right? So content security policy is really important. John Berghoff just tweeted 30 seconds ago, it's the only security session at fluent conference on content security. Not many people are here. Bluehost cares about security. Obviously, probably worse for Bluehost, but security is an issue, right? I mean, how does that factor in? Is that kind of down the road? Is it a do-over? I mean, how do you look at that piece? It's not really on the radar. So, oh, that's a great question. And actually, in terms of content security policy, one of my teammates is doing a talk on Chrome packaged apps in about 20 minutes, and he will talk about content security policy. And CSP is definitely one of those content, is named for Collins. Yeah, and he'll be actually doing a talk right here in Continental Ballroom before. Well, we should get him on, Todd, on theCUBE. Yeah, yeah, definitely interesting to have him talk. Well, there's a big issue, right? It's one of those things where it's like, you have to address it to kind of check the box, but there's philosophy involved, right? You have a lot of IO going on to the server side. That's where the data is. Absolutely, and we get that. I mean, that comes in, if you're using KendoUI Mobile to build an app and you're targeting the browsers, obviously you have the same security considerations that you do for building any other kind of web app. But you have a similar consideration if you're packaging that up with Cordova and submitting it into the app stores. And it's really a matter of, as a DevTools company, one of the things that we pay a lot of attention to is anything that we can do to make that tooling story, especially on mobile, better for a developer to worry. It is turnkey out of the box. They don't have to worry about those types of things. We want to build it in the platform. We're going to build it in the framework. And there's things around security that we have upcoming, things that we're working on, kind of behind the scenes. But by and large, that's something that has always been at the forefront of what we're doing on the mobile space and on the web space as well. So I got to ask you about Microsoft. Obviously, Microsoft's big presence in the enterprise. What do you tell the folks out there that are in the enterprise side? Because there's a lot of mobile, big bring your own device to work. Again, some security issues, kind of. We don't want to talk about that now. But enterprise clients, they need to have mobile apps. Everyone who has an iPad, we've been hearing this for now two years, make this work on the network. And so you're starting to see that migration. You've done some things. Now it's more, okay, I want to roll out BYOD, bring your own device to work. And I got to hear them to work on that. So what is your advice to enterprises when they come to you and say, hey, I want to quickly turn up some mobile apps to drive my business? I think this is really a sweet spot for us for Kendo UI Mobile. So Kendo UI Mobile is a key piece of Kendo UI. We have Kendo UI Web, DataViz for SPG-based charts and graphs and visualizations, and then Kendo UI Mobile. And Kendo UI Mobile is an adaptive rendering framework that actually gives you a native-looking feel on iOS, Android, Windows Phone, and BlackBerry devices. And so it's really a matter of writing one set of markup, one set of HTML, one set of JavaScript, and then our framework will detect the device and render something that looks like an iOS app on an iPhone or an iPad. It looks like an Android app on an Android. And so when you're in that environment of bring your own device, what you're doing is you're building an app for your customers that is one code base that your dev team has to maintain, but something that feels more comfortable to all of your users, even in the enterprise, because it feels like they're other Android apps. And they wrap in development too, right? And you can go fast. And this is one of those areas where it's not, you don't have to worry about having four dev team because you're not Facebook and you don't have a billion dollars lying around. Or they might want to go native on maybe one or two apps, not 20. Absolutely, absolutely. Right, exactly. So they can pick a choose. And there's a lot of internal apps where this is a great... And that's the Kendo UI? That's Kendo UI, yeah. So Kendo UI Mobile is that. And what's the website? It's actually kendoui.com. Kendo, K-E-N-D-O, yeah, UI.com. Great, okay. Check that out. We're here at the Fluent Conference. This is Silicon Angles theCUBE. We go out to the events, start to see them from the noise. Go to siliconangle.com and you'll see the blog posts about this event. Also go to O'Reilly Media. They have great content on their site. They're also live streaming. And if you wanna see the videos after all the miss some interviews, go to youtube.com slash siliconangle and you'll see all the videos up there. My final question for you is, as you peruse the event here and you're out pioneering and plowing the fields of the future, what are the things that are gonna, what shoes are gonna drop in the next five years? Obviously this is explosive. There's no doubt about it. JavaScript's gonna be around. You talked about jQuery and other things. It's gonna mature pretty fast. What are some of the things you see happening in the next five years for developers that they should be watching, concerned about participating in? I think the biggest is to pay attention to the fact that the web is continuing to propagate everywhere. We talked a little bit about JavaScript being on the server and in the database. There's also this trend of the web making its way onto platforms. Windows 8 is a great example of this. Windows 8 is the only platform where you can build a JavaScript-based app and a C-sharp-based app and they look identical to an end user and that's actually a full-on platform app. What Mozilla is doing with Firefox OS is the same thing with Firefox OS. You actually now have basically the web browser as the operating system. Chrome's doing the same thing with Chrome OS and so I think that's the biggest thing for developers to pay attention to is that the open web is not about the web browser anymore. It's about all devices. I asked Sergey Brin when he launched Chrome. Is it an operating system? He had a twinkle in his eye. This was in 2008. So again, we make the right predictions here. But this was pretty obvious. Android was right around the corner. You could just connect the dots. You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to say, hey, you got to go native in the browser. The web is a platform. That's it for all devices. Yeah, and I think this is changing the game. You mentioned Windows 8. I mean, Microsoft Monopoly was based upon having an operating system in apps that run on top of it. You take that operating system away and distribute it with open source. You now have an interesting market dynamic. That's playing a lot into this, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah, very much so. And losing a little bit of that stronghold has actually caused them to innovate a bit more. It's great. I mean, get your backs up against the wall and you feel like you have to do some new things. That benefits developers. Yeah, I mean, I think Microsoft, I mean, my assessment of Microsoft following them since I was a first generation in the industry with them is that they start getting their breakfast eaten and now a little bit of their lunch and they realize that if this path, open source is going to eat their lunch and then ultimately their dinner. So I think they're pretty stoked that they have to move quickly. Absolutely, and I've been impressed with the work that they've done. You've seen a lot more Microsoft teams making their way into GitHub, contributing to communities, getting involved in Node.js. The things that they've been adding to Azure for non-windows-based operating, you can run a Linux box in Azure now. Five years ago, that would have been unthinkable. Brandon Satshrip, guru, who's done a lot of JavaScript on the platform side. Great discussion about your Microsoft work you've done and also in the standards as well, Microsoft. Don't let the market eat your lunch and dinner. Keep up the good work. We're looking forward to seeing more success there and on the open source side as well. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest. I'm John Furrier from SiliconANGLE and I'm with Jeff Frick and we'll be right back with our next guest after the short break.