 Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to another fireside chat. This time we're talking with Victoria Koo who is a Senior Product Manager at Airbnb. Victoria, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. Now I'm very excited to dive into all things product management and we're also going to be diving a little bit, well mostly into product manifesto which is our exciting new project. If you haven't checked out product manifesto yet, head to the link that's floating somewhere above our heads, productmanifesto.com. We're going to be diving into that today. Very excited to share more details. So Victoria, first of all, I would love to learn a little bit more about your personal story. How did you get started in product and what has your journey been like? Yeah, so I actually about eight to ten years ago started a health tech company before, a health tech startup and this was like before health tech became a thing in the pandemic. So it was very challenging, but I learned so much from it. That's ironically when I quit corporate as well. And did that for about three years, really building the product myself, being every part of the product. And then realizing that I needed employment and financial, I needed some financial help. So I was able to join Airbnb about like seven years ago and did kind of the same thing where I was building venture products, really like new products at Airbnb and trying to like create users, really understand the user base who I was working for. And yeah, it's been a journey since then where now I'm a payments product manager. Right. And what does a payments product manager involve? What's like a typical day to day like for you, if there is such a thing, which of course there isn't? Well, there's lots of meetings. But payments product manager is very specialized in the world of payments. There are some aspects of product management that are generalizable, such as like what we'll talk about today, like understanding the problem, generating solutions. And payments is the industry. So there's a lot of specialized information about what goes on in the back end. So what happens when you swipe a credit card? When you use e-wallets, how does that work? What about crypto? Those kind of like industry specific questions like how guests will pay for a trip at Airbnb are my area of expertise at Airbnb. Amazing. So let's dive right into product manifesto, which is like the main menu of the day. How did you get started with product manifesto? What was it that really drew you to the project? Yeah, I've been really lucky where I've had amazing mentorship and really great teachers over the years teaching me how to do product management the correct way. There is like the day to day that we see and observe. And then there's also the more strategic, more visionary aspect of product management that in my opinion really requires like good mentorship, good leadership and teaching. And so I'm lucky that I had those teachers. My mentor at Airbnb was arguably one of the best product managers in the industry and she taught me almost everything that I know. And I wanted to impart some of that knowledge back to the community and be able to basically give back to the community what she gave to me in every single way that I learned. So whether it was communication, whether it was how to handle crises or like even just the expectations of a good strong product manager. I wanted that to be documented and the product manifesto is a great way to do that. Just while we're on the topic of mentorship because this is a question that we get quite a lot. How would you recommend someone goes about getting a mentor if there's not like a mentor-mentee relationship that happens organically through work? How do you go about like accessing that kind of relationship? Yeah, that's a great question and there are several ways. And I'd love to like take a step back really quickly and say that in any good career you require a mentor for teaching and also a sponsor for someone who's managing your career. And so specifically for mentorship, which is learning how to do the job really well. It could be organic such as having questions, like having really deep thoughtful philosophical questions and really knowing the right person to ask those questions too. So if you notice that someone's very strong in product management, right? Able to influence has the ability to think critically and be listened to in times of crisis and in times of planning. That person could potentially be a great mentor and I would start out just by asking them questions. Another way is also just being really frank and saying, hey, I would love to meet with you one on one, you know, maybe every other week or so as like a mentor-mentee relationship that way I can learn from you. Both are good strategies, but really it comes down to good product leadership is often busy. So like having the right questions set up to ask them and getting their guidance so that you're not, so that you're using the time wisely. So again, similar to the topic of mentorship, let's take another few steps back back to the Agile Modesto, which was sort of the original mentorship document, I guess, that taught the tech industry how to do tech, how to do products in the modern day. Obviously if it was perfect for the here and now, we wouldn't need product manifesto. So for you, what do you think are maybe some of the gaps in the Agile manifesto that makes it not quite perfect for modern product managers? Yeah, I think in my day-to-day experience, while Agile is like a great framework, I've noticed that it can fall apart when you're working in a large cross-functional organization. And that's because the complexity and like the, I guess, interoperability, the dependency on other teams is very high and you're very dependent on them but also implement the same frameworks for Agile. And that's not always the case, right? Like especially during hyper growth, someone might be using Trello, someone might be using Gira, and that kind of interoperability doesn't exist. But that's kind of an area where I see Agile kind of failing. Another area is also if not everybody is working on the complete Agile framework in that maybe some people are working on this project and some people are working on that project, you're not truly adhering to Agile. You're kind of having this hybrid model and so the timing of how to complete and execute projects is also dependent on everybody working under the same exact framework. So hybrid models, they just tend to be a little bit more challenging and I'd say that the impact is that culture can be impacted, people can be frustrated and at worst it can also create attrition. Absolutely. So what would you say is some of the other major challenges that product managers face that perhaps the guidance from the manifesto could help to solve a little bit? Yeah, one of the more obvious areas I see is just like sometimes in companies the stakeholders that you work with don't know how to work with product managers. There's this kind of like this understanding that like you're there and maybe you're in a project manager role or maybe like you take on the program manager role or even like you start out with the product ownership role which is more day to day and so there's not this like heavy utilization of the potential of product management which is like vision setting, strategy, right? Like really understanding the problem and creating like the structure of success for teams to move forward with. And so I think like that's an area where it can be frustrating for product managers especially new ones when they come into an environment and let's say an end manager is just like, great, can you go sort all the bugs? And it's like, yes, absolutely, I can do that. But let me show you what else I can do, right? So that's like one area. I'd say another area is just like the career aspect can be also challenging if you don't know how to manage a career. Product management is inherently like a generalist role, you know, like at worst you're kind of like plugging all the cracks in the dam and at the best you're like leading the team forward almost like a general manager or even mini CEO as well, you know, janitor as well. But I would say that managing a career can be challenging because it's such a general role and really knowing how to like think about the role like from the one year mark, the three year mark and the five year mark is important. So I guess one of the things that it's part of the beauty of product management is also one of the challenges is how much ambiguity there is about the role where it means it's open to interpretation, but it also means, oh God, it's open to interpretation, nothing sense. Do you see the ambiguity of product management? Is that something that's going to sort of continue to be a huge benefit to product managers or is it something, I guess, is product management going to become a little bit more defined as it continues to grow? Will people eventually stop asking everyone if they're project managers? That's a great question. And I would say that like over time, especially when there are frameworks like, you know, agile and product manifesto being created, the role of a product manager will probably be more structured. You see this because startups have more of this like fluid role of like the product manager, but then in corporate, you see more of a structured like sometimes there are APM or associate product manager roles that like lead into product leadership roles. So I would say that it's going to get more structured, but I do think that a little bit of like maintaining the ambiguity is actually beneficial for everyone. Part of a general roles like strength is being able to capture a wide variety of talent. So people with all sorts of backgrounds, people who aren't like necessarily trained as product managers from the get go. These people will all find that ambiguity to be very attractive and be able to come into the industry with a fresh perspective and learn what they need to learn, but also contribute what like what they've been trained to do in a completely different environment. And how would you say what if we can give like everyone a little sneak peek of what's coming up in the manifesto without giving it all away? How would how would you say that the manifesto lends itself to that, that being open to interpretation and that ambiguity? Because we don't want to sort of come out with like Moses with the commandments and say, you must do A, B and C and then you're a product manager. How does the manifesto manage to balance that guidance and that mentorship without also being, you know, that A, B and C list and things you need to do? Yeah, for sure. And yeah, being dogmatic is not like a great thing. I think what the product manifesto aims to do is to create structure in a in a chaotic and, you know, artistic creative environment. And so initially as like a new product manager, that's when you need the structure the most. So like if you do need to have an understanding of what the pillars for success are, then you have an area that you can look to. And if you know it and need a refresher, you also have an area that you can fall back on and be like, what was what was that one principle that I needed to like, read up on during, you know, during crises, right? What is that one framework that like that person used during this crisis? And then if you're a senior product manager really understanding like where to leverage during, during specific scenarios. So I guess like if I could summarize that it's really about understanding what principles you need to employ under which scenarios as a new product manager, right? You'll like eat that up. You'll listen to everything that everyone's saying. You'll be essentially tuning your mental models to understand like what every framework is and over time you'll utilize certain principles to your advantage. And I think that's what the product manifesto really aims to do. And speaking of the principles, is there any particular principle that you would say is I guess maybe not your favorite but one which you find yourself implementing in your day to day? Yeah, absolutely. I would say, you know, this is this is a very obvious one, but it also needs to be said, you know, a strong foundational element of product management is understanding the problem. And as like people who love to be problem solvers, which I think anyone in product and really anyone in Silicon Valley is, there is this rush to create the solution, because that's fun that's creative, right? But really articulating the problem is the root of all success and it can be forgotten, right? It can be glossed over. So like the great part of product manifestos, that's where we start, right? Really understanding the problem. And from there, where do we go? Once you understand the problem, then any number of solutions that you generate could fix the problem if you understood it like completely. And that that's kind of one of those basic principles that sounds really easy. But it's but it's quite hard to do, especially when it when it comes down to like timing and resources. Yeah. Yeah, and we've talked a little bit already about how there is no right way and wrong way to do product management as it's open to interpretation for everyone. But you know, we say that but sometimes there is a wrong way to do product management. This is a segue into my next question. Are there any mistakes that you've made throughout your career that you wish you could go back and say like Victoria, don't do that. Absolutely. And it's a rite of passage, right? Like I think like the mistakes and like the failures are there what help you learn and they have helped me become the product manager that I am today and able to give back to the community, the experience that I've gained. And so I would say that there's this I guess a deference to the problem right like as a new product manager. I absolutely burned myself out trying to take too much on right I was trying to plug all the holes in the dam like I thought the better product manager was more problems I could solve on my own. And what happened was like I had at that time the scenario was that we were undergoing hyper growth at Airbnb. I was without an end manager partner and so I had started taking on the role of that end manager in addition to my role as a product manager. And there are only so many hours in a day. I was doing way too much. And so I ended up not realizing that I had inadvertently taken on so much and I had no time in my calendar. And I was kind of like taking on the emotional weight as well of being a people manager to some to some degree. And I burned myself out. And once you're in burnout, it's very difficult to come back. You know, it's not so much like take a vacation and come back in your heel. You know, it really affects your psyche. And so that was a poignant lesson from then on I had to take a step back and be like, okay, what's expected of me. Here's the strategy that I'm going to use. I'm going to deviate from my strategy under these scenarios. This is where I can be adaptive. And this is where I can be a little bit more rigid. And then really hold myself to those goals that I set for myself and not rush head in with a solution without understanding the problem. Yeah, that's a very poignant lesson. I think that one can be used by anyone, like not just product managers. Burnout is real. And I'm glad that I had that lesson early on. It's definitely real. And I think the worst part of burnout is how it's like that's changing in like recent recent history. We all went through that phase where like stress meant success where more tired you were the more hours you were working. It was like, it means I'm important. If I'm doing like it means that I matter. Now we're sort of de glamorizing stress a little bit. So how, how would you say what's the best way to recognize the signs of burnout before you're so deep in it that you're having to like roll your way out? What's, what's the difference between like regular stress or like we're just about to launch things are a bit hectic. What's the difference in that kind of stress and burnout? How can people recognize the signs and like in the bud? Yeah, I would say one of the first signs that I started noticing was like a feeling of dread. So like on Fridays and Saturdays, I'd be so relieved. But then on Sundays, I would have this like slight feeling of like, oh, I don't want Mondays to come. You know, like, oh, that means I have to go to work. I'm not ready to face the day. You know, I don't feel capable to handle like the stress that feeling of dread really snuck up on me. And now when I start feeling that I'm like, oh, okay, like there's a sign. That's my body telling me that like we need to create some changes. So I would start with that. I would also say that like another feeling is a feeling of injustice. And that was very specific to me. Burnout is not like you said, it's not that feeling of productivity where you're like, oh my God, not enough hours of the day, but like I'm enjoying this so much. Right. Burnout is like, I can't do this, but I am somehow being forced somewhere, either myself or circumstances, but somewhere there is a push and I'm digging against the gravel. Right. Like, I would say that that feeling of injustice or lack of control is also one to keep track of because if it's just like a weekend or if it's just like a week, that's not a big deal. But over time, that one will eat away at you and that one's dangerous because it's very hard to come back from that in a healthy way. It's the whole is more difficult to crawl out of than it is willing to for sure. Well, while we're thinking about like how to balance things and you mentioned already that you had a habit of like grabbing onto too many different things and diving in head first. You've been helping us to build the product manifesto alongside your day job. What has that process been like how have you like portioned out the time to join the working group and build this thing. Yeah. So it's been great to actually meet other people in the industry. What I love is collaborating with all of the different players of the product manifesto. So Mike is leading this from Facebook and you know having like the working session was actually really fun because you're getting to share like how you think with other industry leaders. And so I would say that that that kind of discovery like leaning into that discovery and stimulation that's like different from your day job has been really rewarding. I would also add I'm actually a first time mom and I have a newborn at home. It's been challenging in the sense of I'm like oh boy, like how does one juggle this. Yeah, but like kind of leaning into that side of myself like I'm in this case I get to use my business hat again I get to use it in a way that's not for work and not completely as a mother but I'm working on something that's important to me. It makes me a healthy human right it makes me stimulated and it's if I can't lean into a session I'll have to be really obvious and I'll have to say upfront like I can't do it at this hour. But what I can do is work asynchronously if you're okay with that and setting expectations. So that's how you know that's kind of how you manage expectations as well and keep yourself healthy and prevent burnout. Well congratulations on being as well by the way. Yes I think one of the things that's been so fun for us in working with this working group and buildings manifesto is how everyone loves it everyone's really enjoying it. So I guess my next question would be what are some of the things what will be your main takeaways once the manifesto is launched and it's out there and it's in the hands of the people. What will be your main takeaways having been one of the people like in the room when it was being built or one of the people building it. Yeah I would say that like all important things it's not going to be like 100% successful from the get go right. The great thing about going from zero to one is you get to see people react to something that you've been a part of and that's really amazing and it can be very scary as well. But that's the important thing is that like iterative cycles are important for product manifesto and we're starting with like version one but I suspect there's going to be like, you know, thousands of versions by the end of a few years where people are contributing their experience and contributing their opinions backed by data. And so that's the important thing I think that's the part that's really exciting as we're just starting. And it's going to be an awesome journey to see the manifesto change with the times and update itself and be contributed on by like thousands in the community. And another one of the really cool things about how we've been building the manifesto is that we've been doing it very publicly like the roadmap fully available for on the website for anyone to go and take a peek at what we're doing. It's all very like open windows everywhere. What has it been like building something that we're treating like a product in front of an audience of product people because I imagine it's a little bit like having to cook a meal for Gordon Ram. Yeah, it's so it's been exciting in the sense where like obviously the principles are meant to be generalizable. And we're not trying to be dogmatic, you know, like it we're trying to create structure from chaos. But at the same time, like those that are I love that those who are really experienced have been giving their opinion on like this, you know, this seems a little too general or this doesn't seem valuable when you put it like this or this needs like a little bit more detail in order for it to be more useful. And I love that feedback because it's, you know, it's important details matter but at the same time, you know, unless you're in the weeds, right, you can't like it's not wise to give advice that's like to detail right. So in that sense, you know product manifesto it has, it has a lot of potential and it's been really exciting to start from there. And one of the one of the not very common but one of the misconceptions about resources for product managers is that they're often geared towards entry level product managers sort of your first few years of products or even how to get your first job in products. But I know one of the main goals of the manifesto is to be not just all product managers but everyone involved in product it really is all encompassing. How do you think the manifesto achieves that for being useful for entry level mid level seniors CEOs entrepreneurs like how does it manage that. Absolutely, there are questions in there that aim to address like leveling and like the problems that you you would solve in different levels like for example starting up an organization. Right, that's something that a more senior product manager would definitely need a bit more like if they needed more guidance that would be an area where they could tap into. There's also the managing of the career. I said that's like one of the challenges before of a product manager. You know, initially there's a lot of resources to learning the day to day but like, once you get to a more senior level where you're your tasks with like creating a five year plan and a strategy that goes with it and like, oh yeah, how do you execute right given that there are, you know, less resources or different timing structures right and so those are more complex problems that the principles also aim to solve. And really great product managers have opined on those principles so I encourage everyone to read those if you're curious. But yeah, the questions do address different levels. And so it's really exciting that that the product manifesto can be comprehensive in that way. That means for all of you watching there's no excuse, you do need to go click that link. So I'm so good at promotion. So we are winding down to our last few minutes which means I've sadly only got time for a couple more questions. Usually in this I ask as my last question what are you hopeful for in the future of product management. But I think because the manifesto is it's going to be so much more impactful outside of product management as well as product management of course I want to alter my question a little bit. What are you the most hopeful for for the future of the tech industry. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I think so what I'm most hopeful for is with the structurizing of like the chaos, which is in general a good thing. I think too much structure can be bad but we're not there yet right but we're in the beginning stages where I think if we have just a little bit more structure we're really empowering the players of the tech industry to like truly create solutions. And when we're talking like not covering the symptoms of like problems that everyday humans have, but truly creating solutions that everyday humans have and making life better for everyone. I think San Francisco and Silicon Valley and people in the tech industry in general are really set up well to do that, like people want to do that, but creating that structure will empower them to be even better at their jobs. And maybe in 10, you know, 20 years, we'll see like the quality of life really increase for everyday people. You know I say that because like while we're in a pandemic while everything's going on in the world, it can be easy to be discouraged by where we are like I see this as a two steps forward and a one step back sort of scenario and with the product manifesto and actions like that in the tech industry. Maybe we'll be like four or five steps forward in the future and seeing like just that optimism really makes me want to do my job even better and more furiously. I want to get us to that world where you know like the future is super empowering and people, their lives are better and there's like less inequality and you know, I think that might be a bit principle then maybe naive but I think that we can truly get there. No, I think in a pandemic I think I think a bit of optimistic naivety. I think that's something we all need. What a fantastic and hopeful note to end on. Thank you so much. You've been a dream guest. I'm sure everyone had as much fun as I did. Probably not because I'm the one that got to it. I had a lot of fun. But anyway, that is very sadly all the time we have today. Victoria, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me and you know, product school, you guys are doing a great job. I really appreciate being a part of it. Oh, thank you. I didn't even tell her to say that she said. So thank you again everyone for joining us taking the time out of your day. As I said, go click that link product manifesto check it out. It's going to be so much fun. It's coming to you very soon and we will see you all very soon again in the next fireside chat. Bye.