 Let me see. Christopher, would you be able to lead us in prayer today please? Okay, not sure if Christopher is able to hear us. Yeah, okay, okay Charles, you can go ahead please. Thank you. Thank you so much for your love. Thank you so much for your care. But most importantly, we thank you that we are part of your body, the church. Now that we are set to continue to learn more about what we are in you as your body, the church, and the local church, most importantly, I pray that you will continue to give us more insights, help our lecture, and help us keep us safe, give us steady connection so that in all, your name will be glorified. Please ask your name, if you don't believe me. Thank you. Thank you Charles. Okay, so this class we were studying about the purpose of the local church, the origin of the local church, so we have completed most of that section. We were only, we had that last chapter remaining, which is about church code principles. And I had also asked you to watch Dr. Yongecho's videos, if you have watched it, then I think you probably have enjoyed a more exciting version that, you know, my narration of these principles that he shares along with specific examples from his own life. And we've seen some of the keys that he has given for church growth. So today we will complete this chapter and then we will move on to the next chapters here in the house of God, or the local church. So as a pastor and a leader, you know, some of the foundational things need to be in place. It's only then that, you know, we can build on it, we can invite people to build together. So things like vision, desire, faith, you know, all of these are very, very important for a leader. And in the principles, we had touched upon our close fellowship with the Holy Spirit. And we said that, you know, not just with respect to a church and ministry with regard to the church, but every aspect of life originates from our fellowship with the Holy Spirit, isn't it? That strength that we get, the leading of the spirit. And more so when we are leading a church, so that Koinonia and partnership, Koinonia, which is the fellowship and partnership with the Holy Spirit is very, very important for us. And in the last class, you know, I stopped at this four step process of incubation. I am on page 43 in the House of God APC publication, yeah, APC publication. So if you can open it, open to that and listen along, I think that will be great. So right now I am on page 43, and it starts off with the four step process. So Dr. Cho shares how in close communion with the Holy Spirit. And he has several teachings on the Holy Spirit, where he says that it's not just about reaching out to the Holy Spirit for the things that he has to offer for the power that he has to offer to us. But it's about learning to do life with the Holy Spirit the way we relate to a human being. And, you know, he shares the example of a married couple and he says how, you know, they interact in order to learn from each other, understand, share responsibilities. So many reasons why they have to communicate. So in that way, he shares how a fellowship with the Holy Spirit is key in birthing the work of God. And when we have that deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit, he communicates right from the depths of God's heart to us and we know one of the works of the Holy Spirit is to reveal. So revelation, bring revelation and throw light on what God wants us to know. And that's how we are able to receive from the Holy Spirit. So he talks about this four step process where through our relationship with the Holy Spirit, we can receive his ideas and then we can sort of give birth to it. So he calls it incubation. So here he has listed it out and he says that the first thing is intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit and in faith. So from that place, things get birthed. Now God will put certain things in our hearts but we are also ready to receive it. The second thing he writes about is once we receive from God, you know, what he wants us to do. You know, that idea or that intention from God's heart is put into our hearts. The next step would be for us to ask for clear-cut objectives. So we would ask God for more specific things like, okay, God, you know, what does the timeline look like and what does the goal look like. So you kind of break it down, whatever plan God has given you break it down with specifics and seek God and, you know, wait upon the Lord to be inspired by him to get those details. So first thing is God puts his purpose, his plan into our hearts. Second, we ask him for specifics so that we can move forward with it. Then once we have those things, we pray for assurance, okay, because we are clear that it has come from God and God has given us the details of how to do what he has called us to do. So we pray for the assurance that, okay, God, I want that peace in my heart. I want to know that you are in this, you are leading me, you will provide for me and, you know, that I will be able to accomplish what you have asked me to do. And finally, you know, once you have that sense of being assured or confident, you begin to thank God. You begin to believe it completely because you've received what God has spoken to you. So you can release it in the form of declarations or the words that we speak. So basically, whatever I've shared just now, it's what we have learned even in prayer and intercession, the way we pray a believing prayer. This is how we do it, isn't it? First, we know the will of God. And in this case, Dr. Chow talks about receiving from the Holy Spirit. So obviously we know the will of God from his word and the Holy Spirit can give us more specifics about what we must do in any area of our lives. And then you move on, you move on to getting the details, making the plan and having the confidence and giving thanks to God for what he's going to do through your life. And this, what Dr. Chow is recommending, you know, we've also seen this in the life of Abraham. So Romans 4 is a wonderful example where Abraham, God gave Abraham a promise. So Abraham was in fellowship with God, unlike a lot of people during his time. So God spoke to Abraham and God revealed to Abraham his purpose, how he will have descendants, how those descendants will be greater than the number of stars in the sky. The sand of the sea shore and God also gave him the specifics, right? Like 400 years, the descendants, they would go into captivity and then they will come out of captivity. So a lot of details. So Abraham kind of knew which way God is leading him. And one very specific promise that God gave him was the birth of his son, Isaac, right? Because only from there, all this was to be fulfilled. And then we read about Abraham, how he was confident against all odds. God gave him that assurance. By faith, he stood firm on the word of God and he saw the fulfillment of God's word, you know, not quickly. It took, you know, 25 years for him to see the fulfillment. But we noticed the journey once this truth was put inside him, God's plan was put inside him. And he went through all these stages. And we also read about him in Romans 4, thanking God, praising God well before Isaac arrived. And finally, when Abraham had done all these things and Dr. Cho calls this incubation, when you go through this process and you're waiting on the Lord and finally it happens, right? Finally the dream comes to pass. You give birth. In other words, incubation, you give birth to the promises of God by going through this process. And here we should also understand that especially planting a church, raising the church, leading the church, this is a spiritual activity. So with our skills that we may have or some of the principles or marketing strategies, there can be things out there that can help us do the work of God. So we don't want to belittle those things, but the work of God must be birthed from the word and the spirit. It's a spiritual activity and the vision has to come from God. And we have to carry on with God. So there is that need to remember that we are engaging in something that is coming from God. And it's only God who's going to lead us ahead in this church planting work and building up the church. So that is something Dr. Cho shares with us incubating by fellowshiping with the Holy Spirit. He also talks about how when we are leading a church, we must remember that we are not just going with emotions because it can happen. Sooner or later you settle into certain formats and we might get comfortable there and think this is it. This is how we do churches, how we lead people. But he shares from his life how very early on like he himself was healed of TB and after that he started sharing the word. He started going out to slums and preaching. And when he saw the needs of people, you know, some extreme dire need, the Holy Spirit really committed his heart and said, look, these are the kind of people that I want you to preach to and they are in need. They are in spiritual need. And so when they're in spiritual need, they need to know about the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ. They need to know about forgiveness. They need to know spiritual realities and, you know, they're in physical need. So they need healing. They need finances. They need so many things. They need spiritual blessings as well as physical material blessings. So when you preach to them, this is what God put on his heart. When you preach to them, don't preach for the sake of preaching. Don't share for the sake of sharing, but preach to demonstrate the power of God because there is a need for people to experience the power of God. Preach to meet the needs of the people and preach to release the blessings of God. So he shares about how he was very intentional in the way he went about preaching, the way he went about imparting into the lives of the people. And he also saw that change. He saw that change as he was ministering to the people. So the point he's making is that when we are ministering, there has to be life transformation. If it's just about, you know, doing an activity, running the church and having a big church and we're just happy with those kind of outcomes, it sounds good, but ultimately are the people being impacted? Are there spiritual needs met? He talks about prosperity of spirits, soul and body where they are blessed in every way. Are the people being blessed in every way? That's the question we need to ask. And when we do that, when we minister in that manner, God's people experience, you know, who God is in their lives. And that kind of, from there on, they too will propagate the gospel. They too will demonstrate the gospel through their lives. So it's important to impact lives. It's important to see life transformation as part of church ministry. Then he talks about equipping and engaging believers in ministry. Now, when we talked about, you know, the structure in the church, we said that there were deacons who were chosen and then eventually, you know, the pastor's role became important. So even in the early church, believers were ministering. So it was not just one person, but you see various roles, elders, you had elders. And then as you study about the people who worked along with Paul, he writes to so many co-workers, fellow workers in Christ Jesus. So a lot of people, believers engaging in ministry and that's nothing new. So Dr. Cho shares how we must equip believers. We must engage believers in the ministry. It's not just the work of the senior pastor. So what he started doing is he started engaging cell leaders and cell groups are a very huge part of his church. And he talks about how the cell leaders are kind of the main people in the church who take care of the people, who spiritually and even, you know, their material needs, whatever that might be. They visit, they spend time with families. So they take care of the people really well. And in addition to that, they are the ones who also engage in evangelism. So cell leaders have a very, very important part to play in the church, in the order of the Gospel church. So this shows us that people, no matter what, you know, capacity they're at, depending on the grace that God has given them, you know, each one can engage in the work of the ministry. And this is how the church grows. It's not just by the pastor or the leaders doing the work, but the whole church with all their, you know, gifts and grace and abilities engaging together that you actually go ahead and win more people. So there's a lot more said about the cell groups here where, you know, he says that, in fact, the pastor himself, right, he's not able to do much, step out and do much, visit people and all that. But the church started multiplying, exploring in numbers because of the cell group leaders. Okay. And yeah, actually, in his book, his sharing in the seminar, he shares how many of them are women, okay, many of them are women, but he and the leadership, they encourage them and said, you can do this and equip them. So once they equip them, it was wonderful. So they had the confidence to step out and then they were impacting so many lives and the church just started growing in numbers. So that's a little bit about engaging every believer. And here there is a review written by one of one theology student and she shares about how, you know, this church, even though it's a large church, you can see the work of the spirit, you can see the life transformation in those who attend that church, the services are very vibrant, they are relevant. Okay. And that though it's a large church, you know, there's something special about what's going on there. And Dr. Cho says that, you know, it's the work of the Holy Spirit. So as he is working in partnership with the Holy Spirit, you can see the demonstration of that power in the house of God or in the church, in his local church. So these are the principles that he has put across. Any, any, okay, I was just going to, yeah, yeah, and yeah, Christopher, that's okay, no problem, no problem. Yes, Samuel, please go ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor. Yeah, thank you. So I had this thought even before I forgot to mention about it. But I think this whole idea of so when we look at churches, we are looking at successful churches, young churches and even I think you can see also is an aspirational church. Most of the creatures that we see on YouTube, anyone, you know, who's successful. So what we see is where they are their current status, you know, from how God started and use them. I think the big lesson for me and I think for most of us in this generation where, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a time of instant gratification. We order something online today, we expect it to come by tomorrow. Yesterday. Yeah, and yeah, you know, we hate buffering time, all of that. So instant access and everything is instant. So I think the preparation time, you know, I think it was in Basta Ashish's book on fulfilling like the greater the purpose, the greater the preparation time or something along those lines. Yeah, yeah. So, I don't know if, if there is an opportunity for you to share with us or discuss, you know, the middle journey. So from the time, okay, you know, God used Basta Ashish in this year and planted this church. And today the church is this big, but in between that struggle, you know, ups and downs. Like I remember, you know, once I think it was the Mangalore Church and I used to worship at ABC Central then. Basta would finish his sermon and even before the worship team could finish, he would just quietly, you know, from the back door, he would go to, I think he had a flight to Mangalore Church. So that, I think, you know, spending a little time on the struggle where it's not always like, you know, God will call you and there's incubation in this calling, but from there on it's not like tomorrow you'll have a congregation of 2,000, 3,000, because I think, I don't know if there are a lot of stories, I think there are, but if these stories don't come in either way, pastors have started big. But then because, you know, I think the foundation is not strong or something is missing. You know, you start big, you make a lot of noise, but then like a soda thing just dies off. I don't know if you have examples of that, but to draw lessons from those instances where how it's up and down process and how to especially sail through rough waters, especially when it comes to church planting. I don't know, I know Rupa, Sister Rupa has a church here on the church. One of us who run the church is, I think Prabhakar runs a church, but to listen to those stories where, you know, on day, year one, we have 40 congregation members, but year two, it suddenly comes down to 10 or 12. And what do you do then? Do you think of closing the church or do you push on and how do you, so along those lines. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, thank you and yes, that's true. The incubation is the state where you receive, you hear from God as to what he wants you to do and how he wants you to step out, but then there's the doing, right. So these are two separate things. One is to get the idea. The second one is to implement the idea. And in both cases, we need that fellowship with the Holy Spirit. And no wonder Dr. Cho talked about faith, right, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. So, faith is required because things may not happen overnight as Samuel pointed out. I know in the case of Dr. Cho, I think it took three decades to see like exponential growth in his church. Now, not every pastor can probably say that, you know, I hit thousands and tens of thousands of people in a matter of a decade or things like that. But in the case of Dr. Cho, yes, it was like huge numbers that he's talking about. Now, as we're journeying with God, yes, we do seek expansion, we seek growth and we must really look for it. There's nothing wrong with dreaming of growth and, you know, talking about God's put in, God's put like a billion, a million people in our heart. Then talk about it, pray about it, you know, share the vision with the people and move in that direction. Sooner or later it will happen. But during the journey, right, during the journey, everyone who is in ministry, I'm sure Prabhakar can share with you and even Sister Rupa and myself, right. Myself, I too can share with you, it's never been easy. It's never been easy. There are times you start off ecclesially when I started off serving at the North Church. I mean, Pastor Ashish, he used to come as well. So I used to minister whenever he rosters me, but then I would kind of oversee in some other activities as well. So he would come, preach and go. And during those days, I remember I thought when I start, when I start preaching, you know, the numbers will just go up and then there'll be lots of people. But for a couple of years, you know, there was a certain number, something like 50 or something. And then it just stayed at that. It just stayed at that no matter what our team tried to do in the North location. And there's also many reasons for that, because it's somewhat in the interior. And, you know, only now, like you have a lot of families shifting to that area and colleges and students, you know, coming and choosing this particular area. But back then, it was hard. It was hard. And even if students wanted to come, they were not willing to pay the money to come like inside and attend the church. So there were a lot of challenges. And just to see, you know, the church growing from a certain number to the next number that you're looking for, it was very hard. And to be honest, like, you know, sometimes you're just struggling, you're thinking, God, why is it not happening the way I thought it would happen? But that's where the trust comes in. That's where the faith comes in. I'm just giving you a very simple example from my journey. But I'm sure every pastor, every leader goes through things like this. And yeah, and I remember those days, right? We still meet in a school. We meet in a classroom. It's a lot better now. But those days, you know, sometimes when we plug in stuff that it won't work, I remember early in the morning, we would start off quite early. By around six something, we'll be there, the team will be there, we'll be cleaning up the place, setting it up and on. And pastor also used to come very early because a service starts, a pre-service prayer starts at 8 a.m. So pastor used to come by 7 a.m. and on. And those days when we used to struggle, there were a few volunteers, we would clean everything, we would kind of set up everything. Even pastor would be plugging something in here or something. And then we'd be like, no, no, no, pastor, just wait for the preaching time. You just preach, relax and preach. But even pastor used to help us, okay, can I help with this? Can I help with that? So when I think about things like this, in the background, there's so much of work, there's so much of patience. I don't know how to put in words what the trusting God really means, but yes, Samuel, it is not easy. And as long as you're willing, as long as you know, that's why that incubation is so important, right? Because if you've heard from God, you know it's God, you're willing to kind of give it your everything and keep moving forward even if you don't see immediate results. So yeah, I just thought I would ask Sister Rupa, if you don't mind to share briefly, your experience as a church planter, has it been very, like, have you seen immediate results or how has it been? So once you share, I'll take up Christopher's question here. Yes, Sister, sorry for suddenly asking you to do this. Okay, not able to hear you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. It's somewhat faint, Sister. Yeah, okay, not to worry, maybe in the next session or something, whenever you're comfortable. Yeah, okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Maybe Prabhakar, Prabhakar, do you have anything to share about the struggles of a pastor? New chapter? Yes, pastor. Yeah, briefly, yes. Yes, pastor. So basically, currently I'm just assisting my father-in-law, actually, he's a pastor here. But my ministry experience is like, started actually 22, 23 years ago. When I was in 9th and 10th, literally, when I was in 9th and 10th and in my teens, actually 14, 15 years of age, in that moment, like, God called me for his ministry. That was the first experience I experienced that God is calling. And then a strange thing happened, like, in our own congregation, the congregation was like pastorless. I mean, there was no pastor for a couple of years. So the ministry which we were going, our senior pastor who used to live in the district, he called me and said, Prabhakar, you have to preach. Though I'll lead the congregation, but you have to be the preacher. So I said, pastor, I'm like just 14 or 15 years of age, I don't know. So he just came and he lays his hands on me and said, you have to preach. So from that day onwards, I started like more, you know, what we are learning now, four steps process of incubation. I felt during those moments and started preaching. And by God's grace, it was two complete years. Like, two complete years that the church was like, literally handed over to me. And most importantly, I was, I didn't take in baptism during the time even, but I was poured with the Holy Spirit and God lead me. And then now by coming after that, it was long journey, you know, being with the servants of God, assisting them, 22 years of gospel, translation experience and all that, sharing the podium with pulpit with many servants of God. And then now for the past one and a half years, I've been completely dedicated myself, me and my wife, and we had completely assisting our pastor. So here there are a lot of challenges for us to be honest. And this place is full of non believers and even the people come to the church are very non believers. So there is no exact figures. We can say that this number of people will come this particular week. And during the Corona time, we have struggled a lot. As many people know for four to six months, the church was completely closed. And most of the believers who came newly, they lost their faith. So we have to work, we'll start working on them and again visiting, passing your pastors, visiting them daily. And there are many rallies are coming across here. So every day we have to be more vigilant about our ministries. We can't go out and share the tracks. We can't have the open meetings and all that. So we have to be very vigilant and very, but at the same time, we are very helping to continue the sharing the gospel of God. And we are going to house meetings and one to one step process and all that. So this is the way our ministry is going on. And it's been a wonderful journey by far. And I hope God will take us to new avenues. And I know, I know someday, someday this, this all grace will be converted into testimonies so that the multitudes of crowds will come. So this is our faith in God. Thank you. Thank you so much Prabhakar. So grateful to Prabhakar for that. Thank you for sharing in detail also. So two things Samuel, if you could see, one is the preparation that God takes you through before you step into something. And then once you step into it, you know, there is that struggle of holding on, working towards it, making better decisions. Yeah, all of that comes in later. Preparation, I would say the preparation time is, yeah, I think both sides, there is some sort of preparation happening to prepare you. Yeah, yeah. And just one additional thing I'll just say Samuel, like I feel for me, right, like initially when I stepped into this and I had all these grand dreams of how they're going to preach to thousands of people and your church is going to explode and this and that. But in a way, the initial phase of the journey, it's been so humbling. Like you literally learn to depend on God for the smallest change that you want to see happen. Because you come to this place and you say, God, if you don't do it, you know, like nothing, not a feather will move. And if your blessing is there, yes, only then, you know, that we will see the growth that we're looking forward to and all. So depending on God, God prepares your heart for things like that. And yeah, that's how it is. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Samuel, good question. Thank you. Ah, yes, Christopher. Yeah, please go ahead. You want me? Okay. Ah, yes, yes, Christopher. I saw your hand raised. Yes, yes. I guess it's going to sort of put another perspective on the mix and the mix that I think also exists in India where we have other religions, which are dominating or very dominant and in a sense, you know, Christianity is a minority. So there is obviously, you know, a strong domination of other religions. And my, I mean, I'm just trying to give my perspective of, you know, with the, I mean, which basically plays a part in this challenge is that given that, you know, India has got this already existing, I think there is also a need to look at, you know, the amount of the growth that can potentially happen also in other countries, you know, outside of India, where, you know, that could also add to the growth obviously with, you know, with an online approach and reaching out to other communities and then also setting up churches internationally, which I think may also add to the growth because I'm just coming back to maybe, you know, in a smaller context, you know, where Jesus was not accepted in his home, in a place, but, you know, because of, you know, people who were not willing to listen and not willing to really, you know, believe that Jesus was able to, was really, you know, the Messiah rather, you know, he was just a carpenter's son. That was a little, I mean, a little different, but I think, you know, I think that, you know, India has, you know, has potential, but, you know, it also has got some limitations and I just thought I'll just, you know... Yeah, sure, sure. I see where you're coming from. So, yes, Christopher, I understand that point. We can look at, you know, various options, look at different mission fields and that way we can see growth happen in, you know, different places, not just where we are, but at the same time, Christopher, I'm thinking that, you know, when God gives you a vision and many a time it has to do with the territory, so it's very hard to give up on that territory. And if you ask a lot of church planters, they'll tell you, not everyone very specifically has a territory in their hearts, they might just know that I'm going to plant a church, but many people, they know that God has called them to a certain place, so then it's hard, even if it's difficult to serve in a certain place, it's difficult to kind of let go of this one because the work is not happening the way you imagine and then look at new options. So I think that can be a challenge, but otherwise, yes, I do get your point. Yeah. Yes. So in line with church growth, something that Dr. Cho mentioned in his principles, I forgot to tell us, when we talked about the cell group leaders, one is that the work of God can be done in a teamwork kind of a fashion and at the same time, he gives this example of a fishing net. So if we want to catch one fish, then we will try to use a fishing rod and just get one, but if we're looking at a multitude net breaking catch of fishes, then we have to cast out the net. So in order for us to cast out the net, he talks about having large volunteer teams and having a lot of people in the ministry in the church. So it's only when we do it that way that we can impact more lives and he also shares a little bit about how the most effective way to evangelize is through relationships. So when people have good relationships with others, they can share the gospel and then you have people giving their life to Jesus and being part of the kingdom of God and all of that. But for that, you need a lot of people going and proclaiming the gospel, not just the preacher. So that was one aspect that I missed mentioning. So that again helps the growth of the church. So these are all things for us to think about and ultimately it's us and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit putting in our hearts what he wants us to do and when we're walking with him, we will see the growth happen. All right, so if there are no more additional thoughts or questions, we can just jump to the next section here. Yes, Christopher, please go ahead. One more point I wanted to address was that I think one of the things that is also existing also is that there are many churches and many pastors, many people who are preaching and some of them are small, some of them are really tiny, some of them are growing and my personal view is that sometimes it dilutes the message and it also, in a sense, weakens the overall strength of the churches, particularly when there's sometimes a little bit of infighting and there are back biting and stuff like that as well as there's this pride that this is the number I have and that number is, I have this number and we're talking about growth, we're talking numbers here so I just thought I'll add that perspective also. Okay, thank you Christopher. I'm just trying to do a little calculation over here. Okay, maybe you could do it yourself but what I was looking at is, like India's population is 1.3 billion so even if you take the population of Bangalore and you just try to calculate, I don't know how large the largest church in Bangalore is, I don't know, maybe 10,000 or something so if you take that as the number, as the base number as a so-called large church and you just divide you know Christopher, you can have a lot of large churches in the city itself because there are those many people so again, yes, because there are a lot of churches they already exist but the point I'm making is we can have a lot of churches and a lot of large churches also but yes, the point that you made about unity and kind of growing together, that is important but yeah, there's a lot of work to be done here in our nation okay, so yeah, thank you, thank you for that point anyone else, I think we have only five more minutes left so we could stay on this topic hopefully this country in the world, yeah so India needs a lot of big as well as small churches yes, yes, yeah so I think for pastors as such here, there's no need to be insecure because there are enough and more people that you can reach out to, you can be a blessing to so that's true, Samir, that's true and thank you everyone for staying on a little longer I know our session has gone over time but that's okay, we'll compensate for it so we'll take a 10 minute break right now we'll come back at 10.04 and restart with our next session so take care everybody, let's take a break and we shall be back soon, thank you