 Good morning, good evening, and good afternoon, whatever you are in the world. We are at the UNCCD UN Convention to Combat the Zertification in Bonn, Germany. And with us today is Mr. Ibrahim Tiao, the Executive Secretary of the Convention, and Sadguru, renowned writer, visionary, and influencer of the world. And this morning, I would like to make a very short brief question, close a very short brief question to Mr. Tiao. You have said that what keeps you awake at night is the more than 1.3 billion people who live in the world's dryest parts of the world, because most face tremendous challenges to find the necessities for life, like food and water, because your land is no longer productive. What's more, the productivity is falling dramatically with climate change. Mr. Tiao, what in terms of concrete actions can individuals really do about it? Thank you. First of all, sitting here next to Sadguru is quite encouraging, and of course, I'm not as connected to the land as he is, but I also come from somewhere from land, and I identify myself as an actor, and I think everybody can actually do the same. What is my connection to land? It's my food. It's basically the feed and it's the fiber. We all have something to do because when 99.7% of our calories come from land, it means that each and everyone has an impact on land and can have a positive impact on land as well. Before coming to the office today, I drank coffee and sitting here in Bonn, I wondered where that coffee would be coming from, certainly not from Germany. So somewhere, from somewhere, someone is producing coffee that is basically feeding the German market. So my impact on land is not necessarily having a real impact on the German land, but it can have an impact on somewhere else. So my consumption can have actually an impact from somewhere else. And that is true for all the food that we eat. The same is true for feed. Whether the steak you eat somewhere in Paris is produced in France or whether it is coming from somewhere else, it's coming from land. And the relationship that steak may have with land and with deforestation is absolutely clear because animal feed is coming from land. And therefore, whatever we consume has a direct impact on land. And the third is fiber. The fashion industry has exploded over the last few years and therefore we all have to remember that the clothes that we wear is coming from land from somewhere. So my choice in terms of what I wear and what I buy has an impact on land. So this is what you call sustainable production and consumption. So how can you as an individual have an impact on land is basically depends on your choice. It is in your hands, essentially, what you would like to decide to do. And the traceability of your products for you to know where the food you are eating is coming from and what the processing of that food is going through, what is the inputs? What are the inputs that have been used to produce that is now much easier to trace. So you have the decision either to reward good land conservation or to continue to harvest in a non-sustainable way and to consume in a non-sustainable way. So whether you have a direct impact or a direct impact, indirect impact is really the discussion that you should consider. So how much trash do you want to have? How much food do you want to waste? Any food wasted, any water wasted is land wasted. So therefore our impact and our consumption has a direct impact or an indirect impact on land. Absolutely, and now then, so those of us who can do something about it on the land side also have a role to play. And you, as one of the people with some direct impact on the land, have taken all the challenge of planting 2.4 billion trees to rehabilitate the covering basin in India. To me, two billion trees sounds like a really huge number. So can you give us a sense of how much land will be covered by these trees when all this project is complete? And Ibrahim, at some point, if you want to come in and have that conversation, I'd really appreciate it. Well, 2.42 billion trees definitely sounds like a large number. But that number, 1.3 billion people in dry lands which is keeping Ibrahim awake in the night is what I see as a solution because India's population is about that. So these 1.3 billion people, if all of us commit to plant just two trees in the next 12 years, you've got the number, all right, largely. So our problems and solutions are not separate. If we harness a certain dimension, it becomes a solution. If we leave it unharnessed, it becomes a problem. So right now, the largest problem is the population. Will we harness this towards a solution or not is the only question. Cauvery calling is addressing Cauvery basin which amounts for 83 to 84,000 square kilometers in which we have removed 87% of the tree cover in the last 50 to 60 years time. Our goal is to fulfill this, that at least 33% of this 84,000 square kilometers comes under tree cover, not as forest because that is just not possible with the population pressures we have. Forest is right now, is largely the business of the government, they reserve forests and they have to protect that. I'm not getting into that aspect, but the largest piece of land is owned by the farmers and this is what is turning fallow. Desertification is happening in the farmlands, not in the forest lands. So bringing back trees to enhance this quality of the soil, to bring up the water tables in the region and above all to keep the fertility and the richness of the soil that it always was. This was the richest agricultural land in the world at one time. Over 12,000 year history of agriculture is there, but today in two generations, we have turned it fallow in Tamil Nadu, 42% of the land has been declared as fallow in the last 35 years to 40 years. So this can be transformed by bringing agroforestry. Agroforestry does not mean forests. Agroforestry means growing crops along with trees because the only way you can enhance the soil is organic content from the trees in the form of leaves and animal waste. Trees are gone long time ago, animals are going elsewhere, they're nowhere on the farm anymore. Only machines are on the farm, there are no animals on the farm. With these two things, there is no way to enrich the soil. To replenish the soil, you need leaves from the trees and animal waste, but both these things are missing. The thing is to bring back this so that the fertility of the soil is retained. India's population, nearly 65%, still depends on agriculture as their main livelihood. As Ibrahim was saying that whatever you do somewhere, somebody is growing it, all right? And now the markets are all over the world. So you don't sell only locally. So you don't grow in limited quantities. You try to grow as much as you can grow because it can always be sold at the other end of the world. So when this is the case, maintaining soil fertility, the richness of biodiversity in our soils is the prime responsibility. That's what Kaveri calling is about. Can I just follow up on, you talked about billions of trees that should be planted in that area. How is the population actually reacting to that? Are they prepared? Are they accepting? And what behavioral change techniques would you use to actually make sure that there is cooperation and understanding? And why would they accept the plant trees in their land? See, this is not going out as an ecological movement. This is going out as an economic solution for the farmers because 82% of the Tamil Nadu farmers are under debt distress because the debt distress means they have taken loans for which they have no means to pay back. That means they must sell the land or they must run away or unfortunately it's leading to suicides. In Kaveri basin in the last 12 years, 46,700 farmers have committed suicide. In India in the last 20 years, over 300,000 farmers have committed suicide. Even in wars, we don't kill this many people. That many farmers, people who are involved in producing food for us are committing suicide because there is no way out for them. Well, always it is explained off as a bank loan and this distress and that distress, but essentially if soil was rich and abundant water was available, no way a farmer will commit suicide. Without putting this back, other things will not work. So we are not pushing this as an ecological project. This is an economic project with significant ecological impact. If we bring back one third of the green cover back or let us say 2.4 billion trees back, this will sequester anywhere between 9 to 12 trillion liters of water, which is 40 to 60% of the present flow of Kaveri. You can get the Kaveri back in 15 to 20 years time. If you plant this now in the next 12 years, if they become established, then you will have 15 to 20 years time. This much water will come back into Kaveri. There's no doubt about that because there's enough science behind this. Now, there were problems that if you cut a tree that is grown in your own land, there was loss against it. You could be arrested for that. Now we are changing the laws. Both the governments have agreed to change the laws to fell transport and sell the timber produce where they want. We're in the process of setting up a timber board and a timber exchange where farmers can get the best price for their timber. And above all, we have already converted 69,760 farmers in the last 18 years, whose incomes in five to seven years has gone up 300 to 800%. I repeat that number three to eight times their incomes have gone up and the productivity in the land has gone up and the nutrient quality in the food crops that they're growing has gone up. So with this, one thing is nutrition is a huge issue in vegetarian societies where they're not eating meat and fish. It has become a massive issue because in the last 40 years or in the last 25 years, 40% of the nutrient quality has come down in the vegetables that we grow. So putting back nutrients will not happen without enriching the soil. Soil is our body in many ways. Putting that back into richness is very important for our health and well-being. This is something we've done nearly 70,000 farmers. Now what we are trying to do as Kaveri calling is change the laws to make tree felling easy in the farmlands. First thing, this concept of timber means is a forest product must change. Indian forests are simply not available for any more exploitation. Commercial exploitation of Indian forest is finished, it must become history because for that population, there is no way we can exploit further the forest produce. So timber must come from farmland. Timber must become farm produce. So right now, this is the effort we are in the process and governments have agreed to do this to move timber from forest departments controlled to agriculture departments. We are trying to move timber to agriculture ministry in the states and in the center. They have agreed in principle, the process is going on, this is a huge affair. Many things have to happen, but it is in the process and that's what needs to happen. The timber is something that we grow and we cut. Timber is not something that you cut and take away from the forest. Forest cannot be touched anymore. So because this is going as an economic plan, right now the immediate plan is in every Taluk which is like a county of a quarter million people approximately. We want 500 farmers to go into this. So our process of meeting all the people's representative at the village level, at the district level and at the state level is going on right now through our volunteers. The policies are getting into place and above all, we have convinced the governments to give them a subsidy. First four years, there is a supportive economic subsidy for the farmers. For every tree that he grows, he's being paid money for that. Because in the transition, there is a little loss of revenue. That loss of revenue, if it's made up by subsidy, they, this is a game changer. This is not a game changer just for Kaveri basin for the entire nation in India and also for the entire tropical world. This is a game changer because it's an economic plan with significant ecological impact. If you allow me, before I come back to the next question, can I, can you elaborate just a little bit why you chose this particular basin? Just very, very briefly so that we understand why this. The choice of Kaveri basin, why couldn't I work in Ganga basin? Ganga basin accounts for 25% of India's geography and 33% of India's agriculture. And in Ganga basin, they have removed 92% of the tree cover in the last 70 years time. So definitely that would be a prime place, but one thing it's too large. The most important thing is in Kaveri basin. Geographically, there are certain reasons. Here, it has been traced, some of the aquifiers run up to 800 kilometers. That is, if I plant a few trees here, 800 kilometers away, you may get water in your land. This is very unique to Kaveri basin. This is Deccan plateau, post Deccan plateau. This is how the land is. This is very important. And this is a land where marine ingress is happening at a tremendous pace. Nearly 55 kilometers into the land, marine water has come, simply because tree cover has been taken away. So the, the emergency of this land is high. Above all for me, between Canada and Tamil people, we have the maximum influence. These are two languages I can speak fluently. And this is a place where I can easily connect. This is a place where we have 53,000 villages in Tamil Nadu. In every village, we have volunteers. So we are effective because of the trust we have earned in that area. Without this trust, it would not happen. Geographically, there are advantages where the response will be very good from the land. And in terms of people, we have a huge advantage. That's why Kaveri basin. Wonderful. So you have a huge following. And obviously it's one of the reasons the executive secretary is interested in working with you. So Mr. Thiao, you have said it is important to engage with religious communities in the work of the convention. How do you envision all this coming together for happening? Thank you. Before I respond to that question, can I just comment that, of course, Sadgu is a leader on land restoration. You heard him talking about economy. You heard him talking about social aspect, transforming a degraded land back to a productive land again. That is exactly what we have been advocating and it's really wonderful to listen to you. Coming to your question about religious leaders, look close to 84% I understand of the people in the world believe in one religion or another. And all religions have this thing in common that they respect nature. And they consider land as being a holy place, holy, you know. So it is very important that you engage those leaders who basically can promote the kind of work that we would like to do because what is it that we are concerned about is of course land, but land for us for a sake because land is feeding us and land is protecting us and the soil that Sadgu is talking about is basically that thin layer that is feeding the world. So it is critical that we protect it. And religious leaders are respected by definition. And it is therefore important that we communicate with them. We share with them the new knowledge. They share with us their own knowledge and we find that common language that we hopefully will transform the way people interact with land and the way people understand that the land they live in is important for them but is also important for people sometimes hundreds of kilometers away from where they live or sometimes even thousands of kilometers away because we are all connected as a global community. So I'm really very happy to see that many leaders not only from the Christian community but also from other faiths committing themselves and promoting land conservation, soil conservation and basically promoting activity that are absolutely compatible with the mandate of the UN Convention to Combat Desertification. Thank you. Sadgu, if the governments and the international community are already working on these things, why should the public be doing these activities? Why do you have to get people involved? Well, without people's participation, there will be no solution anywhere. And above all, what you call as a government is people's representatives. So if people are not with something, where will the governments go? No policy is going to work unless people cooperate and make it happen. Especially in a nation like India where the largest wealth we have is our population. Whether we will harness this population to become a solution or we will leave it unharnessed and become a major problem is in our hands. So educating the population, getting the population inspired and involved is the only solution in the world really because implementation on the ground level as economic activity can only happen with people's cooperation and participation. So there is no huge problem. Human problems. Or rather, let's put it this way, on the planet there's only one problem, that's human beings. But if a solution has to come, it has to come from human beings, no other place. No other solution is going to come from elsewhere. This planet, as life-nourishing and beautiful as it is, we are capable of nurturing it or destroying it. It doesn't need our nurture. Little hands-off, everything will be fine. But can we do hands-off right now? We cannot because we are into an economic mode, we've gotten into a population proportions where hands-off is just not possible. So at least our hands-on should be in favor of the planet. So that's why I'm saying economics and ecology has to go together. Otherwise, if you pit economy versus ecology, believe me economy will win hands-down all the time. I went to the extent of saying that I want to officiate the marriage of economy and ecology. Only then the product will be good. Can I just comment on that, you know, people, governments issue that you talked about. You see, every single person in a democracy has the most powerful weapon, which is the electoral card to vote. So if you as a human being, you as an individual, you are concerned about the planet, the best action you can make today vis-a-vis your government is to make them adopt policies that promote sustainable development. And your best way of doing so is to express yourselves through elections. Of course, your own consumption is important, your own production is important, but the way you change policies either directly or indirectly, you as a leader, you as a voter, you as an elector, you as a human being, as a citizen have something very powerful, which is your card. And when decision makers know that trend either popular people of their countries want to have a policy that is more sustainable, they will go about that because governments have no legitimacy without their people. So this is why I think people like Sadhguru are absolutely important and the people that they work with have a very important say here. That's a very important aspect. See, when we did the Rally for Rivers movement, everybody said, Sadhguru, why are you trying to gather all these people's support by a missed call or whatever? So we gathered the support of 162 million people. Once that kind of number was there, in all the 16 states that I went through, every chief minister and every politician of some substance participated in the event. Prime minister received the document with certain respect and within 24 hours, they had formed a committee to look at it. Within two and a half to three months, it became official recommended policy for all the 28 states. This happened only because there were 162 million people backing the whole movement. Without that people support, governments will not be so agile. People have to express what is it that they want because they are ruled by their own representatives, not by somebody else lauding over you. It is your people that you have put up somebody from your own community up there. So it's very important you spell it out that ecological concerns are as important for you as economic concerns are. This is a statement that every order, every citizen has to make. Okay. I would like to really finish by thanking you again, Sathgul, for coming to our offices this morning to the UN Convention to Combat Desertification. This is obviously your office. And the work that you do is absolutely in line with the mandate of this convention and we are very happy to work with the Asia Foundation and develop this partnership. We sincerely hope that there will be more leaders like you from around the world, not only in India but in other parts of the world because for someone to dedicate their life into this mandate of sustainable development and a sustainable planet is absolutely essential and thank you very much again for coming to see us this morning. So Kaveri calling is a 12 year commitment for me and all the volunteers around me. We need your support to make this happen. We have. We are fully behind. And we are not looking at just one river. We want this to be a demonstrable model for the rest of the tropical world. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.