 So shall we start? Hello, everybody So You may remember us from previous sessions such as the ignoring negativity buff that we ran a panel session while that we ran on Monday You also remember us for the ignore negativity buff that was messed up in the schedule and didn't run and didn't run yesterday Apologies for that. It wasn't deliberate. We screwed up So one of the bits of feedback that we I think we've all had from people since we ran that panel session on Monday was that There was a lot more discussion and whatever and feedback and you know more points that people would have liked to have raised But we were we were horrible people and we totally went out of time so If this session is basically for that We're not going to be driving much. We're happy to take questions We're happily of course We're all happy to riff on this for hours and hours and days and days, but let's hear what the rest of you have to say So let's start who has a question who has a point Stunned silence perhaps recap what we said in the panel go for it. I'm the one who doesn't remember I Talked I didn't listen So we went through a lot of points about how we cope and how we suggest all the people might cope with negativity This is not about ignoring trolling. This is not about Ignoring harassment. It's how to deal with The day-to-day Potential demotivational things that you might see in Debian and in other places in free software But how to get on with that and how to still be productive day-to-day how to get on and have fun, you know Don't let it get you down We had a whole range of things. I'm hoping most of the people here were in the session. We don't want to recap it completely Exactly because that would take the whole hour and that defeats the point if you just want to hear us again We were courted by our wonderful video team and I believe it's already up on the net My wife has watched it and told me Apparently we were great, but she's but she's biased Say something I'll say something provocative go on so when You're doing Debian things You get people trying to get things done and people trying to troll the lists and Of course You tend to pay more attention to the people that try to troll the lists Where but what you really wanted to do is to get something done. So What's wrong with you? Why are you choosing to use your energy that way? Why are you giving it to people that ask you for the whole wrong? Gust of reasons Is that provocative enough No, no, what do people think? Ian Please come and grab a mic So that the obvious reason of course is somebody is wrong on the internet But you know that that's not a really good reason and we can maybe try to be better about that but there are also things that are Arguably good reasons or at least Reasons why it is difficult to ignore You know that make it harder to ignore for example if you Allow somebody to post some outrageous opinion and then don't challenge it or maybe only one person challenges it Then you can get a very skewed You know reading the list gives you a very skewed view of what the general Opinion is in the project and we we have had numerous occasions in the past where It has been become clear sometimes far far too late that the distribution of opinion in the project is badly represented by mainly as traffic and It would be nicer if we could Deal with that sooner Also if somebody's behavior is kind of crossing a line then it can be useful to correct them in public Depend I mean sometimes it can be better to cross them in private as well of course, but really I have to stand up Getting late in the day So I think you're absolutely right Ian One of the things that gets really frustrating and deviant some time is when we get into a lengthy Argument about something on a list and somebody coming in later can't really get any sense of what the project overall thinks I Talked about this the other day is sort of the tyranny of the vocal minority the fact that the people that are willing to spend time Putting lots of text into a discussion often end up having a disproportionately large percentage of the perceived Effect in that conversation And I don't really know what the fix is except that I've learned over time that I'm much more productive when I sort of skim That stuff go. Yeah, okay. There's another one of those going on and then just go back to work And I don't know how we balance this It's absolutely true that when somebody is being downright wrong about something that Keeping that from going on forever would be a great thing and I'd love for the rest of the world to have some way to sort of understand You know what the majority of folks in Debbie and actually think and believe and are actually Sort of focused on but I don't really know how to fix that So personally the way I handle this is I put a lot less Energy into keeping on top of all the things that are happening on all the lists every day than I once did and That seems to be a pretty useful productivity tool But I don't know, you know I worry a little bit that if those of us who care the most sort of spend less time paying attention to All of these sorts of discussions that are going on that you know, that doesn't necessarily bode well for the long term either I May I Yeah, I unfortunately have a mic on myself So it's hard for me to use the token for beat me with the mic if I'm speaking when I shouldn't Representation is an interesting keyword there for me Because it's not about reaching a consensus anymore when we're talking about representation It's about showing that maybe there isn't a consensus so maybe in that case a lot of energy can be saved in Replying I disagree Without trying to convince the other person that they're wrong because The hardly ever works Depending on the people, but yeah, that's when a people is getting heated trying to convince them that they're wrong is like Worse, but you know, I did and somehow Russell Comes to mind as somebody who would say I disagree on this for this reason But doesn't add and you are wrong for that Sure, so there's a lot to be said for a good clear discussion of the points and Making it clear that you respect somebody's opinion, but you don't agree with them Just saying of course you disagree is Never going to convince anybody else who is watching a discussion because of course they don't understand your reasoning But equally it take doesn't take very much time. There's arguments. I mean, I think we hopefully we all remember I've heard suggestions of Limiting the number of males a person can send to say Debbie and Devel in a day a week a month To try and cut down on the overwhelming volume problem But again, it's the technical solution to a social problem And I'm not going to fall into the trap of saying that can never work But it's really hot I'm wondering all the steel representation wise if I say if I answer to someone I disagree I think that this and then I drop the thread. Yeah If they will try to say I'm wrong in so many ways, I don't care. I've expressed my disagreement representation wise there's been a voice Definitely that thing I think that is good as we do have a lot of and I can fall fall of this And I know other people can as well of wanting to follow up to everything in a thread that you disagree with But of course once you start then multiplying up by a thousand or ten thousand people that's clearly never gonna work And really honestly if you're somebody who has useful work to do It's giving somebody else an immense amount of power by allowing them to steal your productivity, which You know at the end of the day doesn't make anything better Cool other thought suggestions, whatever. I mean There's a mic Just a very quick follow up to that. What about Stand this side. What about Replying saying why don't we just bring this thread to a This this is this thread to work and sorry How about we just bring this thread to a you know an abrupt conclusion just like yeah, I think everything's been said here Let's just close up and move on Like I mean I've tried a couple of times. Yeah, sorry guys tried a couple of times, but it hasn't really worked So, yeah Sounds like a cool idea. I know it's not it's not something that you tend to see I'm curious to see how well it might work, of course when people are in full angry rant flow They might just ignore you But it could be a way of trying to help signal to others that you think you know that you think we've had all the Useful discussion Yeah, and it's something that DPL Probably has a specific Weight that makes it work more than other people in the project So of course so we'll get to you in a moment Dan Of course, we have had as we already we already mentioned on Monday the suggestion of hang fire If more people could be convinced to make that point Wait to see what other people have to say properly read everything can consider and then respond once I think we might end up with less of flooding problem We can hope But if I respond once then they'll be expecting I'm now part of the discussion. So if I Then I I just want to respond once, but they'll be waiting for me Spawn over us. I might I don't want to get started responding at all Sure, it depends on them if you're having a discussion Backwards and forwards potentially that might be worth wandering off and away from a public list It you know what we're talking about more is the ever-increasing You know disagreement even anger that can end up coming out of a Long flame fest, you know if we can start cutting down on those and before we get to that point That's that's I think where we can benefit and maybe there's a distinction between Contributing to a discussion and trying to win the argument Yeah, I mean if we have a really long thread because there are lots of good things that are being discussed And we're moving towards some sort of a technical consensus. That's awesome It's when all of a sudden there's you know, somebody replies and says well, I don't think so and you're You're missing the point on the following six things and then all of a sudden there are sort of 12 points made And the reply to that and the next thing you know and the next thing you know You just get this long thread of people bickering back and forth with really huge emails It doesn't really make anything better at the end of the day And you know if one of the things that comes out of this is that there's now sort of a recorded record of several of us saying Please just don't do that on our mailing list I don't know if it will cause anything to get better on the lists or not But at least it's something we can point to when this starts to happen and say Do you really think this is making the world a better place and Try and push back on its own I Have a question which is that because I'm sometimes on the other end up I'm kind of some of my hats are hats which tend to say no Both my technical committee, but also my DSA hat Or there are changes in our approach and our procedures that we should do and take to To make it so that we don't actually end up stealing like we don't want to say no just to say no, but as Anybody who has been kind of involved in in Especially for the technical committee been involved in the entire process it can be draining We've seen people just give up their packages because they don't want to like they feel basically They're they're in front of a tribunal, which is very public. Is there something we can do that? Well Still not necessarily like moving to a private process, but like how can we how can we fix these these problems? That's a really good question. I don't have a quick snappy answer. I'd like to try to address it Go for it. I think it's an example of when technical not and technical is not the Scale that we should be talking about because there are technicalities of how to address arguments There are people with expertise in facilitating discussion. There are many many Approaches and processes for arguing together and online, you know as a different medium than others But there are still different ways. So for example, I often see people Arguing with very very long threads with a lot of very impassioned feelings and then someone tries to say stop but the thing But the people are not arguing the same question So they don't feel heard the issue hasn't been addressed And sometimes just being able to parse out. What are the issues here? So I think when To be helpful in a situation like that it's sometimes helpful to just step back read over it and say I Like the word concerns. How many concerns are being addressed here? Who is addressing which concern are they? Misunderstanding what the real concern was to actually hurt the person to say that rather than help Because the concern was misunderstood. So sometimes just asking questions. What are the concerns we're trying to address here? It can be helpful That reminds me of me dealing with the essay a few times which maybe I went to the list and saying Can you change that configuration that way or install that thing and the answer was no Why would you do that and then I would be taking a step back and realize that I went there with a strategy instead of with the need and so I'm like Actually, yeah, what I needed was to be able to do that thing because I'm trying to get that job done and then somebody from DSA comes back saying they why don't you do it that way? It's easier for us to deal with and I'm like, yeah, okay. That makes sense. And whoa So the DSA wise it's a thing because With DSA it has to be a negotiation everything that I ask is something that somebody else needs to maintain So we need to come to an agreement there with technical committee. I've had much less dealing with so sure So when it comes down to an argument that might get bounced to the technical committee, and I've seen a number of those over the years There is a classic mediation strategy of Trying to get each side, you know the person on each side to actually state What they think the other side is understanding? if you can for if you can Convince yourself to empathize and understand the other side and even state what you think the other side's opinion is in a constructive manner and of course the constructive bit is not easy if you're already angry and I know we've all been there But to actually to try and state what you think the good points are and the bad points maybe of the other side You can then actually maybe start it will help you to start empathizing You can actually start to see where they're coming from you can also it then gives them a chance to say You understand most of my position Except you know, well actually then deal in the facts do rather than just war opinions and anger It's a good way of just promoting empathy I've been through it consciously a few times when I've had Disagreements in the workplace or whatever it makes a huge difference, but it's and it's not an easy one to do and yeah, the the general term for that conflation of needs once verse and or strategy versus Yeah, it's called a XY problem, and it's a very it's a Googleable term for that kind of Confusion there. Yeah, I got it from nonviolent communication, but in a different name, but I guess it's the same idea One thing that I'll just throw out in this context particularly with respect to sort of this notion that maybe we need to change some processes There've been a couple of discussions Recently that seemed to be completely civilized and trying to drive towards some useful technical Conclusion where somebody in our project didn't want to participate because some past history It caused them to be really irritated with one or more of the participants in a conversation or a Body that they thought in the project wasn't Actually making things better, and I think we have to be very careful not to fall into the trap of saying gee because Something in the past didn't go well here before that nothing will ever go well here again And that leads me to be you know very concerned that That we all sort of think about what we're saying and what we mean and and sort of what the context is Particularly when somebody comes and says hey, it would be really helpful to have your opinion on this particular thing I have found myself being asked that sometimes in the past and having to say you know I haven't thought about that. I don't really have an answer But if I ever felt like the right thing to say was um you don't deserve an answer then that that would just be You know bad behavior and we kind of figure out how to not do that. Oh Even small-sized companies have a human relationships officer or workshops and the whole official thing and and All these kind of things so how could Debbie and not have an official facilitator of human communications or whatever say I mean you got your black, you know College degrees and stuff. Let's not just do this at the amateur home brew method. You got to use the professional methods Well, that's an interesting question and of course one of the things that's really really different about Debian compared to a lot of other things is that we're not a company and so while we do have access to some financial Resources and then we have used them at times to put together sprint meetings and other places sometimes with Specific facilitation assistance when it seemed to the team in question like that would make things go better on an average day There is no HR department in Debian really There are roles in the project that take on some of the responsibilities that a company's HR department would take on but I think we have to be really careful to not Sort of screw up the things that are really unique and special and sort of encouraging to volunteer participation about Debian in the process of trying to be you know more effective and avoid Causing each other problems that aren't related to the work. We're trying to do as we go forward It's a good question now In other venues that are not Debian I've seen Workshops being done to teach people how to take a no and how to say a no But how do they can know and that's probably something which we could have some literature in Debian Because That's not a nature thing I'll get back to that. It's not the nature thing. It's a skill thing and skills can be taught So actually in my company we have employed an outside consultant Actually a friend of mine unrelated Called the geek whisperer whose job it is actually to go around and to help Explain to people with specific examples to people's roles and to people's experiences Work through some of these problems, especially dealing with negativity You know I'm working out just helping people to gain those skills on how to interact well and just just How to get on with each other even when you have the stressful decisions when you have to make that make you know Say your idea is bad or this idea is better You know and help people to get on with that without being destroyed by it You know lots of us are we can get very attached to our technical opinions It takes a lot of practice and like it's sometimes a little soul-searching to understand That's not the right thing It also just occurred to me that that I'm probably not unique in the project in this way But I certainly have been aware of the fact that I had the benefit of several decades of Involvement in a company that cared a lot about these sorts of issues and spent a lot of time and energy Sending employees off to classes to learn how to do lots of things better And I've tried to share some of that at various times in various ways in the project But I've also been very conscious sometimes that other people I'm interacting with Haven't had the same experience as I have don't have the same context And it would be unfair of me to assume that they always thought about problems the same way I don't know exactly what that means here But for all of you that have a job somewhere that causes you to have to go take Training classes about how to work better with other people and how to do you know build strong and effective teams and all that you have to sort of pay attention and Know that some things you learn there are really easy to bring an apply and an open-source Context or a project like Debian and some of those things have to be a little bit careful about because we're all here's Volunteers not because somebody's paying us and that does lead to a different sort of relationship dynamic sometimes Diamond something different. Yeah, so here's a A common situation for a lot of us you maintain something and There's a decision to be taken that has impacts on others. So there's a mailing list thread or a bug about what should be done and Often what you kind of have two choices you can either basically say There's no consensus here or I can't determine a consensus. I'm gonna do nothing and you end and that's kind of like Making a decision by default. It's sometimes the right thing to do, but often it's not often. It's better to do something so your other choice is to try and Decide which of the threads of conversation are relevant and which are the things we're talking about today So which are just Negativity that really you should just decide are not relevant to your decision about what to implement And I'm assuming here that you as a maintainer are not particularly involved in the discussion That's that's a factor that makes it harder But often you're not you just like maybe you don't use this feature But two groups do and you've got to decide which one to put in the archive How do you how do you decide which threads to pay attention to? right, how'd you avoid this decision by default of leaving a bug open for years and years because There's too much. I don't know I leave bugs open for years and years I no longer have any three-digit bugs numbers up and against my package. I Don't think I have any four or five digit bug numbers up and anymore, but it hasn't been that long Okay, cool I've had some notable bugs in history and we'll just leave it at that I'm not sure there's a really simple answer to that I am part of the reason I was sitting here scratching my head a little bit is that it's been in my experience really rare That I felt like there was value in asking the question where I didn't have some inherent sentiment about What I thought a good answer would be if I was aware that there were multiple choices and I really wanted to find out if the way I was thinking about it was sort of a consensus opinion that would be one kind of situation and If it seemed to be coming to an impasse and nothing was happening then I would at least have some personal sense of yeah, okay If if there's no clear consensus here, and I thought a was the right answer and let's just go do a and let the chips fall And and at the other end of the spectrum if you really don't have an opinion at all And you thought a reasonable Solution from the beginning was just don't do anything until things become clearer Then that may not be a horrible thing to do It this this is where you get into this tension where if somebody requested a change because there's something They want to do that's blocked by something that you need to do for them And you look at it and you go yeah There's like you know different ways you could think about this and that might be a bad precedent or a bad path to go down Or something it just gets difficult and I think that's why we're all supposed to be intelligent people who are willing and able to put the time and energy in to think about things and It's one of the things that I really like about the Debian Structure and the Constitution that you know Ian drafted for us so long ago is this notion that the majority of the Responsibility is left in the hands of individual developers And we're supposed to be able to figure almost everything out without having to go get somebody else to tell us what the answer is That doesn't necessarily make it easier when you do find yourself in one of those situations And I'm confident that anybody in a role where they're trying to do policy Documentation or something else like that where it may not be their own acts to grind But you know which edge of the act should be made sharp I'm sure that's difficult. I don't know they'll have a whole lot of other your advice about that So having been in some of those discussions at various points over the years I Can't necessarily give you much advice to say definitely do this do that I've tended to evaluate say if people are demanding not ask demanding asking for and trying to justify say major changes Try and judge how active they might be in helping if future help is needed You know more active people are good But also if for example if you do decide that Actually, no, I think we're better off without this don't just say that and nothing else or even worse Don't just leave it hanging and people waiting Try and formulate a good response and explain your reasoning to say I'm not a hundred percent sure You know we might do this we might not do this But I'm you know I really don't have a good answer But you know make it clear that you know you're not just ignoring people you haven't just left it hanging Because that's one of the worst things if people think they're blocked and they think they're still blocked And they're just waiting on you to respond Right. Yes. So I phrase the question is like what do I do just like to be controversial? I wasn't expecting anyone to just give me like a four-step procedure, but those are useful pieces of advice. Thanks So down at a very good point that I think we we lack both also what Bedale was saying we lack Ability to like train people to teach them in a more structured way how to resolve disputes and how You know how to interact well with people and we lack good structures for Dealing with things when it gets more difficult in that context. I want to say right. There's a lot of things. I'm proud of that Structure of the technical committee is not one of them. I now regard it as a failure and I'm sorry for that I was young and foolish and didn't understand many things that I understand much better now. I think we could Improve that. There are it's not easy. We can't just take a corporate model Debian is a political enterprise as well as a technical one and People come to it for political even ideological reasons and that means that sometimes you have to deal with Ideological disagreements and that's always difficult, but there are other Projects you could we could look at political projects as well as I'm thinking of occupied perhaps There are other people who have faced some of these same challenges and who've done work both well and badly I'm not sure what the structure would be for how we would do such an investigation, but I think that would be you know We should be thinking about how to How to do this better? And I'm sorry to have you know left the project with a problem in so far as it was my fault So if you think it is wrong, I'm not suggesting we discuss it now But it's definitely worth having a wider discussion about what you think would be better Yeah, yeah, but but possible follow through and actually come up with I don't know more Consensus on a better model is of course hard. Yes. Also. I am not the person who should be trying to do that I have a you know, I mean I might my opinions in this area are and my reputation is in some quarters very controversial and and The result is that when I have tried to do what you just suggested my words were completely misunderstood by many of the people that I wanted to convince and I think if somebody else had written something very similar that it would have been interpreted quite differently and also You know, I'm very much on one side of the you know There's that there are some like political questions to be answered there and I'm very much on one end of that So that also makes me a bad choice. So I'm pleased with somebody else With a more central kind of reputation and a more central kind of alignment step forward That's an excellent plea on the other hand I will sort of throw back in your direction that one of the things that just knocks my socks off about Debian every time I step back and think about it is it's really really amazing how much Incredibly good work has been done by such a large group of people in this project who have for a long time been fundamentally enabled by the foundational documents that Ian Murdoch started with the Debian manifesto and then the work that we collectively did to create the social contract and the Constitution and so forth and while There are clearly warts and imperfections all over the place And lots of things that you know, I totally agree we could figure out how to do better going forward Man, this has been so For the most part largely successful and look what we've accomplished that I you know neither you nor anyone else should feel too bad About sort of how things have gone Thank you You're welcome Last year I spoke about some Techniques or ways of thinking about arguments and I made the suggestion that outside help be brought in and I've had many Conversations since then I no longer think that I think that the Debian as a community has such a rich culture that Perhaps a better way to go is to get Folks who are doing a good job in a position to better able to share how they do that a little bit more of internal how-to's and so I facilitated an unrecorded conversation of that sort about successful teams and I Didn't I wasn't sure if my own facilitation was it going to turn into a flaming, you know, how do we do this? But I think it went well I think there were some really interesting stories and people got a feel for how to share successes And so maybe next year we continue that kind of pattern of this kind of discussion, you know how to do it better Yeah, do you remind me of that engineering decision in after First World War of getting the planes that came back from dogfights and The people had the idea we should reinforce them where they have bullets and somebody else said no We should reinforce them where they don't because they came back. So the bullets were not in the In the critical places and so but then we focus on the bullet holes or Another thing if you want to deal with bullying in schools Yes, you go and study the schools where there is bullying, but even more importantly you go and study the schools where bullying is not See what they're doing, right? And it seems to be aligned to the kind of thing and and and indeed we are here because a lot of energy is spent in Focusing on like oh my god. We have so many famous and a little bit of energy starts to be spent in How does rust do it? but Russ is not the only like excellent Is it working? Okay. Russ is not the only good case. We have we actually have a lot and And so yeah, very good suggestion. Thank you for it Just following on to that a lot of engineering companies now have a quite big culture of retrospectives where they do come together after a Specific incident typically, but just perhaps, you know any ever end of every month Be like what works that's sharing success stories, which is great And that can be all shared between the team and between teams and things like that But also they they talk about what didn't work like in speaking to like the bullet hole type things like what You know what we can do better and things like that and so that's it that really reminded me when you said I Know I think X. Sorry. I used to think X, but now I don't think X. That's fascinating. Why why did you change your mind? You know those kind of those common conversations are almost More interesting to me and perhaps more useful than what X actually is. Yeah I like the idea of retrospectives and And in a company you have trigger points like after delivery Or something and in Debbie and we could have trigger points for sharing like after a release what went well in this release after Some important bug is fixed after Something is announced on they've been developer news, which is cool Starting a thread of how did you make that happen? What did you like about that process? That would be really nice. I mean that needs to be done fairly well I mean, for example, if you did a naive version for I make it up the salsa migration It could just turn into oh, this was terrible. This was terrible right instead of it being more of a long lines of What do we do better next time? What can we learn from this? Even just what went well and if you say that didn't go well, you're off topic Thank you So actually one of the things that came out of Catherine's session the other day that I think is worth highlighting Sort of in a public recording here is this notion that it would be really cool If one of the things we did at future deb cons is have a session where we just invited people to publicly Thanks somebody for having accomplished something that was important to them and the project in the last year And if nobody else does I'll probably try to remember to put something like that in the session because I You know I an awful lot of what happens in this project is done by people who only ever hear about Things when something goes wrong and I have to tell you every time I've ever had an email It says hey, thanks for uploading that thing and fixing this problem. That's been bugging me for the 12 years You haven't been paying attention to the bug You know, okay, that's a bad mixed example But it is it is really nice when you get positive feedback And I think doing some of that publicly in a session that gets recorded and where everybody gets a chance to see How many cool things have gone on would be really useful for the overall attitude of everybody working on the project Please lightning. Thanks session I'm not saying that you have to spend money and haul in a human relationship Professional you can get one from internal volunteers, but just make sure they've got a license So in fact, I'm gonna go back a little bit more and on the thanks thing You know the thing that we have done and you know in is of course going to pick up on the bad things It is very common for engineers My wife tells me off of this all the time to sound negative because we're forever looking on not necessarily Broken things. We're not complaining. We're continuing to look by our very nature for how we can improve things You know continuing to talk about things that could be improved and here's how I'd improve it is not a Complaint that oh my god. This is awful. This this is rubbish, you know, it should never be done this way It's a how can we add the extra five percent of polish on the top that would make this even better? It's a really good thing. So again, not wishing to give in too big a head, you know But going back and looking at our constitution and looking at a lot of our foundational documents How many other groups out there have Borrowed copied stolen wholesale from what we've got because they think we're doing it. Well You know, we can we should be looking at places where we have we have generated good stuff and share those with each other if someone's Got a long layover and perhaps they might want to Check out. I believe it's called Dealing with disrespect. It's a P3 PDF etc from John O Bacon It's I've read it couple of times. It's got some interesting points. I don't agree with everything But it's as I say if you get stuck in the airport on the way home and we're interested by this conversation It's worth a read at least to put yourself on and get some of the the language and stuff like that Perhaps someone couldn't find the link and go be like that So I think we've got a couple of minutes left. Do we have any more comments or we are we finished? Tassia, I do have a comment that After the bit from DPL session when you brought those numbers I really thought of it would be nice if we had a dashboard or something that we constantly have those numbers like and It would be more a publicity team task I think to collect or at least to receive all those Numbers or achievements that we did maybe once a month. We have this Port or something that we can continuously like check out what we are doing well with these ideas of Cheering up the good thing and thank you messages or for important team is our decisions Cool idea. Thanks. Do you want to help make it work? You know how these how these things happen I know I know that's why I was hesitating but it was a short comment and I'm It is interesting though when we're in the middle of some really intense discussion A couple times I found it useful to just go take a look at how many package uploads have been made in the last day or the last week or the Last month or something and this was the reason that I had that sort of Observation that I made to a reporter a few years ago that Most of the work in Devin gets done by a silent majority because there are people who just keep working on package and fixing things and improving them and uploading new versions and all this stuff no matter what's going on in our mailing lists or You know who's yelling at who about what and so yeah, I would echo that I think that at least for me Okay, I've been around a long time I actually know where to go to look to get lots of bits of data and who to ask when I don't know but it is immensely Positively sort of influencing when you see how much work other people are doing on something that you care a lot about Regardless of how you happen to feel about it that day and our time is up So thank you all very much once again for your time and attention some really cool questions I hope this has been useful and I don't know that we'll ever do this exact kind of session again in the future But I'm certainly to the point in the process where at least part of what I think about every time I'm coming back to debconf is what can I do to help convey some experience and wisdom about things that have happened in the past What's gone well on what hasn't in the hopes of helping this be a project continue can continue to go on for a really long time Thanks everybody