 The Eleventh Meeting was held in 2015 by the Infrastructure and Capital Investment Committee. Everyone present is reminded to switch off mobile phones as they do affect the broadcasting system. As meeting papers are provided in digital format, you may see tablets being used during the meeting. The first item is for the committee to decide whether to take consideration of its stage one report on the Harbour Scotland Bill and its report on freight transport in Scotland in private at a future meeting. The committee is agreed. The second item is to hear evidence on the draft Enhanced Enforcement Areas Scheme Scotland Regulations 2015 from Margaret Burgess, Minister for Housing and Welfare, Linda Leslie, Housing Strategy Team Leader and Jacqueline Pantone, principal legal officer at the Scottish Government. This instrument is laid under affirmative procedure, which means that the Parliament must approve it before the provisions may come into force. Following this evidence session, the committee will be invited to consider a motion to approve the instrument under the next agenda item. Can I begin by welcoming our witnesses this morning and can I invite the minister to make an opening statement? Thank you, convener, and I welcome the opportunity to give evidence on the draft Enhanced Enforcement Areas Scheme Scotland Regulations 2015. Drew Smith brought forward an amendment at stage 3 of the housing bill introducing the provisions on enhanced enforcement areas and requiring draft regulations to be laid by 1 April 2015. He made it clear in his supporting remarks that the power to designate enhanced enforcement areas would only be used in exceptional circumstances, and on that basis I was happy to support Mr Smith's amendment to the bill. These regulations have passed will enable local authorities to apply for new discretionary powers to assist them in tackling acute problems in a geographical area. In order to make an application, the local authority must consider that the area has an overprovision or concentration of private rented sector accommodation, which is characterised as having a poor environmental standard and by overcrowding and where there is a prevalence of antisocial behaviour. I was clear throughout Parliament's scrutiny of the housing bill that I want to raise standards across the private rented sector, and that is why the 2014 Housing Act includes a number of new measures, measures that were supported by this committee and by Parliament, introducing regulation of lighting agents, enabling disputes in the private rented sector to be transferred to the first tier tribunal for Scotland, giving local authorities discretionary powers to report breaches of the repairing standard to the private rented housing panel, along with the power to enter a house to establish if there is a breach, and duties and landlords to provide carbon monoxide detectors and to carry out electrical safety checks every five years. I also want to see local authorities making effective use of their statutory powers for landlord registration, and work is under way to revise the landlord registration guidance to support them to do that. We published our consultation on the policy approach to the enhanced enforcement area regulations in autumn last year following discussions with individual local authorities and with COSLA. 33 responses were received, including responses from 13 individual local authorities, the Scottish Association of Landlords, Shelter Scotland and a number of registered tenant organisation networks, all who were broadly supportive of the approach that we are taking. Enhanced enforcement area designations is intended to be used only to tackle the most difficult and extreme circumstances where a local authority has not been able to improve conditions in an area by using its existing powers. That is why, when applying for designation of an area, the draft regulations require a local authority to set out its wider strategy for improving standards in the private rented sector. I want to ensure that we take a proportionate approach to this process so that the draft regulations give local authorities the flexibility to bring forward the most relevant evidence of the three criteria specified in the act to support an application. Local authorities have a wide range of existing powers to tackle poor standards in the private rented sector, and when an area has been designated as an EEA, the local authority would then have a number of new discretionary powers that it can use in that area. Those would give a local authority a new set of tools to tackle an exceptional set of circumstances. Those powers would enable local authorities to require a landlord who is applying for registration or who is renewing their registration to provide an enhanced criminal record certificate to evidence that they are fit and proper person, require landlords to produce the documents specified in the regulations for inspection by local authority officers to evidence that they are complying with their related duties and responsibilities as a landlord. Authorise a person to enter the house or building to ensure that the accommodation is safe, well managed and of good quality. As set out in the act, the regulations also set out the purposes for which local authorities can use those powers. They are to enable the local authority to exercise its functions under landlord registration legislation, ensure the safety and upkeep of the house, ensure that information is available to tenants and enable the local authority to decide whether the house and the building is in or safe, well managed and of good quality. Convener, in drafting those regulations, the Scottish Government has tried to give local authorities additional powers to respond flexibly and proportionately to exceptional circumstances, and I am happy to answer any questions. Thank you very much Minister. Can I now invite members of the committee to ask any question that they may have to the Minister, Mr Johnson? Thank you very much, convener. Minister, I have criticised some of your previous regulation of private landlords on the grounds that quite often the nature of the regulation was such that the good landlords will engage and the bad landlords will not. So, as a result, we simply regulate the good landlords and not the bad ones. This piece of regulation, however, seems to go that step further to allow local authorities to take action against the bad landlords. Is this the step in the right direction that it appears to be? I very much hope that it is the step in the right direction. It is about a landlord identifying where, even within their existing powers of regulation, some landlords are just not playing ball. It is about when there is an area and it is impacting on a whole area and a whole community where a local authority has been given these discretionary powers to take action and bring that area up to standard and take action on the landlords that are not following the rules. Is there any danger that we may fall into the same trap that we have previously, that when the regulation is put into practice, it simply puts further pressure on the good landlords and fails to pursue the bad ones? I do not see that with this specific piece of legislation. This is very targeted and it is where a local authority and a community has identified a problem. It is in exceptional circumstances and it will only affect bad landlords. The landlords association and the good landlords organisations are very supportive of our action here. I believe that we may be achieving that with this instrument, so I am supportive of it. I support the thrust of this instrument and what it is seeking to do, but I have often been aware in the past that local authorities use their existing powers of enforcement, sometimes in disproportionate ways, and I am questioning them to try to discover if there is rhyme or reason to it. It has been suggested to me by council officers that often they are reluctant to, for instance, use their powers for serving repairs notices because their recourses for the council themselves undertake repairs and then attempt to recover the cost of that. Often it is because they feel that their chances of recovering those costs are pretty slender that they do not use the powers. Would this instrument be subject to that concern, especially given that some private sector landlords are companies that are sometimes resident outwith Scotland and indeed outwith the UK? Those powers are additional powers and discretionary powers and it is for a local authority to determine if they feel using those powers would improve a very difficult situation in their area. We do not envisage that they are powers that are going to be used throughout every local authority area in Scotland. It is only where a local authority itself says that there is a problem here. We want to tackle this as part of our overall strategy in improving an area and improving a problem within the private landlord sector in that area, the private rented sector, and it is in those circumstances that a local authority would gather the evidence and bring to the ministers to determine that specific area as an enhanced enforcement area where they can take advanced action, so that they themselves would be applying to take that action. You have said that those are additional powers and discretionary powers, so it is likely that they would only be used in very exceptional circumstances and there would only be a limited number of local authorities who would seek to invoke the regulations. Is there anything that you can say about how the Government will keep the matter under review to see what the impact of the regulations has been in practice? All legislation we would keep under review. It is a discretionary power for local authorities to use as an additional tool in the toolbox for local authorities. As I have said, I do not expect it to be used that often. There are some areas that we are already working on. I am right in saying that Glasgow is an area of Glasgow with a city council who are looking at whether the regulations are improved to look at having an enhanced enforcement area as part of their overall strategy of improving a part of Glasgow. That in itself will give us an indication of how the regulations are working. We will certainly be looking at that. Obviously, the committee will be kept informed of what is happening, and the committee can always review it as well. Thank you for that. There are no further questions. The third agenda item this morning is the formal consideration of motion S4M-13157, calling for the committee to recommend approval of the draft Enhanced Enforcement Areas Scheme Scotland regulations 2015. Can I invite the minister to speak to and move motion S4M-13157? I now put the question on the motion. The question is that motion S4M-13157, in the name of Margaret Burgess, be approved. Are we all agreed? The committee is agreed. That concludes the consideration of this affirmative instrument. We will report the outcome of our consideration to the Parliament. I thank the witnesses once again and can I allow a short suspension for a witness changeover? Thank you. Good morning. We now resume our meeting of the committee. Agenda item 4 is access to Scotland's major urban railway stations. The committee will take evidence for this piece of work on access to Scotland's major urban railways, and I also wish to acknowledge at this stage the incredible response to the committee's survey with close to 5,000 responses received. The committee is very encouraged indeed by the interest in this piece of work from members of the public and other interested stakeholders, and we would like to thank all those who took part in the survey. A detailed analysis of the survey responses will be produced in the coming weeks. Can I welcome Anne McLean, convener and Hussain Patwa, a member of the Immobility and Access Committee for Scotland? Can I welcome JoLynn Warren, head of research at Transform Scotland, and Robert Samson, passenger manager at Transport Focus? Two of our witnesses this morning have a visual impairment, so I am going to introduce myself and ask members of the committee to do likewise. I am Jim Eadie and I am the convener of the committee. I am James Dornan. I am Mike McKenzie, MSP for Highlands and Islands. I am David Stewart and I am Labour MSP for Highlands and Islands. I am Mary Fee, Labour MSP for West Scotland. I am Alex Johnstone, member for North East Scotland. I will kick off, if I may, with the first question. That is to ask the witnesses in the context of the survey that has been issued by the committee. Respondents to this have highlighted a situation in which provision for onward travel from major railway stations is often confusing for passengers with limited information, often poor signage and bus stops and taxi access, often located far from station entrances. I would be interested to know what your perspective is on this and how you think the situation has come about and what should be done to prioritise addressing and improving matters in the future. Who would like to kick off? If I can kick off Robert Samson's transport focus, over the years there has been significant improvement in accessibility at both major and small stations. We have been involved in that work with Transport Scotland, Network Rail and ScotRail. It is to be welcomed, but one thing that we have noticed throughout that time is that it seems to be done in silos to a certain extent, that the rail industry is concerned about accessibility improvements at the station and that it ends at the station entrance or exit to the station. What there needs is a more joined-up approach with regional transport partnerships, local authorities to look at connectivity, walking routes to the station from the bus stop or bus station, various things like lighting, etc. There seems to be a lack of a joined-up approach to look at this in a more holistic manner. The new franchise agreement has a number of improvements to be made at stations. One of the issues that we are taking forward with high trends improvements to be made at anvanese stations is that they do a survey of the passengers at the station and use the bus stops as well to look at connectivity, to look at what the problems are just now, to inform the spend going forward to improve the facilities at that station. There has been a number of accessibility improvements, but there needs to be a more joined-up approach. The journey just does not start or end at the station entrance, and that seems to be a problem just now, to be honest with you. Who else would like to? Yes, I would. We have put in written evidence, but something that we did not mention, which I think is quite important in relation to the question that you asked, there is in Scotland, in fact across the United Kingdom as a whole, a thing called passenger assist. You ring up in advance, I think it is two hours now, and you can get assistance at the railway station. It is not just for people with disabilities, but it is predominantly people with disabilities who use it. Now, it is an excellent system. I have used it for about, I do not know, almost 20 years probably, but the problem is that, and I will use an example of, say, Haymarket. The passenger assist staff are not supposed to work outside the cartilage of the station. Now, if you are at Haymarket, which I use as an example, the taxi rank is across the tram, the other side of the road. Now, you might be lucky waving your arms around, and the taxi might see you, on the other hand, you might not. Now, some of the staff will, although it is not within, I do not think they are supposed to, because there are all sorts of concerns about insurance and liability. Do it for you. I think certainly for disabled people, if something could change so that passenger assist could help disabled passengers and others, because if it is good for disabled passengers, it is good for people with heavy luggage, it is good for people with children and families and what have you, to get to where they need to go to get their next mode of transport, be it a taxi, a tram or a bus. That would help. I assume that probably means that there has got to be some work done on liability and insurance, but I do not think that is beyond the width of not just the rail industry, but the bus industry and local authorities and what have you as well. That would make a great difference. I will just give two examples at this stage. Last year, we completed a study called the interchange project, which was looking at cycle integration with public transport. A lot of the issues that we found mirror some of the issues that Max raised in their submission as well, which is the lack of consistency with signage and such. I think that we found to echo some of what has been said that there are these boundary issues. There is pretty much every major station that we saw. This becomes a significant issue. You can look at Aberdeen, for instance, where you have ScotRail, the City Council, the developers that own Union Square, Northlink, which runs the ferry terminal, if you are looking at getting from the stations. There seems to be no mechanism to enable efficient co-ordination between the various bodies that need to work together to provide that seamless experience. The second example that I want to mention now is the Queen Street redevelopment in Glasgow. A year ago, we submitted a response to the consultation on the plans. One of the points that we made, we said that the project needs to have much greater focus on improving the station's integration with other public transport services. The response that we got from Network Rail Scotland was that strategic transport integration is out with the remit of Network Rail Scotland in terms of redeveloping the station. Now, that may be, but this is a huge amount of public money. Let's not forget that it's public money that is redeveloping Queen Street station. To have a situation where the body responsible for doing the redevelopment says, well, we'll make a nice station. It's not our problem to figure out how that integrates. It's just that it's not viable if we want to have a really good, high-quality public transport infrastructure. Thank you. That's certainly a point that we'll be putting to Network Rail when they appear before the committee. Mr Partwell, do you have anything that you wish to add at this stage? Thank you, convener and member of the committee. My colleague Ang has already raised the importance of service with regard to assistance for disabled people. I'd like to talk a little bit if I may about the infrastructure. I respectfully submit to committee that the infrastructure of many of our urban stations does not lend itself to be used efficiently and effectively by disabled people or anyone for that matter. I will draw on Aberdeen as an example of that being my home station. You have a very busy shopping complex that you must navigate through that has varying obstructions, varying lighting, and the orientation to get from the railway station to the bus station. When you get to the bus station to go on to your on-way mode of transport, colleagues have already spoken about the importance of connectivity. I'll cite another example of poor infrastructure and that is at Stirling. The bus station is within the line of sight of the railway station. However, you must cross a busy access road. When I checked out a few days ago, there is no ground level indicators to show the crossing point where it is safe to do so in order to line up correctly with the point on the other side of the road to access to the bus station. If you don't orientate yourself correctly, you risk walking off the slip road, which leads down to the underpass at that point. There are various examples of walking-gisgences, poor markings that can be sighted at many skations. One can look to attitudinal adjustment to provide service. One must also look at the physical ground level obstructions that may pose hindricks to connectivity between intermodal change. The first question that I wanted to ask is a fairly simple one. How proactive are Network Rail and ScotRail with organisations about needs? There is an organisation called the Scottish Rail Accessibility Forum on which Network Rail and ScotRail sit, as do Maxx and a number of other disabled organisations, including the Scottish Disability Equality Forum, which is the overarching body of all local access panels and SATO, which is a pressure group, the Scottish Accessible Transport Alliance. We all sit round that table, so we do have regular meetings with both ScotRail and Network Rail. I'm not criticising either body for not consulting with us. I'll give you an example, and it's something very dear to Hussain's heart. I'll have to say, when the work was being done at Waverly, one of the things that we asked for was ground level lighting. Hussain made the point at the meeting that a lot of visually impaired people tend to look downwards. Therefore, having lighting to help you at ground level is very useful. Because Waverly Station is a historic monument that comes under building Scotland, they told us that that would spoil the aesthetics of the building. I leave you with that comment. Interesting to hear then that if you've got a historic building, you have to indulge yourself in historic practises. That is literally, we have it in writing, in the minutes of a meeting. That is what Network Rail said, because Network Rail managed Waverly Station, they only managed two stations, Waverly and Queens, no central. The rest are all managed by ScotRail. How responsive are they when you bring a subject up, even if they understand it, how quickly can they act? I think sometimes they act fairly quickly. I mean one of the things, and I keep going on about Waverly because at one point Waverly was a nightmare and I'm not saying it has improved all that much, but one of the things that we were looking for, for instance, you know you have to go up and down in lifts and across the bridge and the rest of it, it's very long for people with especially physical mobility problems and we asked for seating. There's now seating outside both lifts. There's still no seating however at the Carlton Road drop-off point and also there's no shelter at the Carlton Road drop-off point, but they are going to put in seating on the route from the Carlton Road drop-off point to the concourse. I'm waiting to say it, but actually I'm sure because they've put the other seating in that they will actually do so. So there are times when they are quite responsive, but there are other times where they just, and it's not Nestlé Network Rail or indeed ScotRail, it's sometimes the problem with the interface with another body, so it can be a local authority. I mean we had endless problems as Max, finding out who actually owned the land outside Haymarket Station. When Haymarket Station was being, you know, because Paymarket Station is a very good station now, but we eventually found after weeks that actually the land belonged to Edinburgh City Council, but it was so difficult to find out. Now that sort of thing is very frustrating because things that could improve, and it doesn't always need, you know, a lot of spend, just need a bit of thought, get delayed because you don't know who you're actually trying to talk to. We had a moment ago about issues of coordination responsibilities, but both Network Rail and ScotRail are largely funded through Transport Scotland. Do Transport Scotland do enough to coordinate? Well, it's actually Transport Scotland that provides the secretariat for the Scottish Rail Accessibility Forum, and I have to say that the dealings I've had, and I can only speak for Max with the real directorate, I think they do as much as they can, because the real directorate can help up to a point, and so can the sponsor division for the Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland, but then to the day it is Network Rail and ScotRail who take the decisions. Just two points, I think. It's sometimes even difficult to talk about, say, Network Rail as a whole. Going back to Waverly again when we were looking at it, there was a lot of very good changes being made by the station manager in the station, and particularly for cyclists, things like putting repair kits in, better cycle parking, all that sort of thing, and then Network Rail, I don't know, Network Rail Scotland, or if it was Network Rail down in London, made the decision to close off the access ramps, and until that point the station team there had actually been developing the north ramp as a specific cycle route into the station, and then suddenly both access ramps are closed to bikes, and it undermines the very good work that had been done at the station, and so there's clearly been issues even within a single organisation, and I think the second point I want to make is that in some ways it's difficult to answer the question because we now have the beginning of this new Network Rail, ScotRail Alliance, and we hope that that is the answer to the question and that we will see much better co-ordination between ScotRail and Network Rail, and also hopefully more responsiveness because I think our experience has been on the ground at individual stations, not just at Waverly, the station managers and the teams running the stations are very responsive and very friendly and helpful. It's when you get up into the sort of corporate levels of Network Rail and you know the response to the Queen Street consultation and their engagement with us on that is another example that it's just been a block, and hopefully the new ScotRail Alliance will see a more sort of engaged Network Rail and taking that aspect from the ScotRail side of things. The new ScotRail franchise that Abelio have? Yes, but you see the opportunities arising to take a different approach. Because there's this, as they call it, deep alliance between Network Rail and Abelio ScotRail, where there'll be an overall management team for both Network Rail Scotland and Abelio ScotRail. Hopefully with one managing director and management team overseeing both organisations, there'll be a more co-ordinated and engaged approach. Is there a role for stronger direction from Transport Scotland in co-ordinating at that level? I wouldn't like to say before we see how the alliance works out. I mean in a sense Transport Scotland was obviously instrumental in specifying the franchise, awarding the franchise and working out the details with the franchise, with Abelio and presumably Network Rail Scotland. So I think what we can say is that Transport Scotland has, I don't know what, you know, whose idea it was to create the deep alliance but Transport Scotland has certainly facilitated that and made sure that it's happened. So I think at this stage, as before we see how the alliance works out, I would say, we wouldn't want to say, you know, Transport Scotland should be doing more because maybe this is what needs to be done and that will be sufficient or more, you know, more than sufficient. Thank you. Okay. Mr Samson, do you have anything to ask? Yes, Transport Focus sits on the Scottish Rail Accessibility Forum as well, just listening to the evidence. Maybe part of the problem is the name, the Scottish Rail Accessibility Forum, Transport Scotland Network Rail and ScotRail should not be a Scottish Transport Accessibility Forum with more partners involved in that. We're talking about connectivity, bus companies, regional transport, partnerships involved at appropriate times because, again, if it's a Scottish Rail Accessibility Forum, we're looking at accessibility issues in a silo to a certain extent. I know that there's been a recent accessibility conference that's taken those issues forward but I think this is a new way of actually looking at it, rather than looking at rail accessibility, looking at overall transport accessibility. If I could mention this issue on Glasgow Queen Street, we were also concerned at the formal consultation network rail but since then we've worked with Network Rail and ScotRail and only today have been published on our website as a survey of what passengers want out of the Queen Street redevelopment. There's over a thousand passengers being surveyed by ourselves saying what's it like, the station just now catch one for the redevelopment and also looking at accessibility issues on it and also going forward there is now a partnership group involving Network Rail, ScotRail, the Buchanan Partnership, SPT and Glasgow City Council so they're all sitting round one table now so hopefully lessons have been learned from Edinburgh and other issues so that Queen Street will actually deliver what passengers want. Can I just say something about the idea of having a transport accessibility forum? There is a Roads for All forum as well and there's also a bus stakeholder group right so there's three. Now the two forums are external bodies, the bus stakeholder group is an internal transport Scotland committee on which Mac sits and so does CPT and sorry the confederation of passenger transport and the community transport association and indeed others. The something we have learned since the the accessible transport summit which most people found very useful and very productive is how we then take forward and the reason I say we is that it is the Mac's sponsor team that actually organised it and ran it in conjunction with Incluson Scotland and there is now a steering group set up on which Mac sits as do other disabled organisations and indeed Patrick and I'm not going to try and pronounce his surname, the Equality and Access Officer for ScotRail and indeed George Mayer from Convergeson and Passenger Transport, they all sit on it and we're looking at how we can take forward accessible transport issues and also the infrastructure that supports it because it's you know we're talking about bus stations and train stations and roads and pavements and everything like that because quite frankly it's not just the public transport part of it if when you go out of your house if you have a disability and that's you know I say physical sensory or cognitive if the way for you to get to your nearest bus stop is bad pavements no um no um sorry it's gotten where I am no no um bubble paving you know to show you where you're at at crossing um if none of those things are there then quite frankly it's why a lot of disabled people don't leave their house so it's it's everyone having to work together and the local authorities were also at the at the accessible transport summit because um a number of local authorities and indeed cosla and I'm we are hoping that what will come out of the steering group following that conference is a more joined up way of looking at it at at transport accessibility I I we've only had one meeting so I'm not going to predict anything coming out of it at the moment and it's going to depend on the goodwill and the time of all the people who are sitting around the table so I mean in a sense I hope you know what what Robert's just said there might be some steps you know being taken thank you Alex do you have any further questions okay thank you Mary you have some questions yes thank you convener can I start by asking you about signage because signage both within and around stations is of crucial importance to help passengers do that move on with their onward journey and also find their their platform so what improvements could be made to signage within stations to help people particularly with visual visual impairments get get around and are there any examples of good practice that the committee should be aware of thank you thank you very much for first of all for recognising the importance of signage and I could I could lack slirical all day about examples of signage I'll attempt not to but I think the the first point I say about signage is the environment in which the signage is located is variable so for example you could give me a large print sign with good contrast here and now and I'll come and tell you that's excellent I can just about make out the sign take it outside into the corridor there the lighting conditions are completely different we've got natural light which comes into play that sign suddenly may become unreadable and it's with one of the points that I made to network rail consultants when they were looking at signage and Waverly back in 2013 and I said you have to perform the testing in a variety of conditions summer winter lighting levels fluctuate that has a big impact on particularly visual impairment as you point out there ability to use signage the other issue is as you addressed there the lack of appropriate signage and particularly for intermobile change so if we look at Perth station for example which we've cited in our written submission the bus station is about a 10 minute walk away from Perth station the lay by for longest coaches is even further away I have yet to be told that there is signage in Perth that tells you a which station one must use depending on one's final destination b which services go from that station and see how to get there and even the signage to connect between a rail station and a bus station is either non-assistant or very unreliable and for disabled passengers also for passengers who are not familiar with the local landscape that has a big impact on their ability to comfortably connect and let us remember that a desire of many disabled people is to be as independent as possible and if they are able to manage signage without assistance that signage must be of satisfactory quality because of my level of visual impairment I'm perhaps not the best person for a committee to cite example to good practice what I will say though is any any attempt to look at signage or regulate signage create standards etc must put disabled people and the people that will use that signage at the heart of the matter and at the centre of the planning it would not do to simply take a series of what appear to be logical guidelines when the implementation in practice may well result in that signage not working and I think that's one point which the rail industry and indeed all transport needs to take up that it's always more cost effective more useful and more efficient if we can tackle problems at the outset rather than waiting until we have implementation which could result in a very costly redesign it also has to be at different levels because remember where somebody standing sees it is in one place where somebody sitting in a wheelchair sees it as to be in another I think that's very important so the transport organisation's not currently consult with people with disabilities in relation to signage in stations because I use Glasgow central station quite often and if I think of the signage at Glasgow central some of it's very high up some of it's very low down some of it is frankly quite confusing and it's very difficult to follow where you're meant to go particularly if there's late platform changes or if your train is at the front of a platform or at the rear of a platform and something that came to mind just as before committee started this morning and again it's particularly in relation to Glasgow central if the weather is particularly bad and in Scotland we all get we get a lot of very bad weather the concurses get very wet and very slippy and the signage for slippage is quite often a nae board which is situated on top of the slippy bit so I'd be interested in your thoughts on how that could be improved as well. You just highlighted an issue which I raise all the time at with Scarford Cascation and I've often wondered if I may pug in the humour here but why do we have yellow signs indicating slippage on a white or cream floor tiling for my point of view that would appear to be poor judgement for appropriate contrast and I just wonder I can't see the signs because I have no central vision the number of people that must walk into the signs trip over them and is that not the very thing we're attempting to avoid by putting the signs there and I do recall if I make a biddy one day saying to my local station staff if I could come in with a tin of black paint and outline the signs in black so that we may actually see where they are and I just wonder about the rationale behind that. I think a number of stations do work with their local access panels um in fact I know they do because I I live in the highlands and I know that my local station stations um Abbie Moore Newton Moore can you see and what have you some of which are unstaffed do work with their local access panel but there are occasions when things are done based from Inverness where they don't because it's somebody from Inverness that's coming to do something at Abbie Moore station and they don't talk to the local access panel it's about just reminding people that that's what access I mean max you know there are 15 of us and we work for one day a month sorry I work for two but the rest work for one there's no way we can cover all the stations in Scotland that's what local access panels are there for and they actually have a lot of very good information something that max can do to help them is actually provide um the sort of information that they might need to help them do that job more efficiently. Anyone else have any further comments? Of the captain's station's signage generically there is a code of practice and I think it runs into about 300 or 400 pages about accessibility at stations and it gives guidance on signage. I think it previously it was the documents in the midst of time because it was the strategic rail authority who originally produced it but prior to that there was a consultation which included disabled persons transport advisory committee so there are standards there there is a document there but it doesn't meet everyone's individual needs as has been pointed out by the other witnesses but there are a generic set of standards or guidelines in place. Is there a process in place to update that guidance and standards? Yes there is a process in place I believe it's the responsibility of the department for transport because accessibility is a a GB wide matter and they're responsible for updating that code of practice and consultation. The disabled persons transport advisory committee which is the UK I was going to say the UK equivalent of max. No I ought to say max is the UK equivalent is the Scottish Government of Denmark but no I like it I prefer it the way I said it yes. How often is that updated then? I would have to consult max has a member on the disabled persons transport advisory committee I would have to seek advice on that but I'm very happy to do so and let the committee know. Okay thank you. One other thing that was highlighted in evidence was the difficulty in managing across station concurses when stations are quiet because of the large open spaces or again when stations are unmanned and barrier gates are left open so how could improvements be made to help that situation? This is one I run across if I will take this one if I may. The principal problem with open spaces is the way in which and I will comment from a VI perspective I have no doubt that other disabilities may be affected likewise but is the process of wayfinding by landmarks and waypoints so if one takes a parallel with a GPS system one might decide to go from point A to point B and then point C until they reach the final destination. I and I have known many others use a similar process that I will enter the station make my way to a certain point a landmark it could be WX mix for example and then turn right and walk across the station from WX to the next point. When you couple large open spaces with reduced long distance vision that process breaks down and it's a bit of a balancing act because what you don't want to do is make the station so crowded it affects with a pedestrian flow but equally as I've just said you want to have these landmarking abilities so one can do that. I think that's a question of taking it on a case-by-case basis on the local infrastructure and it could be something as simple as changing the contrast so your pillars for example your supporting pillars become more visible one can use that as a landmark or it could be the way in which the lighting is arranged to give someone to latch on to. Actually a lot of stations are very good when it comes to barrier gates being open because there is a change of tactile surface but one also has to remember that not everyone will be skilled in the ways of being able to use these techniques not everyone uses a long cane a lot of visually impaired people people with autism go to have difficulty reading signage for example learning difficulties may find themselves vulnerable to risk appearing on a platform that gets unstaffed. I think these are risks which have to be managed on a case-by-case basis depending on the usage of the station and the scarf rotors but certainly it is an issue and it is a problem and if I may go evolves just very briefly at a time when there has been there has been talk on the grapevine about increasing the number of unmanned stations and reducing the hours at which manscations are manned this is certainly a major concern for the future in terms of accessibility and the ability to independently use our rail infrastructure. Can I just finally ask you about lighting because you've touched on lighting a couple of times in the answers that you've given and if I think of Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street stations in particular where they have an upper level station and a lower level station and when you go from the upper level which is very bright and on the journey down to the lower level it becomes dark and the level of lighting in the lower level is at a different level to the upper. How much of a problem is that and is it just simply a case of making it a standard brightness of lighting throughout the station? I think that's a problem not just for visually impaired people but I mean we've spoken very little about cognitive disability and I think that things like lighting and signage is a real problem for people with cognitive difficulties who want to live as independent lives as they can you know if you have a learning disability or if you have autism and you cannot relate to the to the place that you're in you see what I mean then things like good signage and consistent signage and consistent lighting is actually very important. Okay thank you. Does anyone else want to comment on that? Okay thank you. James. You've already mentioned on a number of occasions the problems you have with passengers travelling between rail and bus stations and they either can't receive assistance or receive assistance through the goodwill of the staff. Further from what you've said earlier on is there any other ways that you can see this situation being remedied? For example that partnership group you're talking about Mr Samson from Queen Street would that type of idea would it be a good idea to have that replicated around most if not all stations where the local authorities, the bus services and the train services are brought together? I believe there's a number of improvements planned for stations. You've got to get everyone involved not just the rail industry but the local authority, the bus operator, even the local taxi firm as well because they all have their part to play. On the particular issue of passenger assist which Ian mentioned earlier transport focus carries out a survey of passenger assist with ScotRail and with every other train operating company in Great Britain to see how it actually performs if the service actually delivers what people require and to be fair most of the time it does. It works very well and when we point out when it doesn't then the rail industry I quick to point it out but one of the criticisms we've had from the passengers who use passenger assist is that it's great, it's a wonderful system, we have confidence in the rail staff, they're friendly, they're efficient, they're helpful but I'm left 10 yards outside the railway station and I don't know where to go after that or I'm left to cope with what's been pointed out. That's one of the things that has been borne out in our evidence, yes. That's the thing that I'm suggesting should be discussed at such a forum. Just to relate to that, one of the recommendations that came out of our interchange project was that thought should be given to create an active travel friendly standard but some standard and this wasn't just about cyclists but about people, pedestrians as well and it was specifically also not that you would do lots of great work at the station and then you get the badge but that it requires the overall area and the sort of wider consideration and something along those lines needs to be done because that addresses things like consistent signage both within stations but then once you get out providing not just good signage between different transport modes but actually thinking through those links and making sure that they are convenient and accessible and it would also encourage the sort of coordination between bodies so there's a balance obviously, you know it's you don't want new standards, new certification programmes for everything because it becomes unmanageable but there is also I think an argument to be made to say we have these problems with the sort of silos of different work being done, different varying standards within cities, between cities and all that and why don't we look at what we'd like to see as a high quality standard across Scotland and put in place a mechanism whereby we can we can recognise when that's happened and that that includes not individual facilities but but sort of working together to provide these these high quality environments for pedestrians, for cyclists and all people that that encompasses. I think the other thing I would say is I would support the partnerships and working between bodies and between different modes of transport. I think it's in everybody's interest to make the system as usable as possible because able people do wish to travel and that cousin's cop simply act the entrance to the railway station and simply because rail is a very accessible means of travel and I would absolutely support the involvement of disabled people in that partnership so that we we spread the onus and we we spread the responsibility towards providing an efficient and meaningful and useful service to our disabled travelers. If I may convener, this committee used to be called the Transport Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee when I first appeared before it, it's a long time ago now, but it's interesting because we've been talking about you know the passenger, the travel, but in actual fact anything that the transport industry and local authorities can do to encourage the use of public transport is good for Scotland's climate change aims and I mean I think we all right we because we're from max we've been concentrating on the disabled traveler but there is a wider perspective and that is encouraging people to use good quality public transport and in order to do that you have to get the connectivity right. Can I just go on then to the matter of taxi ranks? How is the accessibility to taxi ranks? I mean I can only speak for Glasgow I think which is not bad I mean the likes of just now anyway at Queen Street and the upper level I'm not so sure about the lower level but in the upper level you go straight out to the taxi rank but I can't really speak for too many of the other stations I know that with the changes it might be slightly different but you're shaking your head Mr McLean would you like to respond first? It varies all over Scotland I suppose. I mean we have barely touched on the removal of access to cars and and taxis to Waverley station in actual fact we were told that it was the UK government under security measures that taxes were banned from Waverley and taxes to cars were banned from Waverley but I've heard all sorts of different stories since so who knows but we take Waverley taxis used to be able to kin they're now it's now at Carleton Road I've already complained about that there's no shelter there's no seats and if you're waiting for your assistance it's you know you can be there for some time that's not the fault of the assistance people please don't misunderstand me but they get there as quick as they can. The taxi rank at at market street is on the left hand side we're told it's going to change to the right hand side so the first taxi is near is nearer to the station exit whereas at the moment it can be all the way up the road Inverness which another one I know now there are spaces for three taxis in in the in the station square if there's no taxis there you have to walk two sides of the square and along academy street to get to the taxing rack now for somebody and by the way the pavements are shocking but that's different issue now for somebody who is who has a mobility problem or in a wheelchair or visually important whatever their disability or even if you're carrying a lot of luggage or you have young children in push chairs it's a long way to go and it just you know that's to be fair there usually are three in the in this little sort of semi-circle um I can sort of yes well we we talked about haymarket where the taxi rank is right at the other side of the road um you would have to cross the tram lines and the road to get to the taxi rank um Perth is just outside I think yes it's just outside sterling is on the other side of the road sometimes but sometimes there's a few taxes on the same side of the station but you never know um I doubt the places have we looked at um we have a we have an issue um in Abertyn whereby the location is the taxi rank which is underneath the station roof it's on the station premises it's another problem the issue we do have is um taxi firms must apply for a permit to use the taxi rank now one of the the larger taxi companies in Abertyn have decided that they don't wish to pay for the permit which is unscangable um their pickup point is technically out with the station premises so you have the issue which we've called it already touched on regarding the insurance and liability of the assistance to get you to that point you also have an issue of security um because that point is not within the station it's on on council land um it's just outside shopping centre you have teenagers young people people going out hanging around on a Friday night it's not the most confident area that one could wait for a taxi from um and not probably not the safest pickup point either because one must cross an access road that does not have a man crossing um and it's also on a blind spot for vehicles so at that particular point we have two issues whereby yes there's a provision of a taxi rank but it's not entirely usable um or accessible and that's guaranteed of women's or the taxi company whether they wish to use it or not requirement for the different bodies to be working together to make sure there's a joint approach to it absolutely and i mean even the installation of a control crossing at that point would inspire confidence one could at least get across that access road to wait for their taxi to pick them up the infrastructure changes logically and i don't profess to be an expert in infrastructure but they don't seem to be significantly vast but the rewards and the returns would certainly lend themselves to a more usable environment okay Queen Street yes Queen Street's a good example of actually a good taxi rank it's on the flat you walk out the the left sorry if you're facing you walk out the left hand side and the taxis are there and you're undercover that is a really good example of a really accessible taxi rank as McLean mr part but i think you deserve full marks for um seeking to provide us with and the committee with an overview of taxi facilities all of the stations in Scotland but can i bring you back to Edinburgh Waverley which is of course the station that serves the capital city as the gateway for the whole of scotland can i ask what level of consultation was there with your committee prior to network rail imposing the ban on vehicle access to Waverley station either in terms of the initial ban or the re-imposition of that ban which had been lifted temporarily there was no consultation with us at all we were told and it came from i understand it the department for transport the taxis were going oh by the way Waverley was the only station where there was taxi and vehicle access right into the station whether that's true or not i do not know um but it was to be banned and as i say we were originally told it was on security grounds but it the direction came from uh uk level so there was no consultation and i think um sorry there's somebody else gave evidence um an msp Sarah Boyack and i because she's obviously had complaints as a local msp about that and i think she too says that there was no and as far as we know there was no consultation with the Edinburgh access panel because one of our um colleagues on the max committee is also on the Edinburgh access panel just to reassure you we will be raising that issue directly with network rail when they appear before us so that's why i was very keen to have your views on the record this morning in terms of um what disabled access to the taxi ranks that have been relocated at market street and Calton road how difficult or onerous has that been for disabled passengers so in particular what are the what's your view on the signage arrangements that have been put in place and also network rail have highlighted that they've made an investment in infrastructure in terms of lifts at either side of the station to improve access for disabled people do you think that that arrangement is one that is working or not well there's no taxi rank at Calton road it's merely a drop-off point or if you if you know of an Edinburgh taxi number you can ring it and that's where they'll pick you up but a lot of people passing through Edinburgh do not have the telephone number for a an Edinburgh taxi market street as i say is it's a long walk but they have put seats in where you have to wait for the lifts not not on is it what's that long platform platform 19 right not on platform 19 which is where you wait for the lift you know if you're going up up from the concourse um and then you have to walk across the bridge and then there's another two lifts and it's a bit complicated an actual fact i only know my way around because i happen to know my way around if you see what i mean you know you use the station often enough and you i do not know how people who do not know Waverly station and want to get to market street because as far as i know and i agree i'm visually impaired i do not know and somebody may know better wether there's signage within Waverly station that says the taxi rank is at market street and i don't think there is and i tell you something else and this is absolutely true oh it's Annick it's Annick Dottl i suppose but i was i was travelling with the the the head of the of of max's sponsor team back back from a meeting and we met a woman standing outside um the market street entrance to Waverly station and she she had a stick and she saw me with my stick and my guide dog and she said oh do you know how i get down the lift isn't working now i can manage with the dog and the stick to get down the steps but the lift wasn't working now this is something we have asked network real about about what their contingency plans are when the lifts don't work now this is the person and yes i am going to say it because the the head of i think it's the head of network real scotland i might be wrong i would have to check says that Waverly is now more successful than it has ever been i have not met a disabled person that agrees with that statement and if we have asked what contingency plans there are in the event of the lifts being out of action and the answer is that they will be um repaired very quickly now that may be all right if a train that you want to get runs every quarter of an hour if like me you live in the highlands and the trains are only two hours if you miss a train you've got two hours until the next one not funny and i think it's i really do think that that Waverly the other answer is of course there are also escalators while there are in certain places but i usually travel with a guide dog and i'm sorry you can't take a guide dog on a an escalator you may have seen these signs in london you know dogs and pushears as much we carry i don't fancy carrying my guide dog i have to tell you he's a very large flat lavador um but it there is no satisfactory answer if there is a breakdown and you're at carton road the nearest place would be to go around to market street well i wouldn't want to walk around it i wouldn't know where to go and i mean i know edinburgh reasonably well if you were you i have to say my choice when there isn't work on Waverly bridge which there is at the moment is to ask the taxi driver to drop me at the top of the ramp at Waverly bridge and i just walk down that to me is by far the easiest access but that's not what network rail recommend they recommend that anyone accessing the pin by taxi should be dropped off at carton road and i just think i think carton road is the most uncomfortable place it's also dark and unpleasant have you asked your members what they would like to see in terms of a solution to the the problems that exist at Waverly for do they believe that taxi should be readmitted to the station or not it's not something i've asked them but judging by the number of people with disabilities that i speak to i know that most people say wasn't it good in the days when the taxi could take you right into Waverly i mean there is absolutely no doubt about that would you we saying would you agree i would absolutely agree and i think one thing that we must take into account of committee if i may is the increasing drain and spraying on resources that has happened since the taxi bank was implemented in the probably too young to use the phrase but in the good old days when taxes were away for you you know your taxi dropped you off outside their office helped you into the door and you were out of your taxi within perhaps a minute or two at most and the taxi moved on and that was that intermodal change was was sorted and also it meant that the number of assists per hour was significantly higher than it is now now i will add by my plaudits to to colleague ann here that the assist staff at Waverly and indeed the other Scottish case that i've used do a fantastic job and cannot be held responsible for any usually for any delays that happen but what it does mean get an assist to a platform which use could take for let's say two minutes now takes roughly seven because of the increase travel time to the taxi rank and back again very often if i'm traveling i find assists are having to manage two or three passengers at once there may be on trains that are back to back on the same platform so they're having to multitask i'm not saying this reduces the quality of service but it certainly increases the strain on the scarf involved so i don't think that the taxi band generally has helped anybody i with the utmost respect cannot agree that it makes Waverly the accessible and you know if i had a wish list i would have taxes back as was i accept that there are other competing pressures in terms of the issue around air quality but i think it's very important to be get the perspective of people who are who have mobility issues to people with push chairs and children and you know lots of luggage who are perhaps going away on a nice long holiday and they decided to take you know something fresh to wear every night you know day two struggle and i mean i have watched it as much as i can people with you know double buggies you know it's just as bad for them you know especially if you've got a toddler in tow as well you know okay i'm going to seek the indulgence of the committee to ask one final question on Waverly and that is if you had a message for network rail what would it be bring the taxis back in are i okay actually not just taxes because to be fair i suppose a lot of people came to Waverly in their own cars you know they would take some now at the moment if you if you take a car and you can park in new street car park um but it's still a fail fair hall then from the and and you can wait half an hour 40 minutes now all right i'll just increase the waiting time to 40 minutes but if your train is delayed and you're helping a passenger into the station now you know considering your your passenger may be frail for example what what takes a fit asl perhaps three or four minutes to make their way from car park to platform may take 10 to 20 minutes and would give most respect committee i don't exaggerate there and if your train happens to be running late the person who is assisting you who may well went to wish and may wish to wait with you until you're safely on board in a way then has to face the issue of perhaps being penalised for something that is you know not their responsibility and and something that they could not perhaps foresee yes um since we're on Edinburgh Waverly station and issues of access and signage could i ask mr samson on you've obviously done work transport focus have done work with passengers on assessing the improvements and and the like that have been brought in by network rail um do you have any comments um that you can add to these observations that we've received about Edinburgh Waverly? After the recent work had been completed at Edinburgh Waverly we did a survey of about a thousand passengers at Edinburgh Waverly to see what they thought of the improvements. Most of the improvements had been noted and people actually rated the station the more satisfied with the station but there were still problems relating to signage and accessibility in terms of the lifts escalators working but overall passengers felt it was a better station after the investment obviously than prior to it. Does the evidence that you've heard here that was that reflected in in the passenger surveys as well? The evidence is reflected because passengers know about taxis etc is variable across Scotland what passengers want is a taxi as close to the station as possible with a flat walking surface to it and if um the situation at Edinburgh Waverly before the change was better for passengers than it is now when you've got to go up steps lifts etc and it's uncovered so it was better passengers do want the taxis to be as close to the station entrance as possible so if you've actually got taxis in the station it's better for passengers in that regard. In short both access and signage issues still remain. It's not an accessibility issue but it's still a concern for passengers that the late platform changes at Edinburgh Waverly getting from one end of Edinburgh to another can result in passengers missing trains and it's even worse for the passengers that mobility access committee Scotland are here talking about today but it's still a great problem and signage is still a problem at Waverly today but it hasn't proved. Just on Waverly and the changes I think our big concern is it's well frankly it's ridiculous that there's two access ramps down with effectively no I mean a handful of delivery vehicles on one of the ramps and both pedestrians well everyone's a pedestrian on the ramp because you obviously can't cycle down but you know people with luggage people with bikes people in wheelchairs people with prams whatever are corralled into these narrow walkways with newly resurfaced wide roadways next to them just lying empty and it's you know it's astounding and we don't have a particular view on the taxis but certainly I don't see whether taxis are allowed into the station or not there's plenty of space you know we've got two ramps and why there can't be one of those ramps that has a wide walkway and a two-way cycle lane is beyond me because the space is there the ramps are nice and you know people both walking or with bikes prefer to be able to just walk into the station without having to reverse square stairs and lifts and I think it should also be noticed noted that the new scott rail alliance is going to deliver a cycle hub at Waverly and Aberdeen and at Glasgow but it would be it would be crazy to deliver a cycle hub in Waverly and have such severely restricted access to the station and I guess the other thing to note is that Network Rail is redeveloping the south ramp or reconfiguring the south ramp because they're extending platform 12 and again that's an opportunity so you know there's there's work to be done for a cycle hub there's work to reconfigure the south ramp the work's going to happen anyway it should be thought through so that the conditions for pedestrians and cyclists are improved to access the station David My first question is to Mr Warren. You've already outlined I think some of the recommendations in your interchange project. I was very interested in the recommendations particularly around the active travel hubs could you tell the committee a little bit more information about that? Yeah of course one of the things we found is that well sorry so the the idea of active travel hubs is is well is now established in the UK we've we have a handful in Scotland there's a there's a cycle hub in Stirling and there's one in Pollock Shores west in Glasgow and what they offer varies depending on the location so you might have a station that is primarily for commuter traffic that provides parking and quick repairs that sort of thing you might at bigger stations have a larger facility that offers sales and the one at Stirling for instance will helps with route planning and provides bicycle hire and that sort of thing so so what we're recommending is that that's extended not just to cater for cyclists but also to cater for pedestrians people who arrive in a place and want to know easy ways to get around whether it's walking around the town or to get to the bus station or ferry terminal or whatever but that these hubs should enable and it goes back to what Ann was saying about you can't look at people aren't just going to take the train they've got to then go somewhere from the train or you know the bus and so it facilitates that by making taking away that concern that you arrive somewhere and you don't know where to go and you don't know where to get your your next sort of transport option and by their nature these active travel hubs would vary based on stations and they wouldn't all be operated by you know we're not suggesting that say transport Scotland operates a network of active travel hubs or ScotRail or wherever but so ScotRail will have some and and other providers will have others but there should be some coordination between them to create effectively a network a support network for pedestrians and cyclists across Scotland so that you can kind of get passed on you know if you're going a longer distance or you're traveling to another station you can get recommended on to the next one you know that you'll have some sort of support in terms of the information and the facilities that that you require there. You said this to transfer Scotland and you'll be looking for them to then respond to you. Yes and they they have been they have been positive in general terms but I think the issue is and I know there's European funding to develop active travel hubs and as I've said the new ScotRail franchise has that commitment for three main cycle hubs and some smaller facilities at other stations so but I think what's been missing from our standpoint is we've not been asked to engage in the process and we're not sort of clear on what the process is to use the European funding and how the the active travel hubs how the concept is being developed by Transport Scotland and whether while they've been generally positive about the idea of a network whether there are any plans to actually create more of a comprehensive support network or not. I'm personally very interested in utilising European funding and certainly have been nagging to our government but some of the outstanding European funding is there like the 10T and wider things like which involve ferry services like Marco Polo and so on at my belief although there's matching issues that there's still a lot more work to be done utilising European funding. What about in future franchise arrangements? We've obviously just had recent awards at least the sleeper, the London service and so on whether there should be more definition in these franchise agreements which says that there shall be the falling hubs and the falling stations as a condition in the future franchise. That's difficult to say because I wouldn't want to say in a blanket statement Transport Scotland is better at specifying where the hubs should be and if we look at the existing active travel hubs those have been done have developed at the local level and are therefore appropriate to where they are. So certainly the approach that Bellio has taken to date with its plans has been very much engaging with the various stakeholders to understand what the needs are and that approach is one we welcome. I think there is potentially more work that can be done if we look at other modes of transport because obviously there's the ferry franchising and as far as I'm aware there's no impetus for improving cycle provision and I know this is slightly out with the remit of what we're discussing here but it does go back to the fact that we look at transport as very segregated modes and obviously the bus system being deregulated makes it much more difficult but bus stations are very chaotic in terms of different owners, managers etc. There's no level of standard so I think that's in these other areas where Transport Scotland should be thinking about how they can bring their influence to bear so that it's not as long as where you need to go you can get to by rail you're okay but if you've got to change to the bus station or the ferry then you know all bets are off. I think that's a big point in conscious to Incommator but certainly that you, Adam McLean mentioned the previous committee which a number of members were on and we did a major ferry inquiry and certainly the consultation we took at places like Obann talked about when the ferry comes in just as the train or the bus is departed and everyone at transport conferences talks a good game about integration. My experience is that it doesn't happen that well because partly as you've mentioned there's internal integration in other words buses have to meet other buses and sometimes talking to other modes it doesn't work and if I give one example it was your indulgence convener. I thought in the last inquiry we did showed how we don't have integration is different modes of travel don't even coordinate when winter ends and summer season starts. Now if you can't get that right you have a real problem. Perhaps the other witnesses would like to comment on Mr Warren's comments. I don't think so. I'm not going to say that no disabled people cycle but it's not, but we do walk, we do walk. Most people are pedestrians. No I support what he's been saying and I do have some again coming back to Waverly. I do, he's right as I think I said my preferred method of getting into Waverly station when there's no work being done on the bridge is to be dropped off and walk down the ramp and he's right of course it's you know it's a narrow ramp and you're competing with people coming up as well as going down and there's all this space. I presume I may well be wrong is that the fear is that somebody will try and drive down. I mean I'm only assuming I'm not here to speak for Network Rail. Thank you for my final question convener. I would just first of all want to flag up the work that the committee's done on surveying. We had almost 5,000 results to online surveying. I'd like to thank the clerks for all the work they've done here. In my experience that's one of the highest returns that any committee has ever done, so if I can be self-congratulatory I think I will be on this particular one. But our survey suggests a lack of cycle parking stations and those which are available are not easy to access or particularly secure. Does this try Mr Warren with your research? Yeah, by and large. I mean there's some examples where there is good cycle parking covered, secure ample but by and large I mean Aberdeen's actually a good example. There's no cycle parking within the station despite the fact that there's plenty of space to enable that and the staff there, the local station staff sort of had heard rumours that maybe it would happen but you know again it was one of these things that was happening higher up and doesn't seem to be. And then the nearest parking to the station is in a very dark, basically just a dark dank area and so it's unused but then there is cycle parking in Union Square and in surrounding areas but completely oversubscribed because the cycle parking that isn't, that feels secure and has you know is convenient things you know bikes chain to railings and things like that. So that's an example of a major station where it's not even a space issue it's just not being done and there's a demand for cycle parking and yeah I mean Waverly actually has good quality cycle parking and we didn't manage to audit Glasgow Central. I know there's quite a lot of cycle parking but the last time I was there anecdotally it was full so the issue is also of capacity and we hope with again the cycle commitments in the new Abelio franchise that that these issues will be addressed and also that they'll improve the quality at the minor stations too. Okay and would any other witness like to comment? On the cycle parking it's a rather like the provision of taxes it's very variable but in the last ScotRail franchise operated by First Group there was a commitment to put cycle parking facilities in most if not all ScotRail stations. Now bearing in mind that a large number of those stations are unmanned stations even putting in the provision a query if that's the best use of the funds because a good number of cyclists will not leave their cycle an unmanned station for a large amount of time they would rather take it on the train or hire one at their other point so there's a questionnaire about adequate it's not just providing the facilities it's got to be adequate for the cyclist's needs. It does and I have to say that even at smaller stations I often see at least one of the cycle racks in use I think the bigger problem was not thinking through I mean this and this is something that we found with a number of cycle facilities so an example here would be Oben which does have cycle parking but the Oben station that the car park goes down the length of the platform and the cycle parking was put at the far end of the car park and the entrance you see you have to walk the length of the platform go in the entrance and then then walk back down and it's uncovered and there's a right by the entrance there's the big pay and display machine with a big canopy over it and a trolley rack and of course what the there was a bicycle chain to the trolley rack because they didn't you know want to walk down so it's its details like that and I think the other thing which is not cycle parking but is related to issues around lifts and and access and trying to optimise access is something that's simple that can be done for cyclists is wheel wells on stairs because a lot of cyclists would if they can prefer not to have to wait for the lift and contend with people who have luggage and all that sort of thing and that's fairly simple to do and people can wheel their bikes up easily. Waverly this has been done on the Colton road entrance but then the wheel well is right next to the wall and so if you try and wheel a bike up the pedals hit the railings and you can't actually get the bike up so it's it's these sort of things where cycle parking is put in or wheel wells are put in but the specification isn't done by someone who's actually thinking how it's going to be used and so then it just doesn't get used and that is a waste of money and that's more of a concern for us I think than people not using it. What you're saying is that it seems to be that some of the active travel cycle facilities are designed with people who've never been on a bike in their lives which it's not too clever so your idea of having an architect and yeah and that's why we think having an architect and it's also going back something Ann said about sort of designing for people with disabilities designing for convenient access for people with cycles and for pedestrians should really go right at the so when we have Queen Street development there should be someone on the design team from the beginning responsible for thinking about these active travel issues the cycling and the walking access so that they can be designed in and it makes a huge difference to the effectiveness and the costs. Thank you, convener. Just following on from that line of questioning can ask you in terms of the recommendations that Transform Scotland have made arising from their recent research that is to say the active travel friendly standard the active travel hubs and the appointment of an active travel architect what level of engagement have you had with Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government in order to take those recommendations forward? Well we've I mean we've obviously we we actually sent them a draft copy of the report and and the final report and as I say we've we've received a positive response on a general level but nothing specific in terms of actually taking it taking the recommendations forward. What are the next steps then if this is not just to be another report that gathers dust? Well so okay taking them separately the active travel hubs I think that's that's an area where there is already clear movement and in fact the the active travel conference next week I'm running a workshop on active travel hubs where we're we will hopefully get some some of these stakeholders engaged so we can we can look at at what the best next steps are. As I say Transport Scotland has some level of funding, Abelio or the ScotRail alliance has a commitment to deliver cycle hubs so I think that's one where we'd hope that there's already movement there and so what needs to happen is Transport Scotland actually not necessarily micromanaging the implementation details of every active travel hub but provide the broad overview to make sure that there is some sort of connection between the different operators of travel hubs and that the process for developing the active travel hubs is appropriate in terms of making sure they fit with the local needs and are appropriate for their location and that we get a decent spread of them so that we have have them in reasonable locations. What are you doing to ensure that we secure access to the European funding that you mentioned earlier? That that is something Transport Scotland has been doing. I'm not involved with that specifically I'm just aware that Transport Scotland was working on that and to my understanding is they have secured it but I I'd have to I can certainly get back to you with the details of that if that's of use. The new ScotRail operator, Abelio, just staying with you Mr Warren if I may, has committed to significant investment in new cycling facilities and we've alluded to that already this morning. How significant do you think that will be in improving accessibility at our major railway stations for cyclists and are there any additional measures that you would want them to address in addition to what's already been highlighted by the company? It's not so much additional issues I think it will a lot will depend on the details so I think the broad the broad strokes of what they're planning are are excellent. It's then it goes back to these what I was talking about in terms of you know where you place the cycle parking whether it's covered if you put cycle lockers in do people even know how to use them where they can get a key from if they can reserve them so I think it will it will be the details that are important and so far as I said before Abelio has been very engaged and not just with us but in general and I think if they continue along that path and they listen to feedback I think there's a good chance that the improvements that are planned will make a significant difference and raise the standards. If I could return to the issue of Waverly for completeness I'd like to ask you the question that I asked Miss McLean and that is what level of consultation was there with your organisation prior to Network Rail imposing the ban on vehicles entering the station given that that has now had a knock-on effect for cyclist and pedestrians as you outlined earlier? There's none at all and in fact we had been what we were auditing Waverly at the time as part of the interchange project and we had very good communication with the station manager and as I say they she and her team had created the route on the north ramp and she was doing a lot of very proactive good work and it must have come as a surprise to her because it clearly wasn't in the plan and so it was a surprise to us as well. Do you see that as being an illustration of the attitude of Network Rail which you referred to in the context of Queen Street around not considering transport integration to be part of their remit? Is that another example of that approach? To this point I'd like stress because obviously things I hope will change with the new alliance structure but to this point Network Rail Scotland has not been very receptive to our input and to the idea of considering the wider integrated transport implications. Mike, you've got some questions? Yes, thank you. I've got a great deal of sympathy for pretty much everything I've heard here this morning. Living as I do on a tiny island on the west coast with no roads and no cars I don't also tend to use public transport very often and when I do occasionally go into... We're having too much sympathy for Mr McKenzie. I'm not seeking sympathy but I kind of understand how you feel in as much as on the few occasions that I go into stations I find them confusing and actually quite frightening places and I thought that Anne McLean made a very powerful point when she said that that when these access arrangements are good for people who suffer from disabilities they're also good pretty much for everybody and just bearing that in mind I wondered if you've done any research more generally amongst rail passengers to see if accessibility is important to people, to passengers more generally we can I think all grasp the importance for people suffering from disabilities but how much you know importance to people more generally placed on accessibility. We published a report last year passenger priorities on Britain's railway and it broke it down into countries what passengers wanted to see in Scotland, England, the north of England, the south west, the south east and the priorities have been very much the same. Most of the priorities came out in train factors actually reliability punctuality when it came to stations it was about the availability of station staff. Passengers like to see a staff presence at stations was about being safe and secure at stations accessibility as well but there's a list there on a website I couldn't give you the priorities off the top of my head but it does actually prioritise what passengers want to see at stations and one of the top ones was nothing to do with this but it was actually Wi-Fi at stations but there is a priority matrix there that we have that I can share with the committee. Thank you very much and I just wonder then even if there are any particular groups within that study that you did who maybe do other than people with disabilities who play something and I think mentioned you know mothers with prams you know people with luggage are there any other groups beyond people suffering from disabilities who place a you know a higher emphasis on accessibility? Basically the groups you've picked out you could be a commuter going to work on a Monday just with your briefcase but in the weekend you travel with your children you've got buggy you've got luggage etc so you need to change on whatever purpose your journey is and you know accessibility it doesn't disbenefit the mobility access it benefits all passengers all groups basically elderly young mothers young fathers. I mean I absolutely agree with you but are people aware of that are there any particular groups who are aware of that when they respond to consultations and so on say yep mothers young you know young families we place a higher importance on this than the general group of passengers? The way that we conduct our surveys and break it down is basically in age profile and the purpose of your journey whether you're traveling on business commuter leisure it isn't in those ways that you're actually looking at it but maybe there's ways that we could look at it in those terms but that information we don't have to hand I'm afraid. Yeah I mean I mean this was brought home to me some of us were on a committee trip in connection with another inquiry to Gothenburg in Sweden and we were um went to the railway station to you know as part of our journey and I was thinking that it should have been called Tranquility Central or something like that it was quite unlike any of the the railway stations that you get in this country that seem to me to be chaotic noisy confusing and so on and I think if you were to conduct a a survey of passengers in Sweden um you might get quite a different emphasis on you know what they place an importance on and and my point really I'm leading up to my final question which is are you aware of any examples of good practice from other countries from other parts of this country or in a slight adjunct to that are there you know we're increasingly embracing technology as a solution to some of the problems that we face are there any technological maybe IT solutions for the kind of problems that we've been talking about this morning? We have done work with passengers in one of the barriers to using not just the rail network but buses as well as uncertainty you know for people who use public transport day in day out easy going into a station going up to the ticket counter buying a ticket you take it for granted but a lot of people it's unknown they don't know for exact no it's exact fare only and you pay on the bus you know that it's just the uncertainty of it you don't know how to purchase a railway ticket or a bus ticket it's actually go back to that to that how that's simple because I've never used public transport for many many years and they wouldn't know how to go about it that's one of the the barriers that have to be overcome maybe technology does have a part to play in that going forward but the barriers actually not not being all fav of the system where it be any type of public transport. Thank you maybe if I just pick up on that quickly you know one of the solutions to that is sort of a properly integrated smart card and if you any of you ever visit London when I visit London I have this oyster card which obviously don't need a season ticket or whatever but it just stores an amount of cash on it and then you know it is a lot less stressful using public transport even it's easier for me to do that than it is to go to Glasgow and try and use the buses because as a resident of Edinburgh I know how the buses work here I just you know I'll walk in Glasgow instead of taking the bus because I'm just not exactly sure which bus you know whether it's exact fare or whatever but you know you go to London and you don't worry about that because you know you've got the card and you're just going to touch it to go in and so I think also going back to questions about how Transport Scotland can bring some sort of order to to some of this the ticketing situation specifically is one where if we had a consistent you know that's where technology could be used and the readers are installed in buses across Scotland because of Transport Scotland's investments we actually have the infrastructure largely in place but it's the logistics of of getting you know multiple companies to accept the same thing and and obviously work that out but that's an area where we could see a lot of improvement I think thank you examples of good practice from elsewhere or examples of the use of technology some examples of good practice that help disabled people actually happening here in Scotland because it started with SESTRANS and then TACTRANS and now HYTRANS and I'm hoping it's going to to spread all across Scotland and it's a card that you can use on the bus or the train it says what your disability is it says what kind of help you need and it's excellent and it's supported by the confederation of passenger transport have also you know got a similar sort of card and the more regional transport partnerships introduced them the more I think people will be more at ease using public transport because you just have to show this card you don't have to go into length the explanations and it says things like I have mobility problem please wait till I sit down or I cannot see please show me which way to put my card into the you know the machine and it's quite simple and I'm told by SESTRANS, TACTRANS and HYTRANS that that's how it doesn't cost a great deal so it's cost effective because it makes people more willing to use public transport not just trains obviously but all public transport and that's that's good practice in Scotland which I think we ought to be quite proud of what was getting on and you've reminded me that you mentioned for instance Queen Street the taxi rank situation at Queen Street was an example of good design good practice you know once it's all been redone sure it's good at the moment are there any stations given that we're talking about accessibility and we're talking about stations are there any stations you've ever come across that are a joy to use from the point of view the perspective of the difficulties that people with disabilities you know experience? May I highlight sterling if I may convene? I use sterling quite regularly it's what I like to call a clean station as opposed to one that's full with obstacles it's straightforward it's bright it's airy one walks into the front straight up to the gate line there's scarf waiting just there to assist you there are less than half the platforms that sterling are used for frequent services the scares as was highlighted in the submission although there are quite a lot of them the the depth of each step is very shallow so for somebody who has trouble climbing scares that can often make it a lot easier it also means you can get up the scares faster if one needs to if one still wishes and it's just a station which you know I could I could actually consider using that station independently if I had to there are no real areas of concern where one could so we get lost there's level lift access across the tracks that's available and it's just a station with ticks and awful other boxes I mean yes there are issues outside the station but if we look at the station infrastructure itself and you mentioned the term which I would like to use and I have to say sterling is there's some smaller stations in Scotland that are actually a pleasure to use um and actually I have to say some of them are unstaffed but just like to say something unstaffed stations because we I've been talking about passenger assist and our sadness is that not not as many people know about it as we would like to happen but one of the things that passenger assist will do is if your nearest station is not accessible or unstaffed and you would feel safe they will actually pay for a taxi for you to your nearest accessible station now I think that's another example a very good practice thank you very much that's been very useful thank you um can I invite members to ask any final questions they may have mary thank you convener can I ask a very um brief question and it relates back to the the issue of signage and I'm thinking specifically of signage in a station that's undergoing a major refurbishment and if you think about a station that's not being mentioned this morning which is undergoing major refurbishment dundee dundee the waterfront in dundee has been undergoing major refurbishment for a number of years and I know there are difficulties accessing the station for someone that has absolutely no disabilities it's a very confusing station to get in and out of because of the the degree of work that's getting done and it obviously links into the work that will be getting done at Glasgow Queen Street as part of the the egypt upgrade upgrade so do network rail or transport scotland consult with max about what could be done to make it easier for passengers I wasn't waverly was all there are people in waverly which we hoped would produce lovely things which it did by the way while the taxes were still allowed in um I can't resist getting that dig in every time um they know um the I have to say network rail and the station manager and staff consulted max about signage while the work was going on and indeed you will see still in places the yellow lines on the on the ground that we asked on the basis that certainly visually impaired people look down but also yellow is a is an advancing colour so it's you know it's a good and the the putting signs on the on the hoarding at the right level for different people they were I have to say they were very good about that I it's I I actually can complement them on that at that time it's going back a few years now because you know waverly's been finished but yes they did and we certainly are being consulted about sorry I'm looking to who's saying about Queen Street aren't we we are indeed we've got colleagues who've been working on that from pretty much from close to the outset and are working to do exactly what we referred to earlier convener and now is attempting to solve problems on the outset rather than coming back highlighted as an area of good practice yes okay thank you I'm sorry just jump in to say conversely that I think network if we look at haymarket network rails consideration of cycle needs was not not good and and we've got a strong local cycle group in Edinburgh that could have provided a lot of useful input that again easy to do early stages and would have made a big difference but they were they're not receptive to that and so again it's a lot of public money being spent the government has has target site you know the cycling action plan for Scotland the 10 percent target and all that when we're spending millions of pounds of public money I just don't don't see how that's compatible with not getting as integrated as solution as possible okay thank you thank you thank you are there any further questions from members um can I ask each of the witnesses if they would just reflect for a moment on what the one single outcome they would want from this piece of work that the committee is undertaking to be and to share that with the committee perhaps mr samson you might want to kick us off regarding accessibility I think it's a I think I said at the beginning it's a more joined up approach not looking at rail in a rail silo or bus in a bus silo or taxi in a taxi silo it's a more joined up approach a more partnership approach that can look at connectivity integration and encourage modal shift as well at the same time okay mr Warren yeah along similar lines that when um in this sort of goes back to our active travel architect recommendation that when we're spending big amounts of public money or small amounts of public money and we're doing major redevelopments or reconfiguring stations or whatever it may be that you know the needs of pedestrians and cyclists are fully considered and integrated into the plans and the the overall integration with the transport infrastructure the public transport infrastructure is considered and not uh you know out with the remit of the project and consult with spokes when it comes to that in Edinburgh yes go bike in Glasgow you know yes but yeah I mean more more generally consult with local groups there's and it's not just cycling you know it's clear from max there's a lot of really um high quality knowledge really well considered um experts in local communities and um you know riding them off because they're not doing it five days a week for a high salary is just not acceptable these are people who really know what they're talking about and can make a big difference to the outcome okay thank you mr Pippling I I think I would I would echo this this um interconnectivity and point out that it's not just in major stations it's in stations all across Scotland I use Abymor relatively small station regularly so it's my local station um there's a taxi rank and there's buses but if you didn't know the station you wouldn't know where to go to get either and it's it's making sure that these things all link up it's not that they're difficult to find if you know where to look for them but it's as you walk out of this strange station in the beautiful Highlands and the Cairngol a National Park very good but where's the bus stop and where's the taxi rank you know and it's it's it's so that sort of thing is actually very simple and doesn't need a lot of money spent yes and bigger stations you know the sorry if you're looking in cities and whatever it probably is but right across Scotland look at the the stations and see where they connect if they do in fact of course to buses um the the it's it's just the same argument except on a smaller scale thank you very important and mr patwell you have the final word thank you very much I think you know I won't repeat what colleagues have already said I completely endorse that I think my um my biggest wish would be to see some of the information regarding how life can be made easier to be marketed more to the traveling public my colleague Ann has mentioned passenger assist I won't dwell on that that is a service level a service level feature I realize the committee remit has covered infrastructure but you know for example you have cases where to get from one side of the station to the other side of the station or a small highland station requires walking at considerable distance and over a bridge now if one doesn't know that there is a quicker way to access that and it's obviously putting putting traveling public at a considerable disadvantage and convenience very often information for disabled passengers seems to be isolated into either websites or within the station or if you know who to speak to then you'll get that information with respect convener I don't see what that should be the case if we can market information for tourists for cyclists for anybody else in you know widely in the public domain where anyone can see it anyone can access that I I honestly fail to see why the same cannot be cannot be said for information relating to disabled travelers and it goes back to what colleagues were saying if it works for one it works for all and I think that that's a major gap in the infrastructure that we have okay thank you very much and I thank all the witnesses for their evidence this morning and that concludes today's business and I now close this meeting of the committee can ask members just to hold