 the nonprofit show. We're really excited you're here for another episode and we have a very special guest today. Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd, is with us in studio to talk about something that we talk about and talk around all the time and that is grant writing. But we're going to approach us in a different way. We're going to actually talk about how one might go ahead, go about getting in to the grant writing business. So I can't wait to dig into this for so many reasons. But before we do, I want to make sure we do a little bit of housekeeping. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd here with me today, CEO of the Raven Group. We want to thank all of our presenting sponsors. Without them, we would not be here. Blue Morang, American Nonprofit Academy, fundraising academy, nonprofit nerd, your part-time controller, nonprofit atlas, nonprofit thought leader, and staffing boutique. These are the folks that join us day in and day out to help the nonprofit show come to you. And you can come to you on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, the meal. And as Jared always likes to say, but wait, there's more. We are now in a podcast format moving through all of our daily episodes and putting those files up. I just got a note yesterday that we've had 750 downloads in this short period of time. So really, really exciting. But what's even more exciting is Jared Ransom has allowed us to take her brain, open it up, crack it open, and have her tchink, tchink, tchink, tchink, dump out all those things that she has in there. That's right. Bang on your head. It's in there. It's really interesting conversation. And I can't think of a better person to talk about this with because you are that person that was a nonprofit professional that moved into having your own grant writing business. Is that correct? That's right. I started the Raven Group in 2009. I was a reduction in force during that economic crisis. I was a chief development officer working for a $21 million operating budget. I was asked to lay my team off. Six months later, I got the hatchet, had no idea what I was going to do next. But I knew that as a nonprofit leader, professional Julia, that I had a lot of skill sets in my toolbox. So I used that opportunity to become a professional grant writer. You know, I created my business, as I said, the Raven Group, and really started as a grant writer, been known as a grant writer here in our community. I no longer offer this specific service anymore. So I've shifted into teaching people during this great resignation or the reshuffle. Maybe you're thinking about a side hustle, or maybe you're looking at that long term where you want to take the tools from your resources, your toolbox and say, you know what, I do want to make my own schedule, and I do want to work from home all the time, or Barbados or Aruba or wherever you might want to go, you can take this business with you and you can scale it to the size that's right for you and your business. So I'm really excited to share this topic. You know, it's so interesting, Jared. We were talking offline and I said to you, you know, I can't imagine having a conversation with a CEO or CFO or board chair that doesn't always circle back to grants. And a lot of times a conversation goes like this. Yeah, Julia, we've got such a great program. If we could just get somebody doing grants for us, we'd be good to go. Like A, grants are going to solve everything, and B, we just need to find somebody. And a lot of times there's a sense that it's just somebody to do the work. It's not a professional. Like I can find, you know, my retired mom or somebody on the board who has some extra time. And I'm always like, oh, this is just not, this is bigger than that. You know, so when I presented this in person, I would always have, you know, you talk about your uncle's neighbors, cousins, husbands, whatever, you know. And so I always put up a photo of a monkey because it's like, even a monkey can do this. Like, no, we can all read and write. Most of us can read and write, but there is a science and there is an art to being a successful professional grant writer. I love it. I love that you say that. So first and foremost, I've got to ask the question, can you make money being a grant writer? And I'm saying, like somebody who's working from home or working in a co-working environment, can you do this? Capital YES exclamation point. Without a doubt, I've done it. I said, you know, I started my business 2009. I scaled to a place where I actually had multiple consultants or contractors working underneath me, was making six figures in my business, was really, you know, grateful to have the support of these individuals, mostly women, actually all women. And then they were able to go up on their own. So you get to set your prices. I do actually recommend that you do competitive, you know, cost, not a low ball. I will say when I started, it was about $40 an hour. When I got really involved with other professional grant writers, I realized that not only was I doing myself a disservice, I was doing the role, the career, a disservice by undercutting my peers to a place that was just unprofessional. So I learned that along the way, right? You really do want to be in that competitive range. And it depends on your community. But I will definitely say $40 is way too little. And I learned that quickly by really networking within my peers, having that rapport and that respect to learn, I'm not doing myself justice, but moreover, I'm not doing the sector justice by low balling at such a such a rate. So Capital YES exclamation point, you can absolutely make money as a grant writer. And again, this conversation is specific to non profit grant writing. Okay, sure. So then let's dig down a little bit deeper. And that is, you know, the question like, so we figured out you can get, you can get a good wage, you can create a business. How are you getting paid? And I, I'm not just saying, Oh, my credit card to check, I'm saying, do you take a commission? Do you get paid up front? Do you get paid a percentage of, you know, completion? Or do you get paid throughout the piece of work? You mentioned an hourly rate. I mean, wow, there's a lot to think about. And if you could kind of help guide us on that, there's a lot to think about. And I think it also depends on you as the professional what works for you, your budget, your finances. And I'm teaching all of this in my nonprofit nerd school. So really taking this whole 20 years of, of experience, you know, packaging into a program and a course to teach you how to do all of this for what's right for you truly. So I did start honestly, as hourly, I then moved to project base, you know, I will do a grant one grant for X amount of dollars, I will do three grants for X amount of dollars. And then I moved into a retainer. So I was working monthly with specific clients. And I would set up to say I will produce X amount of written submitted grants, X amount of like reporting compliance issues. So the grant management piece. Wow. Okay. Prospecting. So I was also prospecting for them. So it was really more than a grant writer. It was really that grant manager for them. And there's multiple ways hourly project retainer. And I prefer the retainer. But you know, if you're not good at tracking your hours, and you might be giving one client a whole heap more than what you intended to, you might want to start off honestly doing the hourly. Now, Julia, you mentioned commission, right? We talk about this all the time. AFP, we refer to them, the Association of Fundraising Professionals, anytime. And it happens a lot. Someone asked me, how can I pay a grant writer? Surely I can pay commission, right? Because what if they don't get the grant? Grants are very competitive. And there's a 30% national award rate. So there's, you know, that's a big number right there. Relationships matter. So you really do want to make sure that you're doing the best for the organization. That's why prospecting these opportunities really need some attention. But never commission, never bonus, never anything based off of the ask amount. And again, I always reference the Association of Fundraising Professionals because I subscribe to those, you know, ethics and just best practices for professional fundraisers. So I'm going to back up and you, I've got to ask you this question. You, I've heard you say this 30% award rate. I've got to ask you, how many clients that you've worked with or nonprofits have any idea about that number? Very little. I will say when I stopped offering the service, I was at 60%. And so that exceeded the national average, it doubled the national average. Probably you're thinking, well, how did you do this? Right? There's a lot of strategy behind it. I have blogs and other articles about this, but it really comes down to that return on relationship. It comes down to prospecting the right proposals and the right applications. Two, is this the right time? Are we the right fit? Right. And so really, it doesn't mean you're doing the shotgun approach and you're applying to any and all opportunities because that's actually going to take your average down. So it might mean that you're applying to less, but you're asking for more. So in terms of that, this makes me think of something else. It seems like you're starting your business and you're trying to take on clients and build those relationships with the nonprofits before you ever even go out to the funders. And it seems like there must be a lot of prep work. Like for example, my question kind of goes towards that first grant where you're trying to get all of these data points and narratives that you're going to then apply to other grants. So is there something where as a grant writer, you're going to structure up something in the beginning to get somebody ready or does that... Or so smart. Yes. So I, again, this nonprofit nerd school, I've designed all of these resources that you need, but this grant checklist is what you're referring to. And it's part of the onboarding that I teach, but it really is, here's all the documents and information that I will need, case for support, budget, all of the different program narratives, who are the key staff members, your IRS documentation, your audited financials. Like there's a punch list, right? And often used, every time you apply, most grants are done online now from a portal. So I have a little folder that I would have for each of my clients. I would have all of their attachments in this folder. So you just draw upon that, but you ask for these key information pieces, board roster, that's another one. You ask for these key information pieces once you have a signed contract. And then you pull all of these together, it will take you some time to ramp up. And before you actually hit that submit button, but you're getting all of this preparation as you just acknowledge, you know, done ahead of time. And then you're really delivering on those proposals, behalf of your client. So it kind of seems like your first grant, your first client or not your first client, but a new client, that first grant is probably going to take you so much more time, energy, and focus than ensuing grants, right? Because you're gathering all that stuff up. I would say 30 to 45 days that that is stretch, you know, but it really depends on how well is the organization organized and able to get this to you. So really looking at that maturity of an organization, do they have this readily available? Now it might be tricky at the end of a fiscal year when you're looking for those financials in the 990, but always go back to the previous year, always get, you know, that information and you can catch up from there. So I would say 30 to 45 days, but you can absolutely fast track that. You can start looking at the grant proposals prospecting. That's one of the first things to do as a grant writer. If you're offering the prospecting as well, I highly recommend it. Such an interesting thing because all of these things that I'm hearing you say, it seems like you as somebody who might want to start your own grant writing business, you need to know, but more importantly, your prospective clients or existing clients need to know. Do you think it's fair to say that there's a disconnect between what goes on behind this? And and do you find that nonprofits that are going to hire or contract with a grant writer even can fully understand what's going on? At a certain level, they do start up organizations. This might be so brand new to them, Julia, that they're just not really understanding some of the other questions that I ask and you often need to know as that grant writer is who are the top funders? Who are the top donors in your organization? I've had clients before say, that's very private. You know, I don't know if we should share that with you. Again, I go back, you know, donor bill of rights, code of ethics with the Association of Fundraising Professionals. You know, we do not work magic as grant writers. We are here as your partner as part of your team. And it is it is just is so important that we work together and that that data exchange is given. So I'm fascinated by this because again, I keep going back to all the conversations I have. And I will continue to have these conversations about that our our friend with if only we had a grant writer, you know, we need to hire one or we need to contract one or we need to train up somebody that's already doing a whole bunch of other stuff. I'm I'm wondering how you as as a person would go out and actually start attracting these clients, because it seems to me, Jared, that this is a huge opportunity for anybody who wanted to work from home or maybe control their own business. I mean, huge need for the service, huge opportunity across the nation. I've only worked within the US. I've not done grants outside of the US. It's a little different with NGOs. So I really stick to the to the nonprofits registered within the United States. Huge opportunity when I when I ended the service line, Julia, almost daily, I was receiving requests to take on a new client, of course, right, as soon as I decide to stop something, that's when the floodgates open up. Now I'm still receiving about a request a month. The words gotten out that I don't do it any longer, but I still do refer out to individuals. So there is such a great demand and such a great need grants should be, and this is the another statistic that you know, and I've said before, I know, should only make up no more than 30% of your nonprofits operating budget. So this means 30% of every nonprofit should be made up of grants, awards, and dollars revenue, right? So that is just a piece of every nonprofits diversified revenue model. If it's not, it should be. Sometimes they're much more dependent and it could be 50%, 60%. That's very risky. It could be 15%, which is okay, but you can still kind of move up to that 30%. So again, every nonprofit really needs to be the recipient of grants. So what how many are registered in the US, Julia? 1.8 million. We got it. So that need is high. It's out there. I also believe you can do it from anywhere. I've had clients that say, we really want someone on staff or we need someone sitting here in our office. Well, guess what? Thank you, COVID-19. That has definitely changed the way that we do business. I can absolutely write grants for someone in any part of the country, you know, as long as I have my grant checklist, I have their information. We have, you know, ongoing meetings. So this is very doable. You do not have to be in the office, sit in a cubicle. You don't even have to be in the same country. I mentioned earlier, if you and your family, you want to work remote, you want to travel, you want to, you know, go to Aruba and take your laptop with you. Have fun, do it. That's exactly why this business model is so perfect for the individual looking for a change. And I know there's, you know, we talked a lot about the resignation, the reshuffle. So many people really, you know, prioritizing what is important to them. How do they want to spend their time? So if this is of interest, I say, really think about it. So let me ask you a little bit more about that, because one of the things that you talk about, and you have spoken about this from the get-go is that return on relationship. And a lot of times we think, oh, you know, this, the grant writer can just be somebody sitting in a cubicle writing away, filling out the forms, engaging in the portals, where they give you somebody that's more of a strategic partner in talking about what needs to be going on and working with funders and all that. It just seems to me like they're two levels. And is that a good observation or is that off? I would say there's two levels. There's definitely the churn and burn, the person that will write the grants and really no more, no less. Maybe they don't do reporting. Maybe they don't help with compliance. Maybe they don't prospect. For me, what I love, and again, I started doing grant writing when I had already really developed my relationships in the community. So I brought a tremendous value to my clients because I also brought those natural relationships that I had been working and establishing across my own professional career. But what I advise anyone to do is if you don't have these relationships, you work with the organization that you're representing to build these relationships. That also helps that 30% of award rate increase. Again, relationships, relationships, relationships. So, you know, it really is about creating those conversations for opportunity. And, you know, we've had, we've had some really large foundations in our nation come on, Julia, here to the non-profit show. Every single one of them says, pick up the phone and call me. That's right, they do. They're always, it always amazes me that they're almost like begging people to call them. They're not scary people. I think they've been like, you know, created as this big, hairy monster that, oh my gosh, we cannot call them. Help, you know, they want you to call them. They want to develop these relationships. They really do, because their purpose is to give the money out. So let me ask you this then. And again, another drill down, you're attracting clients and you're building up your portfolio of the folks that you can serve. And this is kind of like a two-parter. If you're just writing grants, working with nonprofits, what's a logical, manageable number of clients that you could, that you could have with one person? That's a loaded question. I know, it's hard. It really depends. How much do you want to work? What else is on your plate? I was just talking to someone yesterday, a woman who's looking at kind of, you know, her retirement age, and she said, I don't have to work a lot, but, you know, I still want to bring in some income. So she's probably looking at two clients, I would say. There was times that I personally had five, right? That's a heavy load. That's a very, personally, that was a heavy load. You know, within my consulting business, when I had my subcontractors with me, we probably had about 30 and 35, but at different levels, again, like we might not have been writing for all, all of them, but we could have been prospecting or we could have been reporting, like just different levels of engagement. So it really depends on how much do you want to put on your plate? Right. I started my business in 2009, really committed as a single mom, being the most involved parent possible. So flexibility was important to me, freedom was important to me, travel important to me. I wanted to pick my son up from school. I wanted to drop him off. I wanted to pick him up if he was sick, and I wanted to go on field trips with him. So it really depends on how you want to manage your time as to how many clients you probably want to take on. Let me ask you one last question. And this time has just like flown by. You mentioned this the top of that the show. And this is such an important part about grant management and reporting out and compliance. How many grant writers do you think actually become a part of that process in that discussion? When I look at the landscape, it seems like that is we are falling short on that, that we are not as a sector really working that line of service. If you will customer service to our grantors. Yeah, and if we're not, we are falling short because that is our due diligence. We have the right responsibility and contractual obligation truly to stay in compliance. Again, I do know of grant writers that really just do that turn and burn and that's okay. That's what they do. But I do think that it's their responsibility to make sure that the contact of the organization then manages the rest of the grant right for me. I like to track all of that because then I could say, guess what, I've taken my award rate for my clients from 30 to 60%. We increased our ask amount by, you know, 50%. Therefore, we're not writing 12 grants at $5,000. We're writing five at $25,000 and above. So again, really looking at those metrics. I definitely did it as a business owner and so those analytics were really important to me. And again, you know, having that strategic partnership with my clients was really important. So it's important to stay in compliance. It's definitely important to have that grant management and reporting. But whether it's you as the grant writer or the agency, you know, itself that that contact there, either way, it has to get done. Okay, one last question. What is the profile like the social profile of somebody who's going to take this risk? You know, it's interesting because you're such an extrovert and not just on camera. I mean, I was with you yesterday for a very infrequent IRL, which you give me so much crap about in real life for those of you that are like, what does IRL mean? Yes. I'm telling you, I get so much greed for that. But we very for, you know, and I've said this before, we very rarely are together physically, IRL, and you are such an extrovert. How do you manage to have that personality trait and be somebody that's sitting quietly writing? I mean, is that a conflict? Does that work? Can you be both? What kind of person should be looking? Yeah, it really depends on the person. You know, it's great for introverts as well, kind of that social profile, because you are in front of your computer, you're often researching, citing materials. You know, my undergrad is mass communication. So I really love the writing concept of it. I really love pulling together that narrative. As an extrovert, though, I found my ways to connect with my clients either in person over Zoom. I was doing Zoom before the pandemic. So, you know, really looking at that as part of my business model, being involved in board meetings so that you can listen and hear, and then also networking with peers. That was a huge opportunity for me. Like I said earlier in this episode, you know, I was charging way too less. And I thought I was only doing that for myself. But I realized the damage I was doing for my peers. And so having that network community was really important to me. And it was my outlet, you know, for socialization, but also to learn and to develop. Plus, it's a great way to do referrals, because, you know, if you set your niche on a market, and you get a prospect in a market that doesn't align with yours, now you have someone to pass it off to you, or someone's plural. And I did that all the time. Well, I think this is just a really cool thing that you've taken this amount of knowledge. Talk to us a little bit about how you have structured this for somebody who's watching who might be like, wow, this could be something for me. I can see a fit. How do you start this with the Nonprofit Nerd School? We're on how to start. Thank you, Julia. So, nonprofitnerdschool.com. If you want to share that slide, and people can take a look at that website, there's three different ways you can work with me on starting, building, scaling, and profiting from your non-profit grant writing business. So, online, in-person, small group, in-person, one-on-one, those two will absolutely fast track you to success. It's limited, but it is by far the highest touch experience of those private, they're semi-private, actually five individuals per course. And then one-on-one is another option or online. So, I'm really excited about this. Again, I started my business in 2009. I'm now a teenager, 13 years of doing this. And to empower other people, particularly women, that are looking to get back into the workforce, or you're looking at retirement, maybe you're going through a divorce. There's so many changes, but I'm here to help you and walk you through it, to teach you the things that I did wrong, so you don't have to play in that space. I love it. Well, nonprofitnerdschool.com. Check her out. I mean, for those of you that are with us day in and day out, Jared has just this amazing mind and is such a nationally recognized leader in our sector. So, I can't imagine anybody more fabulous to learn from. And just hearing you talk makes me want to do this. I mean, come on in, sister. I'd love to have you. Can you imagine? I have enough on my plate, but I know the value of it, and I just see it. I see it as such an incredibly positive thing. So, again, thank you, Jared, our ransom nonprofit nerd joining me, Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. For another episode of the Nonprofit Show, we want to make sure to express our gratitude for all of our sponsors who are with us day in and day out. Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit nerd, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Atlas, Nonprofit Thought Leader, and Staffing Boutique. Hey, Jared, you've really done a great service yet again for our sector. Super, super exciting project that you're working on. Thank you for sharing it with us. Thanks for giving me the opportunity. Thanks for all of you joining us here, another episode of the Nonprofit Show. So very grateful. We'll be back here tomorrow, so make sure you tune in live or recording. Again, for all of you watching, listening, please stay well so you can do well. We'll see you here tomorrow. Thank you.