 Come back, but if you're just joining us for the very first time, this is why in the morning, in particular on Y254 channel, Kareb Usani, you can always interact with us on our social media handles, and that is at Y254 on Facebook, Y254 channel on Twitter. Did you know we also on YouTube? Huh? Fun fact, simply Y254 channel on YouTube, in case you ever missed an interview or you just kind of want to see us again and again. My name is Valentine or at Colour Me Val, but if you're not took us to Y254, I'll know what to do with it. I will know what to do. Ah, yeah. Team Minus, how many hours still? Sabah sabah. I don't know. I'm just trying to say the dates. I don't know what you're thinking about. Just in the seventh day of the seventh month. Anyway, this is where we have a very interesting conversation with a very interesting person. It's techy, but I'd like to think it's a little bit of both worlds, the best of both worlds, rather, where tech meets entertainment. I don't even think you're ready yet. Hashtag is Thursday Vibes. Tell us where you're watching from. Tell us what you want to hear. Do you have a question? Hi. What's your question? Hi. Hi. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Please introduce yourself to the people. Hi everyone. My name is Mark Kiddinji. I am a software developer, specifically a mobile Android software developer. So I make apps, been doing it for the past two and a half years, currently a freelancer. So I do them, you can say I do them from home, on my own time, on my own work basis. So I do projects for clients and I also do my own projects. So in simple put, my name is Mark and I make apps. Yes. That is not very simple. That sounds complicated. Tell us Mark about your apps, what kind of apps do you make? Applications, I can do many applications. So far the kind of apps of me have been entertainment and I've also worked on utility apps. So I've made apps that can enable you to stream content and you can watch TV and the local TV stations. You can tune in wherever you are in the world. You can also listen to radio wherever you are in the world, any registration, your vernacular ones, your English ones, local ones. The utility apps I've worked on, I've worked on a book app, an app that can allow you to, they can allow users to write books and post them like a social media for books. Wow. Like a kindle. Yeah, just like kindle, but only for Kenyan, it's Kenyan. So users can write books and share them and so other users will read their books and they can comment, they can do all that, similarly just like how you post a photo on Instagram. Yeah, that's how it works. I have concerns with how technology is advancing in this day and age. I fear for our privacy. Your privacy. Yes, a little bit. Certainly for someone like me who has, for example, an app like Instagram on my phone. A few days ago we spoke to another developer, not really application, but his was a bit complicated. It's led me to understand that I agree, checkbox is heavier than, we take it a little bit. So does it infringe on anything? Do you take my information, once I download your app, do you store it somewhere, are you going to use it against me? Well, that's a good question, by the way. I personally don't prefer taking people's information. I respect privacy, but there are people who will take your information just because you downloaded their apps. An example is these are loading apps, some of them do tend to infringe on your information and the reason they do that is to sell, they can find you later. So there are reasons for taking your information here. There are reasons why they will take your information. There are those who take your information to sell it. So once you download the app, they can take some of your info and sell it to other companies and that's how they make money. But for me, I don't prefer the way of making income, so how I do it, I have other ways of making money through my applications. But it's a concern, so you should know the app you're downloading whether it takes information. There is on the Play Store, on the App Store, that information is there. So before you download, make sure what you're giving away and what you're getting. That the terms and conditions, why they got to be so long though? You should read them. You should read them. All of them? Yeah, because if you were to, let's say you were to make it legal and they bring up the terms and conditions, they're binding for you or for them so you could give something away and there's nothing you can do about it. Once it's gone, it's gone. Literally in my hands. Yeah, you can just give it away. Wow. Yeah. All right. You said Android apps. Yes, Android apps. Okay. Before we get specifically why Android, what's the difference between iOS and Android apps? Are they not just apps? Yes, they are just apps, but they are different. And what makes them different is the operating system that they run on. So Android apps run on an OS called, when I say OS, I mean operating system. They run on an OS called Android made by Google. And iOS apps run on an Apple OS and so you can't mix the two. I don't know if people understand that, but what I mean is just like how you can have Windows operating system and mark OS for those who understand. So because there are two different operating systems, they work, they both work differently. So if you're going to make apps, you have to make apps for each individual operating system. So when we have an app, okay, I don't know why I'm using Instagram a lot today, but if I have an app like Instagram, it works both for Android and iOS. You can have Instagram on Android and also on iOS, but the way they were made for each operating system is different. It's different. The involvement, the workstations, let me say the tools that were used, they look the same, the end result is the same, but they're very different in the background. Are they visible differences, for instance, if they, really? Yes, there are some visible differences. If you look at the way the Apple, the Instagram on Apple works, it's not the way it does on Android. Actually, let's say the one on Apple is way better. For example, if you were to do a voice recording on the Instagram, on the iOS, it sounds way better than that on the Android. They're tailored differently. So do you have an iPhone or an O-ringer? O-ringer, they have a reason to. Okay. And yeah. Tom Doctor also my O-ringer. O-ringer, too. Hashtag is Thursday 5th. All right. Tell me, you said you have... Okay, wait. Tell me something about your application, the one that streams radio or TV. Does that infringe on anybody's rights? Ken, let's say I have a radio station called Valentin and you somehow get to stream it on your application. Would you be offending me in any way or taking away my profit somehow? O-ringer, it depends on how you look at it. It depends on how you look at it. So the apps have made that they allow Kenyans to stream TV and radio from wherever they are in the world, from their mobile phones. So it's about convenience. So it's a platform they can do that from. So in terms of infringement, it depends on how you look at it. I've had people approach me and tell me, hey, I like your platform. I have a radio station and I would like you to help me stream it and get it out there. So those who have approached me and told me, I like what you're doing and the fact that you put my radio station out there. Oh. Yeah. So those who tell me, hey, so I notice you put my radio station out there. So here's my updated link. Those who tell me to update the links within the app. So those two whom it's a benefit to. So it's a benefit to, let me say, it's a benefit to the user and to the one who's broadcasting. Now there's the one who would consider it as infringement. And if that happens, I always have my information there and I'll be glad to do. Take it down. Yeah. But I'm also working on those agreements at the moment. I'm working on them. So I also don't like the idea of infringing or stepping on people's tools like that. So I am working on that right now. It was my pilot. He's a nice guy. Yeah. Why do people need apps? Good question. People need apps for a lot of things. And the reason why I say they need for a lot of things is because the mobile phone we use today is very different from the first mobile phone I was made. The first mobile phone was just to make a phone call. And once you're done, that's it. But over time, it's become very advanced. It can do so much. It can do so much. Your phone today can be your doctor. It can take your blood pressure. It can take your heartbeat. It can do that. Your phone can be your bank account. Your phone can be your teacher. You can learn from there. Your phone can be a lot of things. It can be your recorder. Your microphone can be a lot of stuff. The need for apps is to create a way where we can use the hardware to bring out the capabilities in our phone. So for example, one good example is a PES app. I can put my money away safely without having to touch it. And I know it's safe. And it's all through my phone. So for example, if you're a business and you'd want to reach your clientele a bit more easier, being better communication, better service delivery, an application is a good way to do that. It's a good way to deliver that to them more efficiently. Okay. So we're not talking about one day where applications will become obsolete? I don't think so. They've been around for a long time. I don't think they'll become obsolete. Where do you imagine the advances will lead it to? Wow, the advances today are actually mind-blowing. I would say that in terms of software, software has really changed over the years. So we're talking about things like AI. It's become a bit common over the past one or two years. AI is, for example, it's letting artificial intelligence. So the applications have become very smart. So today I can open an app that can ask my app to do a presentation. I can tell you I'm doing a presentation for this and this and this. So give me an outline of a presentation. So it will develop a whole presentation for you. If you want videos, if you want photos, if you want example conversations. An app can do all of that for you. If you want to post maybe a YouTube video and you don't have content, it can generate content for you. It can tell you. You can see the advancements. It only keeps getting better and better. Is it a good thing? Is it going to already... Okay, let me start from here. His Excellency Rikadidasagwa just recently told us that there is no one who is a graduate. But I expected it to be. Is there danger in AI cutting our workforce almost in half? Yeah, there is. I would agree to that there is. But for some, not for all. For some, not for all. It's unavoidable. I don't think there's anything you can do about it. The best thing to do is to embrace it. To embrace the capabilities and work with it. There are those people who... For example, being a developer, someone can use AI to write an app without having to code. All they have to do is tell the AI, I want an app to do this. That means I lose my work. But then there are things that the AI can do. If they can do some, they can't do everything. Now, they need the gritties that need to be done that AI can get to. It's smart, but not as a human being. So, there's that worry. Yes, it's there. But not that much. If you were there, don't be too worried about it. Yeah. Is there danger in AI getting smarter than people? Although, I think it's... Okay, let me not say things. People watch a lot of movies, a lot of pressings. I don't know if that's the problem here. Because I don't imagine... Because I have to program you, right? So, you cannot be smarter than the person who's programming. But is there a danger in AI? Yeah, there is a danger in things like AI. The reason is they... Actually, there has been a situation where two AIs, I think it was by Facebook, two AI computers, they got so smart, they were having a conversation with each other. And as soon as the developers realized that the two computers are talking... Comprehensive conversations. Yeah, comprehensive conversations. And they were communicating. And one computer... When this one speaks, the other one understands and it responds back without having a human in between them. So, when they realized that, they had to shut them down immediately. So, there is that danger where they can get too smart. So, like you said, in the movies, they might get to a point where they believe humans are the source of the problems in this world. It's possible, it's possible. It's called a machine learning where computers get smarter and smarter every day by themselves without the need of a human being, necessarily. We've created monsters, haven't we? Yes and no. Why no? We've already discussed the yeses. Why no? Why no? Because there's a reason for that technology to make our lives easier, better. Our business is everything. So, there's a pro and there's a con at the same time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He just slapped us with the information and then tells it to you. It's going to be okay. Yeah, it's going to be good. Double-edged sword. Yeah. All right. Tell me about how these applications turn into what I believe is entrepreneurship, how they melt into businesses and how you make money off them. That's a good question. There's lots of ways that apps can generate money. So, for example, if I can start from someone like me, I make apps for myself. And when I make them, I intend to generate something. So, I can make an app that... And then once I make an app that I know is going to solve a problem. And in the process of solving the problem, I can generate some income. So, I make the app and then I can use something called in-app advertising where I put ads inside the app. And as people use the app... That's how I just be minding my own business when Candy Crush then boom and add. Yeah, and add. So, every time you watch that ad, the developer makes something. Yeah, maybe five shillings or ten shillings. So, if he has a million downloads, ten shillings times a million, you get that. So, it actually has a good money if you have the volume or the traffic. So, it's a good idea to venture in. So, the other way people can make money is in-app purchases. So, purchases. So, if you have an app where you're selling merchandise or it's a way for you... It's a link between you and your customers. It can make you more money for your business, for example. The EMPESA app improves their transactions for the company, right? Another way is, like I told you, people can sell you information and they make money off that. They also pay the apps that you buy. You can make something that people want to buy. You can buy your app. You can make an app and then sell it. And when I sell it, I pick some money. Which one is more... I want to say it's not really sustainable. But it sounds like if now you do the ads inside the app or, okay, aside from selling my private information, which is not cool, guys. It sounds like that lasts more. The money accumulates a little bit more than just making an app and selling it and getting a whole bunch of money all at once. What's better here? I think what's better is look at the long term. I think the long term is better. It depends, by the way. Because the apps that are sold, for example, if I make an app that can be used by the government, for example, maybe it comes out to be very beneficial to them. Apps are not cheap. So if I make a really good app, I can sell it from maybe... maybe I'd estimate a million or two million, a million upwards, an app. Just the one... You make two... You make two million, then one million is in your account. Yeah. So if I was to sell it, I would make around that much. But if I was looking at the long term, I think I would go the way for having generating income over time. So in-app advertising is a good way. So it depends on your taste. It depends on the people who would rather make them and sell them or the people who would rather generate income over time. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a special question. But do you remember you're still watching Why in the Morning, at WhiteFive on Facebook, WhiteFive on channel, on Twitter, hashtag of the day, is there's day vibes? Now, see, finance bill has been something we've been talking about for some time now. And we continue to talk about it. And where is the catch-22 in the apps? Where do you, you know, kind of bleed from the sides because of taxes or... Because of taxes? Yeah. There was that digital, there was the introduction of that digital tax. So I do, if you're asking me whether I pay my taxes, I do pay my taxes. No, no, I'm trusting that you're a good guy. Yeah, I'm a good guy. So I do pay my taxes. So for... if I did it, they would know, by the way. They would know. But whatever I actually make, I usually is already taxed from the other end. But I also have to pay my income tax. So for example, those in-app advertisements, the ones that paid for that advertisement, the money was already taxed by Google. The money also make has to be taxed. So if you're asking if you're going to have to pay your taxes, you're going to have to pay your taxes. Yes. Is there any other way the government, you know, comes into play here? Do you have things like copyright worries or patent issues? Yeah, it depends on the platform. It depends on the content. I would call it fair use. I think Google has a... They know. They would know if you're infringing on other people's copyrights. They have a way of knowing that. And I did do my research and I realized there have been this kind of applications for a long time. And they've been doing more good than harm, right? So if you say you have those worries, they're usually there. But like I said, if anyone feels that I'm infringing, in any way, they can always reach me out. Yeah, yeah. You take it down immediately. Yeah, sure. I like how honest you are, right? Let's take a break from that a bit. You said you're also an entrepreneur or you were an entrepreneur. Tell me about that. I did do a bit of entrepreneurship. There was a time I was making... Very far from technology, by the way, I was doing... I was making... I don't know if you've heard of charcoal briquettes. Yeah. I was making charcoal briquettes from charcoal waste. And the reason I was doing that was because I wanted to... I came up with a way that I could make affordable cooking solutions that was more affordable than normal charcoal. Normal cooking charcoal. So at that time I think charcoal was going for 2,000. And one bag of the briquettes I made was going for 1,000. So it could cast off by half. Wow. Yeah, cooking costs down by half. So it's a... How are you not in the government? Since mom made it in Kuwait. Yeah, I'd appreciate that. But it's... So I used to make them for the area where I used to stay. So as a venture I provided employment to those I was working with. Provided good cooking solutions. People really loved that charcoal. And I would say it was my first baby. I really... I'm still doing it on and off. But I really... I had so many big visions for it. My biggest goal was to get to a place where I use water hyacinth from the Lake Victoria. I can use that. Wow. Yeah, I can use that to make... process it and make charcoal. So cutting down trees. Yeah. Okay, why I'm very startled is there's a time it was the news that the hyacinth was actually becoming a nuisance. And look at you, you found a way to... Everyone won. So how did you transition from that to software? Right, so... I did that as soon as I left the campus. It was just an idea I had. But I got to a point where I realized hey, I need to do what I went to school for. Perhaps. Yeah, so I quickly started getting to tech. I remember I started with a laptop business. So I still sell them. I started selling laptops and accessories online. So I still sell them. I used to sell them. And then I also published my first application on Google, on Play Store. So that's... I know there are two very different worlds. But it's better to do something than not do it. Yeah. Wow. It doesn't work. Wow. Alright. Okay, I have another question. And first of all, shout out to Stephanie Ayata. She is our tech guru. Yes, this is... Strong Ya Badaya. Is there a possibility that tech is largely a man's world? For example, if you sell laptops, yes. Yeah. The question that's... Well, not really a guy. But let's just assume this is a bit gender-based. If the male gender comes and buys a laptop for you, they'll probably ask you for specs, RAM, whatnot. But perhaps... Maybe I'm getting this off memes. Perhaps. So the female gender will come and ask you, oh, I want a pink one. I want a pink laptop. Is that how it is? Or are they just making it out to be something that it's not? Yeah, it's kind of true. Really? I would say it's kind... Well, ladies nowadays have upped their game. We're talking about gender. Women have become... They've gone into technology way more than I even thought they would. They're really smart when they're very... There are very many women doing very big things in the tech world. I like how smart you are. Stay in that first, okay? Continue. But still it's... You can also appreciate where they came from. So the ladies would come, approach you and tell you, I just want a nice laptop that does this and this and this. So if I was to get techie and ask her, do you want one that has this kind of room or one that has this kind of space and storage that has this kind of graphics card, that's too much you're telling me. I just want something I can do this and this and this, you know. Yeah, so I would say there's a point where it was a man's world, but it's becoming a world for both now. Okay. I like that. I told you it's our time, guys. It's our time, guys. Hashtag is Thursday vibes. What do you love more? Tech or entrepreneurship? Do you even have to choose? I never thought of that, by the way. I think I love tech more. Well, I love tech more. I didn't even know I would be doing tech today. I had started off on a very different career path. I had started off on a medical field. You wanted to be a doctor? I wanted to do nursing. Whoa! You don't hear that often, okay? I know, very funny. So just before I reported to school because I had applied for a degree, just before I reported someone changed my mind about doing tech. And they told me, hey, by the way, you know, talk for me, I'm Bambi. He's not Bambi, you know. So they told me that I applied for a degree in computer science at the JQAT and in mathematics in computer science. And I can say it was love at first code. You can say love at first sight. It was love at first code. I fell in love with tech. I fell in love with chipsets. I fell in love with how the phone works, how the computer works. But I think about it a lot. I can say I love tech more than entrepreneurship. You are insanely smart. Like, you applied to be a nurse in Goten. Yeah, I did. And then you applied. You applied something. In Goten. You're spoiled for choice. You're that smart. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Yeah, impressive. I appreciate it. Thank you. So how do you advise someone to take the tech path? Seeing as how technology literally is about to take over. Do you think we should get on the bandwagon early? Yeah. I don't think you can ever go wrong with tech. Because the field is very wide. It's very broad. And there's actually a need for more tech. As tech advances, there's a need for more tech people. In a few years, there could be a shortage. In fact, there are people who are going out of the way to train tech people for free or give that tech training. There's a lot of tech training in schools nowadays. Because they realize that in the near future, there would be a need for those kind of people, tech people. Technology is not going anywhere anytime soon. There are many ways of developing something good for yourself through tech. I always tell people, you can't go wrong with tech. It's very wide. But there's so much you can do. Outside even employment check. There's so much you can do for yourself. So I tend to say you can never go wrong with tech. Outside employment. That means I can have a 9-5 quote-unquote. I can have a career and I can do tech. Yeah. It's an option. When I say outside employment, I mean you don't have to be employed. Ah. Yeah. You can employ yourself. Which is definitely what we should be thinking about right now. Seeing as how we've been told by His Excellency. We should listen. All right, Mark. Thank you for coming. Do you have any last remarks or do you want to emphasize something before you leave? Am I looking at the camera or am I just looking at you? Wherever is fine. All right. Maybe I can ask people to download my applications. Yes, do that. On Play Store. So if you go on Play Store, you can... On App Store. Google Play Store. You can search Smooth Radio. There's Smooth Radio. It has a red icon and an S. You can download that. You can also... Within the app, you can find... You can also search for TV Kenya. So with those applications, you can stream radio and you can watch TV. Also, if there's anyone who would like to have me develop apps for them, I don't know if I should give them my contact or... Sure. If you're comfortable. You can reach me out on 0729, 097, 750. All right. Thank you so very much, Mark, for coming. Thanks so much. You have definitely taught me something. I hope you've learned something as well. Well, it's been a very interesting conversation. Guys, you're still watching. By the morning at WhiteFive on Facebook, WhiteFive channel on Twitter, White254 on the scroll channel on the gram hashtag of the day. Remains to be Thursday vibes. Stay with us.