 Good evening. Welcome to Montpelier Civic Forum. My name is Richard Scheer and we're going through the state senate, state house elections, and we're going to do the two bonds, parking and sewer, and we're also going to do the two issues on people voting who have green cards, and we're also going to do plastic bags and elimination. So we're going to do a broad sweep of issues. We hope that you guys will stay with us for all of the shows. Tonight is Warren Kitzmiller, who is our current state house representative. What district, Warren? I represent Montpelier, which is Washington 4 district, but I'm only one of two. You know, I have a district mate, Mary Hooper. She and I share the job. Do you? Yeah. Well, we're the perfect size for a two-member district. How long have you worked alongside Mary Hooper? Oh gosh, probably a dozen years or so. I've been there longer than Mary, but not by that long. I don't remember exactly when she came in, but we've been district mates for, I would guess it's ten or twelve years. I hate to ask this. Why would a person want to stay in that job for ten or twelve years? I mean, you're certainly not in it for the money. That's true. The only thing I can tell you is I love this job. This is the best job I have ever had. Better than owning a bicycle store? Oh yeah. Onion River Sports was wonderful. It was 98% pure pleasure and 2% sheer terror. It just seems that no matter how well a small independent retail business is going, we can have a good summer, a good winter, a good summer, a good winter, and then it rains all summer and doesn't snow the next winter, and you've got this mountain of bills and you're thinking they're going to attach my house. I'm going to have to sell off my first born child. It can be terrifying at times. But in the legislative job, I really only have to worry about re-election every two years. But you're also worrying about the recessionary budget. You've gone through a couple, you went through the big recession. Oh yeah. What was that like as a state legislature, as a legislator in a state legislature to have gone through that kind of steep revenue drop very quickly? Well I can tell you that I am very grateful that I am not on one of the money committees, be it the Appropriations Committee that has to decide how we spend our money or the Ways and Means Committee that has to decide how we raise our money. I'm a compassionate liberal guy and if I were on the Appropriations Committee it would break my heart to have to say no. And we never ever have enough money to do all the things that we would really like to be able to do. In a recession it's almost easier. It's not easy, but people understand that there's no money and that they're not going to be able to get everything they would like to get. So in that attitude it's a little bit easier to say no when you don't have any money than to say no when you actually do have some money. At the end of the legislative session we're going to talk about this when there was 36 million some odd dollars in play and the discussion was where that money goes. And part of that discussion dealt with the teachers retirement fund. What is the state of the Vermont budget underneath the surface when you include indebtedness such as the teachers retirement fund? Well I can honestly say that Vermont is in a much better and much stronger position than nearly all the other states out there. As much as we struggle we are a state that tries very very hard to do the right thing by those who are least able to do for themselves. We almost beggar ourselves in an effort to fund as many social programs as we can and we prop people up as much as we can. I'm very proud of that. Beggar ourselves, that's from Calvin Coolidge's Brave Little States. Brave Little States, yeah. No, we do. I've always joked that New Hampshire is a great state to be rich and healthy but a lousy state to be sick and poor. Vermont is a much better state. If you're sick and poor we try our best to take care of people and many people will say that we try too hard and we need to cut these programs and cut taxes. I don't want to do that. I want to take care of people to the highest degree that we can but I'm glad I'm not the guy making those decisions. I vote on the budget after all that work has been done. I vote yes or no on the big package. But what is what are the long-term indebtedness issues like the teachers fund that came up at the very end of the legislature? It's a lot bigger than 36 million that indebtedness. Oh yes, oh yes. We have several of these big programs and I won't think of them quickly on the fly but the teachers retirement fund is a good example. We've been paying into it as much as we can but we have robbed from it at times in the past. Not by me but it's happened so we owe money back into that fund. But our bond ratings are high and secure. Those people who do that down in New York and D.C. understand that Montpelier pays its bills. Montpelier means to stay. Yeah, I'm thinking of the big house. They always talk about those folks in Montpelier. Get them out of there. I'm part of those folks in Montpelier. That's right. Where were we? We were talking about being able to pay our bills and we do. We pay our bills pretty honestly. At least compared to other states that are so underwater it's ridiculous. Well can I take a few other long-term challenges and ask from your seat in the legislature what they look like. Sure. There was a cleanup that was a leg cleanup that was signed into law with no funding for it. Yes. Infrastructure. What is the state prepared to meet its long-term challenges? I think so, yes. Why? What's your thought on that? Because I trust us. I have faith in our willingness to do the right thing. Sometimes it's under duress I admit but we try very hard to do the right thing. And I don't see my fellow legislators allowing us to get in a position where we're in dire straits. I just don't think that'll happen. Although I don't really like passing these flowery big programs without funding them as the late cleanup was. Our treasurer. How would you have funded that? Well I would have listened to Beth Pierce. Our treasurer. Yes. Our state treasurer who by the way is an amazing person doing very good work. I'm so thankful we have her. But she has a program that I can't even begin to tell you the details that would cause some difficulty. She's talking about a 20 million dollar a year funding program. Something like that. And it's up to ways and means and the governor to decide where 20 million. To decide where to put them in. Yep. I worry about things like the Coat Drive that's coming up soon. Could you talk to us about it? The name of the Coat Drive. Is the Karen Kitzmiller Memorial Winter Coat Drive. Which means that Karen Kitzmiller is no longer with us. And the room in the library. Is named for her. That's your wife. That's my wife. Could you talk to us about Karen? Well she's an amazing person. I'll probably get choked up at some point so forgive me. But Karen came into politics in 1990 when the woman who headed the House Judiciary Committee got appointed to be a judge on the very first family court that she had just created. And there was she was a Democrat and it was right at the primary vote and she had to step down. And there was just this oh my gosh what are we going to do moment. And a lot of people thought that I'd be interested in running. At that point you were owning a bicycle store. I owned Onion River Sports here in Langdon. Yeah. But I really wasn't in a position to do that myself. But I said that evening at dinner I said to Karen why don't you run. You'd be really good at that job. Why would she be really good at it? Because she's compassionate. She's got a very good mind. She listens well. She always was a good listener. And she's just got a good heart and a good brain. I knew you know that's all you really need for that job. That's what you hope any person brings is a good heart and good brain. Well she looked at me and she said who in their right mind would want that job. Isn't that what I just said. But by the time we were going to bed she said what makes you think I could win. And I said if you run honey I guarantee you'll win. And by the next morning she was running. And so she ran this last minute campaign and she was only able to get her it was so late that we couldn't have a city-wide caucus of the Democratic Party and nominate somebody. Within the time frame the the law required for putting a name on the ballot. But Jim Douglas who was then Secretary of State said you're only going to miss this. That's former Governor of Vermont. But he was then Secretary of State. He said if if you put good honest effort into advertising this caucus meeting I will waive the deadline. Because the purpose of having these things is to allow people to run. Not to prevent people from running. So I give Governor Douglas great credit for having made that decision back in the day. Anyway Karen ran and she won handily. But in her very first campaign she said I want to show people who I am. I don't want to just put an ad in the paper with my smiling face saying I'm a nice person vote for me. So she started this what did she call it worthy causes campaign. She started a winter coat drive. Well so she started the winter coat drive in 1990 or actually that was the winter the fall of 1989 at that point. She started a paint collection a used paint collection and she started an essential housewares drive which nowadays that one still continues through local area churches. But it was the coat drive that really caught on and she said she was standing in front of city hall on election day and she'd people see people coming in wearing a coat that she knew had just been given away the week before and she said there's a vote. And so it was it was really a campaign tool when it started. But it filled a tremendous need in central Vermont and it continued because there's a lot of folks who are living hand to mouth. I thought we were talking about Karen's election and the coat drive to this day. This is like compared to the 90s. It is much bigger now. Now we run it in two places. I have a partner in Community National Bank and they collect the coats here in Montpelier and we give them away at City Hall which by the way is the giveaway is October 27th. From when to when? In Montpelier from nine to two. They collect coats at the Community National Bank on North Main Street in Berry and they run the drive there at the bank on Saturday the 27th. They're from nine to twelve when the bank has been closed. As we give a free plug to the the coat drive when can you drop off the coat in Montpelier? Right now I just picked up a whole bunch of coats at there. Where can we drop off the coat? Take them to Community National Bank in either Montpelier or Berry. They collect them and I'm picking up coats virtually every day. Sweaters as well or just coats? Sweaters are good. Hats, gloves and mittens. I had two people very nicely drop off. Two pretty nice men's wool sport jackets. Nice clothing but not really a winter coat. And sometimes we'll get thin little wind jackets or golf you know golf jackets. They don't keep it very warm. We need things that keep people warm outdoors in the winter and we also take blankets and comforters. We take hats, gloves and mittens. We take winter boots. Do you take volunteers? Oh yes I have a great many volunteers but I have a woman who organizes those for me and I don't have her phone number memorized right now but if people would like to volunteer to help on the coat drive they can always call me. Will you post that on front page form? If they let me do it for free. You can use my account. Yeah but my number is 2290878 so they can call me. One more time. 2290878. How did the second floor room on the library come about? Well the one where they hang we are. During the time that Karen was the state rep she held the job for 11 years. There was frankly an amount of unhappiness within the library. The librarian and staff were horribly underpaid. The board of directors was a self-perpetuating board of friends who appointed their own friends to the thing and like at every meeting the librarian had to sit outside the room while they were having their party inside. Then they would call the librarian in for 10 minutes to give her a report and then they throw her out again. And there was a movement in Montpelier that said we are investing a fair amount of civic money into the library every year and we never get to see the books and Karen says well that's about to change. And the library the board of the library said oh no we're a private foundation you can't see our books and Karen says if you want civic money we will see the books and further we'll have a seat at the table we'll have a director and she worked very very hard and she got it and the library changed forever and they are they have always been so grateful for what Karen did for the library that then there was a thing where they were they were looking to name some portions of the library for is that when the senator Leahy? Well I think it may predate the Leahy wing but Karen died in May of 2001 and her older brother Kim had dropped dead suddenly in January of 2001. My in-laws lost two of their three children in about a four-month period and that was devastating. One day my father-in-law came to me and he said do you know anybody at the library who's doing their development work or fundraising for them and I said I sure do and he said would you put me in touch with them and I said sure what are you thinking he says I would like to give the library a half a million dollars oh my goodness I said Norm a half a million dollars will you will you and Anne be okay he said oh yeah I think so I mean he had he had had a substantial career and he was still that there's a lot of money so I called who was it Josh Fitzhugh was their development director at the time and I called Josh and I said Josh my father-in-law would like to donate a half a million dollars to the library would you be willing to talk to him he swallowed hard for about 10 seconds and said I think I could do that and you know he usually to get a gift of that size you have to work but norm just wrote a check walked and handed it to him and said I must have been one heck of a ceremony the dedication well it wasn't large but it was very nice norm said all I want is a little brass plaque with the name of both of my children on it so which is where in that room when you go upstairs into the Karen Kitzmeler reading room and make a little U turn to the left as soon as you go in the door it's right there on the wall and then there is another plaque honoring Karen but they were looking to honor people by naming various parts of the library and they just looked at each other and said well I guess I know we know where we're naming the reading room or who we're naming it after so it became the Karen Kitzmeler reading room and I go in there several times a year just to sit and think about it and the 11 years what was her signature piece of legislation her signature piece of legislation absolutely was getting clinical cancer trials covered under standard insurance policies insurance companies until that point in time said we don't cover clinical trials that's experimental medicine we don't do it and Karen said how are you going to advance medical science if you don't have clinical trials that people can afford to be in clinical trials are no more expensive than standard medicine their results are equal if not sometimes better and what year would that have been that would have been about 1989 that that passed uh Karen at that point had breast cancer that she developed in around 1994 or 95 95 I guess and she and her oncologist at UVM were a very powerful one-two punch Karen Karen would be the face of the disease because she was on constant chemo for nearly five years nobody expected her to ever live that long and she'd be the the living face of clinical trials and her oncologist Dr Hyman must who is no longer there but great man would be the expert witness and when that passed Howard Dean said this bill belongs to Karen it would not have happened without Karen Kitzmiller what do you consider to be your signature bill over your career I don't believe that I have one at this point I had very much been hoping that the protection of Berlin pond could have evolved into being something like that the protection of Berlin pond did you see that going beyond Berlin pond did you see basic issues in the protection of Berlin pond that would have helped yes in other situations yes because there are 11 or 12 surface water ponds that are used as drinking water supply in various communities around the state some of those ponds about I think about five or six or maybe seven of them have pretty strong charter language that gives that could you explain what a charter city is so that people can understand not all what charter language is all about not all cities and towns in this state have charters the majority do we do in Montpelier we do in Montpelier it's a choice that communities can make they can they can make the decision to become a charter city I'm not sure they have the option of deciding to give up being a charter city I was just about to ask that once you've got it can you once but a charter city is a therefore a creation of the state and you know this the state could yank Montpelier's charter and we would cease to exist as a city they would never do that when did Montpelier make the decision I mean it must have been forever ago it was a long long time ago I don't know right I was very young at that time it was back in the 1700s exactly I wasn't going there I feel like but it's but it we've been a charter city so that when significant changes are made could you give me a couple of examples you sit on which committee I sit on the government operations committee which handles all charter changes but thinking of Berlin Pond in particular Montpelier had language in our charter that gave the city the right to control the use of Berlin Pond and we prohibited any use of Berlin Pond but at the same time the use of Berlin Pond meaning what a lot of viewers don't understand human body contact with the water are you talking canoes kayaks anything okay they weren't allowed to touch that water with a boat or with their body they weren't allowed to walk on the ice they weren't allowed to fish in it they weren't allowed to be there at all and that stuck in people's craw to some extent some people which people what was the issue what was the issue that stuck in their car fishing the good old boys wanted to go fishing that that's what and this reservoir is providing the water that people in Montpelier it is our sole and only source of water and we and people were concerned about pollution in that water yes rightly so what what do you see as mankind's intervention with bodies of water how are we doing in Lake Champlain how are we doing that we're going to get that later because that's an issue that your car dyslature addressed in the last yeah but mankind pollutes we can be a pretty dirty species of time you can walk around Berlin Pond and find broken fishing rods and fishing lures and trash we have pulled dirty diapers out of the water ever since but anyway Montpelier knew that the state was protecting the water the Department of Health had issued an order closing the pond in addition several different state departments with jurisdiction over this that we're speaking across currents yeah yeah but well that's digressing a little but within the Department of Natural Resources there were departments speaking across currents or you know the fish and wildlife boys were all about access to the ponds but the clean water and drinking water the science side of things were not but the political side was favoring the hooks and bullets boys I call because there were other similar situations across the state and that would have been a precedent I think so I don't really know why two different administrations both the shumlin administration and the scott administration have opposed closing the pond just uh you had what to do what was your role in this then I Montpelier voted well at one point in time and I don't remember when it was possibly 20 30 years ago Montpelier was cleaning up its charter because they do tend to get messy they grow like topsy over the years and we looked at the language protecting Berlin Pond and said that's sufficient the Board of Health has closed that pond so we took out the language that gave us the right to protect the pond big mistake in hindsight we didn't see that what year would that have been I don't know it was probably in the early 70s somewhere uh but then the regulation of surface water ponds was transferred from the Board of Health to the Department of Natural Resources now when that sort of a big change in regulations comes they usually attach what is called a savings clause which brings all the regulations issued by the Board of Health would have gone into the Department of Natural Resources I want to believe that it was an honest mistake but that didn't happen it says though all those things that the Department of Health the Board of Health had said over the century had disappeared they were moved they never were issued and through a court case that I won't belabor the point but Montpelier lost in the Supreme Court the Supreme Court looked at it and said oh my goodness Montpelier really lost that right to protect it everybody thought we had that right the Supreme Court was surprised to find it so the only remedy there is for us to attempt to reinsert it we'd had it for over a hundred years Berlin Pond had been closed for almost a hundred and you don't have sympathetic governors and if you don't have the political sympathy it's very hard I don't know why Governor Schumlin was in my view pandering to the fishing community but he was and I don't think they ever voted for him so I don't see it as a political win for him Governor Scott who's been sideways to this issue since he was in the legislature yeah but but he loves to kayak on Berlin Pond so I wasn't looking for sympathy from him in any case what about Lake Champlain cleanup the last legislature has a study a hundred and twenty thousand dollar study yeah they passed a bill and I don't remember what the bill number was yeah that basically said we want clean lakes but we're not we don't have a funding mechanism right what was behind that and what was your feeling on that well you know this is hundreds of years of of pollution with all kinds of invasive species spiny water fleas zebra mussels and and more and there are parts of that lake that are really badly polluted and it's taken a couple hundred years to get into that mess and the the modest estimates say it's going to take anywhere from sixty five to eighty million dollars to do any kind of a half-hearted effort period of time well the longer you spread that out the worst the job will be because the lake will continue to be polluted and get even more polluted it would be good if you could spend that sixth year eighty next year you might have a snowball's chance of doing something but the chance of actually restoring that lake to pristine condition and this is my opinion with no science behind it is a futile effort I don't see much opportunity to do that do you see it is worth trying to do an intervention yes especially in the most polluted areas St. Albans Bay is really bad we have our blue-green algae that surfaces almost every year especially in certain portions of the lake if we could reduce the runoff both agricultural runoff and just other human development runoff we've got so many huge big paved parking lots that they go directly into lake it's it's worth the effort but what do you see us the future of Vermont agriculture oh I think the future of Vermont agriculture is is strong it will change obviously we were a dairy state and still are and still are to a large extent but the the small family farms are disappearing rapidly I don't know how many hundred farms will use this lose this year it's going to bigger and bigger and really commercial agriculture size things we're producing more milk than ever at what kind of price at actually reasonable prices probably cheaper than it used to cost them to produce it in yesterday's dollars but the family the little family dairy farm is is in dire trouble but look at what's look at what's coming along for high quality organic farming look at what Pete's green is doing up in Hardwick and and many others around the sort of what I would call artisanal food is going very very well and heck we have more breweries than we have dairies now so the beer industry in Vermont is doing darn well I know I'd be remiss for some of our viewers if I didn't ask about hemp farming I like beer I've always like I'm not going there but if if I didn't ask about hemp farming hemp farming hemp is a valuable product we could be making money with hemp you don't smoke hemp it doesn't get you high it's just a very close cousin to the marijuana plant marijuana is a kind of hemp but it's a specific kind agricultural hemp they make ropes out of it do you see that as being a valuable part of the mixture of agriculture and you bet I think I think our our soil and our climate is pretty ideal for growing large quantities of hemp it's a very easy product to grow as I understand and it's an easy product to sell with a very good market to sell into and we could be making a lot of money on hemp but that's the blindness of our federal government and their regulations that we're up against let's talk about the cousin uh you were a close cousin the close cousin the marijuana what was your feeling on the legislation that passed were you disappointed that it didn't go further would do you feel that the caution is necessary and do you also feel that this might be a revenue generator if we were trying we were trying hard in the last couple of years to not talk about it as a money making enterprise we didn't want to say we're going to do it because we can make money we were wanting to do it because we thought it was the right thing to do and we were the very first state to pass it through the legislative process without a court order to do it or through an initiative or through a public and I'm and I'm very glad we're not an initiative state why are you happy we're not an initiative state because I'm going to return back to marijuana okay because that reduces questions down to the 30 second soundbite on television and doesn't truly inform voters about the issue they they just hear a soundbite on television or see an ad in the paper that's very one-sided and issues just aren't well decided I think California has so many initiatives that have just not proven to be good for that state what about the flip side referendum in terms of finally settling questions uh for instance the gun question that would be a referendum and those people on both sides the issue would finally know this is where Vermonter stand vis-a-vis the bump stocks the the number of bullets vis-a-vis the background checks well I think I think we come very close to that I I see or is this election a referendum on that well it may well be for Governor Scott I'm not sure I know that he upset a lot of people when he signed those three relatively minor I mean the changes that we were made we banned bump stocks and now they have a program to voluntarily what makes universal background near universal background checks relatively minor that sounds at least to this this person fairly significant well it may be more significant in some people's eyes than in others but we have look what we have to do to get a driver's license are you suggesting having gun owners drive 500 miles with their parents no I I I would say a much bigger issue would be if they had to pass some sort of a safety regulation isn't there a safety test for involved in that in some aspects of it for kids yes yeah there is for for juniors but basically any any adult can just go get a hunting license and they go out and buy any kind of gun they want oh too many kinds of guns how would do you see that as kind of a past settled precedent in this state for a while that or do you think the gun issue will be revisited again I think the gun issue is going to be revisited in every state for quite some time but I think the changes I mind you I know that Vermont has some of the most liberal gun laws of any state in the union and we have a carry yeah an open carry yeah yeah you can walk into any bank with two six shooters on your hip loaded up as long as you don't pull them out and start threatening it's okay or any pet store or any pet store but so we have very liberal gun laws but we also have very very low gun related crime so it it's not a stretch to say we're doing okay we don't need more but that changed to a small degree this past year and I certainly favored those I thought they were reasonable especially after that massacre in Las Vegas that was bump stocks all the way I mean there's no valid need for a bump stock in hunting there's no valid gun sport that yeah we've collected now that brings us into implementation yet we've collected what two to four bump stocks before it took effect in early October can you actually since they since they passed and implemented this voluntary right turning in to to it's to actually say that this law is enforceable as well as grandfathering in yeah I don't know that it really is enforceable I don't know but but the courts will rule on that I imagine oh let's go back to marijuana how do you see a lot of people say you're allowed to grow a certain number of adults a certain number of non-adult plants you're allowed to have up to two ounces of or whatever of marijuana but you can't buy it that just seems to a lot of people to just be partially pregnant you're allowed to grow these plants but you're not allowed to buy the seeds right so what do you go to Massachusetts to buy the seeds right so what do you see as the next step in this and when do you think the next step will take place I think it is it is absolutely certain that a proposal to regulate the market and allow the sale will be introduced this winter whether it succeeds I'm not at all able to predict I'm not a very good prognosticator by the way do you believe that the school budget that the budget for education will realistically be addressed sooner in the legislature in a realistic manner than just the last week or having proposals coming at the beginning that just clearly don't have much support well let me say that 10 or 11 years after Karen died I remarried and I am now married to a retired school a retired school teacher so I am viewing education from a very different perspective than I did in prior life although the one constant in my view is that teachers have never been appreciated in this country to the degree to the degree that they should be we are entrusting our children to teachers for 13 years and in in Europe teachers sit high on a pedestal I believe it's 14 years don't we have mandatory pre kindergarten well you're right we have mandatory pre gate and also it doesn't just start a kindergarten but in most European countries teachers are held on a much higher standard than here I feel that same way about first responders and firemen and police who risk their lives on a daily basis you send a fireman into a burning warehouse and god only knows what what can the legislature do about that besides raising teacher salaries what else can the legislature really do well the legislature can mandate higher salaries which would which would attract even better teachers than what we currently have we have some really great ones but many of our really good teachers tend not to stay that long because they can get a better job somewhere else a statewide health contract what was your feeling over teachers yes I absolutely am opposed to that why because we have local school boards and if you take health care off the table that leaves them relatively little other than wages to negotiate for it would be fair in one way in that when you when when teachers in a local community a small community come to the school board asking for their small local all volunteer not really expert well intentioned good people but not expert in education law or a lot of what's in the background the national education association vermont chapter brings expert negotiators to the table and I've always viewed that as virtually like taking candy from a baby it's very hard for the local school board to put up a fair fight against these seasoned pros who do this all the time that's the best argument I can come up with in favor of a statewide teachers contract because it would put pros on both sides of the table in that or there might be some cost savings available in larger bulk there might be insurance works best when you have a larger a larger pool yeah but we're not we're not a homogeneous uniform everything's the same all over vermont I think we have way too many small school districts we have more school districts than we have towns act 46 successful or not successful partial now act 46 for those of you is the consolidation act the required consolidation yeah well I favored that because I favor reduction in the number of school districts that we have we really should consolidate to have to have more school districts than you have towns is just plain silly I don't want one statewide school board but realistically if we had as many school boards as we had counties it would be okay in my mind I have to say I'm not an education expert that is not my area of expertise so you married into it I'm married into it oh yeah believe me I get my marching orders at the dinner table now you're getting your marching orders at the dinner table is where I am going to close this show now we've revealed the state secret here that warren kids miller gets his marching orders at the dinner table I'm not the only married man in this in the legislature thank you so very much for Richard this is this has really been fun and I hope that you the viewer will watch all of the other ones because all of them are really good and what's more important talk to your friends talk to your neighbors and get out and vote vote absolutely vote make your voice heard and these are an excellent set of candidates to choose from an excellent set of issues to consider yeah but please engage yourself in the civic process and vote on election day thank you so very much and vote for me I am not going that far you're not going that far but I am my pillow your civic form thank you or thank you thank you Richard this was fun